UPSB v3

Pen Modifications / Renaming "Double-" and "Single-"capped to Symmetrical/Asymmetrical

  1. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 20:56:52

    Single- and Doublecapped modifications don't really make sense anymore, since pens like the RSVP MSXA use two caps but still get called "Singlecapped". The naming "Single/Doublesided" makes no sense to me either, seeing how every pen should have two sides to it? At least if you define side the way I do.

    Instead, we call them symmetrical and asymmetrical pens, as that is what they are. Dr KT, ComSsa and Ballsign are all symmetrical pens (or close to, the ComSsa and Ballsign bodies are slightly different in diameter from side to side, and all of them look different underneath the caps), as they give the expression to be the same on both sides, and usually also have inserts/outserts with mirrored looks. The MX, Lakubo Jell Mod, GJH are asymmetrical pens, as they have been designed to have two different looking sides, and often also use inserts that has a graphic that changes from side to side.


    Renaming... Done.

  2. -JC-
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 21:01:54

    ehh, i don't think it's worth the effort to bother doing that.....
    it's understandable the way it is, why make the effort to change -.-''

  3. thnikk
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 21:10:20

    i think it's a good idea huh.gif

  4. Owumaro
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 21:20:46

    That's strange because I've think about it few hours ago. I was thinking about familys of pens... Just, don't forgot to mention that the "symmetrical" doesn't include colors and maybe different grips on each side. smile.gif (people might think that because of different color, a mod isn't symmetrical)

    This idea solves the problem of vortex mods which can't be called "double capped" (like grip aviaire, G2 vortex or technica vx). smile.gif

  5. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 21:21:45

    I have already renamed them for myself. I do not know of such things as singlecapped, doublecapped, or singlesided modifications anymore. If you write about them, I will ask what you mean and point out that they should be called symmetrical, or asymmetrical modifications.

  6. Zombo
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 21:55:49

    interesting, I wonder if this is something the NC should take a look at?

  7. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 22:11:06

    Why? Everything is obvious already, and I am releasing this "article" now, though not as a part of the NC or RD but as an individual penspinner. I don't see why no one has brought this up earlier, I know I've thought about it a number of times but always forgotten to write something about it.

  8. Zombo
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 22:24:20

    well im not sure if you've considered all possiblities and NC can help you do that. NC can also help you establish standards better than being alone and correcting ppl all the time.

    one issue already brought up in this thread is color asymmetry, but what about cases where the appearance is symmetrical, but not the properties of the pen.

    to me single-cap mods are mods where spinning with an end or another is different, whereas its same for double-cap. It's not just an appearance problem.

    What if I were to double-cap a 3000*f, but not replace the back cap with another tip. Likewise for BICtory. It's easy to imagine a class of mod with symmetrical appearance but not symmetrical properties.

    what about mods that are double-capped, but the caps are not the same. under the old system its called Double-capped, under the new system its called ... symmetrical?

  9. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 22:36:41

    QUOTE
    what about mods that are double-capped, but the caps are not the same. under the old system its called Double-capped, under the new system its called ... symmetrical?
    Nope, say an MSXA is asymmetrical. Since they have different caps, and probably spin different depending on what side, they're asymmetrical.

    QUOTE
    to me single-cap mods are mods where spinning with an end or another is different
    Which is where things with the MSXA and the old system went wrong, seeing how it has two caps but still is an asymmetrical pen and spinning with it is different with one end or the other. It should in the "old system" be called single-capped, but yet it has two caps!

    You are right about the symmetry in the looks of the pens doesn't have to be the same as symmetry of the interior. I mentioned it in the main post, though didn't write about how it changes the pens spinning function (weight distribution, as with a bictory with only one tip).

    Color and looks in that manner don't really effect the spinning (unless certain colors give you a mental-boost) so we don't really need to consider that when it comes to symmetry and asymmetry of pens.

  10. Zombo
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 22:42:30

    well in that case what we really need is two different system: one for appearance, one for spinnability.

    the old system kinda gave you the idea of both. A double-capped pen was most likely to look symmetrical, and most likely to spin the same on both ends, vice versa for single-capped pen

    describing only symmetry without specfying for what is incomplete.

