UPSB v3
Naming Committee / [project][5.4] Definition Of A Trick
Project brainstorm, requests, discussion
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Date: Sat, Jun 16 2007 07:18:05
This seems fundamental, and is needed before we discuss some other topics.
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The way I see it, we have 7 'trick types'
1) The Around Spin
2) The Conic Spin
3)The Pass
4)The Top spin
5) The Roll
6)The Through spin
7) The Air Spin
I don't think one definition could be used to fit them all. So I am inclined to suggest the following...
Around spins/Top spins - A trick means a single push is used. If you use another push, it's a new trick, if however, you use the momentum to let the pen spin on or go around another digit, it's still one trick although use of the word transfer would have to be used.
The Roll - When the pen is on an uneven plane, and rolls due to gravity. If you change the way the pen is rolling, it's a new trick.
The Air Spin - Any trick in which the pen loses contact with the hand completely during the trick. Contacting the hand again would mean it's a new trick.
The Pass - When the pen touches another digit, other than the digits being used, it is a new trick.
The Conic spin --------? - I (at least for the moment) don't have any ideas for a The Through spin -----? - definition of these two.
I don't know if you agree with anything I've suggested. let's have a discussion...
List of topics attached to it:
Original Thread -
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2008 13:53:34
I suggest that definition of a trick :
A trick is a pen spinning move that starts with the pen at rest, ends with the pen at rest, and which uses only one "trick type", or only one mix of "trick types", during its pen-motion part.
This definition would mean that since a Pen Spinning move is linking two different trick types one after each other, it is no longer a trick, (and rather a combo or hybrid).
A problem of this definition is that, in a combo, your pen can't stay at rest between each trick if you want to keep your spinning fluent. So, let's adjust the statement :
A trick is a pen spinning move that CAN BE STARTED with the pen and hand at rest, AND ENDED with the pen and hand at rest, and which uses only one "trick type", or only one mix of "trick types", during its pen-motion part.
N.B. : in the case of a spinning involving other parts of the body or several pens, we gotta find a name to design both pens and body parts involved in the trick. The "elements", he "actors" or something like that...
N.B. 2 : another probleme is the case of combos using only one trick type. like Sonic Rise. How to explain that Sonic Rise is not a trick but a combo. We would have to precise that a trick can't be broken down into several tricks, and then it's all right. -
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2008 14:03:33
'A trick is a pen spinning move that CAN BE STARTED with the pen and hand at rest, AND ENDED with the pen and hand at rest, and which uses only one "trick type", or only one mix of "trick types", during its pen-motion part.' A trick cannot be further broken down without use of hybrid notation.
Seems to fit? -
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2008 14:28:29
A trick is a single unit of motion that cannot be broken down into constituent parts.
If you really wanted to go all out, I suggest we devise a way to "divide" hybrids from tricks, or just plain trick division. Similar to how you can find prime numbers, we would need a proof of how to define "tricks". -
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2008 14:31:20
Yes, fits well to me
. Ah, that means an hybrid could be both a trick or not, depending on if it uses several consecutive "trick types" or not...Apart from this little problem, it sounds good to me.
EDIT : @Eso : {Tricks} included into {hybrids} and the distinctive sign for a trick is that it uses only one trick motion type AND can be ended/started at rest AND can't be broken into tricks -
Date: Wed, Jul 2 2008 14:07:59
Skatox, Shadows and Fingerspins are some tricks that contain more than one Trick Type: Shadow consists of Conic and Topspin types and Fingerspins usually consist of Around and Topspin types. If Shadows and Fingerspins are no longer tricks, but hybrids, then I think it would be safe for us to say that a trick consists of only one Trick Type. In no way does that definition differentiate from certain hybrids, however, such as Double Thumbaround, which consists of only the Around Trick type.
Eso, for example, Sonic 23-12 can be divided into Sonic 0.5 23-13 ~ Sonic 0.5 13-12. Your definition implies that Sonic 23-12 is no longer a trick and that Sonic 0.5 23-13 and Sonic 0.5 13-12 are separate tricks, unless the Sonic 0.5s can be further divided into .25s or some other number. -
Date: Wed, Jul 2 2008 15:21:09
A trick is made up of one trick type, one push and one catch.
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Date: Thu, Jul 3 2008 14:45:56
If we were to keep strict to Mats' definition, we would have to re-define Shadows, Neobackarounds, Backarounds 1.5+ and any other topspin tricks that currently have a set push/catch that use another trick type along with the top spin. More like Thumbspin and the other finger spin tricks, that do not need a definite push/catch. Shadow would have to change to a top spin that just spins on the fingernail-side of the finger. They would all have be defined as hybrids.
