UPSB v3
General Discussion / World Tournament 2009 - Quarterfinals - Videos OUT!
-
Date: Thu, Apr 2 2009 12:35:55
http://www.alexsimpsononline.com/rounds.html
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Results will be posted up by Sunday 12th April.
DOWNLOAD: http://www.upsb.info/WT09/R4/
Matchup Thread -
Date: Sat, Apr 4 2009 13:18:18
dang fratleym got his video out so soon.. his combo looks awsome to me.
-
Date: Sat, Apr 4 2009 23:17:21
-
Date: Sat, Apr 4 2009 23:21:28
HOLY SHI-
man im going with minwoo -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 01:44:24
Although Minwoo had some nice 1p2h stuff. Fratleym's combo simply amazed me this round. One of the best I've ever seen. Go Fratleym!
-
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 01:48:42
Fratleym's combo kicked ass, but Minwoo's combo kicked harder. xD
-
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 01:50:13
Both of them has beautiful combos. I like fratleym's crosshand style.
-
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 01:51:11
Minwoo is just ridiculous.
he has this round imo. -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 01:58:18QUOTE (IAmTheMrGuy @ Apr 4 2009, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Although Minwoo had some nice 1p2h stuff, Fratleym's combo simply amazed me this round. One of the best I've ever seen. Go Fratleym!
I didn't see anything that amazing from fratleym aside from his fingercross concept which he's used before. It looks like he screwed up a bit too at 00:17, when he's doing the fingercross.
Then again, I was never a fan of Fratleym's spinning. -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 02:57:38QUOTE (SJ @ Apr 4 2009, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>HOLY SHI-
man im going with minwoo
yea 0:06 totally took it away -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 16:38:15QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 4 2009, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I didn't see anything that amazing from fratleym aside from his fingercross concept which he's used before. It looks like he screwed up a bit too at 00:17, when he's doing the fingercross.
Then again, I was never a fan of Fratleym's spinning.
If you go this way...: I didn't see anything that amazing from Minwoo aside from his spins transerfts which he's used before....
They both use concepts they used in the further round, but not the same way...and aside the spins transferts I don't find the linkage from Minwoo are so amazing...The combo from Minwoo is more : "wouaaah" but I think the linkages of Fratleym's combo are more researched that those of Minwoo... -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 17:05:14
this is Answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO7rDECgmcQ (bad YT quality imo, maybe itll improve later)
and we have taeryong also, not up yet (~22 seconds video this time) -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 17:09:19QUOTE (Tails @ Apr 5 2009, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you go this way...: I didn't see anything that amazing from Minwoo aside from his spins transerfts which he's used before....
They both use concepts they used in the further round, but not the same way...and aside the spins transferts I don't find the linkage from Minwoo are so amazing...The combo from Minwoo is more : "wouaaah" but I think the linkages of Fratleym's combo are more researched that those of Minwoo...
You have a point there. So, let's examine their combos for a bit. To me, most of fratleym's combo was rather disappointing aside from the 00:15 fingercrossing section. Nothing really noteworthy, creative or difficult. At least, I didn't notice anything. But as I've already pointed, there was a slip-up during the fingercrossing section. That's worth mentioning. Feel free to disagree.
Minwoo starts off with some inv shadow > neobaks which I suppose is not that amazing of a starter (especially compared to his last vids), but it's a whole lot better than a backaround from Fratleym. The combo really starts picking up with 00:06 with the IA (Right Hand) ~ Shadow Rev (Left Hand) (Something like that). Yes, he's done spin transfers before, but this one is a nice variation of his usual spin transfers. There's another spin transfer which is actually just a very slight variation of his first spin transfer afterwards. Yet, the real highlight of the combo is at 00:15, where there are transfers one right after the other that utilize the concept of space (something rarely done) quite well. And the TA Reverse (Right Hand) to Handaround (Left Hand) was just badass. I didn't like the palmspin at the end, but minwoo loves his palmspins.
Thus, overall, I do feel that minwoo has the better structured combo. It's more difficult, creative, and has a hell more of an oomph and wow than Fratleym's combo does.
EDIT
Wow, answer's combo was reallynice. It's too bad the quality isn't that great. -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 17:16:33
http://upsb.info/WT09/R4/
better quality -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 17:30:30
holy shit minwoo....
he got this one -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 18:25:36QUOTEYou have a point there. So, let's examine their combos for a bit. To me, most of fratleym's combo was rather disappointing aside from the 00:15 fingercrossing section. Nothing really noteworthy, creative or difficult. At least, I didn't notice anything. But as I've already pointed, there was a slip-up during the fingercrossing section. That's worth mentioning. Feel free to disagree.
Minwoo starts off with some inv shadow > neobaks which I suppose is not that amazing of a starter (especially compared to his last vids), but it's a whole lot better than a backaround from Fratleym. The combo really starts picking up with 00:06 with the IA (Right Hand) ~ Shadow Rev (Left Hand) (Something like that). Yes, he's done spin transfers before, but this one is a nice variation of his usual spin transfers. There's another spin transfer which is actually just a very slight variation of his first spin transfer afterwards. Yet, the real highlight of the combo is at 00:15, where there are transfers one right after the other that utilize the concept of space (something rarely done) quite well. And the TA Reverse (Right Hand) to Handaround (Left Hand) was just badass. I didn't like the palmspin at the end, but minwoo loves his palmspins.
Thus, overall, I do feel that minwoo has the better structured combo. It's more difficult, creative, and has a hell more of an oomph and wow than Fratleym's combo does.
Well
You're a bit subjective doing this comparison, you compared mine in 3 lines and his in 7 lines. I mean ok I've done some easy stuff for me in this combo but don't think this fingercross was easy for me. Going to the fingercross position is not so hard but I do think that I deserve a "wow" for the ta reverse done the fingercross way. I mean it's the only time I made it this smooth, it was truly hard to do it.
And also, you judge only by seeing the technical stuff, where's the style sight? It's pretty important in a combo, we're spinners, not breakdown master. The feeling is much more important according to me. I'm not saying my combo is more stylish, I'm saying that your judging has a lack of that. -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 18:47:49
Why does anyone see the problem in Fratleym's combo (fingercross) and not those in Minwoo's ?? I mean :
00:10 : palmspin spins not that well, Minwoo has to force the spin
00:19 : He has to do 2 thumbcharges reverse to keep control of his pen
00:21 : WTF ??!! why does he do this palmspin at the end ??? Whit that he will lose points in effectivness
Fratleym's :
00:17-00:19 : fingercross has a lack of smoothness
If you compare...not so much problems in Fratleym's combo...
And Fratleym's pointed out something important : The style, which is part of the effectivness...IMO Fratleym has much more style than Minwoo...I do not say that Minwoo hasn't style...I only say that Fratleym is more master of his style than Minwoo is of his own... -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 18:56:38QUOTE (FratleymメFS @ Apr 5 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well
You're a bit subjective doing this comparison, you compared mine in 3 lines and his in 7 lines. I mean ok I've done some easy stuff for me in this combo but don't think this fingercross was easy for me. Going to the fingercross position is not so hard but I do think that I deserve a "wow" for the ta reverse done the fingercross way. I mean it's the only time I made it this smooth, it was truly hard to do it.
And also, you judge only by seeing the technical stuff, where's the style sight? It's pretty important in a combo, we're spinners, not breakdown master. The feeling is much more important according to me. I'm not saying my combo is more stylish, I'm saying that your judging has a lack of that.
Style is subjective.
Oh, and I guess I forgot to mention minwoo's mistakes, but I'm sort of used to them now. -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 19:12:28
I have seen Spinnerpeems Combo, he won
-
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 19:29:22QUOTE (Might @ Apr 5 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have seen Spinnerpeems Combo, he won
Have you seen Taeryong's o.0...? If not, how can you be so sure? -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 19:34:03
Hey there,
I do have mistakes in my Combo, probably more than Fratleym and the only thing why I post this, is because some of the people seems to missunderstood some stuff off my Combo ...
I heard of those 4 "Criterias?" and if I am honest I dont really care about them. I still dont understand what Effectivness mean (probably I should but I dont) - Alot of people say I will lose Effectivness points because I did the last Palmspin - and I dont understand why?
