UPSB v3

Advanced Tricks / How To Make A Good Combo And What Is A Good Combo

  1. mr phua sy
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 14:17:50

    How To Make A Good Combo And What Is A Good Combo

    Been researching for few weeks stilll i dunnot noe hw jus share ur opinions here

    ps:i am a noob here!

  2. cyshing
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 14:49:52

    You can't know How To Make A Good Combo And What Is A Good Combo by just doing research, i believe you have to keep spinning for a considerable time and watch quite a large amount of other people's spinning and combo videos to know How To Make A Good Combo And What Is A Good Combo.

    Since you said you have been researching for few weeks then i don't think i have any unique opinion here. (i'm no pro)

  3. mr phua sy
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 14:52:19

    QUOTE (cyshing @ Apr 13 2009, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    You can't know How To Make A Good Combo And What Is A Good Combo by just doing research, i believe you have to keep spinning for a considerable time and watch quite a large amount of other people's spinning and combo videos to know How To Make A Good Combo And What Is A Good Combo.

    Since you said you have been researching for few weeks then i think i don't think i have any unique opinion here. (i'm no pro)

    so what if i have been spinnning for a considerable time and haven seen anyone's good combo vid yet? does that means that i am not good at making combo?

  4. cyshing
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 14:59:59

    Can't say that you must be no good at making combo, but if you don't see a lot of people's combo, probably you can't make good combo. If you can, you have natural talent. =D

    Btw, how do you do research if you 'haven seen anyone's good combo vid yet'?

  5. mr phua sy
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 15:07:45

    QUOTE (cyshing @ Apr 13 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Can't say that you must be no good at making combo, but if you don't see a lot of people's combo, probably you can't make good combo. If you can, you have natural talent. =D

    Btw, how do you do research if you 'haven seen anyone's good combo vid yet'?

    Err I Said ''If''? laugh.gif dun be angry wif me

  6. cyshing
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 15:10:20

    Oh, i forgot the 'if' after i typed 1st paragraph. Don't worry, not angry at all. Just discussion.

  7. Metalm3
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 15:28:01

    Lol, there's a similar topic tongue.gif

    http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=17886

    EDIT: Wrong link tongue.gif this is the official one I suppose - http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showt...20&hl=combo

  8. Sian_ing
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 15:40:15

    QUOTE (Metalm3 @ Apr 13 2009, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Lol, there's a similar topic tongue.gif

    http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=17886

    EDIT: Wrong link tongue.gif this is the official one I suppose - http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showt...20&hl=combo

    go to breakdown request thread, take a few combos and modify them to your liking. then start making your own

  9. Awesome
    Date: Mon, Apr 13 2009 17:24:48

    Well there are a lot of elements to consider, but if you want to know look at the criteria for WT judging, or Zombo's system which should be in the wiki. Thats how good a combo is, is determined for competitive events, so that would be a good reference point.

    Good combos are smooth, so you have to make sure you don't have any weird pauses in your spinning (don't mess up, refilm if you do), and keep direction changes to a minimum; unless you spend time making direction changes look good, but that is advanced, so just avoid them for now. All the tricks have to flow one after another. This is probably the most important thing to make an esthetically pleasing combo. With out smoothness your combo will be ugly.

    Variety also plays a big role, make sure you use lots of different tricks or else it can be boring if you just do the same tricks over and over again.

    Difficulty is another factor, good combos have lots of hard to perform tricks in them, which take lots of practice, you should never sacrifice smoothness for difficulty however, if you have pauses during tricks, those tricks are no where near as appealing as they should be. Difficulty makes a combo interesting and generates a respect for your skill.

    Style is important, but this is up to the individual,for now avoid jerky hand movements, don't move fingers that have no part of a trick uncontrollably (this might take some practice for some tricks), just try and be in control of your entire hand and arm as well as the pen.Control is the biggest part here, after you have control is when you can start developing your own style. As you advance you can begin to develop an unique style, which can make your spinning more interesting and esthetically appealing.

