UPSB v3
General Discussion / World Cup '10 Qualifications - Videos
-
Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 19:43:53
http://www.youtube.com/PSworldcup2010
Spoiler:
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/user/PSWorldCup2010...26B4661C1A4C337
Top 8 collabs will qualify.
Penalties for rule violations: click here
------------------------------
Now the organizer for each community must send me or Crash their ranking.
You must rank the 13 other collabs in order, from best to worst. DO NOT RANK YOUR OWN COLLAB.
You must only consider pen spinning, not editing, when judging. You must not consider whether or not collabs have broken rules or not.
Your judging must be a discussion within your community. It can be a public vote or a decision amongst a small number of members.
The deadline is November 28th, 2009.
Judging received:
KPSA
HKPSA
PPP
PSH
VNPSB
UPSB
SPC
JEB
BPSC
TWPS
FPSB
SPSC
BRPSB -
Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 20:06:42
HOLY CRAP!!!
PSH is owning it
. Did you see Olii's combo -
Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 20:15:21
TWPS's collab is not good as i thought it will be, some are very strong spinners but others are relatively weak, so don't really appeal to me as much
THPSC is obiously hidding their abilities, lol.
where is s777 pralux and fratlyem in FPSB's collab? lol, but it was still a very strong collab
My favourite one is BPSC's collab, i love their combos, see a lot of originality in there
JEB finally got their god hands out for international events, lol. But they really haven't show any world shaking stuff yet, hope they will in the WC
PSH had a collab of all new ppl
Can't wait to c UPSB's collab
And what is going on with HKPSA? did they give up or something? -
Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 20:55:50
PPP's video will be as soon as possible, our editor is getting it finished atm.
By they way, can we put the video on our youtube account since it is official PPP Promo?
Sorry for being probably the last one. -
Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 20:59:15QUOTE (Rarka @ Nov 7 2009, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>PPP's video will be as soon as possible, our editor is getting it finished atm.
By they way, can we put the video on our youtube account since it is official PPP Promo?
Sorry for being probably the last one.
no problem, most communities have uploaded themselves. -
Date: Sat, Nov 7 2009 22:17:00
Haven't got the time to check them all yet, but a few first comment:
PSH- new people~ I was surprised not to see 12ve..
KPSA- slightly disappointed, didn't feel that great.
JEB- my weak point, I always loved JEB. lovely lineup, I hope the collab will be enough to bring them in.
THPSC- was Dongza spinning a CYL? it looked huge... I also loved Supwait's combo. and peem's finisher, lol
I'll see the rest tomorrow, quite tired at the moment.
Can't wait to see UPSB ^^ -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:04:04QUOTE (AyySoLo @ Nov 7 2009, 09:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And what is going on with HKPSA? did they give up or something?
If I read OnLy's post in the HKPSA forum correctly, then the collab is being worked on and is going to be released later on ... -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:11:00
i was very impressed with GPC, minwoo's combo was very stylish and varied, lovely lovely. mastered that "spread?" trick thing sorry im not sure if thats the correct term.
gollumsk8 was also very very very impressive. what unorthatdox linkages ^^, great ending too.
SPC also was a surprise, and same with VNPSB. many strong spinners from there.
JEB's lineup is very awesome, its apparent they arnt using their dominant pens but i really hope their style and old school charm will be enuogh to let them in.
so many white long heavy pens.....my head hurts....
good luck to UPSB ^^. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:13:41
upsb collab is out
brpsb fixed their collb (dunno what they fixeD but watch it again) -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:20:58
THPSC dissapointed. period. .
TWPS was meh
HKPSA was all over the place
PSH is gonna rock the house.
GPC was awesome!
AND HOLY CRAP WHEN DID JEB GET ALL THEIR PRO SPINNERS BACK? -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:24:05QUOTE (hoiboy @ Nov 7 2009, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>THPSC dissapointed. period. .
TWPS was meh
HKPSA was all over the place
PSH is gonna rock the house.
GPC was awesome!
AND HOLY CRAP WHEN DID JEB GET ALL THEIR PRO SPINNERS BACK?
you've seen HKPSA's video? -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:27:06QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 7 2009, 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>you've seen HKPSA's video?
individual clips
Edit: from what i've seen, HKPSA is rushing to finish theirs right now -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 01:48:25
TWPS - It was okay. x1213 was my favorite... where's smallwind?!?!! D:
UPSB - Mystic
like the music ^^ awesome collab.
PSH - going to dominate. all new spinners which surprised me.
JEB - I like the return of the pros but SEVEN's combo was weak in my opinion. disappointing. But hope they can defend their title. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 02:45:39
yo, UPSB's collab has so many awesome spinners, but imao it could be better if they filtered out a few more.
idc why the editor choose to keep all these spinner when the collab is obiously over time limit for good 15 seconds...really could have filtered out one or more videos. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 02:55:33
I <3 UPSB's collab but it's over the time limit...
-
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 02:58:50
upsb: <3 everyone
gpc: was great, minwoo and bbr
not sure what bbr will break out, assuming he improves on 1h2p.... XD
thpsc: i'm also confused about zongza+buster...
and the editing wasn't great either, the titles occasionally got in the way
jeb: the big guns are out
fpsb: for some reason i lost interest, maybe the bulk collab watching or maybe the collab it self
but i noticed in the comments, epic fail in french is l'epic fail XD -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 10:31:44
-
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 11:28:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClehxOuA1w4
This is the video i sent to enter the upsb collab. Can someone tell me what my video didn't have that the other did have and so i got filtered? I really want to know.
Thanx in advance. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 13:55:36QUOTE (SpinFo @ Nov 8 2009, 06:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClehxOuA1w4
This is the video i sent to enter the upsb collab. Can someone tell me what my video didn't have that the other did have and so i got filtered? I really want to know.
Thanx in advance.
Our collab was long enough...>_< -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 14:28:04
updated with PPP, HKPSA.
Now the organizer for each community must send me or Crash their ranking.
You must rank the 13 other collabs in order, from best to worst. DO NOT RANK YOUR OWN COLLAB.
You must only consider pen spinning, not editing, when judging.
Your judging must be a discussion within your community. It can be a public vote or a decision amongst a small number of members.
The deadline is November 28th, 2009.
======
you can now use this thread to post your own ranking of the collabs. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 14:35:21
i have to agree spinfo should have gotten in? perhaps the combo had too much, the inbetween moves needed to be smoother.
very awesome ending ^^ keep up those crazy hand holds. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 17:23:00
added download link for JEB in video description
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?hgzgn2oi1zt -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 18:04:15
http://www.sendspace.com/file/50yt6y
Download of PPP's video, much better quality. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 19:54:36
JEB was (god damnit) so good. They always pick the best music... Seven's was actually one of the best. Didn't like how some videos were cut off.
GPC had good spinning, weird song.
FPSB, man missed out on spinners and the music was horrific. Hopefully this doesn't mean they don't make the competition.
UPSB had a good solid video. I just kind of wanted a bit more from it somehow.
BPSC was my favorite. Great spinning, awesome song. They just always have the same lineup though.. -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 20:14:19
Wow....2009....im so stupid......
remember guys....the best video would be the one that just barley makes it in lol.....because this doesn't count at all towards the actual world cup placings, you want to use as little as your new/good material as possible.... -
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 21:06:39QUOTE (Sadistic @ Nov 8 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Wow....2009....im so stupid......
remember guys....the best video would be the one that just barley makes it in lol.....because this doesn't count at all towards the actual world cup placings, you want to use as little as your new/good material as possible....
but if ppl in these collabs are not gonna be ppl participating in the actual WC, then the stronger the better.
-
Date: Sun, Nov 8 2009 21:27:43QUOTE (AyySoLo @ Nov 8 2009, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but if ppl in these collabs are not gonna be ppl participating in the actual WC, then the stronger the better.
True lol. But I don't see any team that really did that besides FPSB... -
Date: Mon, Nov 9 2009 00:21:49QUOTE (Sadistic @ Nov 8 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Wow....2009....im so stupid......
remember guys....the best video would be the one that just barley makes it in lol.....because this doesn't count at all towards the actual world cup placings, you want to use as little as your new/good material as possible....
uhh yeah but if you don't even make it in, you wouldn't even worry about placing... so it is a risk -
Date: Mon, Nov 9 2009 02:08:36
All are good but .... I think My VNPSB is very Inexperienced and MY collab is don't nice .
