UPSB v3
Serious Discussion / Middle East Conflict
Israel vs. Hamas
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Date: Sun, Jan 11 2009 23:50:55
I know this is a really sensitive topic, but I was asking of your opinion. I think both sides don't want to compromise because they don't want to give up anything. And the US should act as a mediator, not as a full on supporter of Israel.
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Date: Mon, Jan 12 2009 01:20:08QUOTE (Fall @ Jan 12 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I know this is a really sensitive topic, but I was asking of your opinion. I think both sides don't want to compromise because they don't want to give up anything. And the US should act as a mediator, not as a full on supporter of Israel.
If no one gives up anything, Israel will win due to military might and the support of the US. US can't help but support Israel, who knows when Israel might turn back on the US. I was expecting China to intervene, but it seems like they are taking a passive approach towards furthering their global dominance through soft power. A more realistic out come is that the UN peacekeepers step in, and somehow negotiate a truce between two countries. -
Date: Mon, Jan 12 2009 04:09:19
The US believes that Israel is an important ally in the Middle East. I think the US should act as a mediator, but I think they've already stated they won't intervene unless a durable ceasefire agreement can be reached. Military support is the last thing the Americans should offer, with their military already stretched out and the state of the economy. Most likely the UN will step in, as Gunblakes said. Israel doesn't attack Gaza for 3 hours every day so that the Palestinians can receive international aid. Has Israel sent in ground troops yet?
Oh, and if the media tells you that Hamas or Israel violated the original ceasefire, what actually happened is that it expired. -
Date: Tue, Jan 13 2009 17:46:19QUOTE (Tialys @ Jan 12 2009, 05:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Has Israel sent in ground troops yet?
They have been working on the ground in Gaza for more than a week now.QUOTEOh, and if the media tells you that Hamas or Israel violated the original ceasefire, what actually happened is that it expired.
Technicalities, what matters that Hamas started it. Just because some paper says the cease-fire is over, that doesn't mean it is right to start terror attacks. It is absurd how Hamas think terror on civilians is a acceptable way to conduct a war. I think Isreal has all rights to be defend them self against that. But then again, Isreal strikes back harder than what is necessary. I don't know... and the is exactly what makes that conflict so difficult, there doesn't seem to be any good ones in it, but only evil. Hamas are evil for it horrible disregard for civilian lives. Isreal, for making unnecessarily hard counterattacks. And the Palestinian people are stupid for electing leaders, which don't care at all about their own peoples lives. -
Date: Tue, Jan 13 2009 23:18:04
We only went into Gaza because Hamas was shooting qassam rockets. Hamas started it and even with a cease fire they STILL shot rockets. We will get out of Gaza when they stop. No sooner. Hamas is an evil group. even at a neutral stand point they are horrible twisted people. they hide behind women and children and then when we lower our guns they kill us. They deserve what is coming for them. Oh and i saw WE because im half-israeli.
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Date: Wed, Jan 14 2009 01:36:07QUOTE (Daffy @ Jan 14 2009, 07:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>We only went into Gaza because Hamas was shooting qassam rockets. Hamas started it and even with a cease fire they STILL shot rockets. We will get out of Gaza when they stop. No sooner. Hamas is an evil group. even at a neutral stand point they are horrible twisted people. they hide behind women and children and then when we lower our guns they kill us. They deserve what is coming for them. Oh and i saw WE because im half-israeli.
That is true but how about the civilian casualties? -
Date: Wed, Jan 14 2009 01:48:17QUOTE (Gunblakes @ Jan 13 2009, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That is true but how about the civilian casualties?
on which side?? we dont intentionally kill citizens. i cant say the same for Hamas -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 03:21:57QUOTE (Daffy @ Jan 13 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>We only went into Gaza because Hamas was shooting qassam rockets. Hamas started it and even with a cease fire they STILL shot rockets. We will get out of Gaza when they stop. No sooner. Hamas is an evil group. even at a neutral stand point they are horrible twisted people. they hide behind women and children and then when we lower our guns they kill us. They deserve what is coming for them. Oh and i saw WE because im half-israeli.