    Creativity helps a combo but this can be hard to do constantly for every combo you make, also I don't think a good combo needs any creativity in it at all (could be disputed). If you don't have to other elements down it won't count for much anyway. Most combos made don't have creative elements in them, so don't worry if you aren't creative. If you want excellent combos then creativity is essential, it keeps the viewer captivated and lets you spin to your fullest potential, for me creativity is that edge that makes good combos into great combos.

    What makes a good combo good will vary from person to person, but this is what a good combo to me has if I try to break it down. Of course you can always make good combos with free styles if you have a wide enough arsenal of tricks, mini combos and linkages.

  10. mr phua sy
    Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 07:41:09

    QUOTE (Awesome @ Apr 14 2009, 01:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Well there are a lot of elements to consider, but if you want to know look at the criteria for WT judging, or Zombo's system which should be in the wiki. Thats how good a combo is, is determined for competitive events, so that would be a good reference point.

    Good combos are smooth, so you have to make sure you don't have any weird pauses in your spinning (don't mess up, refilm if you do), and keep direction changes to a minimum; unless you spend time making direction changes look good, but that is advanced, so just avoid them for now. All the tricks have to flow one after another. This is probably the most important thing to make an esthetically pleasing combo. With out smoothness your combo will be ugly.

    Variety also plays a big role, make sure you use lots of different tricks or else it can be boring if you just do the same tricks over and over again.

    Difficulty is another factor, good combos have lots of hard to perform tricks in them, which take lots of practice, you should never sacrifice smoothness for difficulty however, if you have pauses during tricks, those tricks are no where near as appealing as they should be. Difficulty makes a combo interesting and generates a respect for your skill.

    Style is important, but this is up to the individual,for now avoid jerky hand movements, don't move fingers that have no part of a trick uncontrollably (this might take some practice for some tricks), just try and be in control of your entire hand and arm as well as the pen.Control is the biggest part here, after you have control is when you can start developing your own style. As you advance you can begin to develop an unique style, which can make your spinning more interesting and esthetically appealing.

    Creativity helps a combo but this can be hard to do constantly for every combo you make, also I don't think a good combo needs any creativity in it at all (could be disputed). If you don't have to other elements down it won't count for much anyway. Most combos made don't have creative elements in them, so don't worry if you aren't creative. If you want excellent combos then creativity is essential, it keeps the viewer captivated and lets you spin to your fullest potential, for me creativity is that edge that makes good combos into great combos.

    What makes a good combo good will vary from person to person, but this is what a good combo to me has if I try to break it down. Of course you can always make good combos with free styles if you have a wide enough arsenal of tricks, mini combos and linkages.

    can u give me a good but simple combo?

  11. JC
    Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 07:55:41

    QUOTE (mr phua sy @ Apr 19 2009, 03:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    can u give me a good but simple combo?

    Two combos that only use the 4 fundamental tricks (and their reverses) are:
    Eriror's Fundamental combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyuaA-vCQW4
    Chautran's Fundamental combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJXRsi8JKPM...feature=related

    Although these are probably not even considered that great of a combo, but they're decent considering the low level of difficulty that they use--providing you with the simplicity that you requested for.

    They're both extremely smooth though, so if you want to make a good combo, start simple like in those videos, but keep it extremely smooth. Smoothness throughout a combo will be the first thing noticed by an audience in determining whether your combo is good or not. Then comes the other factors that awesome had mentioned such as difficulty, style, control, creativity, etc...

    You can worry about this later, but there are other factors that can make your combos look even better. This is called your presentation; this includes your video quality, lighting, camera angle, background, etc... Although if you do the same combo twice, once with good presentation and once with poor presentation, the combo is still equally good since it's the same combo, but it will give the illusionnn that it's a better combo than it actually is. At least I feel so

  12. Shrouded Figure
    Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 08:23:57

    How about speed changes, like slowing down a little bit in some parts of combos, are they still considered smooth???

  13. Awesome
    Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 09:25:14

    QUOTE (Shrouded Figure @ Apr 19 2009, 04:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    How about speed changes, like slowing down a little bit in some parts of combos, are they still considered smooth???

    If its a deliberate speed change clearly used for effect, then yes. Most of the time though it isn't and they become unsmooth because of that.

    QUOTE
    can u give me a good but simple combo?

