UPSB v3
General Discussion / Ranks?
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Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 07:44:34
ok so i was just watching a couple of collab videos from pendolsa and JEB and a couple from other places,
and i just noticed...wow almost all the spinners in the video are so so good. there is not one bad one.
and i think..what the heck, do they only let the good ones spin in the collabs or somthing?
and not to be mean or putting upsb down, but ive seen collabs where there are a lot of great spinners
and some ok ones...
then i thought, well maybe they have rankings. like beginner to like pro.
and i was like wow...maybe that would be a good idea for upsb. i was talking it over with the Queen lol.
and she said it was a good idea.
now i used to be into sig making before pen spinning and i was in these boards called national sig league.
and in thoes forums they had rankings to see how good you are. (rankings where for battleing, contests, and a lot of other
things but i forgot)
to determine your ranking...they made you post at least 5 or more signatures and a group of
professionals would rank you on the 5 sigs out have posted. maybe we can do that for combos?
for the pros...we can have like eriror or tnc lol.
but ya the rankins went-
-Beginner
-Novice
-Moderate
-Intermidiate (which i left off before i stopped making them lol)
-Semi Pro
-Pro
but ya...what do you guys think? and when we get these rankings..
we can have it listed under our name or somthing...and the rankings doesn't hafta go twords just collabs...
they can just tell other ppl how good that person is and such...
(sorry if there are a lot of typos...its late and i need to get to bed haha) -
Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 07:56:09
Your comment about other community collabs...it may just be because the only ones we know about are the pro spinner ones. Im sure a lot of lesser known collabs contain intermediate spinners.
But I think your idea is a much better systematic way to determine skill rather than the typical "how long have you been pen spinning" which is hardly accurate most of the time.
Edit: My brother has spoken with a korean exchange student that was part of PDS and PDS does have ranks. To achieve the ranks though i believe you had to complete certain set challenges. -
Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 07:58:10
I personally like it but I think we just need 3-5 ranks...good idea either way
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Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 07:59:34
Interesting idea, not sure how it would work out.
First we would need people to judge, and with the amoun of people that would want to be rated, this would be an overwhelming amount. Also, not everyone always makes a great combo every time, so saying that all pros will be in a collab, some of the combos may not be that good, also, a intermediate might make a really pro clip which could have been included in a very high collab. Heavy filtering does a better job IMO.
It's a good idea though and could be incorporated in ladder or something like that, not sure about collabs though.
P.S. JEB has a lot more spinners then UPSB, and I think that PDS do as well, somebody will have to confirm that. -
Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 08:31:23QUOTE (Tim @ Oct 16 2007, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>P.S. JEB has a lot more spinners then UPSB, and I think that PDS do as well, somebody will have to confirm that.
PDS has around the 300,000 spinners in its community. -
Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 09:24:49
And JEB liek 250k?
But hey, why do we need ranks? Why not just say for the big collabs, this is a big collab so your spinning level needs to at a high level of skill or creativity, let everyone who think they are good enough send in, and the filter away the ones that are not up to it. -
Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 09:40:32QUOTEMy brother has spoken with a korean exchange student that was part of PDS and PDS does have ranks. To achieve the ranks though i believe you had to complete certain set challenges.
yes they do have ranks..there is 8 different ranks guest, pre-member, member(LM), excellent?? member(EM), special member(SM), Moderator, Admin, Root Admin(MR LSC)
to get to member(LM), that easy..
once in a while PDS has an event where they 'promote' some member(LM) to Excellent Member(EM)
you need to do some test which i heard was really really hard and the top ten scorer or top wateva will be promoted.
i like the idea of ranks..i don't know how it can work..but i reckon its a book suggestion -
Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 12:03:42
i'm quite sure heavy filtering won't help as much, since it is usually the person editing the collab who will do the filtering, and everyone has differing tastes in styles and such.
but this ranking system may not be such a wonderful idea as well. imagine a collab where the critiria says 'pro spinners only'. that is rather putting down isn't it?
but if this system is to be implemented, we definitely need some good judges. and lots of them too, to make it more balanced. -
Date: Tue, Oct 16 2007 19:56:11QUOTE (Nova @ Oct 16 2007, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but this ranking system may not be such a wonderful idea as well. imagine a collab where the critiria says 'pro spinners only'. that is rather putting down isn't it?
A lot of collabs already mention that they will be heavily filtered which is basically a nice way of saying "we will only be using clips of pro spinning".