You've got your facts wrong.
Hamas has every reason to do what they do if we go back in history.
After WWI the Hardcore Extremist Zionists got together and had a conference in Switzerland.
They agreed that they needed a country that they can call home for the Jews.
At the time Europeans occupied much of the Middle-East and Britain occupied a good amount of Palestine.
Arthur James issued the Balfour Declaration of 1917 that stated that Britain supported the Jews building a national home.
They did not support them making their own Jewish state.
It was even supposed to be understood that the Jews were not to interfere with non-Jewish communities inhabiting that area of Palestine.
The Jews started buying more and more land from the surrounding Palestinians.
Some of the Palestinians refused to sell their land, as it was all they had.
The Jews did not tolerate this and started becoming aggressive. <--To put it lightly.
This is where it all started. The Jews forced the Palestinians to give them their land.
The people whose land was taken were forced to become peasants, etc.
This is also where the poverty in Palestine started.
All the people can do is try to resist what was happening to them and fight back.
Hamas is a political party (like Democrats, Republicans) that was elected head of the PNA.
What people normally think of Hamas as is their military.
They're just a political party and their military are the ones that are fighting...not the actual party.
Hamas does what they can to defend their country from being oppressed.
The only reason people think that they're terrorists is because everyone is so poor that they only have rags to wear when they're launching rockets.
America is setting up peace treaties, Israel is breaking them.
Like Tialys said, Hamas never broke cease fires; they expired.
People claim Hamas promotes a culture of death and Hamas itself in Hebrew means "violence".
Guess what? When you're sitting in your room spinning your pen and you hear a crash and your front door is broken with some guys saying that it's their land and you even see a tractor cultivating your lawn behind them. You'd hate them too.QUOTEeven at a neutral stand point they are horrible twisted people. they hide behind women and children and then when we lower our guns they kill us.
-There's no neutral stand point.
-Hiding behind the women is the smart thing to do, it's called survival.
-Killing them when they lower their guns is also the smart thing to do, it's called strategy.
PS: I'm not Palestinian.
btw: /zakiwinsthethread. -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 05:11:13
One of the main triggers was the fact that Hamas started launching rockets at Israel first, how does one justify that (even if the ceasefire treaty had expired)? Despite the fact that they will certainly lose if they start a conflict, they still went ahead. My guess is that Hamas is aiming to draw attention to its "plight", and get the UN to negotiate them a favourable peace treaty with Israel, at the expense of civilian casualties.
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Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 05:19:59QUOTE (Gunblakes @ Jan 14 2009, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>One of the main triggers was the fact that Hamas started launching rockets at Israel first, how does one justify that (even if the ceasefire treaty had expired)? Despite the fact that they will certainly lose if they start a conflict, they still went ahead. My guess is that Hamas is aiming to draw attention to its "plight", and get the UN to negotiate them a favourable peace treaty with Israel, at the expense of civilian casualties.
Hamas started launching rockets first? Okay? and? Israel started being mean first.
Even if they will lose, you have to consider their values: they want the Jews out of their rightful land and will do what it takes to get it back.
Speaking of the UN, Israel bombed a UN School in Gaza. >_> -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 08:01:45QUOTE (XYZakiメAM @ Jan 15 2009, 05:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You've got your facts wrong.
Hamas has every reason to do what they do if we go back in history.
After WWI the Hardcore Extremist Zionists got together and had a conference in Switzerland.
They agreed that they needed a country that they can call home for the Jews.
At the time Europeans occupied much of the Middle-East and Britain occupied a good amount of Palestine.
Arthur James issued the Balfour Declaration of 1917 that stated that Britain supported the Jews building a national home.
They did not support them making their own Jewish state.
