UPSB v3
Naming Committee / [project][5.8] Addressing Small Issues
Project brainstorm, requests, discussion
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Date: Sat, Jun 16 2007 07:24:46
This thread can be used to discuss specific problems that come up in the "Questions and Problems for the NC" thread and random threads from the Advanced tricks section.
List of topics attached to it:- Mirrors
- Moonwalk Sonic
- Backaround Finger Notation
- "Korean" Variations
- Neobackaround Under Finger
- Renaming Multiple Backarounds
- P for Palm and B for Backhand VOTE
- Release/Riser definition VOTE
- Tipped Sonic
How do you name a NeoSonic 34, that goes around 123 instead of just 3. Is there a difference in naming and, if not, how does one tell them apart from a breakdown?
I think I had another... I'll try and find it.
How would one name a middle or ring bak that started in the slot above the finger its going around and ending in the finger below. Example: Midbak 12-23, started like a pinky bak, but caught normally. The reason I ask is because it needs 1.5 rotations, but a midbak 1.5 implies that it spun on the back of the hand .5 revolutions. Should we let people figure it out based on fingers (I can see problems and confusion resulting) or name it differently?
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Original Thread -
Date: Sat, Sep 29 2007 21:41:07QUOTE (sketching @ Jun 16 2007, 09:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>How would one name a middle or ring bak that started in the slot above the finger its going around and ending in the finger below. Example: Midbak 12-23, started like a pinky bak, but caught normally. The reason I ask is because it needs 1.5 rotations, but a midbak 1.5 implies that it spun on the back of the hand .5 revolutions. Should we let people figure it out based on fingers (I can see problems and confusion resulting) or name it differently?
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Original Thread
It's all about hybrids here...( I'm not sure I understand your reference to a pinky back-like move, but well ) As some already use, you can tackle the issue by naming the trick a midback 12-12 ~ pass 12-23. That doesn't solve the problem, actually, if you're to find a unique name for the whole thing, but that can be fairly used to mention it. Else, I guess it would deserve another approach...Like, try to do it with vertical hand, and you'll see a reverse around trick appear...For instance, "midback 12-23", when done vertical handed, is a kind of "middlearound reverse 1.5 12-23"...( not talking about weissian style, of course ). -
Date: Sun, Sep 30 2007 05:55:57
Yeah, the original thread was started before the Interrupted Trick Notation was published. I would that the questioned Midbak 1.5 12-23, that using a hybrid would be better.
For Backaround it could be:
Backaround 12-12 ~ Passaround Reverse 12-23
or
Backaround 12-12 ~ Middlearound Reverse 0.5 12-23
or something similar...
For "Korean Bak" it could be:
Fingerless Middlearound Reverse 12-12 ~ Passaround Reverse 12-23
or
Fingerless Middlearound Reverse 12-12 ~ Middlearound Reverse 0.5 12-23
or something similar... -
Date: Mon, Oct 1 2007 05:12:00
Hey everybody...does the back of the hand have a notation similar to the finger notations (1=Index, 4=Pinky, etc...)?
I'm drawing a complete blank for it. It would make sense to have one for more detailed breakdowns. -
Date: Tue, Oct 2 2007 00:07:11
Well... no, I don't think that it does. But ow that you mention it... I have no idea why it doesn't. The front should probably get one as well. Perhaps B = Backhand and P = Palm?
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Date: Tue, Oct 2 2007 18:45:31
"P" for Palm and "B" for Back... It would be nice to officialize those ones...Especially the "P", which is already used informally...like in a counter neosonic, which I broke down before as neosonic 12-P1 > reverse neosonic P1-12 ...
therefore, "B" is less obvious, for the back can't be a proper place to catch or receipt the pen ( except if a spin on the back stops for physical reasons ). -
Date: Wed, Oct 3 2007 01:03:09
it would make sense because virtually every trick can be caught with the whole hand, which is just catching with the palm really.
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Date: Wed, Oct 3 2007 02:16:35
Back on the hand would be needed when specifying in detail things like Backriser > Backhand Bounce. Another member asked about that combo and I couldn't give a solid answer, which is why I asked about it here.