After that left Hai Tua the Pen's longer side look outside - perfectly to take the pen with left and rotate into the right hand - probably you guys think: Oh, he does the Palmspin at the end - so he can cut it off if he messed up - I dont really thought so - I just did how Bonkura did on R3 - because I really loved that trick and I never did before =(
@Tails: He has to force his Palmspin on 0:10 .... seriously what? ._.
Like I said I do have mistakes but pointing that as mistake I do not understand ....
Its a Ta to 1 Counter Release to Palmspin 0,5 to 34 I do not seeing me messed up a bit ...
@Charlie: Oh ... Fratleym does have very heavy Parts in his Combo ... probably more "hidden" than my but he had ... I watched it like 100times in 0,13slowmotion ... and what he did after that BA beginning - was IMO killing ... that Stuff with that 34-1 Tw Sonic Wiper to T1 or whatever was of the hook ... after that to me came an easy part but than again that stuff on 34 was very difficult again and than the T3 Cross O_o (like he said came into the position is not hard (well not to me) but that "Ta Rev" and T34 Charge O_O ....
ehm yeah ... whatever - to me: We both gave the best and represent ourselve as good as possible (and still I dont understand why I shouldnt be Master of my own style as Fratleym is above his own ...? >_<)
@Might: Would be cool if you would say that AFTER you saw Taeryong's
-
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 19:38:11
imo your combo ended at the left hand, the palmspin was unnecessary and does very little to add any value to the combo, in fact it makes the combo worse because it's not very well executed.
effectiveness means you each trick to its full potential, this palmspin was not used to its full potential. it looks added on to the combo. -
Date: Sun, Apr 5 2009 19:45:38QUOTE (Minwoo @ Apr 5 2009, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>@Tails: He has to force his Palmspin on 0:10 .... seriously what? ._.
Like I said I do have mistakes but pointing that as mistake I do not understand ....
Its a Ta to 1 Counter Release to Palmspin 0,5 to 34 I do not seeing me messed up a bit ...
ehm yeah ... whatever - to me: We both gave the best and represent ourselve as good as possible (and still I dont understand why I shouldnt be Master of my own style as Fratleym is above his own ...? >_<)
sorry I perhaps misunderstood how you did that trick, forget it ^^' it's a wrong analysis from me ^^'
And that with style...I don't know how to explain it but yeah...I think something is missing in your style that makes it less "mastered" than Fratleym's (IMO !!) but I really can't explain what....so yeah sorry if I hurt you....I love both your style and Fratleym's but I think Fratleym win this round.... -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 03:37:15
Dongza http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_6uTvNgHhY...re=channel_page
Spinnerpeem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQ5Rzh3WO0...re=channel_page
Supawit127:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b761UcjrTg&feature=channel_page
imao, Answer takes this one, supawit had good execution as always, but nothing really impressive other than his fast smooth style -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 04:44:14
Poor Eriror... I don't think he got better.
Minwoo: Whoah! Nice spin transfers there... just improve the execution. The mistakes are killing you.
Fratelym: OMG THAT WAS AWESOME TOO... Although maybe the finger crossing should have been allthroughout the combo with that one really hectic one being the peak. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 07:45:52
OMG @.@ Crazy combo from peem
LOVED supawits combo
Dongza, amazing speed and smoothness, could have been a better finisher, even I could do that but I guess you did do it very smooth :/
Man am I loving this round! -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 08:06:45
woowoow, Minwoo better again this round ， great creative and great technique. love his style. >v<
Answer made 11 AIR in 22s and controlled it well，love his improvement.>v< -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 08:15:55
Dongza : nice as always with his smoothness and speed spinning, but he still need more hard trick to beat other.
Supawit127 : Great! come with better combo structure even not that amazing like Epic Spinners like Frat. or Minwoo but still ook nice and interesting.
Spinnerpeem : crazy kid - - I hate him!! Many nice tricks are show and made me pee a bit lol but still feel bored with some old combo structure that he used it in every combo -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 09:33:51
-
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 09:53:27
After looking through the whole of Youtube
------------------------
Minwoo [GPC] vs. Fratelym [FPSB]
Dongza [THPSC] vs. Answer [PSH]
Supawit127 [THPSC] vs. Eriror [UPSB]
Taeryong [KPSA] vs. Spinnerpeem [THPSC] -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 10:08:29
apart from a few off cam moments and a baaad quality video, i think answer should take this..... hopefully
-
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 10:08:44QUOTE (AzuL @ Apr 6 2009, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
meh too repetitive...
Lol Minwoo got this one. im sure -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 10:34:18
Where Eriror's combo?
His battle very interesting. But i think Supawit127 win -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 11:29:46
I am going with spinnerpeem
-
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 12:29:30QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Apr 6 2009, 02:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>holy shit minwoo....
he got this one
I actually take that back. It's a difficult match. both were pretty serious. I'm more on Minwoo's side though -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 14:20:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_kORwdhQIU
Sorry for the delay guys, my internet was down.
And sorry for the crappy vid guys... I'm ill. >_<; -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 14:43:31
WOWOWOWOWOWOWOW
Minwoo's combo's crazy. The 1p2h thing's like sooo cool. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 15:05:21
It's so fun to see that our battle with Minwoo got the perfect opposite results in FPSB
Why are we so subjective? -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 15:17:00
Updated List
:
------------------------
Minwoo [GPC] vs. Fratelym [FPSB]
Dongza [THPSC] vs. Answer [PSH]
Supawit127 [THPSC] vs. Eriror [UPSB]
Taeryong [KPSA] vs. Spinnerpeem [THPSC]
------------------------
Spinnerpeem, Minwoo and FRATELYM(!!!!) were AmazingQUOTE (FratleymメFS @ Apr 6 2009, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's so fun to see that our battle with Minwoo got the perfect opposite results in FPSB
Why are we so subjective?
You'll win
(hopefully) lol -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 15:46:28
Minwoo with those insanely smooth spin transfers, but the palmspin at the end was unneeded.
Fratleym with those complex linkings and fingercross, but Minwoo's combo would be harder to repeat although he is a master of his own style...
Dongza with his power and speed, but difficulty wouldn't match Answer's, although it's pretty close
Answer with his aerial tricks, but a bit offscreen at some points.
Supawit127 had a nice combo, but I expected a little more from him, his previous round videos were better.
Eriror had that awesome 2p2h in the beginning, it's incredible how he makes everything look so easy... I think he'll win this match.
Taeryong's combo was longer this time but too repetitive... I would rather he have a short combo over a long combo with a lot of repetitions.
Spinnerpeem's combo was insane, the spreads and aerial tricks were out of this world... I'm pretty sure he'll win this one. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 16:29:17
Eric said it all
But a bit note about Supawit vs Eriror IMO ...
Eriror combo overall was ok, the 2p2h was great and very smooth and 2ph2 IPBA rev 2.0 was really nice but after that its gone wrong .. (well .. a bit) for the 1p1h spinning, the trick list was a bit disappointed and the stuck on 0:20 fucked up his combo in overall a lot, if Eriror has recorded his combo before he got sick, the combo might be better =/
I was expected more from Supawit too actually , he did nice combo as usual but still no new stuffs in his combo, talking about the hard tricks he did, they were really nice .. and not sure if Eriror's 2p2h IPBA rev 2.0 can handle that at all o_o
I still prefer Eriror though =/
EDIT : fix the grammar, I think I need to get some sleep now = = -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 16:38:04
updated archive
http://upsb.info/WT09/R4/ -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 16:57:35
lol Eriror. 2p2h amazing shit.
I think Eriror's combo is extremely difficult even if it was all 1 hand. but since he's so good, he makes it look easy. maybe part of the reason why it doesn't look TOO impressive, even though it is -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 17:09:11
I loved the fact that it was mirrored 2p2h....that's just...woah. Supawit's combo is good as well...it'll be a close call.
Frat vs Minwoo, I can't begin to compare. Honestly I'm not sure how the judges rate Fingercross...
Answer vs Dongza...Dongza's combo was boring imo.