The rank system doesnt have to be perfect, it should just indicate the relative skill of a spinner which might help for more balanced battles but i suppose thats what ladder is for. -
Date: Wed, Oct 17 2007 05:30:47
yeah it sort of sucks that there are only about 40 spinners using the ladder, while we have about 800 spinners on UPSB, probably about 500 active?
40/500 = 8%..
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Date: Wed, Oct 17 2007 07:24:57
500 members that are active and good enough to do simple combos? Doubtful..
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Date: Wed, Oct 17 2007 07:45:58
500 members that are active and good enough to do simple combos and have cameras? Doubtful...
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Date: Wed, Oct 17 2007 09:15:30
how about we don't restrict people because of the ranks..for example..if someone is making a pro collab, intermediates/beginners can participate..but its just recommended that they don't.
i really like the idea of ranks..we should make it.. -
Date: Wed, Oct 17 2007 09:52:41QUOTE (WhiteFang @ Oct 17 2007, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>how about we don't restrict people because of the ranks..for example..if someone is making a pro collab, intermediates/beginners can participate..but its just recommended that they don't.
i really like the idea of ranks..we should make it..
Then what's the point of calling it a pro collab? -
Date: Wed, Oct 17 2007 09:57:29
ahh..good point..my idea was 'Pros Collab' = recommended pros to participate..meaning..there will be heavy filtering..
but i guess that would make the whole point of having ranks useless..so i guess we can restrict it.. -
Date: Sun, Nov 4 2007 04:54:52
Dude i totally remember NSL, BTW i deserved Semi pro but the DOUCHE BAGS ONLY GAVE MY NOVICE ARGHH!!!
Yea it'll be cool to have a team that ranks you... -
Date: Sun, Nov 4 2007 06:21:54
How to you rank novice and think youre semi-pro? Clearly you were overestimating the quality of your work. Thinking you deserve semi-pro but getting ranked intermediate might be the judges fault, but from semi-pro to novice should tell you something....
Either way, rankings would be cool but that would mean someone has to devote a lot of time into judging videos. -
Date: Sun, Nov 4 2007 10:34:45
I don't think we need ranks for several reasons...
Firstly, people who run collabs have the option to filter or not. With the number of spinners so small on UPSB, there is no hassle in filtering videos. I can imagine in JEB say, with so many members, that if one says they are making a collab, there would be too many submissions to make filtering a viable option, but as things are on UPSB now, it works.
Secondly, inaccuracy in rakings can be a problem. If someone steps up really quickly, for instance TLDScorp, has become a pretty good spinner in a short space of time, then their rank can, for a time, be inaccurate. Also, if a member is not very active, they could be of a high level of spinning, but not be known well enough on the forum, or not have yet posted a video on the forum to show they are of a high level. This could mean they can't contribute to some videos.
Thirdly, this community is pretty small. Five hundred active spinners seems too high. I think we have perhaps three or four hundred active spinners. Of these, let's say 15% are 'good' spinners. That's is only 50 or so good spinners. This is such a small number that most people on UPSB know who is good and who is not, the numbers are small enough to be able to keep track. It's only when you have hundreds of good spinners, and the forum gets so large that you cannot keep track of all good spinners mentally that ranks really becomes useful.
Lastly, a judging system would have to have a scoring system of some sort, some kind of 'standard' by which people can be judged by. This could prove very difficult. Also, judges would have to be unbias, and be pretty good spinners themselves to be able to judge level of spinning. They also would have to not come under pressure from te community. Some people may complain 'spinner x is really good, why is his ranking not higher?', however, by the standards set by the committee, they might not be that good. This could lead to problems... Also, would spinners of higher rankings begin to look down on 'lower' spinners? I personally, feel that some kind of 'class' system of pen spinner would not be a good thing for UPSB.
In conclusion, ranking seems to me to be an imperfect system, that we do not need for now. Perhaps, if the number of of members on UPSB were to increase dramatically, to the point where we had thousands of active members, a ranking system would be a good idea, for now though, and for the near future, I see it as unneccassary.
Wow, Kam post! -
Date: Sun, Nov 4 2007 13:49:02
I think ranks is a good idea because some people don't really know their spinning level, like me -.-
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Date: Sun, Nov 4 2007 18:24:02
i agree with mats
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Date: Sun, Nov 4 2007 18:36:35
Ranks aren't necessarily only used for filtering, but can also be used as a sort of stepping stone for pen spinners -- kinda like when you're playing a video game and you keep trying to get to the next level.