GOOD LUCK to all Board ....... -
Date: Mon, Nov 9 2009 04:20:27QUOTE (Sadistic @ Nov 8 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>True lol. But I don't see any team that really did that besides FPSB...
em...PSH? -
Date: Mon, Nov 9 2009 05:10:34
uh rankings?
:|
1 SPC
2 BPSC
3 TWPS
4 PSH
5-13 rest -
Date: Mon, Nov 9 2009 13:10:44
Yeah, it's really nice to see that a lot of people actually enjoyed our video from BPSC.
So we hope it will be ok =)
I just need to see all the others vids to see how good they are =) -
Date: Thu, Nov 12 2009 20:48:03
BPSC's Knuckles actually made a supreme combo.
but if i saw correctly, does his ending was failed and re-edit? -
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 19:58:33
should every one be voting or what?
:/ -
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 22:21:08
THPSC dissapointed..
TWPS was okay
HKPSA was everywhere
PSH is gonna own
GPC was awesome! -
Date: Sun, Nov 15 2009 00:11:10QUOTE (hoiboy @ Nov 7 2009, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>THPSC dissapointed. period. .
TWPS was meh
HKPSA was all over the place
PSH is gonna rock the house.
GPC was awesome!
AND HOLY CRAP WHEN DID JEB GET ALL THEIR PRO SPINNERS BACK?QUOTE (pakspinner @ Nov 14 2009, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>THPSC dissapointed..
TWPS was okay
HKPSA was everywhere
PSH is gonna own
GPC was awesome!
Way to copy my post. -
Date: Sun, Nov 15 2009 02:21:55
that is too funny
-
Date: Sun, Nov 15 2009 02:24:47
sorry about that hoiboy i didnt know i was copying u
-
Date: Sun, Nov 15 2009 02:27:53
no u didn't
-
Date: Mon, Nov 16 2009 01:20:50
but the problem with holding back ur tricks, doesnt that make you have a lower seed? so the overall WC anyway is
going to be tougher?
anyways i really really want to see JEB get in. i am not going to miss a rematch between toro and eriror =_+ -
Date: Mon, Nov 16 2009 06:00:40
i dun noe why got ppl said that thpsc's collab is not good unuf,i tot thpsc,bpsc,psh and jeb have the best bollab among all.the spinners have great style and difficulty
i really enjoy bpsc collab,nice music and spinner -
Date: Mon, Nov 16 2009 06:09:12QUOTE (song @ Nov 16 2009, 01:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i dun noe why got ppl said that thpsc's collab is not good unuf,i tot thpsc,bpsc,psh and jeb have the best bollab among all.the spinners have great style and difficulty
i really enjoy bpsc collab,nice music and spinner
seriously? i dont think anybody said thpsc would not qualify... -
Date: Mon, Nov 16 2009 16:53:32QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 16 2009, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>seriously? i dont think anybody said thpsc would not qualify...
lol,seriously,i didnt say that they cant qualify,if im not wrong,b4 this got comments posted by other spinners said that thpsc are nt gud enuf(hoiboy and pakspinner) -
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 02:04:37QUOTE (song @ Nov 17 2009, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>lol,seriously,i didnt say that they cant qualify,if im not wrong,b4 this got comments posted by other spinners said that thpsc are nt gud enuf(hoiboy and pakspinner)
what hoiboy and pakspinner said were compared to every other thpsc collab/combo they've seen
now... what's a good analogy...
kinda like roger federer being knocked out in the semis of a grand slam
hell, thats still good, he's still an amazing...
actually, that analogy doesn't work quite well......
what they're saying is that they're holding back, and weren't the knock-out amazing thpsc they're used to seeing
if gpc and thpsc get through, i'm looking forward to the minwoo/peem WT grudge match -
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 02:55:11
imao thpsc will be in for sure
just that compare to other recent collabs like Explore M, this one has much fewer "wow" factors in it.
and i'm happy that ppl think PSH collab is good, when i organized it i thought it was so bad, we barely had enough videos
about the seeding, if your goal is to win the champion, then does it matter if u end up 8th seed or 1st seed? You will eventually have to beat the shit out of every team to get the top place, right? -
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 03:03:07QUOTE (AyySoLo @ Nov 16 2009, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>about the seeding, if your goal is to win the champion, then does it matter if u end up 8th seed or 1st seed? You will eventually have to beat the shit out of every team to get the top place, right?
Exactly, as long as you make top 8, then youre good. Thats the ONLY purpose of these collabs.
-
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 03:08:20
pakspinner didn't say it, he just copied me. i doubt he actually watched the video
THPSC really didn't have as good as a vid as M Explore. overall they did good, but with all the hype and expectation from the WT, I expected them to do better. -
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 06:59:02QUOTE (k-ryder @ Nov 17 2009, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>what hoiboy and pakspinner said were compared to every other thpsc collab/combo they've seen
now... what's a good analogy...
kinda like roger federer being knocked out in the semis of a grand slam
hell, thats still good, he's still an amazing...
actually, that analogy doesn't work quite well......
what they're saying is that they're holding back, and weren't the knock-out amazing thpsc they're used to seeing
if gpc and thpsc get through, i'm looking forward to the minwoo/peem WT grudge match
about a week or so ago (maybe a bit more), spinnerpeem said he isn't competing. he wants to give other spinners in THPSC a chance to represent thailand.....
supawit's, spinnerpeem's, dongza's, tonnam's combos in Explore M were (IMO) better than their WC2010 video ones =\ seems many spinners in the collabs in general are holding a lot back. -
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 07:03:53
jeb spinners can do soo much better =P <3 nikoo
bpsc has a really nice collab, really stood out
same with spc -
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 11:51:53
for the people who do become first yes seeds dont matter.
however its still an incentive to get a higher ranking, bc lets say THPSC (for example)
was ranked lowest seed, highest seed was UPSB, then UPSB beats THPSC 1st round. THPSC is now last place (or ranked with) in the tournament. but in actuality THPSC was holding back to "save" moves while UPSB was not, and some other board who was not holding back such as SPC (for example, for example) gets a higher ranking when clearly THPSC is better (for example)
hence yes trying hard to get first seed is still important. -
Date: Tue, Nov 17 2009 20:13:29
well seeds matter to some degree, but not much
top 4 are seeded
the first round of WC is round-robin, there are 2 groups of 4 teams, you play each team once (3 battles), this is the same thing as FIFA World Cup
so top 1 and top 4 seeds are in the same group, top 2 and top 3 are in the same group.
the bottom 4 are then divided randomly in the two groups.
so it matters a little bit but it's not that important. -
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 07:00:26
We have reviewed the collabs based on the rules written in chapter 1.1.1:
Spoiler:
For measuring combo/video length we take imprecise measurement from Youtube, so spinners are given benefit of the doubt if the error appears to be less than 1 second.
For slowing down problems, it was acceptable to replay a part of a combo slowed down as long as you showed the combo without any speed change at least once.
BPSC:
Littleboy has a 28 seconds video, but the combo itself is probably under 25secs. -0.1
BRPSB:
Pires combo maybe 25, 26 seconds.
Liquid video is 28 seconds, combo maybe 25. -0.1
FPSB:
Video itself is too long, due to editing. -0.5
GPC:
Minwoo, Lekunga combos are slowed down outside of a replay. -0.5
HKPSA:
Winky 28 seconds video, combo maybe ~25. -0.1
Because of blinking effect, sometimes some spinners combo appear broken. It is possible they have submitted 2 clips and put together (which is illegal, video must be continuous), but they are given benefit of doubt.
JEB:
coco_a is possibly only 9 seconds.
KPSA:
no problem
PPP:
no problem
PSH:
Acid_DNA was slowed down outside of a replay. -0.25
SPC:
no problem
THPSC:
It is possible that spinnerpeem has made 2 videos put together, given benefit of doubt due to blinking effect.