  11. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 23:08:45

    Still though, a symmetrical pen is most likely to look symmetrical, and most likely to spin the same on both ends, vice versa for asymmetrical pens. The only difference is that now exceptions are harder. Before we had the MSXA having two caps, being called single-capped, and wasn't the same to spin on both ends. With symmetrical/asymmetrical, I really can't think of any pens that go through any loopholes. Symmetrical pens are created for their symmetry, I can't really think that anyone would create a ComSsa like mod that has an interior that makes it different to spin depending on what end. That's what asymmetrical pens like the Lakubo Jell Mod are made for though. Giving a pen a cap on one side and a tip on the other automatically makes it asymmetrical even if its weight distribution would be the exact same on both ends, seeing how performing tricks (not least Infinity) still would be different depending on the end.

    So, the only exception from the symmetrical and asymmetrical pens would be a pen that looks as if it is symmetrical, but has an interior (like a tip inside one of the caps, for example) that makes it asymmetrical to spin.

  12. Awesome
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 23:12:50

    I didn't realize an individual spinner could just change a naming convention because he thinks its better.

    Anyway, I like Sfsrs idea it doesn't have weird exceptions built into it, it calls the pens what they are more accurately then the old way.

  13. Zombo
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 23:16:41

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 6 2008, 07:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Still though, a symmetrical pen is most likely to look symmetrical, and most likely to spin the same on both ends, vice versa for asymmetrical pens.


    well if that's the case, there isn't much progress made in switching to symmetrical notation. I think in fact we lose some clarity because, it's unclear whether symmetry refers to spinability or appearance. Double-capped is very clear in that if you see a cap at each end of the pen, it's double capped.

    If you're gonna reform a convention, try to fix all the issues with it. This does not solve this ambiguity.

  14. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 23:27:54

    QUOTE (Awesome @ Sep 7 2008, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I didn't realize an individual spinner could just change a naming convention because he thinks its better.

    Any individual spinner can do anything, it's just about the community accepting it or not. The community is more likely to accept something written by a respected spinner, and even more likely to accept it if a complete committee or department backs it up.

    QUOTE (Zombo @ Sep 7 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    well if that's the case, there isn't much progress made in switching to symmetrical notation. I think in fact we lose some clarity because, it's unclear whether symmetry refers to spinability or appearance. Double-capped is very clear in that if you see a cap at each end of the pen, it's double capped.

    If you're gonna reform a convention, try to fix all the issues with it. This does not solve this ambiguity.

    The only exception we have with this way is one that no one uses so far. Is it not also unclear if single-capped refers to spinability or appearance? You wrote yourself that you think of single-capped mods as mods where spinning with an end or another is different, while the name of it (single-capped) is clearly about a pens appearance! If someone would write about a "double-capped mod" people would definitely think he was talking about a pen where spinning with either end is the same (which is not the case, with pens as the MSXA), while this often does not have to be the case.

    Well, make it this way then: symmetrical/asymmetrical only describes the spinability of a pen, but as it in all known cases is the same as the appearance of the modification, no extra note about that is needed(, unless it breaks this convention (ex. if you have an asymmetrical pen that looks as if it would be symmetrical)).

  15. Xero
    Date: Sat, Sep 6 2008 23:30:34

    I'm sure you can say my comssa is "symmetrically built" but not "symmetrically designed".
    Referring to the fact that the grippings may not be the same.

  16. Santa
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 03:43:25

    good point. But it's like changing people to say "Puffs" instead of saying "Kleenex". Kleenex is the term everyone is used to.

  17. Zombo
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 05:28:13

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 6 2008, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    The only exception we have with this way is one that no one uses so far. Is it not also unclear if single-capped refers to spinability or appearance?


    I never said single/double cap is less confusing. All I'm saying is, if you're gonna change it, then change it properly so we don't have to change it again later. However, if you take the meaning of the word literally, it means 2 caps, which means look for any mod with two caps. There's no ambiguity here. If you say symmetrical, it doesn't tell you symmetrical in what respect.