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Date: Mon, Nov 5 2007 13:23:19
How about we have something like the Ulmen Trials of XCM?
I'm not very supportive of any ranking. It'd require too much work to set it up and maintain it. We'll need to come up with a standard to judge against, as mentioned by mats. If you had participated in the research department, you'd have realised the difficulty in coming up with an agreement with decides the whole community.
We'll also need to have a group of judges to rank people. Unbiased judges will be ideal, but that's difficult to achieve because most people have their prefered spinning style. Also, it's important that the judges be very aware of what they are judging people against. When I was judging in UCPSB, I frequently found myself giving better grades for a video which I deemed as more pleasant to me, without really considering the theme to judge upon. It becomes like a popularity contest, where the winner is the person who pleases more people. It'd be important that judges are able to avoid this situation. If a standard can be agreed upon, it'd be extremely useful. However, for an art like pen spinning, it'd also be difficult to identify the various characteristics to look out for and judged upon.
Lastly, the problem of maintainence. It'd be likely that the appointed judges will retire from their position and have people take over them. Due to human nature, it'd be impossible to expect the successors to judge the same way as the previous judges, so the problem of inconsistency arises. A more major issue is that a record of the ranks of people will be necessary for the ranking to be useful. This list will have to be updated frequently to reflect any new rankings. That'll be quite a lot of trouble.
It doesn't seem likely that the usefulness of such a ranking will be sufficient to justify the immense amount of efforts required. Uses like filtering of pen spinners for collaboration as well as to point the direction for budding pen spinners are currently being mentioned. However, as some have mentioned, there are not so many people participating in collaboration videos nowadays that the filtering job by the producers have become difficult. As for pen spinners looking for a standard to improve upon, I believe the flooding of pen spinning videos in the internet should proving sufficient materials to study. Otherwise, one could also strive to look for new ways of pen spinning i.e. inventing new tricks or styles. -
Date: Mon, Nov 5 2007 15:52:52
I simply do not like ranks because it gives spinners the impression that they are working towards a social goal (being seen as an excellent spinner in the eyes of your peers) as opposed to goals they set for themselves. If a person is dedicated to only trying to improve their fingerpass speed, then what is the difference between that person, with an amazing fingerpass, or a person with a sloppy but complex combo. I think spinning is about personal goals, why force people to measure up against others?
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Date: Wed, Nov 7 2007 04:04:05
I dont like the label "rank"
A "tier" system sounds better -
Date: Wed, Nov 7 2007 05:04:54
I think the idea of something like the Ulmen Trials is a very good idea.
Ranks not so though. -
Date: Wed, Nov 7 2007 05:28:29QUOTE (cyber penguin @ Nov 5 2007, 07:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I simply do not like ranks because it gives spinners the impression that they are working towards a social goal (being seen as an excellent spinner in the eyes of your peers) as opposed to goals they set for themselves. If a person is dedicated to only trying to improve their fingerpass speed, then what is the difference between that person, with an amazing fingerpass, or a person with a sloppy but complex combo. I think spinning is about personal goals, why force people to measure up against others?
i completely agree with you.
i know there are some spinners out there that act like asses to those they look down upon,
or those who don't equal to to their skill or greater. -
Date: Wed, Nov 7 2007 05:30:11
i agree that upsb is too small a pen spinning community to have a ranking and personally for me if my vid were to ever be filtered out for a collab because im not good enough thats fine because i may not know about the rest of u who suk as much as i do (yea i really suk) but being able to hear from someone straight forward ur not in is good enough to make me say ok time to practice.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 17:22:08
Omg? JEB and PDS have 100s of 1000s of members?...
Isn't that like 1/30 of Japans population? Or do they have that many people there?
I agree with most of the people here that ranks would be good if we had that^ many people... -
Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 21:02:38QUOTE (darkeh @ Nov 11 2007, 06:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Omg? JEB and PDS have 100s of 1000s of members?... Isn't that like 1/30 of Japans population? Or do they have that many people there?
I agree with most of the people here that ranks would be good if we had that^ many people...
Japan's population is 127,433,494 (July 2007 est). 1/30 of that would be more than 4 million. -
Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 21:25:17
so like one in 1000?
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Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 21:36:28
stay on topic please.