TWPS:
no problem
UPSB:
Pen Ninja has a 26 seconds combo + video
Charlie has a 28 seconds combo AND video. -0.25
Collab is clearly too long due to too many spinners. -1.0
VNPSB:
Thesun was slowed down outside of a replay. -0.25
-------------------
Summary of penalty:
BPSC -0.1
BRPSB -0.1
FPSB -0.5
GPC -0.5
HKPSA -0.1
PSH -0.25
UPSB -1.25
VNPSB -0.25
others have no penalty.
How are points awarded:
Each community rates the other 13 collabs, meaning there are 14 lists. Each time your collab appears in the top 8 of a list, you get points:
1st place 10 pts
2nd place 8 pts
3rd place 6 pts
4th place 5 pts
5th place 4 pts
6th place 3 pts
7th place 2 pts
8th place 1 pt -
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 14:25:17
So, if I understood correctly, editing is not part of the judgment ?? O.o
-
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 15:27:21QUOTE (Tails @ Nov 21 2009, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So, if I understood correctly, editing is not part of the judgment ?? O.oQUOTEThe focus should be on the combos itself. Editing should be factor only to break a tie, if
necessary.
from rulebook
if you cant decide between two teams, take the team with best editing -
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 15:39:02
Yes I understood the rules, no problem, but I thought editing would be judged by someone else (you, Crash or any judges) as it is you who give the penalties, but thanks for the explanations
-
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 15:41:28
idk about other ppl, but i feel the penalty is kinda worthless....if you think about it, other than UPSB, all other penalties are under 1 point, so that means unless there is an exact tie at the judgement score, the penalty does not effect the result at all. So the voilating the rule is only like a tie breaker. In my opinion, not following the rule should be punished a bit harder.
-
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 15:44:49QUOTE (Tails @ Nov 21 2009, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes I understood the rules, no problem, but I thought editing would be judged by someone else (you, Crash or any judges) as it is you who give the penalties, but thanks for the explanations
you can break the rules with editing, but editing itself is not judged by communities unless necessary. so you can think that editing is like a requirement that doesn't give any point but only lose points if you dont respect the rules.QUOTE (AyySoLo @ Nov 21 2009, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>idk about other ppl, but i feel the penalty is kinda worthless....if you think about it, other than UPSB, all other penalties are under 1 point, so that means unless there is an exact tie at the judgement score, the penalty does not effect the result at all. So the voilating the rule is only like a tie breaker. In my opinion, not following the rule should be punished a bit harder.
thats because the rule violations are minor... nobody made major mistakes, even for UPSB, they will receive lower grades not because they broke the rules, but because the skill level is too uneven due to having too many spinners than necessary. I still think there is a strong possibility that at least one team will lose a rank because of penalties. -
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 21:01:24QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 21 2009, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>thats because the rule violations are minor... nobody made major mistakes, even for UPSB, they will receive lower grades not because they broke the rules, but because the skill level is too uneven due to having too many spinners than necessary. I still think there is a strong possibility that at least one team will lose a rank because of penalties.
Don't get me wrong, but what exactly is a major rule violation then? If a collab contains five spinners only which each made a combo of 30 seconds, thus the collab itself is 4:30 minutes long and is edited by Steven Spielberg? There were only six simple rules and if a community / an editor can't stick to those six rules but has to break one or even TWO of them (which is 33.3%), this is NOT a major breach of rules? I do not see eye to eye with you on this.
~Huy -
Date: Sat, Nov 21 2009 21:41:23
most of the rule violations have very no impact on the pen spinning itself, for example when combos are 25 secs but videos are longer cuz they show their victory sign or whatever. nobody cares about that, but they are rule violations so they get some small penalty.
others have some impact, like slow down of 1 second, but its not that big a deal, they dont really help seeing the combo much better. so they have a bit stronger penalty.
the most several rule break is UPSB because the video is really too long and one combo is realyl too long and that affects the pen spinning. but the impact of making it too long is already negative because the video would be much better if they removed some spinners.
maybe 1 point is nothing for a first place team, but none of the rule violations are strong enough to disqualify a team even in the top 5-6. and for low places teams, they'll have maybe 10 points max total, so even penalty ofl ess than 1 point can make the difference. I think penalty of 1.25 for UPSB is enough that if it was a 8th place team, it will be out. -
Date: Sun, Nov 22 2009 23:50:51
Zombo can you add a penalty for BPSC (or exclude them) please :
They cheated, they didn't make a special video for this tournament, they simply take better combos from their better spinners...
It's just like if FPSB take S777's combo from a solo video or fratleym's combo because we haven't find better on the board.
It's unfair, you should take a decision about it
(from Lindor :
Un truc que je trouve un peu abusé, c'est BPSC... Ils n'ont pas organisé une vraie collab, ils ont fait une vidéo avec les combos de leurs meilleurs spinneurs... Sur les 6 ou 7 spinneurs de la collab, il y en a au moins deux pour lesquels c'est gisele8 qui a choisi leur meilleur combo dans tous ceux qu'ils avaient déjà filmé auparavant... C'est un peu comme si nous on prenait les meilleurs combos jamais filmés sur FPSB, avec juste l'autorisation de l'auteur, pour la collab... Après ça, on est sûr de passer... ) -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 00:40:52
1) That is a pretty strong accusation, you would need to provide more evidence than that
2) Taking unreleased material with consent from the spinner is pretty big difference from taking an already released video with or without consent of the author. I don't think it's necessarily wrong for a spinner to film many videos at once and slowly release them when needed. Plus, consider other communities where people submitted their videos for the collab. How, as an organizer, can you really verify that those videos were really filmed recently? It's not possible. Another thing is that this qualification period was known for a really long time. If people prepared well in advance their combos before the qualification officially started, there is nothing wrong with that.
3) Of course, ideally we want people to film their videos during the period they are allowed within the competition. But the rulebook doesn't have any rules on this, so it cannot be penalized. Maybe for the world cup there can be an additional rule on releasing only original videos. A stronger requirement is to put a sheet of paper in your video with some message to prove it was filmed during the competition. We would need to make sure everybody agree and understand such a rule. Although I don't think it will be necessary because world cup battles have themes or doubles, so it would make more sense to film a video after you know the matchup. But I certainly that there should be a rule that specifically enforce usage of already released material. That should be 100% illegal if caught (e.g. someone has a link to an old solo or cv containing the same clip). -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 20:36:18
Sure :
http://bpsc.free-boards.net/video-de-colla...uut-t646-30.htm
See the post of Gisele8...
Knuckles' combo was taken from the finale of the belgium tournament :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2v6fCtWm0 (may 2009 !)
About Katix combo :
http://bpsc.free-boards.net/video-de-colla...uut-t646-15.htm
See the edit in pink in the Simpic21 post :
"D'ou sort le combo de Katix?
tournoi demifinales"
So they are old, isn't fair-play to take that
On the posts, you can see that Gisele8 was aware of that and chose the combos (the 2 that i can prove they are old and for an other thing)...
Your rules is : "make a collab", so make combos for the collab no ? Or give a definition before, because all people from all board, make a collab with new combo whereas BPSC "cheated".
Collab : combo made for it
Promo : selection of combos from anywhere
BUT you ask for a COLLAB and not a promo ! So it's justified -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 22:10:38
there is a difference between unreleased and released videos,
in your first message it says:
"C'est un peu comme si nous on prenait les meilleurs combos jamais filmés sur FPSB"
if BPSC used unreleased combos that was never released in public, then there's no problem.
now you are saying that those videos were actually released in public and used somewhere, this is a different subject. It should have been in the rules to not used released material, but it's not there so I can't really penalize. Nevertheless I will talk with BPSC about it. We would also need to check everybody's collab and make sure no other videos were re-used. -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 22:17:48QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 23 2009, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>there is a difference between unreleased and released videos,
in your first message it says:
"C'est un peu comme si nous on prenait les meilleurs combos jamais filmés sur FPSB"
It's a french expression that mean : the better of the betterQUOTEif BPSC used unreleased combos that was never released in public, then there's no problem.
But i proved the contrary.QUOTEnow you are saying that those videos were actually released in public and used somewhere, this is a different subject. It should have been in the rules to not used released material, but it's not there so I can't really penalize. Nevertheless I will talk with BPSC about it. We would also need to check everybody's collab and make sure no other videos were re-used.