    QUOTE
    Well, make it this way then: symmetrical/asymmetrical only describes the spinability of a pen, but as it in all known cases is the same as the appearance of the modification, no extra note about that is needed(, unless it breaks this convention (ex. if you have an asymmetrical pen that looks as if it would be symmetrical)).


    well now you're adding a lot of extra assumptions, this is no longer "obvious". A formal release is required.

  18. iMatt
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 05:56:48

    I have to say I think it causes more confusion than it does progress.

    If you think about the trick naming system. It made it almost near perfect to describe any trick.

    Doing this, WHY???!!?? there is no point to having symmetrical/Asymmetrical. What good does that accomplish.

    Double sided mod...means it has TWO caps...no more needs to be said

    Single Sided means, it has a SINGLE cap...nothing else needs to be added

    There's a point where "specifics" are FAR too over analyzed. this one of those cases.

  19. Kam
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 06:12:39

    well, I may be outdated, but I've always called them one-sided or two-sided.

    Sure...every pen has two sides, but if you talk to a non-spinner, they are more likely to understand that than symmetrical/asymmetrical. It also sound a little too nerdy...sry tongue.gif

    For me...two sided simply implies that the pen has to sides that look similar...then double capped would fall under two sided, to imply that both sides have a cap.

    About the point of the inside being different...what I believe matters the most to spinners is the weight. So why not just say they are balanced on unbalanced (if one side is heavier than the other, regardless of whether it's a single sided or two sided pen).

    just my two cents,

  20. -JC-
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 06:17:33

    QUOTE (Kam @ Sep 7 2008, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    About the point of the inside being different...what I believe matters the most to spinners is the weight. So why not just say they are balanced on unbalanced (if one side is heavier than the other, regardless of whether it's a single sided or two sided pen).

    just my two cents,

    NUU!, i really wouldn't spin a double sided pen as much as i would a single sided pen even if the double sided pen was muchh more balanced than the single sided one
    mx > kt wink.gif
    when someone recommends me a mod... i would always ask for a pic/if it's single or double sided first--- and THEN ask for the other information like weight and balance

  21. Zombo
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 15:13:33

    QUOTE (Kam @ Sep 7 2008, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    About the point of the inside being different...what I believe matters the most to spinners is the weight. So why not just say they are balanced on unbalanced (if one side is heavier than the other, regardless of whether it's a single sided or two sided pen).



    balanced means the COP is in the center. As simple as that. Clearly this does not describe each end having different property, such as grip and spinnability for infinities.

  22. WhiteFang
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 15:42:46

    i always thought that:
    single sided pen - pen with exposed tip on one end and a cap/anything else on the other side eg. mx msxa etc.

    double sided pens - mods with 2 caps that are same on each side. eg. comssa, ballsign, KT

    I don't really like the name 'symmetrical.' i think someone mentioned this but if there is a different number of grips on comssa, it wouldn't really be 'symmetrical'

  23. Sfsr
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 20:11:12

    QUOTE (Owumaro @ Sep 6 2008, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    This idea solves the problem of vortex mods which can't be called "double capped" (like grip aviaire, G2 vortex or technica vx). :)

    I want everyone to re-read the post above, and consider the fact that single- and doublecapped makes no sense when it comes to pens like the MSXA, cause it doesn't give us any useful information about the pen or its spinability. Neither does it make sense for pens like the Playcolor2 Mod, since it uses 4 caps.


    QUOTE (Zombo @ Sep 7 2008, 07:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    However, if you take the meaning of the word literally, it means 2 caps, which means look for any mod with two caps.
    Exactly, but are you supposed to take the meaning of the world literally? You said yourself that you don't, and a lot of people don't either, so the naming makes no sense anymore. If the pen has 1, 2 or even more caps is actually completely uninteresting. What we want to know is if it spins the same on both ends, and how many caps it has does not tell us this.


    QUOTE (iMatt @ Sep 7 2008, 07:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Doing this, WHY???!!?? there is no point to having symmetrical/Asymmetrical. What good does that accomplish.

    Double sided mod...means it has TWO caps...no more needs to be said

    Single Sided means, it has a SINGLE cap...nothing else needs to be added

    There's a point where "specifics" are FAR too over analyzed. this one of those cases.