    And for a combo, just do tricks one after another and look at what looks good and what doesn't, make the tricks flow, just read my post.

    Really there isn't much to making combos when you're starting out, you just have to experiment, if you follow the advice in my previous post you shouldn't go wrong.

  14. Shrouded Figure
    Date: Sun, Apr 19 2009 09:31:55

    QUOTE (Awesome @ Apr 19 2009, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    If its a deliberate speed change clearly used for effect, then yes. Most of the time though it isn't and they become unsmooth because of that.


    And for a combo, just do tricks one after another and look at what looks good and what doesn't, make the tricks flow, just read my post.

    Really there isn't much to making combos when you're starting out, you just have to experiment, if you follow the advice in my previous post you shouldn't go wrong.


    So... No jerky hand movements, right???

    And I saw korean guys doing a tipped charge slowly when they were spinning really fast before, deliberate, right???

    But is it appealing?

  15. Charlie
    Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 04:11:07

    QUOTE (Shrouded Figure @ Apr 19 2009, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So... No jerky hand movements, right???

    And I saw korean guys doing a tipped charge slowly when they were spinning really fast before, deliberate, right???

    But is it appealing?

    Do you think so?

  16. i.suk.at.everything
    Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 07:05:48

    @SF:

    it depends on where they are done in the combo, execution, and the rest of your style as well. e.g. wcy WT09 round 1, ayatori.

  17. Malch
    Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 16:11:23

    QUOTE (Awesome @ Apr 13 2009, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    don't move fingers that have no part of a trick uncontrollably (this might take some practice for some tricks)

    I actually think unnecessary finger movements are appealing more often than not. Bonkura and s777 both do this a lot, and it complements their styles wonderfully.

    I'd also like to say some stuff about making combos smooth:

    My experience is that you need to pay attention to the direction the pen is spinning, and the next trick should be more or less in the same direction. For example, after a (palm up) Sonic 23-12 (spinning clockwise for righties) it would generally look smoother to do a NeoSonic 12-TA than a TA because the Neosonic also spins clockwise.

    It is also very important to learn how to turn your hand while still conserving momentum and smoothness. A good example of this would be (palm up) Sonic 23-12 > (palm down) Inverse Sonic Rev 12-23. This principle of continuing in the same direction is very useful, but if you never change directions you are very limited as far as which tricks you can do, and as awesome said variety is also very important.

    So to change directions you can use a number of different methods. Some methods I use include:
    - Turning your hand while Fingerpassing so you can go from a palm up trick to a palm down one in a different direction (see Chautran's simple combo)
    - Abruptly changing direction as in TA Harmonic (also in Chau's combo)
    - gradually changing direction throughout a number of tricks—this one takes practice, one example I do is (palm up) Sonic 12-23 > (palm down) Inverse Twisted Sonic Rev > Pass Rev 23-T2 > TA

    I'd like to see some other direction changing ideas if you have some I didn't list there. ^^

  18. Winterlocke
    Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 20:57:14

    What i've done recently for combo-building is take a trick (in my case, inv sonic) then figure out all the cool things i can do into and out of inv sonic. it was pretty fun =D

    but i only ended up making minicombos.. but link up a few of those and you have a decent combo

  19. Awesome
    Date: Mon, Apr 20 2009 21:14:14

    QUOTE (Malch @ Apr 20 2009, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I actually think unnecessary finger movements are appealing more often than not. Bonkura and s777 both do this a lot, and it complements their styles wonderfully.


    I said uncontrollably, extra finger movement is great, and can be used for great aesthetic appeal, but to do that you need to be able to actually control which fingers you use. The actual use of using extra finger movement comes after you learn to avoid impulsive, uncontrollable movement. Unless of course you luck out and have attractive finger movement naturally, but his is pretty rare, because natural movements are usually jerky and lack smoothness.

    I agree with you, but when your starting out you need to be in control before you start adding in your own flare.

  20. FLASHzer007
    Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 00:38:11

    a good combo is a smooth, medium speed combination of tricks. I seem to make good combos by being bored, and doing random tricks.