You could also do Neobaks that end on the back of the hand, I do that by accident sometimes. >_< -
Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 11:35:01
Opened a new topic with poll about the "P" and "B" discussion.
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=5326 -
Date: Tue, May 6 2008 10:39:25
This was brought up by Shadowservant and I think it can easily be resolved.
As of yet, there is no official word from the NC on 'riser' and 'release' and how they are to be used. It seems most FL push air tricks are 'risers' and finger pushed ones are 'releases'. Shall we just say that air tricks with FL pushes should always be called 'trick riser' and finger pushed ones always 'trick release'? -
Date: Tue, May 6 2008 14:59:29
I'm for it, that distinction makes enough sense without being overly complicated.
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Date: Tue, May 6 2008 16:06:55
Yep, i'm for it too. And by the way, now I finally understand what a back riser is, thanks Mats xD
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Date: Fri, May 9 2008 04:46:33
lol its shadowserpant.. but ok
but i wanted to add something, because i can think of three ways to do this and so i'd like to propose three names, splitting 'riser' into two. i'll use the thumbaround as the example.
Thumbaround Riser = The equivalent of what is currently known as the TA release. You throw the pen up while doing the TA motion to create the spin.
Thumbaround Rizer = The TA equivalent of a bakriser. A thumbaround is performed, then halfway through the trick, or even almost at the end with the pen rolling into the thumbflap, you jerk your hand up in a fingerless toss.
Thumbaround Release = The TA equivalent of a Leigun. Hold the pen in the TA position, but with your middle finger almost to the tip of the pen, and move your other fingers accordingly. Perform a TA, pressured or not, and the pen should fly away quickly like a leigun. If you don't get the positioning, just perform a TA, and then perform another one without repositioning your fingers, so the pen will just fly away.
What do you guys think? Another alternative would be replacing Rizer with FL Riser.
It's just that Mats' idea doesn't really adress what I consider the TA release, and I've thought of many similar situations with other tricks. -
Date: Fri, May 9 2008 13:51:03
way too confusing
people won't know if you made a typo mistake or really mean it
there's gotta be a better way to differentiate the two -
Date: Fri, May 9 2008 15:35:10QUOTEThumbaround Riser = The equivalent of what is currently known as the TA release. You throw the pen up while doing the TA motion to create the spin.That goes against the main aspect of the current "Riser" aerials that have the topspin + upwward hand motion. We would have to re-name all the other tricks. Bad idea. The riser makes sense being connected with the rising motion of the hand. We would have to rename tricks like Indexaround Release and Infinity Release to match.QUOTEThumbaround Rizer = The TA equivalent of a bakriser. A thumbaround is performed, then halfway through the trick, or even almost at the end with the pen rolling into the thumbflap, you jerk your hand up in a fingerless toss.This should be called Thumbaround Riser, unless we change the names of all the other "Risers" to "Rizers". Plus, "Rizer" is just not a good name to use, it looks bad. I suggest we keep Riser connected to what is already use for Riser tricks with the rising hand motion.QUOTEThumbaround Release = The TA equivalent of a Leigun. Hold the pen in the TA position, but with your middle finger almost to the tip of the pen, and move your other fingers accordingly. Perform a TA, pressured or not, and the pen should fly away quickly like a leigun. If you don't get the positioning, just perform a TA, and then perform another one without repositioning your fingers, so the pen will just fly away.It's just like the usual Leigun, but the front of the pen is resting on the ring finger with middle finger support instead of the middle finger with index finger support. I don't see why we can't just call this Leigun T23.
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Summary of what I am for:
- Riser tricks to have some kind of topspin + upward hand motion. Push > Top Spin > Fingerless Push > Air Spin > Catch.
- Release tricks to use a finger push directly into an air spin. Push > Air Spin > Catch.
- The Leigun-like trick Shadowserpant suggested seems to me to be a Leigun variation and can be labeled as such. -
Date: Fri, May 9 2008 16:03:38QUOTE (sketching @ May 9 2008, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>----
Summary of what I am for:
- Riser tricks to have some kind of topspin + upward hand motion. Push > Top Spin > Fingerless Push > Air Spin > Catch.