But in the rules, you ask for a collab and not a promo or a selection of the better combos made by the board. -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 22:27:13
if some videos are re-used, then yes there is a problem. I didn't explicitly write it as a rule in the rulebook, but it was my intention that all the videos put in the collabs should be new. This rule is implicit, so it's a bit harder to defend. Also there was not any exact definition supplied in the rulebook of what is a collab, compared to a promo.
there is possibility of penalty, but I think a disqualification is hard to argue because it was not clearly stated. also we would need to check every other collab for released videos for fairness, which is difficult. I certainly don't have enough knowledge of collabs to check for combos myself.
also the videos were used in a national tournament, so you could argue it was not meant to be seen by people outside of belgium, so it can defended that it could still be re-used for an international level. -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 22:38:36QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 24 2009, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>also the videos were used in a national tournament, so you could argue it was not meant to be seen by people outside of belgium, so it can defended that it could still be re-used for an international level.
You need to be pretty naive in order to believe that no one will see a video such as Knuckles' combo because it was a Belgium-only tournament, especially when talking about a high level spinner like him.
I don't think a disqualification is possible or needed in this case, but maybe a small penalty or something, after all, like you said, it wasn't mentioned in the rules. -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 22:39:26
its not that nobody can see it, it`s that it was not MEANT to be seen by anyone outside of Belgium
-
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 22:48:32QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 23 2009, 11:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>its not that nobody can see it, it`s that it was not MEANT to be seen by anyone outside of Belgium
You can be curious too : tournament from jeb/thpsc/fpsb/etc... can be see by foreigners via youtube.
-
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 22:51:28
well the argument is weak but I guess it could be used...
like at what point is a video considered public...
1) I released it to all my friends?
2) I released on youtube, it stayed online for 1 week only
3) It's an ancient video released 2 years ago, the link doesn't even work anymore
4) I released but not uploaded on youtube, it's on some rapidshare link and I put it on a very small public forum
but a video for a national tournament is probably big enough to be considered public.
but even then, maybe there are some exceptions. like right now, the Australian community has a national tournament and they have just released "publicly" the final videos. But is it really public? Would people care if they got re-used in collab? maybe not because the tournament is meant to be viewed for australians only (no offense to australians) -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 23:02:10
Public = can be view by anyone
If it's only for all your friend is private.
About your example, if i want to see talents of australia i will search to see the video from the tournament, right ? It's the same on youtube i will type : pen spinning australia (or the name of the board) and see combos and videos.
They didn't show the tournament in others country, but we can see the tournament and spreach it.
If it'snt explicive, the absence of this rule give handicap to the others boards. Better combos can be see on all boards and we didn't take them, we did new videos, so we have an handicap against BPSC and can cost a place in the tournament for a board.
To return on a foot of egality, they should have a heavy penality
(Sorry for my english, is late ><) -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 23:02:46
5) released and uploaded on youtube for months, seen by hundred of people =)
-
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 23:07:05
fair enough but we need to hurry up and verify all the other collabs too because the results are coming soon, so I don't want to impose penalties after results are revealed.
-
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 23:16:04
But if you add penalties before or after, it change nothing about the judging. Or you tell that BPSC cheat to the others boards and ask for change their vote.
If manager are trustable, ask simply about the fact if they used old videos (public) in the collab -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 23:21:11
judging should not consider rule violations in any way, I sent a clear e-mail about this. the penalty is the only way to adjust score due to rule violations. the FPSB judgment should not lower BPSC rank simply because of this.
the reason its better to make penalty before results are out is because when the results are out, the weight of penalty will be biased by the results. since you know the results, you can make the penalty smaller or higher depending how much is necessary to lose or not lose a rank.
also, it can create confusion if some team think it is not qualified then you later tell them they are qualified, they will have much less time to prepare their team. -
Date: Mon, Nov 23 2009 23:55:47
I'm sorry but this argument is just stupid.
QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 23 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Your rules is : "make a collab", so make combos for the collab no ? Or give a definition before, because all people from all board, make a collab with new combo whereas BPSC "cheated".
Collab : combo made for it
Promo : selection of combos from anywhere
BUT you ask for a COLLAB and not a promo ! So it's justified
I would love to see the International Penspinning Doctrine where this has been outlined. Oh wait there isn't one. That's because each board creates their own sets of ideals. So where this definition can be true in FPSB it doesn't have to be the same in BPSC, UPSB, GPC etc.QUOTE (Resonance @ Nov 23 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You need to be pretty naive in order to believe that no one will see a video such as Knuckles' combo because it was a Belgium-only tournament, especially when talking about a high level spinner like him.
Well no you don't have to be naive, as far as I recall, Knuckles never said "Hey everyone check out this combo I made for my tournament." . Now you may be subscribed to Knuckles and that's perfectly fine, but you made that conscious choice to subscribe to him. Sure he could automatically assume that more people than just in Belgium would see his combo, but there was no reason for anyone else to see it. This is why Zombo's argument works because you (the viewer) has to go out and seek it.
Now Picool you are obviously out to get BPSC for some reason but lets take a look at the Official Rules for a second:QUOTE1.1.1 Collab specifications
The collab should contain:
1- 6-10 videos from 6-10 spinners (one video per spinner)
from the community.
2- Each video should have a minimum length of 10 seconds,
maximum length of 25 seconds.
3- The maximum length of the collab is 4 minutes, including
the introduction and credits.
4- The collab should be edited by someone from the same
community.
5- The collab should include an introduction and credits.
6- You cannot alter the speed of the videos (speed up or slow
down).
It is important to note that the spinners in the collab do not
necessarily have to be the same spinners that will in the team for
the main event.
Nowhere in these outlined rules is there a rule actually saying, "All combos filmed by spinners participating in the collab must be new or unreleased material". You see the funny thing about implied law is that, it's only implied. There is a great example of implied law in American history. George Washington, our first president, only sought two terms for his presidency. So after that it was implied (our key word here) that a President should only seek 2 terms. This was never challenged until Franklin Delano Roosevelt broke this implied law seeking 4 terms as President. Only after he died in office was the 22nd Amendment proposed, well it may have been proposed prior but I really don't know that so I can't say anything about it. So the 22nd Amendment set a term limit of serving no more than 2 terms as President.
So no one really has the right to accuse BPSC of cheating, when no rules were broken. Unless of course if they actually did say, edit one of their videos, but I highly doubt this is the case. Otherwise BPSC is at no fault here, it may conflict with your board's ideals but that doesn't matter this is an international ordeal. Since there is no international law besides the ones already listed then you're at kind of a dead end.
What we can do now though is maybe but some definitions with promos and collabs, but that's entirely up to high ranking rule makers and organizers of these competitions. And of course if these rules were put in place they shouldn't be retroactive. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:08:59
Hi, i'm an admin from FPSB.
Forgive me to haven't read all messages. There is what i'm thinking. These collabs were intented to make their proves. So, it's totally normal to do something new, and using olds video is not a proof of respect with other teams... think about new boards, like BRPSB, it's not very encouraging for them. That's why a disqualification would be totally fair (but i have nothing against them).
Sorry 4 bad english 00:00 am, need sleep ^^ (and need more practice too
) I didn't have the time to really arguing. 't was just important for me to speak.
Cya guys.
EDIT : after reading rules, it's true that it was not wrote in. But every one knows that it's totally disrespectful to do that. Well... -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:13:56
Alright, now I just want to know why FPSB is out to get BPSC.
-
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:15:14QUOTE (sangara @ Nov 24 2009, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Now Picool you are obviously out to get BPSC for some reason but lets take a look at the Official Rules for a second:
Lol, our 2 boards have goods relationships and i haven't problems with BPSC members on FPSB (we speak french on the 2 boards and they are active on FPSB and no problem).
Sangara a collab was ever that, i spin since 3 years the schema didn't change so don't try to put that is the FPSB doctrine or other, because i was on UCPSB and on many boards and all respect that i said about difference between collabs/promo.
So Sangara we just want a fair-play tournament (and don't care if BPSC is out or not and if FPSB will participate or not) -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:29:30QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 23 2009, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Lol, our 2 boards have goods relationships and i haven't problems with BPSC members on FPSB (we speak french on the 2 boards and they are active on FPSB and no problem).
