UPSB v3
Naming Committee / [topic][5.21] Spreads
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Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 03:20:50
Hello, I'm new to the RD and i've read those READ ME threads... but i'm still not sure if i'm doing it right
but here i go:
Spreads need english naming conventions in case they get popular. There is THIS thread that discussed what they are, but there are no formal definitions or breakdown conventions. so i wrote this up:
Spoiler:
What does the RD think?
-Jamie -
Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 03:26:46
by symbol, you mean slot?
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Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 03:34:21
yes?
whatever slot the pen lands in starts with a "-"
"-" shows the end of a sequence... i think -
Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 03:39:04
use the term slot instead of symbol, symbol can mean anything.
basic notation is slot1-slot2, where slot1 is the starting slot of the trick, slot2 is the ending slot of the trick. -
Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 03:44:13
ok, because it needs momentum from another trick, does that mean it only has a "slot2"?
they start via hybrid, and end with a catch, does that make sense? -
Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 11:39:22
it only means you using ~ meaning it doesnt have its own push.
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Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 15:36:42QUOTE (Zombo @ Mar 20 2009, 06:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>it only means you using ~ meaning it doesnt have its own push.
what? could you clarify, i didn't understand -
Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 17:03:31
trick1 ~ trick2 means trick2 doesn't have its own push because it follows from trick1
trick1 > tirck2 means trick2 has its own push and trick1 was caught completely
trick1 ~> trick2 means trick2 has its own push but trick1 was not complete.
look at interrupted notation article for more details. -
Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 23:48:06
ahhh...
sorry, fixed
I'll read it asap -
Date: Wed, Apr 15 2009 21:38:27
That was a bit confusing to me.
QUOTE>> Example: Thumb around T2 ~ Spread 21-12
If you tap the pen with the middle finger, for example, that would be a Spread 2-XX, right?
Example: Thumbaround T2-T2 ~ Spread 2-12
2 instead of "21" (12 btw), because you push the pen with only one finger (well, you can do the push with 2 fingers or more, of course).QUOTE“T†has three notations:
1. being pushed by thumb via a tap
You mean something like Thumbaround Release > Spread T-T1?QUOTE2. when the spread ends with the pen landing on the back of the thumb and the momentum of the pen making the pen do the second half of a thumb around normal and ultimately lands in the thumb flap
Wouldn't that be, for example:
Thumbaround Release > Spread 4-T1 ~ Fl TA 0.5 T-TF ?QUOTE3. when the pen lands on the back of the thumb and the momentum of the pen makes the pen do the second half of a thumb around normal and then the momentum is transferred to another finger, then tapped by that one
For example TA Release > Spread 3-T1 ~ Fl TA 0.5 T-T2 ~ Spread 2-T1 ?
---------------------------
Maybe you wanted to say this? I couldn't see the videos, so maybe I'm wrong.
EDIT: I added the 0.5 revolutions to the Fl TA -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 05:27:44
honestly i just think spreads are around releases
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Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 17:29:27QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Apr 15 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>honestly i just think spreads are around releases
Nah. They look like it, but they're not. They're more like backhand bounces and such, but done with the finger. -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 18:20:11
Exactly. Somewhere here I read that you where talking about Backhand Bounces, and Sketching said something about an "Index Pop".
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Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 18:48:54QUOTEIf you tap the pen with the middle finger, for example, that would be a Spread 2-XX, right?
Example: Thumbaround T2-T2 ~ Spread 2-12
2 instead of "21" (12 btw), because you push the pen with only one finger (well, you can do the push with 2 fingers or more, of course).
the "21" shows that it is first hit with the middle finger, then the index. "12" would be the index, then middle (which is not what I was implying)
each "1, 2, 3, 4, T" that is written after the "Spread" and before the "-XX" is a different tap. so "Spread 2222222222-XX" would be ten taps on the middle finger. "Spread 1234-XX" would have a total of 4 hits before being caught and so would "Spread 4231-XX"
the video should help, i'll upload it somewhere else.QUOTEYou mean something like Thumbaround Release > Spread T-T1?
yes, that would be an example. but an easier way to grasp this concept would be to see the thumb tap during a sequence. that would look like some sort of cont ta release trick.QUOTEWouldn't that be, for example:
Thumbaround Release > Spread 4-T1 ~ Fl TA 0.5 T-TF ?
no, i think you misunderstand the end of the notation.
here is how i would put it in kind of your terms:
Thumbaround Release > Spread 4 ~ Fl TA 0.5 T-TF
make sense?
i'll get the video in a sec!
