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Serious Discussion / Are martial arts effective?

  1. Dark Angel-REX
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 14:05:14

    Are martial arts effective?

    I thought up of this question when a friend of mine who is brown belt in Karate said he is most likely capable of winning street fights.



    I actually think it's kinda ridiculous to think that martial arts will most likely make people capable of winning a street fights. I've experienced several lynch, and although I could maybe win against 4, I find it extremely difficult, and most of the time, I get beaten until I can't move.
    A friend of mine, on the other hand, who never experienced street fighting thinks he could win even if the enemy is 10 people. He says he will always go for Kyusho, but I don't think it's as easy as 123 as he describes.

    and people have so many different opinions. People who do Karate thinks Karate is master of fighting. People who do kickboxing thinks kickboxing is master of fighting. People who do Jiu-Jitsu think Jiu-Jitsu is master of fighting. And they all think they will win in street fighting.


    Okay, I know that many street fighters are either "experienced non-martial arts fighter" or "no experience but travels in large numbers", or at lesser possibility, "martial arts fighter". I think experienced non-martial arts fighter is strong as they are experienced and probably know what the enemy might come with. I think non experienced but large number is strong as they got numbers (and thinking that beating the boss might make them go away is ridiculous). I think Martial arts fighter is strong as they are because they know techniques.
    But I don't think it makes much difference.



    what do you guys think?

  2. Tim
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 14:50:59

    QUOTE
    ...thinks he could win even if the enemy is 10 people.


    Sounds like he watches too many action movies. There are very few people that would have a chance against ten people, unless they weren't attacking all at once.

  3. phua sy
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 15:14:56

    QUOTE (Tim @ Nov 7 2009, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Sounds like he watches too many action movies. There are very few people that would have a chance against ten people, unless they weren't attacking all at once.

    Maybe Aikido's Randori is able to counter against them i suppose.I never saw a Aikidoka fighting in a street fight before,thus i am just assuming.

    Kysho is easy,IF you are a master.Just poke poke,you are down.

  4. Jaybles
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 15:38:07

    Depends on how, where and what you learn and how its applied.
    From a Singaporean's vantage, Aikido is really not that suitable for street fights, neither is karate. Against a single opponent, sure, a karate-ka can take him on as they learn. That is until it gets close.

    To me, at least here, Jujitsu would rank pretty well in street fights. Having done 2 years at one of the two schools here and a few lessons at the other, I would say that against a reasonable number would be all right. Ill have to continue:

  5. Jaybles
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 15:39:00

    Thats because we are trained not only in single but group combat. Most of the time its friendly but there is simulation of multiple attackers as well.

    That aspect coupled with the well distributed kata:
    1. Basic karate style unarmed combat (punching/kicking)
    2. Throws
    3. Locks
    4. Chokes
    5. Grappling
    6. Weapons (To use and against)

    You'll still stand a pretty good chance upright as well as on the ground.

    Something quite similar is Krav Maga. It's designed for lethal situations, single and group.

  6. phua sy
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 15:40:20

    QUOTE (Jaybles @ Nov 7 2009, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Depends on how, where and what you learn and how its applied.
    From a Singaporean's vantage, Aikido is really not that suitable for street fights, neither is karate. Against a single opponent, sure, a karate-ka can take him on as they learn. That is until it gets close.

    To me, at least here, Jujitsu would rank pretty well in street fights. Having done 2 years at one of the two schools here and a few lessons at the other, I would say that against a reasonable number would be all right. Ill have to continue:

    Have you even attended other Martial arts lesson other than jujitsu?Have you tried jujitsu on a street fight?

  7. Jaybles
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 15:46:20

    of taking ten of them.

    That's where Parkour comes in handy. smile.gif

    Again, really sorry for the multiposting!

  8. Dark Angel-REX
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 16:36:05

    QUOTE (phua sy @ Nov 8 2009, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Have you even attended other Martial arts lesson other than jujitsu?Have you tried jujitsu on a street fight?