It was even supposed to be understood that the Jews were not to interfere with non-Jewish communities inhabiting that area of Palestine.
The Jews started buying more and more land from the surrounding Palestinians.
Some of the Palestinians refused to sell their land, as it was all they had.
The Jews did not tolerate this and started becoming aggressive. <--To put it lightly.
This is where it all started. The Jews forced the Palestinians to give them their land.
The people whose land was taken were forced to become peasants, etc.
This is also where the poverty in Palestine started.
All the people can do is try to resist what was happening to them and fight back.
Hamas is a political party (like Democrats, Republicans) that was elected head of the PNA.
What people normally think of Hamas as is their military.
They're just a political party and their military are the ones that are fighting...not the actual party.
Hamas does what they can to defend their country from being oppressed.
The only reason people think that they're terrorists is because everyone is so poor that they only have rags to wear when they're launching rockets.
America is setting up peace treaties, Israel is breaking them.
Like Tialys said, Hamas never broke cease fires; they expired.
People claim Hamas promotes a culture of death and Hamas itself in Hebrew means "violence".
Guess what? When you're sitting in your room spinning your pen and you hear a crash and your front door is broken with some guys saying that it's their land and you even see a tractor cultivating your lawn behind them. You'd hate them too.
-There's no neutral stand point.
-Hiding behind the women is the smart thing to do, it's called survival.
-Killing them when they lower their guns is also the smart thing to do, it's called strategy.
PS: I'm not Palestinian.
btw: /zakiwinsthethread.
Some of the facts here are completely wrong.
First thing- about the lands: When Israeli Zionists started buying Palestinian land they always paid them the full amount.
No recount of violence towards Palestinians is ever recorded nor in Brittan records nor in Palestinian records.
Secondly- after a few years when the Palestinian people started understanding what they did and that they were stupid to sell their land they cried out to the British and demanded that their land would be returned to them, even though they were bought from them legally.
The second and third white book just demonstrates this so clearly.
Also- the Zionist party already started looking for a land even before WWI but with no success, the British declared the Balfour declaration in order to make Jews help Brittan in the war.
Now about Hamas- It indeed started out as a political party, but soon degenerated into a military party with military agendas rather than political ones.This can be shown in the current war and in the actions Hamas took against Israel during the cease fire (and yes there were rockets still launched at us during the cease fire only the global media chose to ignore it conviniently).
If you're saying that hiding behind cevilians (including women and children) and launcing rockets and other disasters towards Israeli civilians is strategy-then Hamas are masters in that.
There is actual footage of Hamas dragging children in front of them in order for them to be used as a human shield, and then the world is surprised at how many children have died in this war...
When your political party does not care about the people it serves- it stops being a political party and becomes a military and dictatorship party, there is no doubt in that.
My statemeny is a bit biased towards the Israeli agenda, but what can I say- I live it every day and I have more information than you guys to see the whole picture.
I do agree that some of the acts that Israel took towards the Palestinians in the past are paralel to injustice, but that works both ways. -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 11:47:51
I'm going to expand a bit on the unbelievable amount of wrong facts Zaki wrote.
It's funny how you say he has the wrong facts when half the things you say are prejudiced lies.
"The Jews did not tolerate this and started becoming aggressive. <--To put it lightly."
What the hell are you talking about? During most of the British rule the Jews didn't even have a military organization, and the Palestines CONSTANTLY raided Jewish settlements. When they did form one, it was called Hahagana, meaning "Defense", since that's what they did.
It's true that later more organizations formed, some extreme and violent, that's true, but the Palestines ALWAYS were aggressive. Besides the violent organization was smaller in comparison.
Also did you know that Britain had about 3 division plans for the country, to split it so that everyone is happy. The Jews agreed to every single one of them, guess what the Palestines did?
The final one was pretty much forced as the UN ordered Britain to evacuate. Guess what happened shortly after? The Palestines started the war, which we won.