- Release tricks to use a finger push directly into an air spin. Push > Air Spin > Catch.
- The Leigun-like trick Shadowserpant suggested seems to me to be a Leigun variation and can be labeled as such.
Those definitions sound good to me Sketching.
Shall we put it to the vote?
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Date: Fri, May 9 2008 21:31:44
Sounds quite good to me except for the catches...Do the "risers" and "releases" include always the catch ? It owuld mean that you can't use the release or riser modifier if you catch the pen in a special way, or not ( like linked to another aerial, or whatever )...
Apart from this little detail, I like the distinctions between both terms...The idea of Shadowserpant to break riser into 2 categories is not that bad, and credits to him for introducing the issue
, but I wouldn't have based the difference on the topspin...Obviously for me, a riser needs a topsin anyway... And "Rizer" is definitely way too confusing, especially for non-english natives... -
Date: Fri, May 9 2008 22:10:57
I wasn't trying to pigeonhole these tricks into anything less than any other tricks. The catch portion was just to show a complete breakdown. The catch can be anywhere and anyhow, just like any other aerial trick.
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Date: Sat, May 10 2008 08:01:37
@Mats: I'm cool with it if you want to make a vote thread for this.
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Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 00:53:51
Inverses:
I have not seen this mentioned anywhere, apologies if I missed it.
The Inverse Thumbspin spins on the palm up side of the thumb. Would there also be Inverse Fingerspins during which the pen would spin on the palm up side of the fingers? Much in the same way an Inverse Shadow would, but on a specific finger?
Also, on the trick known as 'Arm Roll'. There should be a way to differentiate if the pen is rolling on the inside (palm up roll) or outside (palm down roll) of the arm. Should this be notated just by stating 'palm up' or 'palm down' roll, or should one of the rolls be an 'Inverse Arm Roll'?
I'm also curious as to why there isn't an inverse of the palmspin (a BackhandSpin?) listed on the trick list on the wiki. Does this trick not exist or is it under a different name?
-Fresh
...................
Always thinking...
...Usually about something thoroughly unavailing. -
Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 08:25:46QUOTE (Fresh @ Jun 14 2008, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Inverses:
I have not seen this mentioned anywhere, apologies if I missed it.
The Inverse Thumbspin spins on the palm up side of the thumb. Would there also be Inverse Fingerspins during which the pen would spin on the palm up side of the fingers? Much in the same way an Inverse Shadow would, but on a specific finger?
Also, on the trick known as 'Arm Roll'. There should be a way to differentiate if the pen is rolling on the inside (palm up roll) or outside (palm down roll) of the arm. Should this be notated just by stating 'palm up' or 'palm down' roll, or should one of the rolls be an 'Inverse Arm Roll'?
I'm also curious as to why there isn't an inverse of the palmspin (a BackhandSpin?) listed on the trick list on the wiki. Does this trick not exist or is it under a different name?
-Fresh
...................
Always thinking...
...Usually about something thoroughly unavailing.
Interesting...hem...First for the ArmRoll : it would be sucky to talk about "palm up" or "palm down" when you talk about an arm trick, where even the hand is not really involved. You can also roll your pen on your arm sides, so you have 4 ways to do the ArmRoll withour further notation...I don't think it would be necessary to make a difference in the naming ( your pen can also roll along oyur arm and slide around it, like at the start your on the "palm" side and at th end on the "back" side..it's hard but not impossible )
Then for the Inverse Palmspin, I guess Backspin is the most efficient name, the only problem is it is currently used to design a kind of backaround with extended spin on the back ( and not officially if I remember well ). If we could use this term to design just the spin, and not the backaround with additional spins, then it would be fine and would be the equivalent of an Inverse Palmspin...
