UPSB v3
Advanced Tricks / Difference between Neobackaround & Shadow Reverse
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Date: Mon, Oct 29 2007 05:01:54
Neobackarounds should touch the back of the hand, or atleast go up on the base knuckles. Fingerless Shadows Reverse just spin on the backs of the fingers.
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Date: Mon, Oct 29 2007 17:31:28
Would not the starting and catch positions be different too? Seeing a NeoBack starts with the pen in the same position as if you would do a regular BackAround, with the pen slightly "tilted" and kind of resting in TF. A Shadow on the other hand starts with the pen paralell to the hand and all under the fingers.
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Date: Mon, Oct 29 2007 17:48:20
I don't know how important the hand position is anymore. As far as I know, the catch should be about the same, Neobaks were just traditionally caught at the base of the fingers, but I don't see why that would be important anymore.
If anything, I can agree that the starting position could be important if Neobak needs to be in that starting position.
For me, the real defining part of Neobackaround (and Backaround) that distinguishes them from existing tricks is the use of the back of the hand. Since other tricks can be performed with different push/catch hand positions, I don't see a need to strict in that regard.
Shadow has just had the same starting position as Sonic. You can perform a Sonic and a Shadow with the pen starting perpendicular to the fingers. It looks bad, but the Shadow would still technically be a hybrid of the first half or a Sonic, a topspin and the seoond half of a Sonic. A messed up Charge rotation will still be performed.
So...yeah. I can't answer your question.
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Date: Fri, Nov 9 2007 17:43:59
Is 'korean' used only for backaround? cus a reverse shadow would kind of be a korean neo backaround, right? or am i just making things more complicated?
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Date: Fri, Nov 9 2007 18:23:43
I think you would be right. A korean neobackaround would just be the same thing as a fl shadow reverse.
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Date: Fri, Nov 9 2007 18:40:28QUOTE (Leviathan @ Nov 9 2007, 06:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think you would be right. A korean neobackaround would just be the same thing as a fl shadow reverse.
If Korean NeoBakAround means the same as FL Shadow Reverse (which I also agree it would be implied it would do), why make any confusion at all? Just use FL Shadow Reverse. -
Date: Fri, Nov 9 2007 18:51:24
I agree. We shouldn't be using "korean" as a modifier.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 01:05:56
in my opinion, the only difference is that neobackaround is done with a tilted hand while reverse shadow is done completely palm down.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 06:32:37
So for a NeoBak fall, I read somewhere(forget) that it was easier to do it with Korean Neobackarounds because the passes are easier.
Would this make it FL rev. shadow fall?
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Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 13:35:12QUOTE (Lucky 13 @ Nov 10 2007, 06:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So for a NeoBak fall, I read somewhere(forget) that it was easier to do it with Korean Neobackarounds because the passes are easier.
Would this make it FL rev. shadow fall?
Just don't use 'Korean' as a modifier. It's either NeoBackArounds, that are touching the back of the hand, or it's Fingerless Shadows, that are spinning on top of the fingers. -
Date: Sat, Nov 10 2007 16:15:20
IMO, Shadow Reverse and NeoBackaround are the same trick, executed differently. Also, Bak really shouldn't be used to describe BOTH types of Backarounds. Bak should be Korean and Backaround should be Weissian.
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Date: Sun, Nov 11 2007 06:00:49
No, nate. Bak is just a short form of the BackAround, just like Rev for Reverse, IA for IndexAround, etc. Bak was first used as a short form for the original BackAround, so it should not be used otherwise to avoid confusion.
Regarding the topic of Shadow Reverse vs NeoBackAround and Korean BackAround vs Weissian BackAround, IMO, the only difference between them is the location the pen spins at. NeoBackAround is essentially similar to the Fingerless Shadow Reverse and BackAround to Fingerless IndexAround Reverse (the Korean BackAround is Fingerless IndexAround Reverse). Their push, spin type and their catch are very similar, in fact, almost identical. As for whether the spin location itself justifies the unique name, I shall not comment. The BackAround and NeoBackAround were thought to be different from other tricks at the time when they were created and, therefore, named differently. Their similarities with variations of existing tricks were discovered only recently. -
Date: Sun, Nov 11 2007 15:23:08
i can't help wondering if any of this matters. i mean korean/weissian - it's the same trick performed in different styles and i really think that the individual spinner's style should be encouraged more in this community. pinning things down and telling someone they're doing a korean backaround so they must call their trick a bak seems very odd to me. they're doing a trick in the style that they've developed.