Alright if you say so.QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 23 2009, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sangara a collab was ever that, i spin since 3 years the schema didn't change so don't try to put that is the FPSB doctrine or other, because i was on UCPSB and on many boards and all respect that i said about difference between collabs/promo.
I never said that is the way it is on FPSB, I only said that could be true on FPSB. The point I was trying to make is, there has never been an official rule book specifically outlining the difference between a collab and a promo. And if there is then I would gladly take my words back. But if this mysterious rule book does exist I would question why you didn't point it out before.QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 23 2009, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So Sangara we just want a fair-play tournament (and don't care if BPSC is out or not and if FPSB will participate or not)
The thing that makes it fair is, they never broke a rule, FPSB could have done the same thing. Any board could have reused video. If you kind of think about it, BPSC put themselves at a disadvantage for reusing, not only because it's been seen before, but Knuckles or Katix could have probably made a better video. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:35:31QUOTE (sangara @ Nov 24 2009, 01:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would question why you didn't point it out before.
Because i knew this information only yesterday.QUOTEThe thing that makes it fair is, they never broke a rule, FPSB could have done the same thing. Any board could have reused video. If you kind of think about it, BPSC put themselves at a disadvantage for reusing, not only because it's been seen before, but Knuckles or Katix could have probably made a better video.
In this case, in the rules needed a mention with "you can use old combos"
Gisele8 take the better from the 2 (he said it in the link that i gave)
And a question for you : why other boards didn't do that ?
-
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:44:32QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 23 2009, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In this case, in the rules needed a mention with "you can use old combos"
Gisele8 take the better from the 2 (he said it in the link that i gave)
And a question for you : why other boards didn't do that ?
Why should the rules say you can use old combos?
As far as why didn't other boards do it? I can't speak for any board because I am not affiliated with any board. Also I'm pretty sure that it's the organizer's decision, and unfortunately I'm not a mind reader. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:48:02
I remember something about WT'07, where every spinner was arbitrarily assigned a number for that round, which had to be clearly visible in the background so that you could not prefilm.
Or am I just making stuff up? -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 00:56:56QUOTE (hoiboy @ Nov 23 2009, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I remember something about WT'07, where every spinner was arbitrarily assigned a number for that round, which had to be clearly visible in the background so that you could not prefilm.
Or am I just making stuff up?
First, that would be the World Tournament dealing with single clips not a collab or promo, so that really has no place here. Second looking back on videos from WT07 I couldn't find evidence of these numbers. Anyway Zombo or Crash could probably chime in on this for sure. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 01:17:48QUOTE (hoiboy @ Nov 23 2009, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I remember something about WT'07, where every spinner was arbitrarily assigned a number for that round, which had to be clearly visible in the background so that you could not prefilm.
Or am I just making stuff up?
I used that idea in a upsb only battle I think, and maybe in my team tournament, can't really remember.
sangara, what you say is true and this is why we can't outright disqualify BPSC. It was however my intent that videos should be previously unreleased. It is also quite plausible to think that if BPSC didn't plan their collab at the last minute (5 days before deadline according to evidence shown by Picool), they wouldn't have to resort to such tactic so they might have been aware that this was potentially unacceptable.
I believe this situation falls in the loophole category.
The question now is it ethical to penalize someone according to a loophole? and conversely, is it ethical for BPSC to exploit a loophole, instead of requesting clarifications of the rules? -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 01:28:13QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 23 2009, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The question now is it ethical to penalize someone according to a loophole? and conversely, is it ethical for BPSC to exploit a loophole, instead of requesting clarifications of the rules?
Yes it's a loophole so really all you can do now is set up rules now so these loopholes cannot be exploited in the future, just my suggestion.
Anyway ethically, in this situation, it is not right to punish someone for exploiting this specific loophole. I feel it's more at the rule makers fault (sorry Zombo), because if this issue was really this important it should have been in the rules drafted in the first place. I think that's really all I can say, you'd probably want to get BPSC in here and tell their side, unless you've already done that. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 01:48:43
yea :/ i wrote the rules a long time ago, sent them to all boards and got it translated in multiple languages, nobody picked up on that, maybe they thought it was obvious and didn't need mentioning or didn't even cross their mind because it's a natural thing to assume.
also I don't think the definition of promo means that you have to reuse old vids. because PPP called their WC qualification collab a promo... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOUpRNBFjls I think for them a promo is just like a regular collab but that's more official... so I don't think the promo definition is the same for all. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 08:55:56
hi sorry i couldn't see topic the days before.
i organised bpsc collab like every collab. posting rules and topic url, translating, telling the deadline, collecting, editing.
i couldn't contact knuckles, and katix doesn't record videos
voltaic kr4zy ivabra littleboy and myself did a combo for the collab
of course everybody have understood that combos for this collab should be new.
BUT in the rules it's not written that using old combos is forbidden
MOREOVER i took the videos from the belgian tournament, what has never been posted and broadcasted outside of our board. Of course we used youtube. Everybody use youtube... -- there's no rule about youtube.
YEAH of course fpsb saw our videos because they speak one of the language of our board, but they their members came on our board, came on our topic, came on our youtube channel.
Fpsb, did you look if all the combos from world cup collaboration are unreleased combos ? Of course not. You just look at bpsc because it's easy for you.
investigate as you want, i didn't broke any written rule.
thanks to fpsb to build a wall between our boards
Vous n'êtes plus les bienvenus sur bpsc. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 09:57:35
What a Joke...
T_T Incredible...
You can't penalize us for something which is not forbidden (or not specified in the rules...) =)
FPSB must be really afraid about not coming into the first 8 teams to prepare such a ridiculous attack on my board...
First thing Picool wanted is to eliminate us directly even if we officialy made no mistakes...
The rules are clear and both gisele and me didn't know that we cannot put released videos into the collab (even if they were released only for the BELGIAN tournaments wich like... no more than 300 or 400 views.
In my opinion it's a really stupid way to increase chances for fpsb making the finale phase of the WC... You just find one element about wich we can possibly talk about cheat to attack us...
It's really a pity... Ok maybe... we would have try to upload new combos in this collab but it's not a really strong "mistake"... Moreover the rules are again really clear...
FPSB and BPSC were sisters board... Now it's incredible to see what is happenning right now!
To spinners from all over the world : don't penalize us with penalities or bad votes cause we are ok =)
Thanks all...
Sorry if my english is not so good as I want -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 10:45:17
The foult is on both sides.
FPSB want's equal chances to every board, and that is normal. In Tournament like this there shouldnt be place for any favour. The thing is about official champion.
Picool is right saying that in tournament like this all videos should be new. And no matter who will see video. Friends, boards, international. Everyone watching collab should see video for the first time (exept penspinner and editor
).
The whole PPP community is brought up that collab video (any!) should be fresh to the viewer. For every Promo we make new videos and it is obvious for us. Boards are not closed, every one can join ie PPP to wach their tournament. This is public.
But when there is no rule that claims this is forbidden, BPSC shouldn't be punished. And you guys from BPSC should understand that FPSB is not attacking you, they want the tournament be for everyone equal.
Personally I haven't seen BPSC videos before WC, but I could. We have a lot of people on our board, who read other boards, and post thier videos on our. Would it be non-public anymore if such video was seen by all PPP? -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 13:18:07
Hi guys,
I'm speaking to you in response to the BPSC case. We discussed about this case on FPSB, but I think the most important point is that all boards without exception should be aware of this case.
All communities should be able to choose what to do about it.
It would be more decent, because everybody, except BPSC, made the effort to promote a CV containing original videos.
FPSB should'nt be the only community to complain, in my opinion.
My feeling about that is that we should choose between 3 options:
-BPSC dismissal
-a judgement that concerns only original videos from BPSC
-a new CV from BPSC, with or without penalty points -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 13:56:03
First of all, for sangara, I have some excellent friends on BPSC =)
Now, I will try to clarify the problem.
Yes, There is nothing about old videos in the rules, so BPSC was probably allowed to use some old combos...
But it's not the problem.
The problem is that the other boards (or, at least, FPSB) understood that combos should be new. It means we made a collab with new combo, and if we were authorized to use old combos, we could have done a collab really better. It may not be BPSC's mistake, but this is a big handicap for us...