For the Inverse fingerspins, I can't imagine that without starting from a different fingerslot from usual. If you can do Middlespin 23-12 2.0 ,
I can't see how to do Inverse Middlespin 23-12 2.0 . But Inverse Middlespin 12-23 2.0 might be feasable. -
Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 13:30:22
yes there are many inverse fingerspins.
if you think about it, my multiple fingerspins (zombo variation) spin on the palm-up tip of finger, there it might be a inverse fingerspin.
likewise basketball spin uses inverse spin -
Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 08:12:16QUOTE (Zombo @ Jun 14 2008, 09:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>yes there are many inverse fingerspins.
if you think about it, my multiple fingerspins (zombo variation) spin on the palm-up tip of finger, there it might be a inverse fingerspin.
likewise basketball spin uses inverse spin
Is there as yet no clear definition of what exactly an inverse fingerspin entails? Perhaps the 'fingerspin' could be spinning on top of the finger, 'inverse fingerspin' could spin on the palm-up side of the finger, 'Basketball Spin' could refer to a fingerspin on the tip of the finger and a fourth spin type could refer to a fingerspin on the side of the finger (the place on which the pen would spin on the index finger during for instance, a ThumbIndexspin). Sidespin perhaps? -
Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 08:17:25
Sidespin is an existing name, it's the trick that let's the pen spin .5 on the side of the index (or any other finger) like this -> http://youtube.com/watch?v=LMZ1mNYADTU
I don't see why a name as Fingerspin would be needed, it would just be used to write down what Shadows are. In my opinion, just writing down Shadow resp. Inv Shadow is enough. -
Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 08:22:42QUOTE (Sfsr @ Jun 15 2008, 03:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sidespin is an existing name, it's the trick that let's the pen spin .5 on the side of the index (or any other finger) like this -> http://youtube.com/watch?v=LMZ1mNYADTU
The name is already in use, I see. You say 0.5 rotations, however, one could simply add 'Sidespin 1.5' or something like that and it covers any number of rotations.QUOTEI don't see why a name as Fingerspin would be needed, it would just be used to write down what Shadows are. In my opinion, just writing down Shadow resp. Inv Shadow is enough.
I just feel that Shadow is very unspecific. . . If one is to perform an Middlespin 2.5 23 - 12, that is, a trick in which the pen is spinning only on the middle finger for two and half rotations one should describe it as being such. If one names this trick Shadow 2.5 23-12, there is no suggestion of where it is spinning. Most people will simply close the fingers up and allow the pen to spin in any-which-way to complete the spin. Obviously the Middlespin shows a greater degree of control and technical ability than does the shadow and so I think there should be a way to distinguish between the two.
The same applies for an Inverse Middlespin vs Inverse Shadow. -
Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 18:26:03
well, say instead of just inverse shadow 12-12 or whatever, it could be an inverse shadow 12-2-12?
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Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 18:51:53QUOTE (Fresh @ Jun 15 2008, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I just feel that Shadow is very unspecific. . . If one is to perform an Middlespin 2.5 23 - 12, that is, a trick in which the pen is spinning only on the middle finger for two and half rotations one should describe it as being such. If one names this trick Shadow 2.5 23-12, there is no suggestion of where it is spinning. Most people will simply close the fingers up and allow the pen to spin in any-which-way to complete the spin. Obviously the Middlespin shows a greater degree of control and technical ability than does the shadow and so I think there should be a way to distinguish between the two.
The same applies for an Inverse Middlespin vs Inverse Shadow.
Middlespin only describes the spin type. It does not tell you how it began and how it will end. The Shadow clearly defines the beginning and end, and the middle is logically only the spin, so using the term "Shadow" is sufficient; "Middlespin" is not.
I strongly suggest avoid using finger spin because of that very reason. Why use an entirely new name when you could simply add a new notation for where it spins on the hand?
In fact, the real question is, do we really care where it spins? Previously, Shadow never notated where it spins and it's possible to have the pen spinning on top of 2 while doing Shadow 12-12.
I don't think just because your example of Shadow 2.5 23-12 is ambiguous of where it could spin, that means it has a lesser degree of control. -
Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 19:03:58
yea.. i dont think shadows on individual fingers are important enough to differentiate
the only time it would really matter is if you had some insane spins on one finger, in which case you could present it through interupted trick notation -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 15:51:02
Perhaps this issue has already been addressed, however, I noticed the issue arose in the thread entitled 'What am I doing?'.
