UPSB v3
Philosophy / Tricks: Discovered or Invented?
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 00:47:39
Vote/Debate. This topic (sans poll) was made a long time ago at Pentix, albeit with different wording. Just thought I'd rehash the subject for some (hopefully) interesting discussion.
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 02:17:27
Does it even matter? It sounds like they're basically the same thing anyway.
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 03:02:34
I dont think it should matter. As long as it is created and it benefits the PS community its cool.
Discover: Usually means "accidentally"
Invent: put effort into. -
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 03:41:00
Discovered. I had a good point but then I had to log in and I forgot it.
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 04:15:03
I think all things in this universe are "discovered". The potential to use it in all possible ways has always existed, but it just has not been discovered yet by an observer. The same thing could be said for other phenomena in this universe, such as pulley systems, magnetic fields, induction, etc. Those things were always there. It just took someone to discover it and then he becomes recognized for discovering it.
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 04:35:11
seems like arguing semantics to me.
I think that at some point, it is invented, because when you do a trick, you have an intention behind it, you want to create an effect.
It would have been discoved in a different context but it wouldn't have been the same invention.
In other words, although the end result was already existing a feature, what makes it an invention is that there's an intention behind it, which comes solely from human imagination. -
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 10:40:49QUOTE (Eso @ Oct 19 2007, 06:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think all things in this universe are "discovered". The potential to use it in all possible ways has always existed, but it just has not been discovered yet by an observer. The same thing could be said for other phenomena in this universe, such as pulley systems, magnetic fields, induction, etc. Those things were always there. It just took someone to discover it and then he becomes recognized for discovering it.
Now, I'm not very educated in physics and the like, but are not these things that exist naturally? They've always been there, like you said, it just took someone to discover them. A trick on the other hand does not exist before anyone does it, and hence is invented. When man first learned how to walk, did he discover or invent how to do so? -
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 11:54:52
It depends... Some tricks are invented and other or discovered
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 14:15:56QUOTE (Sfsr @ Oct 19 2007, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Now, I'm not very educated in physics and the like, but are not these things that exist naturally? They've always been there, like you said, it just took someone to discover them. A trick on the other hand does not exist before anyone does it, and hence is invented. When man first learned how to walk, did he discover or invent how to do so?
Well, what I want to state here is that the potential has always existed. I could get into the whole theory of multiverses and whatnot but that's overkill. Suffice it to say that because the potential exists, it is merely discovered by humans. True, it may not have been done before, but I don't believe that the person who first did it actually 'invented' that trick. Instead, he/she merely discovered that it exists.
Contrived as it may seem, I would like to use the following examples:
Columbus discovered the Americas.
Humans discovered fire.
Archimedes discovered the screw
But I agree with Zombo. This is more like an argument of semantics. I believe that 'invention' is the total creation of something new, however, the potential has always been there. He believes that it is a creation born from a person's mind, and it has not been thought of before.
The only problem with that is that sometimes there's simultaneous inventions, or re-inventions. Situations like that make the word seem...flawed. -
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 15:50:11
But as I see it, humans did not discover fire, they invented how to make fire themselves.
It's all just difference in opinions, I see a discovery as finding something that already existed in the physical world, not something that just has the potential to exist. Which brings us back into the pinnacle of progress discussion; if we just had enough time everything should be able to be discovered, and is anything then invented or just discovered?
Ah, now I'm confused... -
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 16:07:25
Yes, discovering something means revealing something that already existed and bringing it to attention. Explorers discover land masses. Static electricity was discovered. However, as mentioned, inventions are products of the human imagination that did not previously physically exist. The question is, do all tricks already exist and are waiting to be discovered or do they only exist after someone invents them? Are they viewed as latent physical phenomena, such as gravity and friciton, or are they products of creative thought? If the case is the former, then nobody would have invented any tricks, only discovered something that already existed.
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 17:07:13
a trick = the actual physical phenomenon PLUS the concept of the trick PLUS the intentions behind the trick = invention since only it's composed of some artificial parts.
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 17:54:53
You discover the movement, either by accident or by working towards a specific effect. You invent the trick by naming it (and given paramenters for it).