.
..
and Shadow, explain your idea please. -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 18:59:28QUOTEthe "21" shows that it is first hit with the middle finger, then the index. "12" would be the index, then middle (which is not what I was implying)
each "1, 2, 3, 4, T" that is written after the "Spread" and before the "-XX" is a different tap. so "Spread 2222222222-XX" would be ten taps on the middle finger. "Spread 1234-XX" would have a total of 4 hits before being caught and so would "Spread 4231-XX"
I understand now, but that is Japanese notation. Using ours, that 12 seems to me that you push the pen with both index and middle finger at the same time.
So I think it's more understandable to breakdown that Spread 4231-XX as:
Spread 4 > Spread 2 > Spread 3 > Spread 1-XXQUOTEno, i think you misunderstand the end of the notation.
here is how i would put it in kind of your terms:
Thumbaround Release > Spread 4 ~ Fl TA 0.5 T-TF
Well yes, I think you're right there because in the Spread 4-T1 ~ Fl TA 0.5 T-TF that I said , the "-T1" is not very relevant. -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 19:02:28
well i thought the japanese notation was short, so i worked around it
and also, in your notation, i think you would need a "~" instead of the ">"
but nothing is concrete yet
-
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 22:07:29
i know what a spread is, i just think the act of hitting the pen in that manner could be denoted as a fingeraround release
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Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 22:26:25QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Apr 16 2009, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i know what a spread is, i just think the act of hitting the pen in that manner could be denoted as a fingeraround release
Why? It doesn't go around the finger. -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 22:30:39QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 16 2009, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Why? It doesn't go around the finger.
thats what i was thinking.
And in the sense of a release... you're not actually holding the pen between 2 fingers. its more of a "pop" than a "release" -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 22:50:29
it doesnt have to go around the finger, if you continued the motion it COULD go around the finger, but we release it
i'm just thinking in terms of what we already have. other than that, we could bring a new official notation for "pop" or "hit"
but the "spread" notation, i highly disagree with. they're simple combos, and all we need to do is notate the core trick, which is the finger tap thing
im for pop -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 23:27:22QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Apr 16 2009, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>it doesnt have to go around the finger, if you continued the motion it COULD go around the finger, but we release it
i'm just thinking in terms of what we already have. other than that, we could bring a new official notation for "pop" or "hit"
but the "spread" notation, i highly disagree with. they're simple combos, and all we need to do is notate the core trick, which is the finger tap thing
im for pop
But spreads fall under bounce tricks, don't they? -
Date: Thu, Apr 16 2009 23:44:29
i didnt even know that was an official category
-
Date: Fri, Apr 17 2009 02:44:25
i don't like the notation i proposed,
any one can change it.
and Spread 1234-12 is easy and clear
the problem is "T" -
Date: Sat, Apr 18 2009 00:31:02QUOTE (Jamie Enns @ Apr 16 2009, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i don't like the notation i proposed,
any one can change it.
and Spread 1234-12 is easy and clear
the problem is "T"
Yeah, such notation is fine. Especially since spread is so commonly used now, no point trying to make people use index pop etc. -
Date: Sat, Apr 18 2009 02:19:49
spreads are combos, why are we trying to notate it as a trick?
it doesn't leave room for any variation
Spread 1234-12 is fine informally, but we still need to be able to break it down
i can just as easily do a spread from an IA, inverse shadow rev, or even any aerial -
Date: Sat, Apr 18 2009 06:16:59
true, i never said it was only from a thumbaround
my weak definition the spread just stated it needed another trick to link from.
this was my attempt of formalizing the popular convention that (tries to) make the informal/japanese-ish notation that was already around, constantly make sense.
and i suposes if you wanted to REALLY break it down, finger(index, middle, ring, pinky, thumb)-tap/pop makes the most sense, not too sure about an "around" though, considering how little the pen goes around the finger (e.g. index around 0.25 > air [bad example i know
] ).
what do you propose? -
Date: Sat, Apr 18 2009 06:58:01
i propose pop
yeah like i said, spread notation is fine but in the end it's still a combo and we should have some means of breaking it down -
Date: Sat, Apr 18 2009 17:34:54
i;m fine with that
+1 for pop -
Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 19:45:50
I'd say it's a bounce, really. Like Backhand Bounce. Don't see why it should suddenly be named pop, especially since something like Elbow Pop already exists, which is completely different.