The issue is, a 'Neosonic' is actually just a fingeraround (reverse). Is Neosonic actually required anymore or can the name be depreciated? The Neosonic is really just a 'special case' of a fingeraround reverse that ends in T1 and so the name seems unnecassary.
I will try to find some videos of what I mean when I speak of the difference between a Shadow and a fingerspin. -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 18:11:08QUOTE (Fresh @ Jun 16 2008, 08:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Perhaps this issue has already been addressed, however, I noticed the issue arose in the thread entitled 'What am I doing?'.
The issue is, a 'Neosonic' is actually just a fingeraround (reverse). Is Neosonic actually required anymore or can the name be depreciated? The Neosonic is really just a 'special case' of a fingeraround reverse that ends in T1 and so the name seems unnecassary.
I will try to find some videos of what I mean when I speak of the difference between a Shadow and a fingerspin.
there was an article already released. neosonic = passaround = around 0.5 -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 22:44:16QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jun 16 2008, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>there was an article already released. neosonic = passaround = around 0.5
If one is refering to this article, then one is mistaken - There is no mention of depreciating the name 'Neosonic'. The article only mentions using 'fingeraround 0.5' in place of 'Passaround'. In fact, the article uses 'Neosonic' within the example combos. Perhaps the article can be expanded? -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 05:38:37
At present time, NeoSonic is a Fingeraround Reverse 0.5 that starts below the object finger, travels over the object finger, and ends in the thumbflap.
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Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 05:44:09
right, i guess we havn't abolished neosonics, i don't see why not though. So you can still use neosonics, but a neosonic still = reverse around 0.5
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Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 05:55:08
Middlearound 0.5 23-12 would not equal NeoSonic 23, since it does not end in the thumbflap.
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Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 06:06:27
well that's why i didn't put slots there. changing slots doesn't change the trick, does it?
if neosonic = middlearound rev 0.5 23-T1, then effectively, neosonic = middlearound rev 0.5, right? -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 06:17:32
Actually, it's more like Fingeraround Reverse 0.75 - 1.0 depending on the starting and ending position.
Anyway, deprecating Neosonic is fine with me.
It may be a hard sell, like getting people to stop using Gunman for Neosonic 12. >___< People still want to use that name.
Middlearound Reverse 0.75 23 12-T1 ~> Fingerless Thumbaround Reverse is easy enough for me to see. -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 06:22:44
yes but... you're you
lol
idk about that 0.75 stuff... i figure that's attributed to the shape of your hand and shouldn't be counted, but w/e
and wtf is a gunman.. -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 06:27:48
Gunman is officially (as far as I know) the Japanese name for Indexaround Reverse 12-12. Back in UPSBv2 is was wrongly attributed to Neosonic 12-T1 due to mistranslation from Hideaki Kondoh's website. >_<
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Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 09:51:06QUOTE (sketching @ Jun 17 2008, 02:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Actually, it's more like Fingeraround Reverse 0.75 - 1.0 depending on the starting and ending position.
Anyway, deprecating Neosonic is fine with me. It may be a hard sell, like getting people to stop using Gunman for Neosonic 12. >___< People still want to use that name.
Middlearound Reverse 0.75 23 12-T1 ~> Fingerless Thumbaround Reverse is easy enough for me to see.
Shall the possible depreciation be put to a vote? It seems sensible to reduce the number of names in use to a minimum while encouraging use of interrupted trick notation to a maximum. That way, by learning just the simple rules of the notation, virtually all tricks can be described. This seems much better than learning many names for tricks, names which, do not describe the trick as well as the trick notation does. -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 14:50:49
yea i'd vote it out, but i'm still unsure about that 0.75 thing
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Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 16:10:00QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jun 17 2008, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>yea i'd vote it out, but i'm still unsure about that 0.75 thing
Perform a Neosonic. Take note of the starting and finishing positions. The pen begins perpendicular to the fingers. When the trick is over, the pen is not quite horizonal as it was when the trick began, but pointing slightly upwards. Therefore, it cannot have completed a full rotation during the trick. This is where the 0.75 comes from... -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 16:13:41
0.75 is very difficult to assess.
for instance, thumbaround in the context of TA harmonic is more like 300-ish degrees -
Date: Tue, Jun 24 2008 05:43:26
Tipped Sonic discussion moved into its own topic thread for further discussion.