-
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 19:22:49
I said discovered. I've always believed that two or more people independently developing the same concept is a good sign that something is discovered rather than invented. Several cultures discovered the pythagorean theorem, because (I believe) mathematics is discovered. You never hear two artists produce exactly the same song, because music is invented.
I've never really understood mathematicians who say that mathematics is invented. -
Date: Fri, Oct 19 2007 21:18:12
The invention can't be invented until it has been observed by someone. Until that moment it simply doesn't exist. It's just a discovery that hasn't been seen until that moment. You can't invent it because it has always been there, but at the same time it's not there until you observe it. :~ O
-
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 02:25:33QUOTE (Eso @ Oct 19 2007, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think all things in this universe are "discovered". The potential to use it in all possible ways has always existed, but it just has not been discovered yet by an observer. The same thing could be said for other phenomena in this universe, such as pulley systems, magnetic fields, induction, etc. Those things were always there. It just took someone to discover it and then he becomes recognized for discovering it.
That was my reason.
-
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 08:34:32
Discovered - Something that already existed that has been observed
Invented - Something that did not previously exist that we have created
I don't think pens, let alone spinning pens, was something already about in the natural universe, so imo, all tricks are invented. -
Date: Thu, Oct 25 2007 14:16:31QUOTE (grsbmd @ Oct 19 2007, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You never hear two artists produce exactly the same song, because music is invented.
that's not a good comparison, because songs are on a significantly larger scale than tricks.
If you want to relate to songs in PS, try comparing complete combos to songs. I doubt you'll see two people come up with the same exact combo on their own.
Otherwise, you'll see that songs are based on notes, which are discovered, since many civilizations found the same set or a subset of the 12 tones. -
Date: Wed, Oct 31 2007 19:46:11
I think all tricks are discovered. Everyone has an opportunity to do any trick that is possible. We just have figure out what are all the possiblilities of tricks.
-
Date: Mon, Nov 5 2007 21:09:04
I see it as discovery because I don't see it as something you "do" with the pen but a artful thing to "do" with your body. More in pen spinning comes out of the person than the pen so it makes it the discovery of your own limits. IDK, just gesticulating.
-
Date: Mon, Nov 12 2007 14:51:25
It is true that temperature, gravity, mass, etc are all inventions (definitions). And, they dont actually exist in nature. Then, what does the thermometer show, and pressure gauge, voltmeter, etc ? They show what scientists invented (defined) how scientists invented (defined).
Then, we can say;
What can be discovered are what have already existed before they are discovered.
And, human sensitibility or imagination dont affect thier existence. They exist in nature.
What can be invented are what have not existed yet before they are invented.
And, human sensitibility or imagination do create their existence. They never exist in nature.
(That is for science theory, so it would be a little different for penspinning.)
For penspinning, even though you unconsciously succeeded in doing something new, then you actually succeeded in inventing it. It's not a discovery because the thing you did is technically new.
---
Btw, how do you do, everybody? (This is my first post.)
I just hope you wont misunderstand my poor English! -
Date: Sun, Nov 25 2007 00:15:17
^ Your English, Punctuation and spelling are great
better than a lot of people.
I believe that tricks are invented. Gravity was already in existance so you can't invent it, you discover it. Tricks are invented because it wasn't there before, someone had to execute the trick first. -
Date: Sun, Nov 25 2007 03:39:04
I don't think invented should even be a word at all. Everything in the world is already able to be done and invented. I find it more over that we have to discover it.
-
Date: Sun, Nov 25 2007 03:59:01
Well I don't think you can discover a guitar before it's invented. Just because it is able to be invented doesn't mean it exists. There's no such thing as a guitar before the inventor of guitar invents it. Guitar isn't a thing yet so it can't be discovered.
-
Date: Sun, Nov 25 2007 04:29:43
Thanks, Eruo.
QUOTE (Eruo @ Nov 24 2007, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Tricks are invented because it wasn't there before, someone had to execute the trick first.
You're right about this. However, we call something that forces objects with mass to fall to earth "gravity". Although the force is in existence, gravity itself is the most likely explanation for the mysterious force. -
Date: Tue, Aug 12 2008 11:19:39
Tricks are a discovery. They are discovered not on purpose but while doin something. Some tricks could have been invented like zombo's basketballspin. He would have tried to relate it to the actuall spin..