So, what can be done :
-To consider we should have know that we were authorized to use old combos ? It's stupid imo
-To tell every board to make a new collab, with or without old combo ? Impossible i think
-To give a penalty to boards which used old combos, to compensate for the handicap we (and other boards) got ? Better solution imo.
@ BPSC :
You should see it's not really a penalty, it's the only way to have boards equal. You say you did not broke any rules, it's right, but FPSB and probably a lot of others boards were handicaped because of these rules... If it could cost us our participation to the WC, I think we were obliged to notice it.QUOTEthanks to fpsb to build a wall between our boards
Vous n'êtes plus les bienvenus sur bpsc
Hope you'll understand we've done nothing to "build" such a wall, it could have been you or any other board, we are just trying not to be handicaped versus other boards...QUOTEVous n'êtes plus les bienvenus sur bpsc
I'll take it as a joke =) -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 16:46:16QUOTEThe problem is that the other boards (or, at least, FPSB) understood that combos should be new
That is what happened to SPSC: we couldn't release the collab because we understood all videos had to be new; the editor didn't receive enough combos to make a decent collab because people wasn't able to film or didn't had time. We could have used old combos but we didn't want to be unfair.
But I think it's not BPSC fault, in my opinion the only thing that can be done is to take this in consideration for the next tournament. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 17:16:39
Dudes, what's wrong with you? As far as I can calculate the position, the BPSP won't be disqualified and if penalty points will be distribued, they will not make a difference at all anyways... Like 0.25? *cough*
~Huy -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 17:30:48
For the record - my combo was reused too. I submitted the combo for the global team tournament round 2 but it was never judged. It would have been a waste since I consider it to be one of my best combos.
-
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 18:32:26
If everyone had been allowed to use some old combos, then any board could easily have picked the best possible combos. for instance, Jeb could have taken a combo from Japen 4th, another one from SPSL 6th, futureal, faint reason, etc etc etc...(hey, let's take that to a higher level: bonkura could have been in.)
Why would it have been a huge problem? because the level between the CV and the actual WC line-up would have been completely different, thus making it impossible to judge the actual level of a community. And as the CV determines which board gets picked for the tournament...
moreover, we're supposed to improve with time...new combos should be better combos...or it just means you're loosing it, or at least resting on your previous level.
So, for complete equity, and in the aim of representing the closest possible representation of a board's level, the fact that the collabs had to be made with fresh combos seemed quite obvious.
I agree with tonymontanaed on his proposition. I'd say :only judge new combos, and add a penalty if it makes the collab short of a spinner.
PS:
As a judge, I would of course ask for the same penalty to fpsb if someone's combo appeared to have been reused.
As for me, I find such complaints pretty immature. I fail to understand how can one go berserk, declare he hates fpsb (or anyone), and erase his account for the sake of spinning a pen
-
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 19:09:44QUOTE (Huy @ Nov 24 2009, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Dudes, what's wrong with you? As far as I can calculate the position, the BPSP won't be disqualified and if penalty points will be distribued, they will not make a difference at all anyways... Like 0.25? *cough*
~Huy
well reusing a combo is a major offense than anything we had so far. if it is counted as a rule violation, the penalty would be in the range of 10+ points. the penalty should be 2/6 = 33% of their points total. (would make sense actually the penalty is simply taking out 33% of their points) -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 19:21:08QUOTE (TONYMONTANAED @ Nov 24 2009, 05:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi guys,
I'm speaking to you in response to the BPSC case. We discussed about this case on FPSB, but I think the most important point is that all boards without exception should be aware of this case.
All communities should be able to choose what to do about it.
It would be more decent, because everybody, except BPSC, made the effort to promote a CV containing original videos.
Right they should be aware of it, but there's only one other thing we can do, make a rule now so we don't have this debate later.QUOTE (TONYMONTANAED @ Nov 24 2009, 05:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>FPSB should'nt be the only community to complain, in my opinion.
Then why are you?QUOTE (lindor @ Nov 24 2009, 05:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>First of all, for sangara, I have some excellent friends on BPSC =)
As do I =).QUOTE (lindor @ Nov 24 2009, 05:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So, what can be done :
-To consider we should have know that we were authorized to use old combos ? It's stupid imo
-To tell every board to make a new collab, with or without old combo ? Impossible i think
-To give a penalty to boards which used old combos, to compensate for the handicap we (and other boards) got ? Better solution imo.
I don't get why you guys don't understand that if they did not break a rule then they cannot be punished. That's not the way law, or rules work. You learn from mistakes and then fix it for the future.QUOTE (Freeman @ Nov 24 2009, 08:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>But I think it's not BPSC fault, in my opinion the only thing that can be done is to take this in consideration for the next tournament.
Is Freeman the only other rational person in here?QUOTE (taichi1082 @ Nov 24 2009, 09:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For the record - my combo was reused too. I submitted the combo for the global team tournament round 2 but it was never judged. It would have been a waste since I consider it to be one of my best combos.
Nevermind, I take that back taichi is also rational. Hey FPSB should we eliminate GPC too?QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If everyone had been allowed to use some old combos, then any board could easily have picked the best possible combos. for instance, Jeb could have taken a combo from Japen 4th, another one from SPSL 6th, futureal, faint reason, etc etc etc...(hey, let's take that to a higher level: bonkura could have been in.)
Yeah maybe JEB should have done that, but it was their choice not to.QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I agree with tonymontanaed on his proposition. I'd say :only judge new combos, and add a penalty if it makes the collab short of a spinner.
Once again, law cannot be retroactive.
-
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 19:44:34
Combo from Taichi was private so there is a little difference.
All managers received a mail from Zombo about the situation, so they will speak on this thread soon.
SPC didn't send a video because they haven't the number of people requis (they didn't take old videos, they are fair) and you forget that...
And you are on BPSC ("I do believe that I have helped pushed Zombo more to my side of things") so i understand why you defend the board so much so stop your burying one's head in the sand and accept too what we said.
Read again Thunder's message please... -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 19:51:28QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 24 2009, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>All managers received a mail from Zombo about the situation, so they will speak on this thread soon.
Ah good, the more opinions the better.QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 24 2009, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>SPC didn't send a video because they haven't the number of people requis (they didn't take old videos, they are fair) and you forget that...
Yeah, that was their choice to not reuse, but nobody stopped them from doing it other than themselves.QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 24 2009, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And you are on BPSC ("I do believe that I have helped pushed Zombo more to my side of things") so i understand why you defend the board so much so stop your burying one's head in the sand and accept too what we said.
Anyone who wishes to see that post: http://www.penspinning-be.com/tournois-toe...17-75.htm#14575 just so we're all out in the open
And it's really not about what board it is anymore, I'll admit at first I was biased to defend BPSC in the first place. But now it's a matter of what was written down, and what wasn't written down. That's what I'm here to defend, I just happen to like BPSC more than any other board. It was really a matter of chance,I would have defended any board from these accusations.
Nevermind I take that back, I probably wouldn't have defended THPSC. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 19:52:30
Well, after some thought and reading this topic I think we cannot penalize BPSC. I do think we should create a rule concerning the matter, but as for now, when no rule is written and agreed on, we can't do anything about the matter. whether BPSC done it on purpose, or because they didn't have other options, it doesn't matter.
No other board took old videos because they decided, consciously or not, not to. (except for GPC, I guess) -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 20:01:57QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 24 2009, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>SPC didn't send a video because they haven't the number of people requis (they didn't take old videos, they are fair) and you forget that...
I guess you are talking about "SPSC" and not "SPC". Though, for sure we are fair too.
~Huy -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 20:08:52
Angara, have you even read what I said, apart from two lines, anf you did so, did you make sure you fully understood it?
No, in my example, they shouldn't have, for the reason stated in my post: it would make the CV useless to judge the level of the board, and that's the whole point of the CV.