    QFT, and that was exactly what i was pointing out.


    People who do Karate thinks learning Karate make them good in street fights over other martial arts. People who do Jujitsu thinks learning Jujitsu make them good in street fights over other martial arts. It's really normal for people to have pride in their genre of martial arts, but thinking more objectively, is learning Martial art make people effective at street fighting?
    Kyusho jutsu are effective, but the enemy is moving. Not standing still. Even punching the enemy is hard if they move around a lot, so how would you even be able to poke very small but moving target with very high accuracy? Impossible. You'll get fucked before trying to aim.

    In my experience, in street fighting, ANYTHING is possible. They throw rocks at you. They swing bats at you. They throw sand at you and blind you and get you. They sometimes trick you. They have back up hidden elsewhere. Without even trying to hold a stance, they just jump right at you. Otherwise, they just swing their arms in anger. Some might be smart enough to use the legs. They do a lot of unexpected things. They have knives. Some of them really throw them at you.

  9. Jaybles
    Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 18:19:16

    Alright, there was a discontinuity in my post if you notice. I shall elaborate now and fill in the missing parts that my internet has failed to deliver.
    Now being on a computer with the internet stable, I shall continue.

    What I had failed to post goes along these lines:

    QUOTE
    "In a real fight, it's not that easy to simply throw your opponent with apparent ease as in your trainings. This is because most of the time, the opponent would have:

    • Friends
    • Almost no martial arts training
    • A weapon


    I shall expunge on these factors: -

    When an opponent has almost no martial arts training, it is almost certain that he will simply send a barrage of flailing fists and reckless kicks towards your more vulnerable regions (the face, the gut, the groin, etc). Eventually, he will get close and both will end up on the ground.
    This is where the non-grappling martial arts fail.

    Aikido for example, which I have taken for a while and studied, has almost no ground techniques apart from kneeling locks and chokes.
    Aikido is mostly a non-contact martial art which focus is to restrain rather than to disable.

    Karate is a mostly contact martial art, employing physical blows with almost no focus on restraint. This when employed whilst upright and balanced can prove quite devastating owing to the really really really painful blows they can inflict. I have not much experience in this art, I admit, but I have sparred Karate-ka both in the street and in training. They bloody hell hurt.

    This is why I say that arts that are generally well rounded such as Jujitsu and Krav Maga are more suited for street combat rather than the above because of the versatility and training of the student. It depends on whether you learn traditional or competition styles of Jujitsu as well. For Judo, the competition form of Jujitsu, does not aim to kill or to impede rather to score points.

    In my personal trainings, we have simulated experiences with knives, sticks, even wakazashis. We have also simulated group combat but not to the extent of ten men against one. This view is purely from a mainly Jujitsu-ka practitioner but I have researched into other forms of arts. I have not yet even begun talk of other arts beyond Jujitsu, Aikido, Karate and to a small extent, Krav Maga (which incidentally is designed to be used in street conflict)."


    That was what was supposed to be between the post after Phua Sy's.

    I agree with you, DAR, that street fighting is extremely different from the sterile, almost coddling training sessions. I myself have experienced a multitude of attacks on my person, armed and unarmed, friendly and hostile. However, it is the fact that most fights end up on the ground that I'm basing my opinion on and therefore my argument.

    QUOTE
    People who do Karate thinks learning Karate make them good in street fights over other martial arts. People who do Jujitsu thinks learning Jujitsu make them good in street fights over other martial arts. It's really normal for people to have pride in their genre of martial arts, but thinking more objectively, is learning Martial art make people effective at street fighting?
    Kyusho jutsu are effective, but the enemy is moving. Not standing still. Even punching the enemy is hard if they move around a lot, so how would you even be able to poke very small but moving target with very high accuracy? Impossible. You'll get fucked before trying to aim.

    In my experience, in street fighting, ANYTHING is possible. They throw rocks at you. They swing bats at you. They throw sand at you and blind you and get you. They sometimes trick you. They have back up hidden elsewhere. Without even trying to hold a stance, they just jump right at you. Otherwise, they just swing their arms in anger. Some might be smart enough to use the legs. They do a lot of unexpected things. They have knives. Some of them really throw them at you.