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Date: Thu, Jul 3 2008 15:54:24
So we then have:
Tricks - The basic building blocks of pen spinning that cannot be further broken down.
Hybrids - A move built up from more than one trick, with some tricks (at least one) in the hybrid being interrupted (incomplete).
Combo - Made up of one or more complete hybrids and/or tricks.
That seems pretty simple and to make sense? -
Date: Wed, Jul 9 2008 16:29:39
That tricks cannot be further broken down is incorrect. They are constantly being broken down in hybrid notation.
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Date: Wed, Jul 9 2008 17:23:13QUOTE (thig @ Jul 9 2008, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That tricks cannot be further broken down is incorrect. They are constantly being broken down in hybrid notation.
??
if they're being being broken down in hybrid it means they're either hybrids or combos.
PS: TWisted sonic is a hybrid. -
Date: Wed, Jul 9 2008 20:39:00QUOTE (thig @ Jul 9 2008, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That tricks cannot be further broken down is incorrect. They are constantly being broken down in hybrid notation.
But hybrids can't be broken into distinct tricks. They have one push and one catch. As far as hybrids are concerned, we just don't have a better way to describe them than to analyze their parts in terms of tricks we already know.
Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it seems like we could just define a trick as a motion of the pen that begins with exactly one push, may or may not have a spin, and ends with exactly one catch. I think the phrase "can be started with the pen at rest" excludes certain tricks. For example, Indexaround Bust. In the 'Bust' section, only the index finger is touching the pen, but nothing is supporting the pen from the bottom, so that trick could not be started with the pen at rest. -
Date: Wed, Jul 9 2008 23:16:07
Sorry, I was a little vague.
For example, Demon's Sonic is a hybrid and may be broken down as Sonic 0.5 34-24 ~> Pass Rev 24-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12, for a total of 1.5 rotations. In this hybrid, we see incomplete parts of Sonic and of Charge. This suggests that these incomplete parts are constituents of Sonic or Charge. Sonic 1.0 23-12 may actually just be a combination of Sonic 0.5 23-13 -> Sonic 0.5 13-12.
grsbmd, Charge and Sonic are two tricks that have at least two pushes. Charge 12 1.0 requires pushes from both the index and middle fingers. Sonic 23-12 1.0 has at least one push during its 23-13 sequence and has at least another push during its 13-12 sequence. -
Date: Wed, Jul 9 2008 23:49:08QUOTE (thig @ Jul 9 2008, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sorry, I was a little vague.
For example, Demon's Sonic is a hybrid and may be broken down as Sonic 0.5 34-24 ~> Pass 24-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12, for a total of 1.5 rotations. In this hybrid, we see incomplete parts of Sonic and of Charge. This suggests that these incomplete parts are constituents of Sonic or Charge. Sonic 1.0 23-12 may actually just be a combination of Sonic 0.5 23-13 -> Sonic 0.5 13-12.
grsbmd, Charge and Sonic are two tricks that have at least two pushes. Charge 12 1.0 requires pushes from both the index and middle fingers. Sonic 23-12 1.0 has at least one push during its 23-13 sequence and has at least another push during its 13-12 sequence.
but break down wise it makes no sense to call sonic 1.0 23-12 as Sonic 0.5 23-13 -> Sonic 0.5 13-12... that's the finest non-trivial description of it.
you could also say that charge 1.0 23-23 is charge 0.1 -> charge 0.1 -> charge 0.1 -> charge 0.1 etc... but it's useless to call it that way... anything could then be called into something smaller. -
Date: Thu, Jul 10 2008 00:19:25
i still really think that, if fingerswitching is considered a trick, the sonic is a hybrid
and the triangle pass is a combo -
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 00:27:42
I just think it's incorrect to say that a trick cannot be further broken down. I think it's more accurate to say that a trick cannot be further broken down into other tricks. Of course, if this is true, it is only a property of tricks, not a clear definition of tricks.
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Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 11:30:51QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 10 2008, 02:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i still really think that, if fingerswitching is considered a trick, the sonic is a hybrid
and the triangle pass is a combo
I think we can't admit that fingerswitching is a trick, for me it's rather a technique only, like pen-blocking or fingerrolling are, or like the fingerless moves are...At the most, it could be turned into a modifier, but I can't think of it as a trick...You can do a fingerswitch without any move of the pen, just by replacing a finger by another, so it would be dreadful to find a definition of a trick that contains fingerswitching.