It is not a matter of being retroactive or not. In judiciary matters, there are such things as the word of the law and its spirit. Doing something that is not written as illegal doesn't mean it is ok to do it. For instance: "Do not walk on the grass" -> hey great, I can cycle on it then! That's the reasoning of a 5 y.o.
even better example: I don't know in your country, but in France it is not illegal to cheat on your wife. It doesn't mean it is fair to do it, and it certainly doesn't mean you're going to get away with it easily.
so to keep it simple, We're not adding a new rule. We're underlining the fact that there was an important logical and implicit rule, that seemingly only BPSC broke. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 20:41:33QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It is not a matter of being retroactive or not. In judiciary matters, there are such things as the word of the law and its spirit. Doing something that is not written as illegal doesn't mean it is ok to do it. For instance: "Do not walk on the grass" -> hey great, I can cycle on it then! That's the reasoning of a 5 y.o.
Actually it is a matter of being retroactive. Did BPSC submit a collab following the rules as outlined? If you don't agree than you're insane. In the rules as written, there is nothing, nothing, that had even mentioned the age of the videos. And once again nothing specified that they had to be specifically filmed for this event.
And yes I do agree that in your example that is the reasoning of a 5 year old, but how you're jumping from that situation to this situation I don't know.QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>even better example: I don't know in your country, but in France it is not illegal to cheat on your wife. It doesn't mean it is fair to do it, and it certainly doesn't mean you're going to get away with it easily.
Yeah in America it's not illegal to cheat on your wife, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. There are no legal consequences to cheating on your wife. She may leave you, divorce you, hate you, etc. but it's not like you're going to get a fine because you cheated on your wife.QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>so to keep it simple, We're not adding a new rule. We're underlining the fact that there was an important logical and implicit rule, that seemingly only BPSC broke.
You are adding a new rule that wasn't written down before, sure you and your board decided that "Hey we only want new videos", but because it was never written down as an official rule, it was only implied. And for that my friend you can refer to my first post in this thread.
-> http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showt...22143&st=60 post #75, just in case. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 21:01:57
now let's stop for a second. It appears to me that we're having a disagreement over what a rule is.
It seems that for you, rules are just what is written down.
according to your definition, yes, adjusting our judgment on BPSC would be retroactive, as it was not written down that they couldn't use old combos.
But as for my definition, rules are what is written down PLUS what it implies, according to the context. and in that context, using old videos goes against the logic of the selection, and therefore shouldn't have been made. It's as simple as that.
Do we agree on this? -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 21:14:37
The only possible thing to do... is to change rules for the next WC (or WT)...
But you can penalize us... or juge our combos (without katix and knuckles's combos) because the rules were clear when we made the collab... And it was not forbidden!
So you can battle against the rules but not against bpsc... -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 21:23:20QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>But as for my definition, rules are what is written down PLUS what it implies, according to the context. and in that context, using old videos goes against the logic of the selection, and therefore shouldn't have been made. It's as simple as that.
Do we agree on this?
You see the problem with implied rules are that they are just that, they are implied. They are based upon what you (the reader) interprets from these already written down rules. This is why they cannot be justified as a real rule for example the the rules say:QUOTEThe collabs will be watched by pen spinners all around the world.
Each community’s objective with the collab is to showcase its
local talent and prove to the world that they have enough talent to
deserve a spot in the main event. Each community needs to make a
collab which will impress people and make the audience want to
see them take part in the World Cup.
Now if I were the collab organizer I could say "Alright give me the best videos from our community so we can impress everyone.". But here's the thing, there's also a rule that states:QUOTEIt is important to note that the spinners in the collab do not
necessarily have to be the same spinners that will in the team for
the main event.
Let's make an example, let's say I'm organizing a collab for UPSB to be entered and I want to put Toast in the collab. Now I feel that he will impress people enough to get us into the World Cup, but there's a problem, Toast isn't active anymore, and he hasn't put out a video since 08'. So what do I do? I take one of his old videos. The rules allow me to do this, because I am doing two things here, I am making a collab that I feel will impress the audience enough, and it doesn't matter that Toast won't be on our World Cup team. Why? Because it is outlined that "the spinners in the collab do no necessarily have to be the same spinners that will be in the team for the main event.".
The problem with this implied logic is that it is all there. I can make an argument just as good as yours that states why I should be able to use old video, as opposed to not using old video. Do you now see what I'm trying to say?
-
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 21:49:35
I would like to summarize some of the points made during this whole debacle and make a decision. I don't think this decision can be called final for now because we have a few more days, but I think it is the best we can do for now.
Now for the facts that I think are not debatable:
1. "The definition of Collaboration means new material, promo means you can use old material". This is FALSE, there is no international convention for such terms. As a proof, PPP released what they call a promo as collab for the qualifications.
2. "It was the organizers' intent to forbid released material". This is TRUE. If we had to do this over again, such a rule would be clearly stated. If anybody asked a question about this subject prior to the deadline, they would have been answered the same way and a notice would have been sent to all communities telling them not to include released material.
3. "The rule is explicitly, or implicitly written in the rulebook". This is FALSE. Nowhere does it imply anything about released material. There are however 2 points that, situationally, can be applied to BPSC:QUOTEEach community’s objective with the collab is to showcase its
local talent and prove to the world that they have enough talent to
deserve a spot in the main event.
andQUOTE3- Who has shown they have the necessary talent to form a team
for the World Cup?
It is well known that a team requires 6 members. BPSC collab has 7 members. If the reason why Knuckles and Katix didn't film in this collab are because they don't spin anymore or don't have the talent anymore or are not available, then BPSC, in fact, doesn't have enough talent to form a team simply by the lack of members. It is my understanding that BPSC picked videos from members that are currently not spinning to meet the requirement.
It seems also that this is also the reason why SPSC didn't submit a video. If they had old members who very good but left recently and used their videos, it still doesn't mean they have the necessary talent now to form a team because of lack of members.
Of course this whole reasoning can be undermined by the fact that unreleased old videos are acceptable, but still doesn't show say anything about the current state of the community.
4. "BPSC cannot be disqualified or penalized for using a loophole." This is technically TRUE, but in practice, this rule has already been broken. Technically, we cannot even penalize anybody for breaking any rule. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say what happens when a rule is broken. Therefore deciding and applying penalties to collabs was done retroactively. In theory, people can break rules without consequences, since no consequences have even been outlined in the rulebook. It is only implied that there is some consequence for breaking them and the consequences are not stated.
----------------------------------------------
Now I have received some opinions from other communities.
I asked 3 things:
1) Whether they think BPSC should be penalized
2) Whether they implictly understood this rule and whether or not they tried to use old videos.
3) Whether or not they know any other collab that used old videos.
SPSC, although not participating, has already made clear that they understood implicitly the rule and followed it, leading to their forfeiture. They do not think BPSC should be penalized.
FPSB, of course is the strongest voice against.
We also know that GPC themselves used an old video. That video was also made public, but it was not judged in an international tournament because the tournament was canceled. Whether or not it is a greater, smaller or equal fault to BPSC is debatable.
I have received 4 emails so far, I won't reveal the communities.
One think that BPSC should not be penalized, but doesn't care if they are. They understood the rule as implicit and did not use any old videos.Another one think BPSC did not commit any fault, because it is not written in the rules. "It definitely does not deserve any penalty."
The organizer of that community misunderstood and changed his mind. Now they think that they agree it is a valid complaint from FPSB and deserve a penalty. Also, " The rules didn't say that, but it should be clear, that you should not use old combos, BECAUSE you don't have the skill / time / mood or anything else to make new combos. I didn't try to use released videos because every member of my communities knows that I absolutely dislike it to put a already released combo into a collab."
Another one simply says "no, no, no, no" to all 3 questions. Meaning, BPSC did not commit a fault, they did not think the rule was implied (but didn't use an old video themselves) and they don't know any other collab using old videos.
My last email says that they agree with thund3rcrash about 'If everyone had been allowed to use some old combos, then any board could easily have picked the best possible combos. ' They think the penalty should be similar to long combos, something like -0.5. They implicitly understood the released video rules and do not think that they used any released videos. Some of their videos were 5 months old, but never public.
----------------------------------------------
My reasoning is that the whole "it's not written in the rules" appeal to a very rigid and formal understanding of the rules. Yet, the world cup and the world tournament have always been informal, amateur, tournaments ran by pen spinners for pen spinners in the spirit of friendly competition. There have always been problems in the past with rule breaks, unclear rules, bad judging systems and judging. And solutions to those problems were always improvised or solved informally.