    Exactly my point. As I have expounded, street fights are nothing but chaotic bouts. No one really knows what the deuce they are doing during a fight. It's practically useless holding a stance other than a basic ready one and forget the fanciful throws. In addition, in a group fight, going down to the ground is lethal so the most logical thing to do is to disable each of them in turn, which is what I Aikido teaches, to restrain without much force. Jujitsu takes a more forceful approach to that and most times we are taught just to break the limb or use whatever to take one of them down just so we can handle the others.

  10. Glamouraz
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:41:17

    I do karate, but I don't think it's the best against street fights and I'm not confident in engaging in street fights because really, there isn't any rules unlike martial arts where everything has to be proper.

  11. phua sy
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 06:48:13

    QUOTE (Jaybles @ Nov 8 2009, 02:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Alright, there was a discontinuity in my post if you notice. I shall elaborate now and fill in the missing parts that my internet has failed to deliver.
    Now being on a computer with the internet stable, I shall continue.

    What I had failed to post goes along these lines:



    That was what was supposed to be between the post after Phua Sy's.

    I agree with you, DAR, that street fighting is extremely different from the sterile, almost coddling training sessions. I myself have experienced a multitude of attacks on my person, armed and unarmed, friendly and hostile. However, it is the fact that most fights end up on the ground that I'm basing my opinion on and therefore my argument.



    Exactly my point. As I have expounded, street fights are nothing but chaotic bouts. No one really knows what the deuce they are doing during a fight. It's practically useless holding a stance other than a basic ready one and forget the fanciful throws. In addition, in a group fight, going down to the ground is lethal so the most logical thing to do is to disable each of them in turn, which is what I Aikido teaches, to restrain without much force. Jujitsu takes a more forceful approach to that and most times we are taught just to break the limb or use whatever to take one of them down just so we can handle the others.

    Aikido breaks limbs if you use force.That is why they are called wrist breaking techniques.When people grab a Aikido-ka,he should be done for.You should ask Willux,a penspinner and a Aikido practicer,for more infomation about Aikido.


    QUOTE (Glamouraz @ Nov 8 2009, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I do karate, but I don't think it's the best against street fights and I'm not confident in engaging in street fights because really, there isn't any rules unlike martial arts where everything has to be proper.

    Is martial arts even supposed to be used for street fighting rather than self defense?Personally,Martial arts is used to prevent a fight rather than to start one.

  12. Dark Angel-REX
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 07:32:29

    phua sy, you don't understand what this discussion is for.
    I know many martial arts are "self defense". But I'm saying if martial arts are effective in street fights.



    but fine, then let's put street fighting aside and think about martial arts. in MMA, you can see a lot of different type of fighting including boxing, jiujitsu, karate, wrestling, judo, and sometimes aikido too. But I never seen Aikido doing such a good job during MMA. but they should be pretty much skilled.
    Conclusion? I don't think being an expert in Aikido mean that they are efficient over other martial arts.


    Now let's put it in street fighting case. Okay, most of the street fighting people don't do martial arts, but experienced guys are pretty strong. Somewhat smart as well. They have pretty good wits, and applies their intelligence on environment.
    In Karate, you learn "effective" self-defense by teaching attacks according to situation they come up with, but the opponent is a friend or the trainer. You can't use any other weapon than what you are provided with. There's no sand, no garbage cans, no rocks, and you are only allowed to do moves you are told to do.

    I know that what I said about training is merely information I heard from my friend who does karate, and I have never experienced martial arts so I can't say for sure. But there are so much more possibility than what the self-defense martial arts teaches. It's very much more difficult in reality.


    Put the experienced street fighter in Doujyou and make him fight with Karate guy. Maybe Karate guy could win. But put Karate guy in middle of the street and make him fight with experienced street fighter. Experienced street fighter has better chance of winning. In my opinion.
    But I never experienced martial arts so I can't say for sure.