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Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 20:32:08
actually... that makes alot of sense...
and now that i think of it, an index pop is very possible
okay i vote bounce -
Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 21:01:32
tooo true
i take back pop and go bounce. -
Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 20:37:42
I agree ,spreads are simple bounce
for example, spread 1234-T1 could be written "index bounce => middle bounce => ring bounce => pinky bounce (catch T1)". -
Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 21:00:10
ok... im just gonna throw it out there
and excuse my noobness
but
i dont see how a spread is a bounce...
i mean when i picture a bounce...i see a ball bouncing or something of that sort
but spreads are more of a hit/strike/stroke/etc...
just me tho -
Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 21:16:00
well, i did propose tap, but a backhand bounce is ridiculously similar and has a name that is accepted.
I like the first Verb definition here:
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=bounce
where it says in the brackets: "spring away from an impact" -
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 14:30:06
I always thought about bounces like a trick like that : "aerial => the pen tuch a part of the han during a a few moment => aerial => catch".
Also, there is no convention to describe a bounce which does change the rotation of the pen... So it would be better to make the difference between "bounce" (which does not change the rotation of the pen, like spreads in the video for example) and "bounce reverse" (I have not understand everything in the topic so these tricks could have been name spreads reverse, I do not know...
oh, and I saw others difficulties with the bounce notation, but it is to hard to describe... I'll make a video.
EDIT : my post may be confuse ^^ But I changed my mind... I am sure spreads could be breakdowned as bounces but spreads are not bounces for the moment, the notation should be changed... I'll make a video. -
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 22:26:47
I like the idea of bounce because we already have the term backhand bounce. Bounce was what I first used to notate spreads (before I realized what they were ages ago) and I still think they are the most appropriate.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22 2009 08:40:16
I agree with you, but there is a difference with spreads.
I also use the notation "bounce" since a long time (my favourite finish is "ta release => palm bounce (catch 12)"), but spreads are not exactly the same if you look in this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzytuNlW9vU
You can see that there is three way to make a finger bounce (I named these way normal, inverse and side), and they all are not a spread.
What is the fundamental difference ? Both tricks (spreads and finger bounces) are made like this :
"aerial => the pen tuch a finger during a few moment => aerial"
So, the difference is that in a bounce, the few moment with the pen tuching a finger is a part of a spin (in the middle bounce normal, this is a part of a middle spin, in the inverse middle bounce, this is a part of an inverse middle spin and in the side middle bounce, this is a part of a middle side spin); but in a spread, the few moment with the pen tuching a finger is a part of an around (in the spread 2-12, this is a part of a middlearound for example).
That make all the difference; spreads are not finger bounces. Bounces are using parts of spins, spreads are using parts of arounds.
But I still agree with Charlie, these tricks are really similar so I am sure they could be breakdowned as bounces tricks, but I do not know how.
Personnaly, I would have written something like "Thumbaround release T1-12 ~ middlaround release 2-12" to describe the "thumbaround release => spread 2-12" in my video. That does not use any bounces but I think it describes the trick.
For JE => I am not sure I used exactly the convention you have written when I breakdowned the spread in my video because my english is bad and I have not understand all in your first post, sorry ^^
(I filmed the last trick in my video to show that spreads can also change the rotation of the pen, I do not know if something like this has been shown before) -
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 17:19:47
Recovery:
as I said, we could classify those "Spreads" as Fingerless Fingeraround Releases or Finger Bounces.
normal, inverse and side Finger Bounces are the same trick but done on Palm Side, Palm Down..., IMO.