Peem vs Taeryong...lol...no competition there at all. Peem blew him away completely.... -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 17:18:43
Minwoo vs Frat
Dongza vs Answer(expected more from the both though)
Supawit vs Eriror- cant decide
Taeryong vs Spinnerpeem -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 17:40:17
Taeryong and Dongza were disappointing. Taeryong was just spammed his way to a longer combo and Dongza didnt supply anything new. His combos seem very alike.
I hope Eri wins, but that screw up in the middle was rather annoying and Supawit's combo was as flashy as usual with all those nice aerials. Not sure how this'll turn out.
Go peem and minwoo! I hope to see those monsters battle it out in the end. And hopefully minwoo wins. IMO, he just seems a better candidate for world champion. His style may not seem that great, but it's a rather nice style. And he has difficulty and creativity, while peem just has that insane difficulty. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 17:49:23QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 6 2009, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Taeryong and Dongza were disappointing. Taeryong was just spammed his way to a longer combo and Dongza didnt supply anything new. His combos seem very alike.
I hope Eri wins, but that screw up in the middle was rather annoying and Supawit's combo was as flashy as usual with all those nice aerials. Not sure how this'll turn out.
Go peem and minwoo! I hope to see those monsters battle it out in the end. And hopefully minwoo wins. IMO, he just seems a better candidate for world champion. His style may not seem that great, but it's a rather nice style. And he has difficulty and creativity, while peem just has that insane difficulty.
Haha what are you talking about Minwoo's style is great xD j/k, I know what you mean.
Peem's combo was really insane, I've never seen so many spreads in one combo, lol. I think this one is his best WT combo so far, it has a better structure and more difficulty compared to his R2 and R3. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 17:54:06QUOTE (Eric @ Apr 6 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Haha what are you talking about Minwoo's style is great xD j/k, I know what you mean.
Peem's combo was really insane, I've never seen so many spreads in one combo, lol. I think this one is his best WT combo so far, it has a better structure and more difficulty compared to his R2 and R3.
Yeah, his combos great. Inspires me to work on my spreads too. I really don't think he needed to pull out something like that to take out Taeryong though. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 17:55:28
Minwoo vs Fratleym:
Both combos are really good. Minwoos combo has some amazing tricks (switch spins/hai tua), a nice structure and little things I liked as well (the counter, beginning). Fratelyms combo has only one thing I really liked (@17sec). That fingercross stuff is just WOW. Both have got some little mistakes. But because the rest of Fratelyms combo is less difficult .. -> Minwoo
Dongza vs Answer:
Answer was disappointing imo. Dongza was good as always. Nothing more to say here. -> Dongza
Supawit127 vs Eriror:
Not their best combos. Both combos have difficult tricks, which are really nice. Eriror - the 2p2h stuff / Supawit - the spins and ending. But I guess Erirors 2 mistakes are the reasons he will loose this. Sorry. It is a close decision. -> Supawit
Taeryong vs Spinnerpeem:
If Taeryongs combos over 20sec do all look like this, I guess he did well with ~12sec combos. Just easy stuff, but very smooth. Nice style. But Spinnerpeem is definitely better. Not better than round 3, but good enough for round 4. -> Spinnerpeem -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 18:02:24QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 6 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yeah, his combos great. Inspires me to work on my spreads too. I really don't think he needed to pull out something like that to take out Taeryong though.
haha, yeah, overkill much? XDQUOTE (Gorgos @ Apr 6 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Minwoo vs Fratleym:
Both combos are really good. Minwoos combo has some amazing tricks (switch spins/hai tua), a nice structure and little things I liked as well (the counter, beginning). Fratelyms combo has only one thing I really liked (@17sec). That fingercross stuff is just WOW. Both have got some little mistakes. But because the rest of Fratelyms combo is less difficult .. -> Minwoo
Dongza vs Answer:
Answer was disappointing imo. Dongza was good as always. Nothing more to say here. -> Dongza
Supawit127 vs Eriror:
Not their best combos. Both combos have difficult tricks, which are really nice. Eriror - the 2p2h stuff / Supawit - the spins and ending. But I guess Erirors 2 mistakes are the reasons he will loose
this. Sorry. It is a close decision. -> Supawit
Taeryong vs Spinnerpeem:
If Taeryongs combos over 20sec do all look like this, I guess he did well with ~12sec combos. Just easy stuff, but very smooth. Nice style. But Spinnerpeem is definetely better. Not better than round 3, but good enough for round 4. -> Spinnerpeem
Hmm... I agree with you on peem's and taeryong's & minwoo's and frat's, but IMO, like Charlie said, Dongza's combo's were kind of similar to his previous rounds combos. Answer's combo was harder, but Dongza's combo was faster and cleaner.
looking at Supawit127's combo closely, it was pretty hard (e.g. the aerials to fl spins), but yeah I agree with you, he could've shown us more stuff, maybe new stuff. Eriror's combo was smooth & fast on most parts, the mistake will cause him to lose points well only one of them is really noticeable.
-
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 19:38:06
Minwoo [GPC] vs. Fratleym [FPSB]
Dongza [THPSC] vs. Answer [PSH]
Supawit127 [THPSC] vs. Eriror [UPSB]
Taeryong [KPSA] vs. Spinnerpeem [THPSC]
Without a doubt. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 19:53:57
Minwoo vs Fratlyem: Minwoo....don't have any more comments, both showed fantastic combo, just prefer Minwoo more
Answer vs Dongza: Answer, confident. Dongza's combo is boring, didn't show anything new. The only thing he had over Answer was his speed, difficulty is wayyyyy off, too. So Answer for this one
Eriror vs Supawit127: Supawit127, even thou i expected more from him, but Eriror's combo was not as flashy or "wow"
spinnerpeem vs Taryong: spinnerpeem for sure.... -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 20:00:59
holy crap
That was SUCH a nice combo form eriror!
Loved it
Minwoo vs Fratlyem Sorry minwoo but I am a big fan of both
Answer vs Dongza Loving it.
Eriror vs. supawit Supawit has been my fave for a very long time but eriror was amazing @.@
Spinnerpeem nuff said -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 20:51:44
Website updated: http://www.alexsimpsononline.com/rounds.html
results due this sunday.
----------------------------------------
This has been a great round, and the decision will be difficult. I'm sure sure that for each battle, you can give arguments for and against each participant. Out of these arguments, some of them will be true and agreed upon by everybody, but how important it is is a difficult choice. How to value a combo's strong points and say if they balance out the bad points somehow depend on each viewer's value for these ideas.
Let's start with the easiest battle to judge IMO:
Spinnerpeem vs Taeryong:
To me, the biggest appeal of Taeryong is the fact that his spinning looks natural. By that I mean that when you look at his combo, you see tricks flowing one unto another very smoothly. In other words, his spinning is predictable, but in a "feel good" kind of way. Just like when listen to Mozart, it's easy to listen because Mozart plays the notes you want to hear, so to speak. Now I feel that his combo for this round is worse for the previous two. The main reason for this is that he makes combo drag too long. After 10 seconds or so, it's like he doesn't know what else to do, so he repeats the same sequences with only small variance. The biggest proof of this is the tipped sonic reverses reoccuring at an interval. Now I'm sure that did a longer combo because people criticized him for it, but this was obviously not the right solution to go about it.
Spinnerpeem's combo is very good, although I can't say that personally it made an impact on me. I see it as an evolution of everything he's done so far and pushing the difficulty enveloppe yet again. To win this battle, he has done more than enough, but I think he's missing something that needs to be addressed ASAP (starting from next round). Usually I tell people to build combos by constructing smaller mini-combos and finding interesting ways to link those mini-combos together. Spinnerpeem does a lot of them, you can deconstruct his combo pretty easily into those kind of chunks. The problem I think is that he is too near-sighted in the construction of those minicombos that he doesn't see the big picture. Yes, using mini-combos is a solid way of building a combo, but you also need to have a bigger picture. And then when you have all those mini-combos at your disposition, you need to think of your bigger idea and ask yourself if a particular mini-combo belongs or not, and where does it belong in the combo. For peem I don't really have that kind of feeling: I get more the feeling of someone trying to jam the most amount of insane tricks in 25 seconds. There's no real unification idea that strings all the sequences together. The other problem I see is that he relies too much on "preset" mini-combos; mini-combos that were programmed beforehand and that were designed to look good on its own. And then he just takes those presets and "copy-pastes" them together. I think you gotta be a bit smarter than that: you can use preset combos, but don't blindly put everything that was in that preset. Take the time to analyze each trick in that mini-combo and ask "do I really need to put that? is there a way to make it better?".