Edit: someone else brought up the idea of merging this thread with General NC Brainstorm (I'm just not seeing the post right now >_<). I agree that it would be a good idea. A bit of re-organizing of the threads would be needed, but the two topics are pretty close to the same thing these days. -
Date: Wed, Jun 25 2008 14:27:23
Halftap and Fulltap are treated as different tricks but they are actually the same with different numbers of rotations.
I suggest we rename to 'Tap x' where x is the number of spins. That way they are treated as the same trick and also taps above 1 rotation are covered too. -
Date: Fri, Jun 27 2008 09:43:32
From the "List of NC projects" thread:
QUOTE (sketching @ Jun 15 2007, 01:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Possible future topics:- Definition of 'style'
- Redefine the Half Tap, Full Tap and Fake Reverse as tricks of the Spin family.
- Scissor spin, done at the base of the fingers, or at the tips? 1 rotation, .5 rotation, both?
- Naming the tipped sonics.
- Naming the spider spin variations.
- Neobackaround, 1 rotation, 1.5 rotations, both?
- Breaking down triangle pass and backhand tracer.
- A fundamental for each spin type?
"Redefine the Half Tap, Full Tap and Fake Reverse as tricks of the Spin family."
Hasn't this been made clear already? I haven't followed this discussion closely but I agree that they should all just be called "Tap" with the number of spins and slot included, just like any other trick, instead of having the number of spins as a part of the name.
"Scissor spin, done at the base of the fingers, or at the tips? 1 rotation, .5 rotation, both?"
I believe this was made clear by David in my thread, it's performed at the base of the fingers (otherwise it would just be a Side Spin), the push has to be with the characteristic scissor motion and it can have any number of rotations.
"Naming the tipped sonics."
Busy with now? Should be a part of the Fingerswitching discussion imo, since I see Tipped Sonic as one of those tricks.
"Neobackaround, 1 rotation, 1.5 rotations, both?"
I don't really understand this. Is it meant as a NeoBak from a NBF, or just a loose one?
"A fundamental for each spin type?"
Good for standardizing penspinning and making it more organized, but is it possible? Can anyone comment on this? -
Date: Fri, Jun 27 2008 11:10:43QUOTE (Sfsr @ Jun 27 2008, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>From the "List of NC projects" thread:
"Redefine the Half Tap, Full Tap and Fake Reverse as tricks of the Spin family."
Hasn't this been made clear already? I haven't followed this discussion closely but I agree that they should all just be called "Tap" with the number of spins and slot included, just like any other trick, instead of having the number of spins as a part of the name.
Yeah this one seems really simple, shall we put it to a vote?QUOTE"Scissor spin, done at the base of the fingers, or at the tips? 1 rotation, .5 rotation, both?"
I believe this was made clear by David in my thread, it's performed at the base of the fingers (otherwise it would just be a Side Spin), the push has to be with the characteristic scissor motion and it can have any number of rotations.
Again, this one seems simple and I agree with your comments Sfsr.QUOTE"Naming the tipped sonics."
Busy with now? Should be a part of the Fingerswitching discussion imo, since I see Tipped Sonic as one of those tricks.
There is already a seperate thread for this and I did vote for further discussion as I too believe it is needed.QUOTE"Neobackaround, 1 rotation, 1.5 rotations, both?"
I don't really understand this. Is it meant as a NeoBak from a NBF, or just a loose one?
NeoBackAround - Scrap the name, rename it to 'Fingerless Shadow' and then have it follow exactly the same conventions and rules as a Shadow does, the only difference will be the FL modifier at the beginning.QUOTE"A fundamental for each spin type?"
Good for standardizing penspinning and making it more organized, but is it possible? Can anyone comment on this?
I think perhaps a fundamental roll and air trick might be difficult to decide upon. Wiper is always said to be a 'utility trick' because it takes very little skill to learn (this bit gets quite long).
