UPSB v3
General Discussion / Rule Change
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Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 17:44:58QUOTE (Kam @ Feb 22 2009, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Guys, we should all calm down and let the judges solve things between Areso and Stuhl.
We are focusing too much on the rules and forgetting to appreciate both spinners' great videos.
Yes, it would be great if the rules were perfect, but remember that we've only had one world tournament (2007) before, so the rules still needs refining.
That doesn't mean spinners should completely disregard them, but we can certainly have exceptions. That is why we have judges to take care of situations like this.
Anyways, I think both videos were great (along with a number of other videos in this round).
honestly, this is not in reaction to Areso vs. Stuhl, it simply acted as a fantastic example. I think that the practice of forcing the spinners to decide whether their opponents are dq'ed/part of their videos removed should be dismissed all together.
This is not just a world tournament problem, as this rule is broken constantly in the battle-zone. I think that we need to decide whether the rule should be automatically forced, or removed entirely. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 17:58:24
its simple really
you don't go public when there's a conflict,
you resolve it in private with the organizer and the judges and you tell the public the final verdict.
then nobody needs to know who said what. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 18:07:22
and if your using the ladder bot?
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Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 18:15:22
If we had clear cut rules we wouldn't need to solve anything like this, its a lot simpler then resolving it privately, since it avoids the issue entirely.
Really rules shouldn't be allowed to be waived by a participant.
If its video time length rule I think it should be dropped entirely, its hardly an advantage to make a video longer then 30 seconds, its harder to film since you have more chances to mess up, it bores people, it doesn't increase scores in difficulty by extending a combo etc. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 18:19:51QUOTE (Sadistic @ Feb 22 2009, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>and if your using the ladder bot?
the ladder bot is missing a lot of stuff, u can only do basic 1vs1 battles with it, don't count on itQUOTE (Awesome @ Feb 22 2009, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If we had clear cut rules we wouldn't need to solve anything like this, its a lot simpler then resolving it privately, since it avoids the issue entirely.
Really rules shouldn't be allowed to be waived by a participant.
we dont have that many conflicts to begin with we can deal with each seperately
the reason the rules are here is more of suggestion, if we didnt put 25 secs rules, ppl can start abusing, if we put it, you know ppl wont make ridiculously long videos for sure. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 18:24:12QUOTE (Zombo @ Feb 22 2009, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the ladder bot is missing a lot of stuff, u can only do basic 1vs1 battles with it, don't count on it
we dont have that many conflicts to begin with we can deal with each seperately
the reason the rules are here is more of suggestion, if we didnt put 25 secs rules, ppl can start abusing, if we put it, you know ppl wont make ridiculously long videos for sure.
But each conflict gets people pissed off, it takes effort. Shouldn't the goal be to have no conflicts? -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 18:47:24
In the World Tournament 2007, Japanese spinners were accusing me of making too long videos [35+ seconds]. A couple of problems were made because of that.
People will complain either way. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 18:52:24QUOTE (Awesome @ Feb 22 2009, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>But each conflict gets people pissed off, it takes effort. Shouldn't the goal be to have no conflicts?
obviously no conflict is the best, but theres gonna be conflicts so.. we just need to resolve them
imo its not worth it being super strict with the rules for a competition liek this, where the goal is to have fun and show off what you can do... -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 18:54:01
In society, there will always be rules. But at the same time, in society, rules will always be broken. Since these rules are broken sometimes, we should just discard them completely?
As Zombo has stated before, the rules are like a suggestion, a guideline. We can make the majority abide by them if they exist, and the few who don't... and break the rules... well, once again, as zombo has said before, we'll just deal with each issue separately and find out if one of the contestants is to be DQ'ed or not. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 19:43:53QUOTE (JC @ Feb 22 2009, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In society, there will always be rules. But at the same time, in society, rules will always be broken. Since these rules are broken sometimes, we should just discard them completely?
No. If we let people kill and steal, will that solve crime problems? No. The only reason that laws work is because they are backed by punishment. The same needs to happen in UPSB. If there is no set consequence of breaking a time rule in a battle, than that rule is as good as nothing. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 20:01:54QUOTE (G.lanz @ Feb 22 2009, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>No. If we let people kill and steal, will that solve crime problems? No. The only reason that laws work is because they are backed by punishment. The same needs to happen in UPSB. If there is no set consequence of breaking a time rule in a battle, than that rule is as good as nothing.