  21. Malch
    Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 02:32:37

    QUOTE (Awesome @ Apr 20 2009, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I said uncontrollably, extra finger movement is great, and can be used for great aesthetic appeal, but to do that you need to be able to actually control which fingers you use. The actual use of using extra finger movement comes after you learn to avoid impulsive, uncontrollable movement. Unless of course you luck out and have attractive finger movement naturally, but his is pretty rare, because natural movements are usually jerky and lack smoothness.

    I agree with you, but when your starting out you need to be in control before you start adding in your own flare.

    An example of a finger movement that I do is when I do something like Warped Sonic 23-34 > Sonic 34-23 I curl my index finger up then extend it. At first the movement was jerky and sloppy but now I smoothed it out and I think it looks good. I never learned to do that mini combo without moving my index finger, so I don't think you have to be in complete control before you start to apply finger movement to your combos.

  22. mr phua sy
    Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 12:58:11

    QUOTE (Malch @ Apr 21 2009, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    An example of a finger movement that I do is when I do something like Warped Sonic 23-34 > Sonic 34-23 I curl my index finger up then extend it. At first the movement was jerky and sloppy but now I smoothed it out and I think it looks good. I never learned to do that mini combo without moving my index finger, so I don't think you have to be in complete control before you start to apply finger movement to your combos.

    what is the difference between a mini combo,and a freestyle?but still ,they are still a combo rite

  23. A-NeW
    Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 16:57:33

    a freestyle would be a situation in wich you don't "prepare" the combo, you just do tricks and the other tricks come by intuition

    a mini combo would be a short combo.....i guess

    Greets,
    [A-NeW]

  24. Awesome
    Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 20:53:46

    QUOTE (mr phua sy @ Apr 21 2009, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    what is the difference between a mini combo,and a freestyle?but still ,they are still a combo rite

    A mini combo is a short series of tricks that go well together, they are usualy only a couple of tricks long, they are useful because you can practice the linkages as a mini combo and use that instead of going trick > trick >trick, they let you make combos easier and usually better, because you don't have to put as much effort into individual tricks, but as units known as mini combos.

    A freestyle is a combo that is just spun with no preparation, if you picked up a pen right now and started spinning you would most likely be freestyling. Freestyles often take advantage of a wide range of mini combos so they are smooth and contain variety.

  25. Xero
    Date: Tue, Apr 21 2009 23:48:39

    How To Make A Good Combo

    • Watch various spinners' combos - solo vids are always nice
    • Watch collabs to find a prefered style
    • Study tricks you find visually stimulating
    • Attempt incorporating those tricks into your spinning


    What Is A Good Combo
    • Doesn't have a lot of repetative tricks
    • Tricks are smooth and flow into one another with ease
    • Difficulty comes hand in hand with variation
    • Powerful finisher

  26. SJ
    Date: Wed, Apr 22 2009 00:50:24

    QUOTE (Xero @ Apr 21 2009, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    What Is A Good Combo
    • Doesn't have a lot of repetative tricks
    • Tricks are smooth and flow into one another with ease
    • Difficulty comes hand in hand with variation
    • Powerful finisher

    thats subjective imo
    i assume you mean powerful finisher as in double-triple bust or haitua etc
    but a nice combo can have diff finishers like midbaks or some other cool stuff
    ex) raimo in ptsl 6th

  27. i.suk.at.everything
    Date: Wed, Apr 22 2009 03:56:52

    lol spinnerpeem finishers biggrin.gif

    not so much a powerful finisher, but a finisher that makes the combo look complete. e.g. not bak > midbak > ringbak.

  28. SJ
    Date: Wed, Apr 22 2009 04:00:42

    well, it sort of depends on the spinner

    if its someone like raimo he prolly isnt gonna do something like hai tua x2 or bust x 5

    he'd probably do something more smooth

    and for other spinners too.

    depends on what kind of combo you're performing

  29. Xero
    Date: Wed, Apr 22 2009 04:14:54

    QUOTE (SJ @ Apr 21 2009, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    thats subjective imo
    i assume you mean powerful finisher as in double-triple bust or haitua etc
    but a nice combo can have diff finishers like midbaks or some other cool stuff
    ex) raimo in ptsl 6th

    As long as it's not Sfsr's famous TA finisher, then I'd consider it powerful.