Winner: Spinnerpeem, easy.
Dongza vs Answer:
This is a battle where you can easily find arguments for one side or the other based on the criterias. But how you weight the arguments is a different thing. For this battle, you can see that Dongza has perfect smoothness, while Answer makes several mistakes (most noticeable at :10, :15). But not only that, but Answer chose to use a LOT of aerials in his combo. Everytime you catch an aerial, you lose flow whether you like it not. IMO Answer went a bit too overboard with the aerials, especially the ones at the end (the two at :20 were too much I think and they weren't so great to look at). One way to remedy this problem is to make interceptions (you don't catch the aerial, it goes straight in the next trick), but those are extremely difficult (reference: A13X in round 2). Answer does have a few of them though notably the finisher.
What Answer lacks in smoothness, he makes up in difficulty. Making a consistent combo with that many aerials is difficult, so it's quite a feat he managed to film this combo. Dongza's difficulty usually comes from his abnormal speed, but for this video he slowed down. There are still some difficult tricks especially the ones that go around the hand though. But I still think Answer has a more difficult combo. Creativity-wise, I don't think neither participants did particularly well, but Answer certainly did better in that regard.
Effectiveness-wise, I see Answer in front. The reason for that is that there are more highlights in Answer's combo than Dongza. Dongza's combo feels very flat to me; it's very busy, it moves a lot, but nothing stands out, and before you know it, it's over. Answer you can see a better structure which highlights some of the bigger aerial tricks, like the swivel one towards the end.
Answer's video is slightly off-camera, but I don't feel like it's a big concern, you can still see his combo very well.
So now that you have those arguments, it's up to you to value them. I personally feel that the difficulty of Answer will overcome its mistakes, so I'm giving this one to Answer.
Winner: Answer.
Eriror vs Supawit127:
The first thing that has to said is the remarkable perseverance and determination that Eriror has shown to be able to produce such a high quality video while being very sick. Sure it feels a bit rough, but there are some great things in that video. It takes more than talent, it takes a strong will to be able to film this under such conditions. That being said, the external factors have no bearing whatsoever on the results: all that matters are the videos, so let's get to that.
Eriror's video is smooth in general, except that dreaded :19. Let's face it, it's a terrible mistake, a mistake that will require significant advantage to offset. Fortunately, I believe that 2p2h is that advantage. The whole sequence is just so well executed and the mirror effect is well done. Although you have to had a con on top of that too, and that's the camera screen.
As for Supawit127, I personally like his spinning better than the other thais. I feel like he's trying a lot more than the others to really think about the overall structure of the combo and how to put some life in his combo. Now for this combo in particular, I think it's well done but I can' say much more than that. I loved the intro and the finish, but everything in between was pretty much average (although well executed). I think it's ok but it leaves a lot of opportunity for Eriror to win.
Now for Eriror, apart from the 2p2h, I feel the rest of the combo is great too. I can see how each trick was put into place and how it contributes to the overall effect. The finisher was strong highlight for me, because the swivel seems to come from nowhere, so it's really the way it was executed that makes it look good.
IMO this battle boils down to how good do you value Eriror's 2P2H and his mistake. IMO it erases it completely and allows Eriror to win.
Winner: Eriror.
Minwoo vs Fratleym:
Ok first of all I have to say that Minwoo's combo is my favourite for this round. This is because personally I love spin transfers. It is a concept I have worked on for many years and I'm happy to see someone who execute it so well. That aside, I am also frustrated at this combo, because of the inacceptable error of leaving that last palmspin in. That palmspin, not only it is not executed well, has no business in this combo at all. The combo already ended on a sweet off-hand trick, there was no need to pursue it further, not to mention it created a huge stop. What makes this error particularly frustrating is that the palmspin could easily have been cut off from the video, it's not even a mistake you have to refilm for. I fail to see any value this palmspin brings to this combo, it has none. To me it has the same effect as someone doing finger gestures to signal success at the end of their fingers; totally irrelevant to the combo. I did consider the idea of a "fake ending" here, but it doesn't feel like Minwoo had such an intention and it certainly didn't have that kind of impact. Unfortunately, palmspin, unlike finger gestures, is still pen spinning so it must be considered as part of the combo, and it will have negative impact on the results. In fact, it could possibly cost Minwoo the match, because this battle is very very tight.
The only other really noticeable error is Fratleym at the end of the fingercross sequence. However, I'm willing to believe that his overall smoothness offset this error because of the difficulty of making his linkage smooth. The entry into the fingercross is spectacularly smooth and harder to get smooth than anything Minwoo has done IMO, and so it compensates for this error.
Now to me, because of the unbelievable high quality of both combos, the winner will be determined by whatever edge it has over his opponent. And this edge I believe is the special feature of each combo and how they fare against each other. Namely, Fratleym's fingercross vs Minwoo's spin transfers. Now when I look at the highlight of each combo, I believe that Minwoo has the slight edge. Let me explain.
Fratleym's fingercross sequence is amazing but I think that if you really think hard about it, the most amazing things about it is its entry and its exit. By entry I mean the great T4 half-tap entry into fingercrossed position and by exit I mean everything following the mistake into the finisher. But the actual fingercross sequence itself, the middle, I didn't find so great. I find that the biggest potential of fingercross is the idea that you're now spinning with a hand with different fingers position and be able to exploit that either by pushing the pen or affecting its trajectory (using the crossed finger and the "loop" created by bending that finger). Just spinning with a finger crossed is good, but what makes fingercrossing great is when you start making tricks that are otherwise impossible because you have this finger sticking out on top of the thumb. This is what pushes fingercrossing to a higher level. And in this combo, the only use I've seen of the crossed finger as an immediate factor in the spin was when it was used to push to the pen back in normal rotation (:17). But to me, that's not enough I think, because its impact is too similar to just making a counter TA reverse. I would have loved to see either more interaction with the crossed finger or more difficult uses. I know there are, because Fratleym has shown some of them in some of his fingercross example videos. So to me, I don't feel like the fingercross idea was used at a high level in the combo. It did add difficulty to make the combo smooth, but not as much impact or appeal.
Now for Minwoo's spin transfers, I really feel this level of excellence. The ending is absolutely unbelievable, I just love the way the pen perfectly spins and "falls off" the base of the thumb into the left hand at :15 and the return spin back is just amazing (although could have been done a touch better). Minwoo really shows us the versatility of spin transfers (does it either back of hand and palm up, shows that he carefully planned the transfers). This is an amazing display of skill and I can't get enough of watching this combo.
Winner: Minwoo. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 20:57:53
Minwoo vs Fratleym: Very interesting match. Both showed creative stuff and met my expectations. It's hard to decide but i believe minwoo's difficulty is a little bit higher.
Answer vs Dongza: Not dongza's best (very standard combo), but answers combo, although interesting, contained too many aerials and ended up losing it's smoothness.
Spinnerpeem vs Taeryong: Spinnerpeem won this one. But i have to point that the judges seem to be partial with taeryong (he shouldn't have won the last round) so we might have a surprise.
Eriror vs Supawit127: Wow, that was an epic match. Eriror did the best combo i've ever seem and supawit kept his amazing style. If we could forget eriror's mistakes i think he would win easily but since it didn't happen it depends on how tolerant the judges will be. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 21:40:52
im going to watch minwoo spinnerpeem and erirors videos again and again. they are soo good. keep up with the great vids guys.
-
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 22:37:52
YAY ERIROR! Thanks for not dissapointing.
Taeryong vs. Spinnerpeem
As much as I hate to say this, Spinnerpeem bagged this battle. Taeryong absolutely spammed his combo just to fluff it up and kill time. Spinnerpeem however, was the other rather dissapointing one. He's not trying anything new, not taking any risks. All I see is busts, a mini-combo spammed filler, and a shitload of spreads. I don't blame this, he probably knew Taeryong wouldn't have anything else to show and took this round easy.