There doesn't need to be a set consequence for every time a rule is broken, we can just as easily deal with each case on it's own and take into consideration factors specific to that particular case and make appropriate consequences or allow for the rule to just be overlooked if it's not a big deal. If someone simply jay walks in front of a cop, a cop's not gonna bother giving him a ticket (in most places)...
It's just best to take each case on it's own.gif)
and not be like, okay, 0.5 sec over or 5 sec over, it doesn't matter, it all results in DQ. The 0.5 sec over... imo, could just be overlooked -.-'' it's not a big deal. But then again, we should look at each individual case as its own...
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Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 20:04:10
i dunno man, i know how pen spinners are, the tournament is made by pen spinners for pen spinners, and pretty much all competitors know and respect everybody else,
if we start cracking on the rules tightly it makes the atmosphere really tense, i don't tihnk we need that
this is an important competition but I think we can rely on honor system a bit more. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 20:20:10QUOTE (Awesome @ Feb 22 2009, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>But each conflict gets people pissed off, it takes effort. Shouldn't the goal be to have no conflicts?
Wouldn't the whole world be better without any conflict? To have no conflict at all is completely unrealistic. I think relaxed rules and a good atmosphere is better for all concerned than strictness and tension. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 20:30:53
Then instead of saying "all videos need to be under 25 seconds"
shouldn't it say " videos should be around 25 seconds max"
the way the rule is worded now makes it sound enforced, if we want to rely on the honor system and have a relaxed atmosphere, shouldn't rules like a time limit be worded like a suggestion.
Really I am all for dropping the time limit rule altogether, and just recommend the spinners to make combos around a time limit. I think having a time limit kinda restricts the really good spinners, if they can make a 40 second combo and keep it interesting without repeating stuff, why not let them? -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 20:52:54
I agree with awesome ..
but a time limit over 40 seconds could be too much ..
fast spinners would repeat their stuff too often ..
30 seconds or 35 seconds would be enough to make everyone happy
gz cer0 -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 21:21:13QUOTE (Awesome @ Feb 22 2009, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Then instead of saying "all videos need to be under 25 seconds"
shouldn't it say " videos should be around 25 seconds max"
the way the rule is worded now makes it sound enforced, if we want to rely on the honor system and have a relaxed atmosphere, shouldn't rules like a time limit be worded like a suggestion.
Really I am all for dropping the time limit rule altogether, and just recommend the spinners to make combos around a time limit. I think having a time limit kinda restricts the really good spinners, if they can make a 40 second combo and keep it interesting without repeating stuff, why not let them?
now thats just arguing semantics dude
the difference between around and under is not that big. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 22:25:48
yeah there is, ones a guideline, the other one is implying you will enforce it and there is no lee way. If it said around there is no way someone would even think of not allowing a 1/2 second over video video.
Little things like that do change the meaning quite a bit, semantically as it is =/ -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 22:29:50QUOTE (Awesome @ Feb 22 2009, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>yeah there is, ones a guideline, the other one is implying you will enforce it and there is no lee way. If it said around there is no way someone would even think of not allowing a 1/2 second over video video.
Little things like that do change the meaning quite a bit, semantically as it is =/
you always gotta think one step ahead of the readers, cuz you can expect them to relax the rules anyway.
if you say under, they're gonna think +/- 0,5 s, if you around they might think +/- 5 secs now
it's like saying speed limit is 100, ppl will take it as driving 110 is safe.
when I put video deadlines for collabs, I know for sure ppl will not respect them, so I put the deadline 2-3 days in advance, so that ppl submit at the correct day I want. -
Date: Sun, Feb 22 2009 22:49:14QUOTE (Zombo @ Feb 22 2009, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>you always gotta think one step ahead of the readers, cuz you can expect them to relax the rules anyway.
if you say under, they're gonna think +/- 0,5 s, if you around they might think +/- 5 secs now
it's like saying speed limit is 100, ppl will take it as driving 110 is safe.
when I put video deadlines for collabs, I know for sure ppl will not respect them, so I put the deadline 2-3 days in advance, so that ppl submit at the correct day I want.
I see what you're getting at, but you can't expect everyone to relax rules like that, I can't really think of a better way though since that is what the majority does.