maybe i'm getting OT -
Date: Sun, Nov 11 2007 17:39:18QUOTE (asakawa @ Nov 11 2007, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i can't help wondering if any of this matters. i mean korean/weissian - it's the same trick performed in different styles and i really think that the individual spinner's style should be encouraged more in this community. pinning things down and telling someone they're doing a korean backaround so they must call their trick a bak seems very odd to me. they're doing a trick in the style that they've developed.
maybe i'm getting OT
The real question is, are Weisen and Korean BackArounds different enough to be called different tricks? For me, yes they are, however, 'Korean' BackAround does not need a new name, it's not a new trick, but simply a Fingerless [finger]Around Reverse. -
Date: Mon, Nov 12 2007 06:55:47
Heaven forbid, THEY'RE THE SAME TRICK. That's why there's just shadows, and not Shadow rev's. It just becomes one less bit of naming we need to worry about.
My Philosophy
Neobak=FL Shadow Rev, no need for more naming
As for the Korean/Weisan controversy
weisan implies that the pen goes around the KNUCKLE
Korean implies it goes around the FINGER
Technically, the neoBACKAROUND not neobak, is a seperate trick from the shadow since it involves a Charge motion of a PUSH -
Date: Mon, Nov 12 2007 07:23:10QUOTE (iMatt @ Nov 12 2007, 06:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As for the Korean/Weisan controversy
weisan implies that the pen goes around the KNUCKLE
Korean implies it goes around the FINGER
So you are saying we should use 'Korean' as a modifier?
Hmm. What would a trick be that involves a Charge push like Shadow, spins on the knuckle, and then is caught the same as a NeoBak? -
Date: Mon, Nov 12 2007 07:47:56
iMatt: why have multiple names? It would be even easier to keep Shadow as Shadow and Fingeraround as Fingeraround.
Shadow Normal
Shadow Reverse
Fingerless Shadow Normal
Fingerless Shadow Reverse
Simple. There's no reason to bring the name Korean Neobackaround into this. The above names make sense in describing what is happening.
Fingeraround (Index, Middle, Ring, Pinky)
Fingeraround Normal
Fingeraround Reverse
Fingerless Fingeraround Normal
Fingerless Fingeraround Reverse
Simple. There's no reason to bring the name Korean Backaround into this. The above names make sense in describing what is happening.QUOTEHold your hand with your fingers pointing up at the ceiling, now rest the pen/pencil in between the middle and index finger so that it balances there. This is essentially the center point of the trick. We want to find this balance point to determine the easiest starting position. Now, roll the pencil around the index finger to where you can pinch and hold it between the side of your thumb joint and the side of your index knuckle. This is the starting position. To start the spin release the pen by moving the thumb out of the way and smoothly turn your hand down so the pencil rolls back to the balance point that we found. The momentum should send the pencil around to the back of the hand as you continue to turn your hand down. If you can get to this point of the trick, you may end up with the pencil just sitting on the back of your hand, eventually you will make this motion smoother and it will continue around the index knuckle and you will be able to catch it. - David Weis
The underlined bit is the only thing that makes Backaround any different from a Fingerless Fingeraround with a funny hand twist in the first place. The back of the hand is involved to give a reason to including the "back" in the names. As I've said before, we don't call other tricks by different names just because of a different hand position (vertical, horizontal, whatever), there's no reason to continue doing so here. If you really want to keep things simple, forget about the back of the hand and get rid of the names Backaround and Neobackaround all together. If not that, then get rid of the useless Korean "modifier" and instead use already existing names that make much more sense. -
Date: Tue, Nov 13 2007 09:22:42
Yet no one would be able to call a NeoBackaround Fall executed far out on the fingers for a Shadow Reverse Fall, IMO.