  30. Charlie
    Date: Wed, Apr 22 2009 04:33:14

    QUOTE (Xero @ Apr 21 2009, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    As long as it's not Sfsr's famous TA finisher, then I'd consider it powerful.

    Haha, indeed. Listen to xero guys, he knows what he's talking about.

    Feels like I've said this before.

  31. mr phua sy
    Date: Wed, Apr 22 2009 10:29:59

    QUOTE (A-NeW @ Apr 22 2009, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    a freestyle would be a situation in wich you don't "prepare" the combo, you just do tricks and the other tricks come by intuition

    a mini combo would be a short combo.....i guess

    Greets,
    [A-NeW]

    how to ppl differentiate between a combo and a freestyle if u jus post a vid with a titile:PENSPINNNING?

  32. phua sy
    Date: Tue, May 19 2009 14:18:21

    What do u all mean by style, can u all elaborate further?

    Smoothness of the combo means jus able to change directions swiftly and?

    When u all say the difficulty of the combo. does it means adding hybrids

    Is this a nice combo?

    inverse sonic 23-13 rev ia 13-12 rev ia 12-23 inverse sonic 23-13 pass 13- 34 sonic 34-24 rev ma 24-23 inverse sonic 23-13 neosonic 13-t1 flta rev t1-t1 extended ta bust t1 -12

  33. Malch
    Date: Tue, May 19 2009 18:23:33

    QUOTE (mr phua sy @ Apr 22 2009, 06:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    how to ppl differentiate between a combo and a freestyle if u jus post a vid with a titile:PENSPINNNING?

    You can't really differentiate unless you know the spinner, I guess.
    QUOTE
    What do u all mean by style, can u all elaborate further?

    It's basically different ways you do tricks, beyond what can be notated. There are other aspects too, but it's hard to explain.
    QUOTE
    Smoothness of the combo means jus able to change directions swiftly and?

    It means avoiding undesirable jerky motions and having a relatively constant pen motion throughout the combo (unless it's intentional).
    QUOTE
    When u all say the difficulty of the combo. does it means adding hybrids

    If they're difficult hybrids, then I guess they'd add difficulty...
    QUOTE
    Is this a nice combo?

    inverse sonic 23-13 rev ia 13-12 rev ia 12-23 inverse sonic 23-13 pass 13- 34 sonic 34-24 rev ma 24-23 inverse sonic 23-13 neosonic 13-t1 flta rev t1-t1 extended ta bust t1 -12

    It's okay, but IMO it's a bit spammy on the arounds and inverse sonics. Also, the change in direction at the end would prolly look awkward.

  34. phua sy
    Date: Wed, May 20 2009 06:40:48

    QUOTE (Malch @ May 20 2009, 02:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    You can't really differentiate unless you know the spinner, I guess.

    It's basically different ways you do tricks, beyond what can be notated. There are other aspects too, but it's hard to explain.

    So is there any spinners that has no style or changes style everytime he has a new combo?


    Spoiler:
    Extended Thumbaround T1-12>Pass Reverse 12-T1>Thumbaround Normal T1-T1>T1 Charge Normal 1.0>Index Around w/ thumb push T1-12>Pass Reverse 12-23>Twisted Sonic Normal 23-12>Inverse Twisted Sonic Reverse 12-23>Warped Sonic Normal 23-34>Pass Normal 34-23>Inverse Sonic Normal 23-13>Wiper Reverse 13>Pass Reverse 13-34>Pass Normal 34-23>Twisted Sonic Normal 23-12>Pass Reverse 12-23>Reverse Sonic Clip 23-34 1.0>MiddleAround 0.5 24-12(Not sure how to notate this. )>Inverse Sonic Reverse 12-13>Pass Reverse 13-34>RingAround Normal 34-34>Pass Reverse 34-T3>Thumbaround Normal T3-T1>T1 Charge Reverse 1.0>Fingerless Thumbaround Reverse T1-12>Korean NeoBackaround 12-12>Fingerless Pass Normal 12-23>Korean Backaround 23-23 1.5>Korean NeoBackaround 23-23>Fingerless Pass Normal 23-34>Korean Backaround 34-23


    So how good is that?