I mean seriously how does it make sense to anyone that after constantly resisting the rules and not working together to cultivate their own country, going with head-to-the-wall kind of attitude about any kind of compromise, raiding settlements and killing civilians and then declaring war, losing it, makes us the bad guys?
Obviously I'm not saying we're all a bunch of angels, there's corruption everywhere, but how is it that when we take terrorism from every direction, we fight back and we're considered bad because we fight them with actual military.
Point is that Israel was always willing to discuss peace as long as it didn't involve completely absurd requests.
Point in example: The Hezbollah had 2 israeli PoW that were not confirmed as live or dead, and we had to trade dozens of terrorists that murdered dozens of people, just to receive 2 corpses and some info. Woohoo.
Oh and Zaki, if you think that hiding behind civilians and then killing soldiers is strategy, you are completely inhuman, I can't even understand how you accept that sort of action.
And if you kill civilians on purpose of killing civilians, you're a terrorist, and that's what they are. -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 14:35:28
There will always be casualties in a war. A point to consider : Does Israel have the higher moral ground? Although it didn't start the war, its military assault has resulted in many civillian casualties, outnumbering those caused by Hamas.
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Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 15:00:46QUOTE (Gunblakes @ Jan 15 2009, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There will always be casualties in a war. A point to consider : Does Israel have the higher moral ground? Although it didn't start the war, its military assault has resulted in many civillian casualties, outnumbering those caused by Hamas.
It indeed has.
But I ask you the same question- would you want your country to stop at this point knowing that if they do- the enemy would just replenish its arsenal and resume attacking innocent civilians.
No country in the world has been as patient as we were in the past 8 years not responding in a real response to the missile attack on our innocent civilians. I doubt any country in the world has the right to criticize us for our attack and just how justified it was.
Regarding the civilians- I am deeply sorry that they brought it on themselves after electing Hamas as it's political party knowing that they are more militaristic than the Fatach.
Hamas actually wants higher casualties in this war in order to show that we are "barbaric".
Reports have shown that Hamas are dragging their own wounded away quickly from the ruins and leaving the rest of the civilian population in order to show how "unjustified" our attack is. -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 15:24:14
@zaki
We NEVER forced the Palestinians out and BTW Palestinians then were any1 who lived in that region. not just arabs. they believed that they could come back with a huge army and kill the Jews and destroy Israel. we NEVER FORCED them out. there are Arabs living in Israel right now. they chose to leave believing in things that never happened. and there are videos of hamas soldiers grabbing children and running with them as human shields and the palestinians say "oh well he was just trying to save the boy" but when you know Arabic and you listen to the voices in the background you hear the father saying "give me back my son , give me back my son!" if you think that is strategy that is the most sickest thing i have ever heard in my life.
@ who ever else
There are little children in Israel scared to death of falling asleep because maybe there would be a Qassam that hit them while they slept. Children are scared of looking at the sky thinking that if they look there will be a rocket in the sky coming toward them. People are not ocming out of there own homes and are scared to death. If you only have 15 seconds until a rocket hits that is not enough time to do anything. imagine if you were in the shower and you had 15 seconds to get out of the shower and walk down the 3 flights of stairs you have in you apartment. you could NEVER make it in 15 seconds and you would likely get killed because you cant move fast enough. THAT is them most horrible thing i have ever heard!
Yes, Israel has caused more DAMAGE but the amount of citizen casualty are much less than hamas who's goal IS to cause citizen casualties. Israel is able to use pinpoint places and destroy them with causing very little or no damage to the things around it. i agree that the dmamage has been massive but the casualties are fairly low. Israel has to do what it has to do to protect itself. -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 16:57:25
I think if no country sells them weapons there will be no problem, but btw countries only matter about the money.