  13. phua sy
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 10:07:13

    I have a few queries here.

    When you say experienced street fighter,that means he has encountered different type of scenarios and know what to do when the situation occurs again?


    And what kind of street fights?Those with the conflinct and fight immediatley on the spot or a place where they planned to go to at a specific time?

    Anyway,kyusho-jitsu.



    Just to point out,they are not moving like experienced street fighter.Just targets that are moving for kyusho.

  14. phua sy
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 10:21:09

    QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Nov 7 2009, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I think Martial arts fighter is strong as they are because they know techniques.
    But I don't think it makes much difference.

    what do you guys think?

    Techniques works pretty well in my opinion.Mostly fights will go down to the floor.That is when Bjj techniques comes in with a few dirty tricks.I did try a Bjj choke last time and it worked like a charm.

  15. Jaybles
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 13:40:14

    Phua Sy, I do know what Aikido is, thank you very much. Did you read my whole post? I believe what your perception of Aikido in a street fight is like Steven Seagal in his movies. I doubt you've encountered an occasion where you're in an actual street fight. Its not so easy to do the perfect wrist or limb grabs you have to do to execute a throw. The opponent is always moving, unpredictably and recklessly. Its almost impossible to do most of the throws that you learn in training.

  16. Jaybles
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 13:41:03

    Also, BJJ is essentially Jujitsu, taking only ground techniques. Naturally, since Gracie adapted it from traditional Jujitsu.

    I wholely agree with DAR. In a multiple attacker scenario, to fall and prolong the grapple is utter folly. Choke techniques never work well here. You have to kill or at least maim and put him out of action if weapons are involved.

    Also, your point about grabbing, I agree. However, that only applies at the initial stages of the contact.

  17. Jaybles
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 13:42:01

    Just to reiterate DAR's point, Aikido would never have as much of a chance to do well against a skilled MMA-er because the kata is simply too restricted. The MMA-er incorporates aspects from many MAs and thus has a more balanced and well-rounded pool to draw from.

    Fighting is different in controlled settings and in street fights. That is the basic fundemental crux of the whole topic here, Phua Sy. It doesn't seem as though you can see that.

  18. Clyde
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 14:28:11

    lol? 10 people? I think that's possible if you're Bruce lee, but I stick w/ a hand gun...that's the only thing that could kill shaolins and martial artists

  19. Dark Angel-REX
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 14:48:20

    QUOTE (phua sy @ Nov 8 2009, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    When you say experienced street fighter,that means he has encountered different type of scenarios and know what to do when the situation occurs again?

    something like that. But when a person is "experienced", I don't think they don't always really think about all these different scenarios. They rather just think up of a move that they know will hit in most cases.


    QUOTE
    And what kind of street fights?Those with the conflinct and fight immediatley on the spot or a place where they planned to go to at a specific time?

    mostly conflict. I didn't make any gang so I don't really know about "fighting party" but usually in fighting party, they make the bottom rules (like no eye poking or ball hitting and basic stuff like that).

    I meant fights where there is no rule what so ever.


    QUOTE
    Anyway,kyusho-jitsu.
    *youtube video
    Just to point out,they are not moving like experienced street fighter.Just targets that are moving for kyusho.

    Well none of the guys are trying to actually attack him. so it's kinda pointless putting that up. If you were just pointing out that real pros could get kyusho, then that'll work, but in real street fights, the enemy will attack too with whatever they've got.

  20. phua sy
    Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 16:50:14

    QUOTE (Jaybles @ Nov 8 2009, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Phua Sy, I do know what Aikido is, thank you very much. Did you read my whole post? I believe what your perception of Aikido in a street fight is like Steven Seagal in his movies. I doubt you've encountered an occasion where you're in an actual street fight. Its not so easy to do the perfect wrist or limb grabs you have to do to execute a throw. The opponent is always moving, unpredictably and recklessly. Its almost impossible to do most of the throws that you learn in training.