'The Fundamentals are relatively easy to learn and help build a foundation for many other tricks, combos and hybrids that follow. For example, the Pass and Charge can be combined into the Twisted Sonic hybrid, while Sonic and Charge are used for the Sonic Clip hybrid. Many mistakenly count the Infinity as a Fundamental.' - Definition of fundamental from pen spinning wiki.
'Utility trick is a little-used term for a trick that is almost always (or most often associated with) another trick(s) performed in a well-known mini-combo. The two tricks often termed "utility tricks" are the Wiper and the Pass.' - Utility trick definition from the wiki.
Now I think that Wiper fits the definition of fundamental, it is relatively easy to learn and leads on to combos and hybrids including the whole infinity family as well as combos such as cardioid. I think we could actually scrap the term 'utility trick' or at least change its meaning if Wiper was made a fundamental.
To find air and roll tricks that fit this definition can be quite hard. I cannot think of a simple roll trick nor I can think of a simple air trick that does not require being already able to do a trick. The basic 'spin' trick could be a tap? However, that would need redefining first... -
Date: Sat, Jun 28 2008 02:56:38
i dont think it'd make any sense to have wiper be a fundy, it should be infinity. Just like the fingerpass is the fundemental for the pass
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Date: Sat, Jun 28 2008 06:58:27QUOTERedefine the Half Tap, Full Tap and Fake Reverse as tricks of the Spin family.
I'm still okay with defining "Top Spin" as a trick, rather than "Tap". Fulltap tends to have more of an extended push to it rather than a quick tap, like Halftap. Fake Reverse normally doesn't have a tap to it either, unless you use the David Weis push that we've been calling the "flicked" push.QUOTEScissor spin, done at the base of the fingers, or at the tips? 1 rotation, .5 rotation, both?Named hybrid done from the base of the fingers, 1.0 rotation. If it's done at the tips of the fingers, we can just go with Fingeraround 0.5 ~ Halftap 0.5 (or Tap or Top Spin...)QUOTENaming the spider spin variations.I don't see anything more to do if Spider Spin only needs to consist of the top spin on the fingernail-side of the finger(s) with the palm facing up and finger(s) curled into a ball. The push/catch don't need to have a set definition.QUOTENeobackaround, 1 rotation, 1.5 rotations, both?1.5 rotations. Only 1.0 of those rotations are done for the Neobak Fall combo.QUOTEBreaking down triangle pass and backhand tracer.I don't think we need to break anything down further, the tricks consist of spins as noted in the Trick Types thread.QUOTEA fundamental for each spin type?I don't think that there needs to be a lot of Fundamentals. I only see the Fundies as a few tricks for the absolute beginner to work on right off the bat. Once those are done, the spinner should be able to go out on his/her own and figure out what to do next. -
Date: Sat, Jun 28 2008 09:47:30QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jun 28 2008, 03:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i dont think it'd make any sense to have wiper be a fundy, it should be infinity. Just like the fingerpass is the fundemental for the pass
Infinity could not be used as a fundamental because it uses both Wipers and Passes. -
Date: Sat, Jun 28 2008 21:59:56
the fact is, the pass T1-12 in an infinity is barely even a pass. Yes, it is TECHNICALLY a pass, but i don't think we should disqualify it just because of that
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Date: Sat, Jun 28 2008 22:08:41QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jun 28 2008, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the fact is, the pass T1-12 in an infinity is barely even a pass. Yes, it is TECHNICALLY a pass, but i don't think we should disqualify it just because of that
Infinity is a combo.
It's made up of different tricks.
That come from different spin types.
One of those tricks is a so called fundamental in itself.
Therefore, infinity cannot be a fundamental. -
Date: Sat, Jun 28 2008 22:20:16
if you're gonna be technical
the pass is n ot a fundemental -
Date: Sat, Jun 28 2008 22:41:05
Which is why he said "so called Fundamental". No need to have to combos as Fundamentals that both use the same trick inside, especially one that also uses another trick. At least Fingerpass just uses finger slot variations of the same trick.
Infinity is a super-easy combo to learn, but doesn't add any real value by being added to the Fundamentals list. You can learn Wiper Reverse easily enough without even knowing about the Infinity combo. I learned Cardioid before hearing about Infinity, it being a sensible combo to learn after Thumbaround.