    As I wrote in response to Zombo's post; how many caps a pen has is completely uninteresting to a penspinner. If that is what you want to state about a pen, then you can write "single-capped", or "double-capped". But if you actually want to include the information people want to know, then writing if it's symmetrical or asymmetrical would be better. I don't quite understand the last sentence, first you complain about this not covering anything, and then you say this is FAR too over analyzed?


    Kam calling me nerdy, eh? See how far penspinning's gone :P


    WhiteFang is the one making most sense in this thread so far (except me :D)


    Symmetrical = a modification that is symmetrical in all aspects
    Asymmetrical = a modification that is not symmetrical in all aspects

    Covers everything we want to know, leaves no exceptions. Actually refers to how the pens are, instead of having names that don't cover their own literary meaning.

  24. Zombo
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 20:35:29

    this naming still leaves holes that were there before because spinnability and apperance should be seperated, you can't describe both at the same time with one word unless you start making categories in between.

  25. Sfsr
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 20:40:07

    A pen that has asymmetrical appearance is always asymmetrical to spin. A pen that is symmetrical to spin always has a symmetrical appearance.

  26. Zombo
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 20:45:27

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 7 2008, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    A pen that has asymmetrical appearance is always asymmetrical to spin. A pen that is symmetrical to spin always has a symmetrical appearance.


    so what,

    this is not an "if-and-only-if".

    you claim:

    1) a pen is asymmetrical in apperance > asymmetrical to spin. (which is not true if color is considered btw)
    2) a pen is symmetrical to spin > symmetrical apperance. (same)

    now show me:

    3) a pen that is asymmetrical to spin -> has asymmetrical appearance. (not true, because the internal system of the pen can be hidden by apperance)
    4) a pen that has symmetrical apperance -> is symmetrical to spin. (same)

    you're missing these two.

    only if you have all 4 you can use symmetrical/asymmetrical in a general context.

  27. TEK
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 20:53:31

    just talking about the msxa example

    yeah it uses 2 caps on each end
    but one cap isn't really used as a cap.
    more of an extension to make the mod longer for personal likings. gives you more options for customizing like
    colors or adding weight.
    its used for extension more than a cap. you dont need to use a cap, it just happens to be a cap.
    i dont see the msxa as a double sided for that reason
    for a normal double sided...if its pretty much the same use on both ends..look similar..then its double sided.

  28. Anascrash04
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 21:13:26

    QUOTE (TEK @ Sep 8 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    just talking about the msxa example

    yeah it uses 2 caps on each end
    but one cap isn't really used as a cap.
    more of an extension to make the mod longer for personal likings. gives you more options for customizing like
    colors or adding weight.
    its used for extension more than a cap. you dont need to use a cap, it just happens to be a cap.
    i dont see the msxa as a double sided for that reason
    for a normal double sided...if its pretty much the same use on both ends..look similar..then its double sided.


    a cap with a tip on it shouldnt be called a cap at all xD

  29. TEK
    Date: Sun, Sep 7 2008 21:15:21

    QUOTE (Anascrash04 @ Sep 7 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    a cap with a tip on it shouldnt be called a cap at all xD


    then what about metallic comssas or kts? o.O

  30. Fang
    Date: Mon, Sep 8 2008 02:39:12

    I've never really heard "double-capped" and "single-capped" used alot for formal termonology on pen mods huh(1).gif

    Isn't the system most people use now good enough?
    Single-sided - one side something on one side of the pen that makes it different from the other like tip on one side cap on other
    Double-sided - both sides of the mod are made to look the same way (color/grips excluded) such as comssas, KTs, ballsigns

    i personally find the Symmetrical/Asymmetrical just a redundancy of single/double sided just different naming....

  31. stevieboy7
    Date: Mon, Sep 8 2008 06:44:24

    QUOTE (TEK @ Sep 7 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    Spoiler:

    just talking about the msxa example

    yeah it uses 2 caps on each end
    but one cap isn't really used as a cap.
    more of an extension to make the mod longer for personal likings. gives you more options for customizing like
    colors or adding weight.
    its used for extension more than a cap. you dont need to use a cap, it just happens to be a cap.
    i dont see the msxa as a double sided for that reason
    for a normal double sided...if its pretty much the same use on both ends..look similar..then its double sided.