Dongza vs. Answer
Closest one so far, IMO. Dongza, again, had the same problem as peem. He did lots of baks, midbaks, nothing new or orginal. Answer on the other hand, started stepping it up. His difficulty increased, but the smoothness was bleh.
Supawitguy vs. Eriror
I can't remember what Supawitguy's real username is. Anyways, Eriror: 0:19 was a shame. Otherwise, the 2p2h was the bomb. I really don't want to vote against Supawitguy, because he probably came up with the best combo of all the Thaispinners in this competition.
Fratelym vs. Minwoo
Totally agreed with Zombo. Use fingercrossing to explore areas that aren't accessible by non crossing. And Minwoo, what is with the last palmspin?
Edit: Don't mind my spinnerpeem analysis, I was watching the wrong video. -
Date: Mon, Apr 6 2009 23:07:12
Whoa, Zombo... O__O No one could've explained it better the way you did.
The only part that confuses me is...QUOTEThe other problem I see is that he relies too much on "preset" mini-combos; mini-combos that were programmed beforehand and that were designed to look good on its own. And then he just takes those presets and "copy-pastes" them together. I think you gotta be a bit smarter than that: you can use preset combos, but don't blindly put everything that was in that preset. Take the time to analyze each trick in that mini-combo and ask "do I really need to put that? is there a way to make it better?". -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 01:15:25QUOTE (Eric @ Apr 6 2009, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Whoa, Zombo... O__O No one could've explained it better the way you did.
The only part that confuses me is...
some ppl don't like spinnerpeem's style because they say he is too robotic.
the reason he is too robotic is because he's thinking too sequentially.
his combos have very little integration of all the parts, it's mostly going from one technique to another technique. it's more of a showcase of skill than a real combo.
what he needs to do is to think less in "phases" and more in trick-by-trick basis.
instead of thinking "im going to do as many busts as I can, then as many spreads as I can, then as many hai tuas as I can" he should think "my strongest techniques are spreads, busts, hai tuas. How can I form minicombos around them and then link those minicombos together?"
he should make his combos more seamless, less divisible. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 01:27:06QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 5 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Style is subjective.
Oh, and I guess I forgot to mention minwoo's mistakes, but I'm sort of used to them now.
LOL
well that's my anti minwoo point summed up right there
this is one of the better combos i've seen from him though, he didn't get sloppy until :18
anyways, im with frat, he amazed me completely, but im pretty sure minwoo will win anyways -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 01:47:05
Taeryong vs Spinnerpeem
Seriously, I dont know how Taeryong got this far with simple, short (yet very smooth) combos. But Spinnerpeem tears him apart... easily. Nice job to taeryong though... he managed to make Top 8.
Dongza vs. Answer
I have to go with dongza. Answers combo seemed choppy. Dongza's is smooth and fast and even throws some nice tricks in. I like the tricks that Answer uses, but it's execution could be better.
Eriror vs. Supawit127
Nothing special from Supawit. Very nice spinning but nothing too exciting. Erirors combo is great especially with the 2p2h start. But that stall hurts it but not enough to lose. So I choose Eriror.
Minwoo vs Fratleym
This is a huge one (obviously). Minwoos combo is great (as always). I dont know what to say about it. It's awesome and doesnt have the best ending. Fratleym's on the otherhand, is very impressive. This is the best combo Ive seen from him in a long time. I was really impressed. I would've loved to see more of the Fingercross stuff though. He had time to throw a couple of fingercross stuff in, but I think he's trying to save it for later rounds. He shouldve used more since he's going against one of the best in the tournament. Honestly, I cant decide who's gonna win... but Im really hoping for Fratleym because I really love his spinning and his style and I would really love to see more from him. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 02:26:34
3 questionable matches and spinnerpeem who crushed taeryong(I was really hoping he would pull some stuff out of his pants) this round.. xD
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 03:17:39QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Apr 6 2009, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>LOL
well that's my anti minwoo point summed up right there
this is one of the better combos i've seen from him though, he didn't get sloppy until :18
anyways, im with frat, he amazing me completely, but im pretty sure minwoo will win anyways
Well, see, here's the thing. Many spinners focus on a very small array of tricks. Peem with his busts, haituas, and spreads. Taeryong focuses on small tw sonic/around mini-combos and such. And you, shadow, focus on tw sonics. I can go on for a while but I'll stop there. Now, Minwoo, on the other hand, is always exploring new possiblities with pen spinning. These so called hard tricks seem hard mainly because no one's done it before. That's what I like about Minwoo. His creativity. But because he's always doing new things, and doesn't focus on a small array of tricks, his smoothness and consistency isn't perfect. It's a sacrifice that I'm actually glad Minwoo makes.
When you take a step forward to try new things, you're obviously going to make mistakes. That's how it works with life and that's how it works with pen spinning. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 03:32:57
didnt like any of the vids much this round... w/e
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 05:10:22QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 6 2009, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>some ppl don't like spinnerpeem's style because they say he is too robotic.
the reason he is too robotic is because he's thinking too sequentially.
his combos have very little integration of all the parts, it's mostly going from one technique to another technique. it's more of a showcase of skill than a real combo.
what he needs to do is to think less in "phases" and more in trick-by-trick basis.
instead of thinking "im going to do as many busts as I can, then as many spreads as I can, then as many hai tuas as I can" he should think "my strongest techniques are spreads, busts, hai tuas. How can I form minicombos around them and then link those minicombos together?"
he should make his combos more seamless, less divisible.
Wow!
You just had the perfect wording for that O.O -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 05:23:38QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 6 2009, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Now, Minwoo, on the other hand, is always exploring new possiblities with pen spinning. These so called hard tricks seem hard mainly because no one's done it before. That's what I like about Minwoo. His creativity. But because he's always doing new things, and doesn't focus on a small array of tricks, his smoothness and consistency isn't perfect. It's a sacrifice that I'm actually glad Minwoo makes.
When you take a step forward to try new things, you're obviously going to make mistakes. That's how it works with life and that's how it works with pen spinning.
ya i agree
i like how minwoo is always trying something new
and this round is the epitome of that IMO -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 06:15:13QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 6 2009, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well, see, here's the thing. Many spinners focus on a very small array of tricks. Peem with his busts, haituas, and spreads. Taeryong focuses on small tw sonic/around mini-combos and such. And you, shadow, focus on tw sonics. I can go on for a while but I'll stop there. Now, Minwoo, on the other hand, is always exploring new possiblities with pen spinning. These so called hard tricks seem hard mainly because no one's done it before. That's what I like about Minwoo. His creativity. But because he's always doing new things, and doesn't focus on a small array of tricks, his smoothness and consistency isn't perfect. It's a sacrifice that I'm actually glad Minwoo makes.
When you take a step forward to try new things, you're obviously going to make mistakes. That's how it works with life and that's how it works with pen spinning.
but i feel that it's a simple matter of mastering the new concepts before putting them into use, that's what i would like from minwoo
he keeps doing new things and moving on from the old ones, i guess i just cant stand the loss of smoothness, whereas some people can -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 06:45:42QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Apr 6 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but i feel that it's a simple matter of mastering the new concepts before putting them into use, that's what i would like from minwoo
he keeps doing new things and moving on from the old ones, i guess i just cant stand the loss of smoothness, whereas some people can
Well, as spinners, we focus on different things. You focus on smoothness. Minwoo focuses on trying new things. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 08:36:00
hm
wel, i think you should do the tricks you are able to do smooth. that's the most important point (for me)
i also try to do as many "new" tricks as possible. but i just do these, which i can do smooth. the others have to wait some time
but i think min really improoved this time. his combo is much more creative than the others in this WT AND nearly in every part smooth.
i also have the feeling, that he got slower! his spinning seems to get another style oO
duno who wins, really like frats combo! -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 09:55:23
hell, answer's gotta take this man!
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 10:10:25
Those guys are just as awesome as ever!