    For your infomation,i have never ever saw a Steven Seagal movie.I never even saw him before.I have been in conflincts that go into fights.One on one on the spot.I have no martial art history.We were just punching and kicking as much as we can.That is why i came to this topic.To see a reasoning on whether martial arts is essential or experience only.

    But anyway,i just messaged a martial artist and asked on his opinion.I will share it with you all when i receive it.My opinion is just,meh,that is all.

  21. 1a5kuc49gr
    Date: Thu, Nov 12 2009 15:42:38

    no amount of martial arts training will ever prepare you for a real street fight. the only defining quality of a good fighter is experience. someone who has trained for 20 years in martial arts will get their ass handed to them by anyone who has been in a few fights before. when it comes down to it, it has to do with what you are willing to do to win, and if you can handle the adrenaline. people with experience aren't afraid to lose in a fight. they have the upperhand.

  22. Jaybles
    Date: Thu, Nov 12 2009 16:34:09

    Oh, I beg to differ. Although, first do please attempt to provide supporting arguments before coming up with such a conclusion.

    I do believe that within those "20 years in martial arts" include experience in a spar of sorts. And I very much doubt a person with twenty years in martial arts would "get their ass handed to them" by one who's been in a couple of bouts.

    I don't think it would have pained you to have the basic courtesy to do your research first. There are a number of factors involved.

    In a martial artist's training, they undergo 'Conditioning'. They hone their 'Reflexes'. And they introduce 'Discipline' into their form. They push the very limits of their 'Endurance'. Some even dwelve into the spiritual aspect of it and attain 'Muga', a state of extreme alertness and awareness.

    It is a lot of experience, though you might not think so. A skilled street fighter is as strong as his most reckless flail. A skilled all-rounder martial artist has a tougher body and a stronger mind.

  23. Mystic
    Date: Thu, Nov 12 2009 18:32:29

    I completely agree with jaybles. Street fighters are reckless and fight with anger. They arent going to have a clear mind, theyre just throwing random punches.

  24. phua sy
    Date: Thu, Nov 12 2009 18:40:46

    QUOTE (Mystic @ Nov 13 2009, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I completely agree with jaybles. Street fighters are reckless and fight with anger. They arent going to have a clear mind, theyre just throwing random punches.

    Not all.Some know what to not do as they know they will end up losing if they are not careful.Maybe drunkards will be reckless.

  25. hoiboy
    Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 01:18:47

    The problem is most of the time, street fights aren't honorable. You don't get 1v1, forewarning, etc.

  26. spinneraddictionsfriend
    Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 01:26:09

    QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Nov 7 2009, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Are martial arts effective?

    I thought up of this question when a friend of mine who is brown belt in Karate said he is most likely capable of winning street fights.



    I actually think it's kinda ridiculous to think that martial arts will most likely make people capable of winning a street fights. I've experienced several lynch, and although I could maybe win against 4, I find it extremely difficult, and most of the time, I get beaten until I can't move.
    A friend of mine, on the other hand, who never experienced street fighting thinks he could win even if the enemy is 10 people. He says he will always go for Kyusho, but I don't think it's as easy as 123 as he describes.

    and people have so many different opinions. People who do Karate thinks Karate is master of fighting. People who do kickboxing thinks kickboxing is master of fighting. People who do Jiu-Jitsu think Jiu-Jitsu is master of fighting. And they all think they will win in street fighting.


    Okay, I know that many street fighters are either "experienced non-martial arts fighter" or "no experience but travels in large numbers", or at lesser possibility, "martial arts fighter". I think experienced non-martial arts fighter is strong as they are experienced and probably know what the enemy might come with. I think non experienced but large number is strong as they got numbers (and thinking that beating the boss might make them go away is ridiculous). I think Martial arts fighter is strong as they are because they know techniques.
    But I don't think it makes much difference.



    what do you guys think?


    i don't think so because they just teach you certain things like how to block a certain kick they throw or something and i think if anything they should get you to work out so you can have some muscular streanth too