    Totally agreed.

    the only things that matter for naming single or double capped are the actual ends of the pen...
    whats in between are just the parts to make it.. which could include other caps/tips.
    symetrical/asymetrical has NOTHING to do but looks.. and a picture would explain better
    it could be weighted totally differently on each end but still be "symetrical"

    i think you're going too far into the details.
    im POSITIVE that everyone knows a singlecap mod versus a double cap mod.
    there wil ALWAYS be exceptions.. but thats just life, you always have the overlapping circles.
    there is no definative and easy way to seperate all pen mods into 2 categories.

  32. Sfsr
    Date: Mon, Sep 8 2008 16:29:30

    QUOTE (stevieboy7 @ Sep 8 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    the only things that matter for naming single or double capped are the actual ends of the pen...
    You agree with TEK ("but one cap isn't really used as a cap. more of an extension to make the mod longer for personal likings") yet you say that only the actual ends of the pen count. Well, on the MSXA there are caps on both ends.

    QUOTE (stevieboy7 @ Sep 8 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    symetrical/asymetrical has NOTHING to do but looks..
    ...and how the pen spins, which is actually all that matters...?

    QUOTE (stevieboy7 @ Sep 8 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    and a picture would explain better
    Pictures are always better (a picture is worth a thousand words, or how is it?), but it's not always a picture you're after. It's not always you want (or have time) to take a picture of a pen, transfer it to your computer, resize it, upload it, and post it up either.

    QUOTE (stevieboy7 @ Sep 8 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    it could be weighted totally differently on each end but still be "symetrical"
    Not if symmetrical refers to the spinability of the pen.

    QUOTE (stevieboy7 @ Sep 8 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    im POSITIVE that everyone knows a singlecap mod versus a double cap mod.
    Yet even Zombo sees "singlecapped" as a modification that's different to spin depending on what end, while the name clearly implies a pen with one cap (thus not an MSXA).

    QUOTE (stevieboy7 @ Sep 8 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    there is no definative and easy way to seperate all pen mods into 2 categories.
    Actually... I'm presenting one in this very thread ssst.gif


    Anyway, I'd prefer to see singlesided and doublesided used over -capped then, seeing how those names actually try to imply at pens being different to spin depending on what end, instead of the number of caps they have.

  33. K4S
    Date: Mon, Sep 8 2008 17:40:27

    QUOTE (Zombo @ Sep 7 2008, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    balanced means the COP is in the center.

    Muahaha, the center of the pen is in the center XD


    I've never focused much attention on it but im pretty sure i've always referred to mods as either "single sided" or "double sided" in terms of what Whitefang said. I hardly ever use the terms single capped or double capped since I've always had an unconscious conflict with that naming as Sfsr has brought up. Kam mentioned something about balance but for example an MX that has been changed so that it's perfectly balanced (COP = COG) does not spin symmetrically if i understand what Sfsr is saying.

    There are quite a few variables that classifying pen mods into 2 distinct categories is tricky. A double sided mod is generally assumed to be symmetrical in appearance and symmetrical with regards to how it spins...but lets say the mod is retractable. Now the double sided mod (still symmetrical in appearance) becomes asymmetrical internally which may change its spinnability to asymmetrical as well. On the flip side, getting a single sided mod (asymmetrical) will almost always spin asymmetrically as trying to get it to spin symmetrically is almost impossible because of external factors on the pen (eg. the cap adding extra thickness or a "bump" on one side only).

    There are flaws with the current naming as well as the new proposed naming...and since i suck at naming i will let the NC try and resolve this issue ._.

  34. Sfsr
    Date: Mon, Sep 8 2008 17:46:04

    Thanks for making sense K4S, unlike a lot of other people writing in this thread smile.gif

    The NC names and notates tricks and combos though, I don't think this is their business. It would be just the RD then, but I think public works just as good.

  35. Zombo
    Date: Mon, Sep 8 2008 18:45:56

    no.

    http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=136

    nowhere does it say that the NC is only concerned with trick convention.

    just because most/alll of their work so far is about tricks, doesn't mean they're only concerned with tricks.

    COP has always been defined as center of gravity to me since the Pentix days, but it might have been rectified somewher along the way, not sure.