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 13:01:32QUOTEMinwoo vs Fratleym:
Ok first of all I have to say that Minwoo's combo is my favourite for this round. This is because personally I love spin transfers. It is a concept I have worked on for many years and I'm happy to see someone who execute it so well. That aside, I am also frustrated at this combo, because of the inacceptable error of leaving that last palmspin in. That palmspin, not only it is not executed well, has no business in this combo at all. The combo already ended on a sweet off-hand trick, there was no need to pursue it further, not to mention it created a huge stop. What makes this error particularly frustrating is that the palmspin could easily have been cut off from the video, it's not even a mistake you have to refilm for. I fail to see any value this palmspin brings to this combo, it has none. To me it has the same effect as someone doing finger gestures to signal success at the end of their fingers; totally irrelevant to the combo. I did consider the idea of a "fake ending" here, but it doesn't feel like Minwoo had such an intention and it certainly didn't have that kind of impact. Unfortunately, palmspin, unlike finger gestures, is still pen spinning so it must be considered as part of the combo, and it will have negative impact on the results. In fact, it could possibly cost Minwoo the match, because this battle is very very tight.
OK I think we both already talk about this palmspin, how it can be interpreted, I think we do have the same point of viewQUOTEThe only other really noticeable error is Fratleym at the end of the fingercross sequence. However, I'm willing to believe that his overall smoothness offset this error because of the difficulty of making his linkage smooth. The entry into the fingercross is spectacularly smooth and harder to get smooth than anything Minwoo has done IMO, and so it compensates for this error.
still thanks, I think you analyze enough to see this difficulty, I will talk about it laterQUOTENow to me, because of the unbelievable high quality of both combos, the winner will be determined by whatever edge it has over his opponent. And this edge I believe is the special feature of each combo and how they fare against each other. Namely, Fratleym's fingercross vs Minwoo's spin transfers. Now when I look at the highlight of each combo, I believe that Minwoo has the slight edge. Let me explain.
Fratleym's fingercross sequence is amazing but I think that if you really think hard about it, the most amazing things about it is its entry and its exit. By entry I mean the great T4 half-tap entry into fingercrossed position and by exit I mean everything following the mistake into the finisher. But the actual fingercross sequence itself, the middle, I didn't find so great. I find that the biggest potential of fingercross is the idea that you're now spinning with a hand with different fingers position and be able to exploit that either by pushing the pen or affecting its trajectory (using the crossed finger and the "loop" created by bending that finger). Just spinning with a finger crossed is good, but what makes fingercrossing great is when you start making tricks that are otherwise impossible because you have this finger sticking out on top of the thumb. This is what pushes fingercrossing to a higher level. And in this combo, the only use I've seen of the crossed finger as an immediate factor in the spin was when it was used to push to the pen back in normal rotation (:17). But to me, that's not enough I think, because its impact is too similar to just making a counter TA reverse. I would have loved to see either more interaction with the crossed finger or more difficult uses. I know there are, because Fratleym has shown some of them in some of his fingercross example videos. So to me, I don't feel like the fingercross idea was used at a high level in the combo. It did add difficulty to make the combo smooth, but not as much impact or appeal.
I think you estimate the potential of the concept as well as me but you overestimate me doing things that easily.
As I've already said, the fingercross in the middle was a nightmare for me. I do think I'm good for fingercross but getting it smooth in the middle of a combo for a wt is not hard, it's apocalyptic. Sorry to say that but for once, I can say that I'm really proud of this sequence even if there's the mistake after. Going in the fingercross position is not that hard, it's not a tap, it's a twisted sonic 34-23 that I work a bit to make the fingercross in the middle of the trick (concept?), the ending was awful I really accept my error but the TA rev going to the bend 3 in the middle of the fingercross, that was really hard to get smooth. As I've already said I manage to do it only one time, I was lucky I made the combo til the end.QUOTENow for Minwoo's spin transfers, I really feel this level of excellence. The ending is absolutely unbelievable, I just love the way the pen perfectly spins and "falls off" the base of the thumb into the left hand at :15 and the return spin back is just amazing (although could have been done a touch better). Minwoo really shows us the versatility of spin transfers (does it either back of hand and palm up, shows that he carefully planned the transfers). This is an amazing display of skill and I can't get enough of watching this combo.
Winner: Minwoo.
I do have a fucking respect for minwoo I admire his skills really much but I don't understand people saying "he's so creative", "his spinning is only creativity"
When I read that, I was like "huh?" in the stomach
I'm sorry but regarding the whole competition, Minwoo has not managed to surprise me. It's a bit like spinnerpeem, they're master in their style but nothing is really new.
Round after round I still admire minwoo's skills but I see every round like the others (sorry man, it's really just my opinion)
I think I was just hoping other things from him.
Maybe wipers or swivel, I think he's limiting himself and it's weird that you, zombo you can't see it because you're so fond of spin transfer.
There's so much other things in penspinning that minwoo can master.
You can take Eriror, people like or don't like. But this time he made a swivel he tries other things. he mastered everything, to me he just deserved more to be champion. But it's my definition, always surprise.
I don't know if I manage to surprise people but I made this wiper combo and this fingercross to make people say "wah never seen that"
But well, I just think 1p2h is more awkward for people than a poor fingercross that contains nothing exciting... -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 13:21:01
Well in my analysis I never talk about creativity, I talk about skill
Minwoo used spin transfers in earlier videos, but the spin transfers used here still feel very fresh to me this round. The spin transfers used in this combo feel different from what is used in previous round, especially the one at the end because there is also a concept of space used in it. (the pen goes from back to front, then front to back).
Spin transfers itself is a very broad domain, so you can't really say all spin transfers are the same. It's not fair to compare with peem because the way he uses busts, etc. is always the same, Minwoo will explore the spin transfers and 1p2h more in depth. I think that Minwoo found a "gold mine" in spin transfers that keep giving him new interesting variations, I don't get the feeling he is sitting on one particular trick at all. I think that the day Minwoo runs out of relevant ideas in spin transfers, he will certainly go another direction, I don't get the feeling he will stall.
It feels similar to David Weis' contribution: the man has never been great at anything other than backarounds, but he developped that family of tricks so extensively that's why we recognize his creativity. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 13:49:36QUOTESpin transfers itself is a very broad domain, so you can't really say all spin transfers are the same. It's not fair to compare with peem because the way he uses busts, etc. is always the same, Minwoo will explore the spin transfers and 1p2h more in depth. I think that Minwoo found a "gold mine" in spin transfers that keep giving him new interesting variations, I don't get the feeling he is sitting on one particular trick at all. I think that the day Minwoo runs out of relevant ideas in spin transfers, he will certainly go another direction, I don't get the feeling he will stall.
Ok and I even largely accept the parallel with David Weis.
But there's oen thing that I'm not sharing with you, it's definitely your love for spin transfer.
I do hate 2p2h but even if Minwoo is a master in spin transfer, I can't get it.
You did bring a lot in spin transfer as well. to me you're the master and the genius because you invented it.
sorry but Minwoo has not created anything here, he's just doing tricks which make the pen spin and he switch hand.
it's really difficult and so and so but well, to me, there's nothing new since your own contribution zombo
(ok for the space concept though)
My combo is surely at a less level, but I can say that I invented fingercross, here is the creativity. I don't have created the wiper hybrids, angmaramyon made that and I will not take a big credit for that.
Spin transfers are cool but tiring at the end. Sorry to seem to be a bit "french" hihi, but to me, the concept of fingercross, although it's still underused by me, opens a lot more doors than spin transfers.
It's just that nobody apart from me want to launch himself into it.
Anyway I don't want to fight for that, but for creativity, I think this is unfair. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 13:57:32
Fratleym, you were always the best when it came to creativity. I love the fingercross idea and started practicing it. Spin transfers are okay, but they are only spins... which minwoo has mastered (i still highly respect minwoo though).
I really hope you win, Frat. Youre the best. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 14:29:18
well we're here to evaluate videos so I'm not sure if you want to discuss how about it from contribution standpoint or just who made the better video.
When you judge some videos, if the difference in quality is big, then you don't look at details and using criterias is enough to differentiate the two combos. So for example, even though Spinnerpeem has horrible combo structure, the quality of his combo is too high compared to Taeryong, so you don't look at such details.
When a battle is very tight, I feel like the winner is decided by arguments that are not easily quantified. You have to look more in details in the combos and look at a higher level.