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Date: Sun, Jan 18 2009 03:46:56
Nobody is arguing with Israel's right to defend itself, but the violence they used was disproportionate, excessive and unnecessary. More than 1200 Palestinians have been killed in retribution for attacks that have killed 13 Israelis, according to The New York Times. I know you can't put numbers on people, but Israel shouldn't be bombing Hamas in the first place when there are innocent Palestinians in the way.
Anyway, Israel just declared a unilateral ceasefire that will take effect in a few hours, but they're leaving their troops in Gaza for the time being. Hamas says it'll continue fighting as long as Israeli troops remain.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/world/mi...rss&emc=rss -
Date: Sun, Jan 18 2009 05:32:23
Disproportionate?
Did you even read the previous posts about the 8 years our citizens in the south were denied a normal life?
I say this with full confidence- if it were any other country that were attacked-there would have been many more casualties on the civilian side.
The fact that we also allow a humanitarian cease fire every day while the Hamas doesn't just shows who is humane.
Why along the 8 years of Hamas rockets were there not these kind of comments about it?
The world is hypocritical and lame, following only their own hatred towards the other.
Look at the top countries going against this operation: Iran, Syria, Venezuela and Turkey, all the countries with questionable governments and a bloody past. -
Date: Sun, Jan 18 2009 19:06:52QUOTE (Tialys @ Jan 18 2009, 05:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Nobody is arguing with Israel's right to defend itself, but the violence they used was disproportionate, excessive and unnecessary. More than 1200 Palestinians have been killed in retribution for attacks that have killed 13 Israelis, according to The New York Times. I know you can't put numbers on people, but Israel shouldn't be bombing Hamas in the first place when there are innocent Palestinians in the way.
Right so in order to defend ourselves without pissing everyone else off we need to also shoot lame rockets who don't do anything.
What kind of BS is that. We have a really army so we're using it.
Besides you're saying it as if those 1200 are all innocent civilians which is not true. I don't know how many of those are civilians but I believe that at the least 1000, although I believe it's more like 1100 or 1150, are all cold blooded terrorists who would murder each and every one of us on sight if given the option.
Why are we not allowed to attack when there are civilians in the way, and when they ONLY attack civilians it's all fine and dandy? Hypocrisy at it's best. It's not like we killed civilians on purpose, like they do. -
Date: Mon, Jan 19 2009 01:53:17
you realize that those 1200 Palestinians killed were not just from our army. Hamas doesnt care who they kill. they will kill their own civilians to protect their own asses. Israel has had a cease-fire everyday like Thewave said and no one acknowledges us about it.
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Date: Mon, Jan 19 2009 12:29:42
Well people were stupid after WWII making Israel. That's what started everything because people said so much about their land being taken away.
Don't know. Middle East is definitely in mess. -
Date: Mon, Jan 19 2009 12:37:17
People were and are stupid.
After 6 million Jews were slaughtered by the Nazi's and after the help the allies got from the Jewish fighting the Nazis and the Arabs (that were pro-Nazis) we definitely deserved our rightful land, not to mention there are historical claims that we were here before the Palestinians.
The middle east is in a mess because of the Arabs.
While we wanted a place to live in peace the Arabs wanted to wipe us out of the face of the earth.
Even today people want to wipe us and Islamic terrorism is just conveniently focusing on us. Who says if they succeed they will stop there?
Who says they won't just continue to hate everyone that is different from them and demand the world. It's just the Arab's way- they always want everything even if it defies the laws of everyone and they will try to get it no matter what the costs are.
We've seen it in the past with the rise of the Islam and their own Crusades, we've seen it in the following 1000 years and we see it today with countries like Iran and Syria and also other terrorist organizations such as Hizballah, Hamas and others. -
Date: Mon, Jan 19 2009 12:45:22
my brother (who is in the israeli army) tells me before the war he was jumped by arabs and they would have almost killed him unless his friend was there and he fought off the arabs the point is the arabs (hamas) were trying to kill us even before the war
(i am half israeli too)