NeoBackaround 12-123 -> NeoBackaround 23-234 -> NeoBackaround 34-34 (executed far out on the fingers), can't be executed with Shadows, since a Shadow executed from the position you catch the pen in from the previous NeoBackaround would be just that; another NeoBackaround. -
Date: Tue, Nov 13 2007 16:43:32
Neobackaround doesn't have an under-the-finger component, which brings me to my next gripe: Neobackaround Fall. Like Sonic Rise/Fall, Neobackaround Fall really should be comprised of just Neobaks, which would make it: Neobak 12-23 > Neobak 23-34. But no, we have to include the Fingerless Pass/Passaround Reverse/whatever portion and make them hybrids. If we can perform Neobak Fall as hybrids, there no reason to not perform Shadows as hybrids. Of course, Fingerless Shadow Reverse Fall could just be: FL Shadow Rev 12-23 > FL Shadow Rev 23-34.
I'm not completely sure what you mean by your last sentence Sfsr. -
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 02:23:34
imo, in a neobackaround, you start with your index finger facing the ceiling, then use the turning motion of your hand so that it spins and catching it with the back of your hand facing the ceiling. For shadow you just start with the back of your handing facing the ceiling and catch it like that.
and backaround does not = bak
bak= korean bak
thats why neobak fall is called neobak -
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 03:06:28QUOTE (t3tsubo @ Nov 15 2007, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>and backaround does not = bak
bak= korean bak
thats why neobak fall is called neobak
No. Bak is what is called an abbreviation...for Backaround.
Neobak is an abbreviation for Neobackaround.
Korean Backaround = Fingerless Fingeraround Reverse -
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 03:23:53
uhh we have to be careful, in the case of neobak, I think it's a backronym, because we used neobak before neo-backaround (or neo-backaround is very rarely used).
It's like baktap and bakflip. I've never heard anyone use backaroundtap or backaroundflip. -
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 03:29:54
sketching checks to see if "backronym" is an actual word
...yeah, it is.
I didn't know that the name, Neobak, came first. Why didn't you put that in the wiki Zombo! -
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 04:27:45
Ok maybe not,
David Weis uses Neo-Backaround on all his descriptions so...
but as far as UPSB is concerned, we always refered to it as Neobak. -
Date: Fri, Nov 16 2007 18:02:59
I've always assumed bak to mean back of the hand. So backaround would be back of the hand around, and bak tap would a tap on the back of the hand, not backaroundtap.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17 2007 18:30:11QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 15 2007, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Ok maybe not,
David Weis uses Neo-Backaround on all his descriptions so...
but as far as UPSB is concerned, we always referred to it as Neobak.
Some examples of Neo-Bak being used to abbreviate Neo-Backaround
from the "Combo" section of http://pencininja.davidweis.com
(at some point the unnecessary hyphens were no longer used)
Sonic to Backaround Rise
Technically, this is a 34sonic to 23Backaround1.5 to sonic to Backaround. The 23Backaround must be performed with at least 1.5 spins to travel the distance around the hand smoothly. The most difficult prerequisite for this trick is the 23Backaround1.5. Learning the Backaround and the Neo-Backaround variations (23neo-bak34, 23neo-bak23, 23neo-bak12) will be help for this trick and other complex combos.
Sonic to Neo-Backaround to 23Neo-Backaround34 to Sonic Rise to Backaround
The Neo-Bak to 23Neo-Bak(any catch) is a very difficult combo to learn. First learn to spin a Neo-Bak to a catch on the back of the hand between the middle and index finger as you would to set up for a Bak-tap. Next learn to lift the middle finger to allow the pencil to spin under it. As the pencil spins under the middle finger drop the angle of the hand downward and pull it back toward your body, this will allow the pencil to spin out between 23 without falling or losing momentum. For this combo the 34 catch was used to set up for the Sonic Rise to Bak.
Consecutive Sonic Rise to Neo-Backaround34s to Sonic Rise to Backaround
(This trick can now be seen in the www.BookofCool.com trailer video.)
The difficult aspect of this combo is the Neo-Backaround34 catch. The pencil must carry momentum so that it spins under the pinky and translates into momentum into the 34sonic as the hand is turned over. It is also important to catch the pencil high on the pinky finger to be positioned correctly for the 34Sonic. As a prerequisite learn the shorter continuous combo, Neo-Bak23 to sonic, and progress to the Neo-Bak34 to sonic Rise from there.