So for example in this battle, to me it's a very difficult battle so I have to find pros and cons of each combo to look at how the winner can be decided. Details that in a regular battle don't mean so much, but because the battle is very tight, even small things can make a difference.
So to me there are 2 arguments that can make the difference in this battle:
1- Palmspin mistake by Minwoo
2- Minwoo applied the concept of spin transfers in a more meaningful, interesting, impacting way than Fratleym who applied the concept of fingercross is a simpler, less impact way.
And I see 2 as being the gamebreaker here. It's not much but I think that's how you have to look at this battle, it's a logical way to judge.
-----------
Now if you want to talk on a research standpoint, then it's completely different.
You invented fingercross and if you can master it to its potential then of course your contribution is stronger than Minwoo.
However I will say that the spin transfers that I used were more on a finger-level and on one hand only, while Minwoo works on spin transfers which involves larger parts like palm and back of hand. In my opinion there is still a lot that can be done with transfer spins, you can also add body parts and I think finger-level spin transfer has not been used to its potential yet. In fact, we can probably check out the art of static juggling and see how we can apply here, because I think spin transfers is very close to that. (Sorry I forgot the word for static juggling, it's when you have a dude manipulating a ball and rolling it on its arms)
I also think that developping a concept is almost as important as creating it, because it shows how useful it can be. We can say that someone like me is an inventor, while someone like Minwoo is an engineer. To me just ideas are not enough you need to show how to apply them well also. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 14:56:22QUOTE1- Palmspin mistake by Minwoo
2- Minwoo applied the concept of spin transfers in a more meaningful, interesting, impacting way than Fratleym who applied the concept of fingercross is a simpler, less impact way.
And I see 2 as being the gamebreaker here. It's not much but I think that's how you have to look at this battle, it's a logical way to judge.
I don't really understand your way of judging so because mathematically talking :
1) -1 minwoo
2) +1 minwoo
So if i transltae you well
you give
1)-1 miwoo
2)+1.5 minwoo because this is more important to you
but when you judge like this you only judge absolutely not relatively even with your importance criteria, it would be :
1)-1 minwoo nothing for me because I'm independant of his trick misinterpretation
2)+1.5 minwoo +1 fratleym because he was stronger than me according to you
let's count
minwoo 0.5
fratleym 1
Ok I've made my mistake after the fingercross i give a -0.5 to me
minwoo 0.5 fratleym 0.5
battle is tight^^ -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 15:25:05
Hmm,
Fratleym - for me its right now like you gave me slap in my face.
"He is NOT creative" ...
seriourly that hurts ... after reading that - I wonder myself what I fucking do every Day sitting in front of my Pen and try to do what NO ONE does ever before. Isnt that creative? Show me someone who made a Palmspin Transfer - show me someone who made a Spin Over Palmpin - show me FRAT!!! What is for you creativity? Inventing sth. totally new and not explore?
So I invented Thumbcharge Release and fucking explore it - so still I am not creative for you? You uses Fingercross before - and now this round you explored "what you invented" before.
Seriously thats it. I gonna invent T4 Cross and then I am creative .... jeezus ...
(I am definitly NOT saying that, cause I want to win or sth. - its just that fact - that what you said fucking hurts ... its like what i did for 1 Year - what I worked for - didnt seems to you A BIT - A BIT creative ... srew that!) -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 15:56:14QUOTE (Minwoo @ Apr 7 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hmm,
Fratleym - for me its right now like you gave me slap in my face.
"He is NOT creative" ...
seriourly that hurts ... after reading that - I wonder myself what I fucking do every Day sitting in front of my Pen and try to do what NO ONE does ever before. Isnt that creative? Show me someone who made a Palmspin Transfer - show me someone who made a Spin Over Palmpin - show me FRAT!!! What is for you creativity? Inventing sth. totally new and not explore?
So I invented Thumbcharge Release and fucking explore it - so still I am not creative for you? You uses Fingercross before - and now this round you explored "what you invented" before.
Seriously thats it. I gonna invent T4 Cross and then I am creative .... jeezus ...
(I am definitly NOT saying that, cause I want to win or sth. - its just that fact - that what you said fucking hurts ... its like what i did for 1 Year - what I worked for - didnt seems to you A BIT - A BIT creative ... srew that!)
i think he meant individual combos, perhaps in the world tournament? maybe he just saw some repetition of what you were doing in each combo... but don't take it like that man. you're probably one of the most creative spinners i know
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 16:32:05QUOTEHmm,
Fratleym - for me its right now like you gave me slap in my face.
"He is NOT creative" ...
seriourly that hurts ... after reading that - I wonder myself what I fucking do every Day sitting in front of my Pen and try to do what NO ONE does ever before. Isnt that creative? Show me someone who made a Palmspin Transfer - show me someone who made a Spin Over Palmpin - show me FRAT!!! What is for you creativity? Inventing sth. totally new and not explore?
So I invented Thumbcharge Release and fucking explore it - so still I am not creative for you? You uses Fingercross before - and now this round you explored "what you invented" before.
Seriously thats it. I gonna invent T4 Cross and then I am creative .... jeezus ...
(I am definitly NOT saying that, cause I want to win or sth. - its just that fact - that what you said fucking hurts ... its like what i did for 1 Year - what I worked for - didnt seems to you A BIT - A BIT creative ... srew that!)
Hey sorry I don't mean to hurt you I haven't said what you quoted me for
I said : sorry but Minwoo has not created anything HERE
and before I said you had not surprise me throughout the competition
It means the 1st round you amazed me a lot but after that I have seen a lot of similar things
I don't neglect all the things you made out of this competition man
You said I hurted you, I'm really sorry for that .
You felt hurt because your creativity was neglected by me.
So now, be me, and read all the posts since the beginning of this topic.
Everybody is saying that you're creative everybody is saying that you're amazing, everybody is saying that your spin is only made of creativity...
And there's no fuckin words about me.
Everyone is just saying "he won"
lik they were analyzing your combo so much "wah cool transfer" and so
And my own creativity is just not as awkward as yours so all I deserve here is a piece of spit
So sorry to be the only one here who find that you were not so surprising this round, that's the way I feel
I feel the same for spinnerpeem, with different skills and different videos but the effect is the same.
You mastered those spin transfer at a rate that I will never reach, but you're not trying some other things ENOUGH for me. that's all
I 'm not saying that you're not creative at all, if you read some old posts on FPSB, I've even said, when I started the round 4 that you were last creative spinner remaining in the competition, so no, please don't feel like that because that's not the way I feel about you, true story.
During this competition I think, as zombo that you made spin transfer as nobody did before and you overmastered them.
I tihnk you have not read through the lines that I wrote, it was a critic against you because I think you're great and you deserve more than being "spin tranfer master". I mean you're really creative, I really admire that so IMO, I would like to see your creativity in other domain than only spin transfer. Don't you see it's just my own frustration about your skills?
Damn you're young in penspinning, you have your own way to build. I'm just saying that you could bring a lot more to penspinning. Maybe it's not what you want I don't know but I think you could really bring new concepts to penspinning and then master them.
Anyway, please don't feel hurt, it was not my aim, talk to you on msn if you'd rather like -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 17:17:26
You two are both very very wonderful spinners. I hate to have to see one of you lose... It will be very close, but its up to the judges. You two have made me think about penspinning in a way ive never thought of... Im an inexperienced spinner, so i cant really say who i think will win. I just have a preference. Good luck to both of you.
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 17:42:19
The reason most people prefer minwoo over you, Fratleym, is because fingercrossing just isn't as flashy/cool as Minwoo's 1p2h tricks. Fingercrossing is rather... boring. All you do is stick your ring finger into your thumbflap. It's a new concept, so you get points for that, but it's not nearly as "cool" as palmspin transfers and a left-handed handaround. Perhaps if you did something more with the fingercross as Zombo said that you can't normally do without fingercrossing. Plus, fingercrossing doesn't seem that difficult, just needs a bit of flexiblity to do. I tried doing it myself and I can, it just hurts my hands.
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 17:48:04QUOTE (Charlie @ Apr 7 2009, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The reason most people prefer minwoo over you, Fratleym, is because fingercrossing just isn't as flashy/cool as Minwoo's 1p2h tricks. Fingercrossing is rather... boring.
Hm... I don't agree.. I think Fingercrossing is just as spectacular, if not more, than those spin transfers.. but that's because I've researched some of them a couple of years ago already, and fingercrossing is something I love watching. It all boils down to opinion anyway.QUOTE ("Charlie")Plus, fingercrossing doesn't seem that difficult, just needs a bit of flexiblity to do. I tried doing it myself and I can, it just hurts my hands.
The same could be said about the spin transfers, though... But then again, I've researched them before.
Eventually, both combos are exceptionally well made, with both rather new ideas that each have their own group to which it attracts. Now we'll have to wait and see who goes on with the innovations. I'd love to see more. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 18:17:53QUOTE (Erirornal Kraione @ Apr 7 2009, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The same could be said about the spin transfers, though... But then again, I've researched them before.
Eventually, both combos are exceptionally well made, with both rather new ideas that each have their own group to which it attracts. Now we'll have to wait and see who goes on with the innovations. I'd love to see more.
yeah, spin transfers aren't that hard either. But like I said, they're much flashier/cooler. Minwoo's ending was pretty badass though. Aside from the palmspin. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 18:56:48
hmm well I already said that it is difficult to quantify the argument
why would Minwoo's mistake be -1 and the difference between his skill level in spin transfer compared to your fingercross skill level is 0.5?
these numbers are abstract to me.
I am not rating the concept of fingercross vs concept of spin transfers
I am only rating what I see in the video, the application of spin transfer vs application of fingercross.
and IMO, Minwoo has a better use of spin transfer than Fratleym has a use of fingercross, and to me that makes the difference between winning and losing. IMO the fingercross in the fratleym combo is shallow, it is not a deep use of the wonderful potential of fingercross.
The difference is very small and you can't really say this is a convincing argument to win, but it's the only thing I could find because the battle is too tight. Whatever the result will be, it will not a dominating result/
Also maybe Minwoo can do other things in his combos but I think it is a decision he has made to focus on spin transfers, because they do take a lot of time to demonstrate fully their potential. Maybe it is a disadvantage for him, but I think it was worthwhile to make that decision. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 19:11:50
Frat,
these people are not the judges, they do not decide who wins. You shouldn't feel insulted because people thought Minwoo's combo was more visually appealing. And the people who take the time to analyze combos DO comment one your skill, style, and tricks. I feel you are upset at the polls/posts here on the UPSB because you worked hard on your combo, and members here are not appreciating it. But you are pulling out the "ask for pity and degrade the opponent" card and I think you are better then that. -
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 19:36:17
Frat, if you win all you have to do is a fingercross spin transfer
-
Date: Tue, Apr 7 2009 19:51:42QUOTE (Jamie Enns @ Apr 7 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Frat,
these people are not the judges, they do not decide who wins. You shouldn't feel insulted because people thought Minwoo's combo was more visually appealing. And the people who take the time to analyze combos DO comment one your skill, style, and tricks. I feel you are upset at the polls/posts here on the UPSB because you worked hard on your combo, and members here are not appreciating it. But you are pulling out the "ask for pity and degrade the opponent" card and I think you are better then that.
Not exactly. I understand why frat is doing what hes doing. He is just trying to show everyone what they dont see. Everyone thinks minwoo should win because of flashy tricks. He believes that his combo is good because of creativity and difficulty. Fratleym did have ~4 seconds left to potentially do something else with the fingercross to mke his combo that much better, but right now its just wasted time he didnt use. Either way, both are respectable combos and itll be very tough for the judges, so dont be surprised by the result. Good luck to both of you. -
Date: Wed, Apr 8 2009 08:32:16
Let's be simple.
What's done is done. Good Luck for both. Now let's just enjoy and wait for results. -
Date: Sat, Apr 11 2009 11:01:36
i can't wait for the results tomorrow!
-
Date: Sat, Apr 11 2009 11:33:45QUOTE (PenMaster @ Apr 11 2009, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i can't wait for the results tomorrow!
I think it will be late again ._. -
Date: Sat, Apr 11 2009 11:54:46QUOTE (GSkyrunner @ Apr 11 2009, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think it will be late again ._.
+1
Lol
agree -
Date: Sat, Apr 11 2009 12:31:49
im sorry that im going to bring this up again but..
IF the tournament were not head to head matches, and instead the competitors were cut in half in each round, ie the upper/better people based on that rounds vids are kept.
then minwoo and frat would most likely still be in.
or with seeds. which i understand is being thought about currently. hurray. =)
with regards to the seed rankings/perhaps my ideas can help:
for the seeds to work, theyd have to be updated after each round. Therefore, if there would be a static number one seed, he/she would have to be consistently good.
there are several options to doing this.
A. seed points are given each round based in everyones combo. It is preferable/more accurate to give everyone ranking (which i know would be a hell hole)
B. alternatively, just the top 30% or 40% are given seed points. The best combo of that round gets the most seed poitns say 10, and the lowest gets say 1. This is just a mellowed down version of option A.
C. While it is very difficult to rank them to into seeds when they are so close in skill, i assume it would be a little easier to seperate them when they are not close. So lets say when we have 64 spinners, we split them not into 64 seeds but instead into 8 groups. The upper 8 will get the most (and an even amount) of seed points and the lower 8 the lowest.
=====
Question:
If spinner A > spinner B.
And Spinner B > spinner C.
is spinner A > spinner C?
bc thats well how the seeds logically work.
===========================
the seed ranking is then changed/ranked accordingly to whoever has the most seed points. ie in real time or dynamically changed after each round. so even if spinner A did awesome in round 1 or even the best in round 1, he/she cannot slack off in round 2 as it will affect their seed ranking. so hopefully, even though this takes a lot of work for the judges, and i mean a lot fo work. it will greatly level the fairness of the tournament. Perhaps even getting seperate judges for the head to head and the seed system.
=================== -
Date: Sat, Apr 11 2009 13:40:16
all the arguments were alrady stated
cutting in half is hard for judges who have to consider all videos at the same time
head to head matches are easier for the participants to focus on, because knowing your opponent is will affect your combo
head to head matches are much more dramatic and entertaining
we've already got some pretty good new system going in the RD, we'll see if we can use it in WT11.
and arguing that minwoo and fratleym would still be in is tough, we're already in the quaterfinals, there's not much left already. -
Date: Sun, Apr 12 2009 06:43:55QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 11 2009, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>all the arguments were alrady stated
cutting in half is hard for judges who have to consider all videos at the same time
head to head matches are easier for the participants to focus on, because knowing your opponent is will affect your combo
head to head matches are much more dramatic and entertaining
we've already got some pretty good new system going in the RD, we'll see if we can use it in WT11.
and arguing that minwoo and fratleym would still be in is tough, we're already in the quaterfinals, there's not much left already.
Yeah even if I'm losing I'm happy anyway.
Remember Bonkura, Cloud traveler and Taeryong losing pretty quickly in 2007 (Eriror you're the champion killer !!!)
-
Date: Sun, Apr 12 2009 09:42:46QUOTE (FratleymメFS @ Apr 12 2009, 02:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yeah even if I'm losing I'm happy anyway.
im actually for you in this match frat. your combo seems more profesional imo, and to me that is the factor that puts me on your side. i think its fine that you point out your strong points, seeing as you are the creator of that move and its difficult for judges to judge something that they dont understand 100%. but it doesnt help at all to start getting really angry about it. zombo has his opinion, and indeed min's was a bit more flashy (btw I <3 minwoo too!!!), but im sure the judges realize that its very tight and are trying the best they can.
i think you understood this already and youve already apologized too ^^. so anyways...
*places frat and min plush dolls' arms around each other.
there. -
Date: Sun, Apr 12 2009 11:18:57
I think that the main problem with the WT is that it's one and done..
Imo, at the very least from the Quarter finals stage, it should be best out of 3.
I know I know it's a lot of combos, takes a lot of ideas, makes each combo slightly less good etc.
But still I think it out weighs the fact that good spinners can lose to lesser spinners because they didn't plan as well, or were sick or just had slightly bad luck and their epic combo was slightly less epic then their competitor's, with no chance to make get it right.