In my opinion, this is the main reason why we don't have significant prizes for the competition. Because it has always been informal and a battle for honor and glory. Our system was not formal enough to support big money prizes.
I understand that the WC, in 2010, and pen spinning may have become too big to continue to be informal. I have no problem with making a more formal, structured, competition with very systematic decisions. But if we do this, we will lose some of the spirit that first started those competitions and we will also have a different atmosphere.
----------------------------------------------
With the way the rules are written, we simply cannot penalize BPSC. To me, this is clear. But that would be in the context of a very formal competition. If we still want to continue keeping the loose atmosphere of the WT/WC as it was before, then I suggest the BPSC to voluntarily impose themselves a penalty if they wish. It can be anything, from points to having judging only consider the 5 valid combos (like TONY said). If BPSC feels they have wronged the spirit of the competition or think they need to do something noble, then they are welcomed to tell me what solution they offer. But other than that we have no power to do anything more.
I invite other communities to do the same, such as GPC in the case of taichi, and also FPSB, if they're willing to tolerate this unfairness for the spirit of the competition.
My other decision is that we will take the month of December to seriously revise the rules. We have learned a lesson here and I suggest people to read to the rulebook more carefully and contact me with feedbacks. I did not get many feedback from anybody when I first released the draft. Not only should you point out unclear rules, but you should also comment on how the system itself functions. We have introduced some significant new elements, like themed battles and the relative judging system. If you don't like these then please tell me NOW before it's too late. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 21:50:03QUOTE (sangara @ Nov 24 2009, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Let's make an example, let's say I'm organizing a collab for UPSB to be entered and I want to put Toast in the collab. Now I feel that he will impress people enough to get us into the World Cup, but there's a problem, Toast isn't active anymore, and he hasn't put out a video since 08'. So what do I do? I take one of his old videos. The rules allow me to do this, because I am doing two things here, I am making a collab that I feel will impress the audience enough, and it doesn't matter that Toast won't be on our World Cup team. Why? Because it is outlined that "the spinners in the collab do no necessarily have to be the same spinners that will be in the team for the main event.".
"Each community’s objective with the collab is to showcase its local talent and prove to the world that they have enough talent to deserve a spot in the main event. Each community needs to make a collab which will impress people and make the audience want to see them take part in the World Cup."
"3- Who has shown they have the necessary talent to form a team for the World Cup?"
You have to show that you are a community with good spinners NOW and not that you had some good spinners two years ago. I don't care how this is going to be solved but your example was bad. It's as if Bonkura was in one of the collabs. Senseless if you just take an old video of any spinner so that you can impress the other communities. You should show that you have the potential to participate now. Not a year ago or so.
~Huy
//e: LOL, I didn't want to "copy" your post. I started writing quite a long time ago and I'm currently watching soccer, sorry for that. ^^ -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 22:02:17QUOTE (Huy @ Nov 24 2009, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>"Each community’s objective with the collab is to showcase its local talent and prove to the world that they have enough talent to deserve a spot in the main event. Each community needs to make a collab which will impress people and make the audience want to see them take part in the World Cup."
"3- Who has shown they have the necessary talent to form a team for the World Cup?"
You have to show that you are a community with good spinners NOW and not that you had some good spinners two years ago. I don't care how this is going to be solved but your example was bad. It's as if Bonkura was in one of the collabs. Senseless if you just take an old video of any spinner so that you can impress the other communities. You should show that you have the potential to participate now. Not a year ago or so.
My example was to show that I could also make an argument that allows me to imply that I could use old video. Because the spinners in the collab don't have to be the same spinners for the team, the public and judges have no way of knowing that these spinners are actually going to participate unless they had to be disclosed prior to the video. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 22:30:01
Sangara, I see what you mean, but I don't think your argument is correct. (and I perfectly agree with Zombo, sticking to what is written is way too rigid, )
written fact: the CV's are here to impress people.
actual fact: the CV's are here for the judges to vote on which boards are going to be selected.
Those two propositions are not equivalent. if the CVs are just impressing, regardless of how they really represent the board's actual level, they aren't worth anything to make the competition work ( to allow the judges to make a decision)
BUT if each CV represents the level of a board at a T time, then the more impressive, the better.
the only way for those two facts not to be contradictory is for everyone to show the most recent samples of their board's levels. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 22:35:40
thund3rcrash, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you on what the rules SHOULD have been. its clear that the intent of the qualification round is to form a collab of your current community to prove that you are worthy to go to the world cup.
one rule was omitted and made the rules not follow exactly the intent of the competition. this difference is what we call a "loophole".
now the problem is whether or not we can penalize someone for using a loophole. ethically, I believe it is wrong for someone to exploit a loophole if you're conscious that it is a loophole, but under the law it is legal.
now the question is whether or not BPSC holds themselves to a higher standard than simply the rules and want to willingly penalize themselves for something that might have been wrong on an ethical level. -
Date: Tue, Nov 24 2009 23:44:12QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 24 2009, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>thund3rcrash, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you on what the rules SHOULD have been. its clear that the intent of the qualification round is to form a collab of your current community to prove that you are worthy to go to the world cup.
one rule was omitted and made the rules not follow exactly the intent of the competition. this difference is what we call a "loophole".
now the problem is whether or not we can penalize someone for using a loophole. ethically, I believe it is wrong for someone to exploit a loophole if you're conscious that it is a loophole, but under the law it is legal.
now the question is whether or not BPSC holds themselves to a higher standard than simply the rules and want to willingly penalize themselves for something that might have been wrong on an ethical level.
My point was not to say what the rules should have been, but how the existing rules had to be understood if we wanted them not to be self-contradictory. I've been trying to show Sangara for several posts that understanding the rules in a way that did not include recent/never used/representative combos led to a contradiction.
As you rightly say, exploiting a loophole is ethically wrong if you are aware of it. I may be wrong, but I think BPSC basically wanted to release an impressive collab, and in their last minute hurry forgot the collab was meant to represent the actual level of the board, which is quite understandable, but puts us in a delicate situation, as SPSC chose the contrary, thus forfeiting their participation. I must say that although I really appreciate a lot of people in BPSC, I've been greatly disappointed by some reactions, and I deeply regret as well as hardly understand it came to some extreme manifestations, like Gisele8 deleting his account on fpsb.
-
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 00:49:28QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My point was not to say what the rules should have been, but how the existing rules had to be understood if we wanted them not to be self-contradictory. I've been trying to show Sangara for several posts that understanding the rules in a way that did not include recent/never used/representative combos led to a contradiction.
well, I think there are too many holes to be able to use this as an argument.
Because what you're saying is that "old combos" do not represent the current level of the community which is what should impress the public, since that is what is clearly stated as collab objective in the rules. But it does not follow that all released combos are old. If someone put in a released public combo which is recent, it represents the current state of the community, but it's still wrong to put it.
The real reason we don't want released combos is because we want each community to make the complete effort necessary to create a collab for this qualification alone. It represents your determination and how seriously you are taking the tournament. By using a combo already released, you combined the effort needed for this collab and some previous event together. But there is no restriction on the age of the videos themselves. We cannot verify that all the combos in all collabs are recent, we can only check if they've been released or not.
Nevertheless, I believe that, as in previous WT/WC, the rules are built on top of a honor system. There is an amount of trust needed between the pen spinners to do things the right way. Otherwise, the rulebook would have too be very verbose and extensive to cover all cases. For instance, here are some other loopholes based on the current rulebook:
-> What is the definition of member? For some small communities, it simply means registered on the forum. But for forums with a lot of cross-members, this is a problem. If you really want to maximize your chances of winning, you will use the most general definition of member possible (any registered member) and use the best possible members. For UPSB, this means we could pretty much pick anyone internationally. But the intent of the qualification is to make a collab that represents your community, so it would be wrong to do that. One example is the case of ChauTran. He is admin of VNPSB, so it would be natural for him to go with their collab. But he wants to participate as UPSB, so we had to respect his wish because he has represented UPSB many times internationally so we consider him a loyal member of UPSB. There will more problems once the results are revealed. If UPSB qualifies, do we use members who participated in non-qualified communities?
Even worse, there is nothing in the rules that prevent a member of two communities that participate in two different teams simultaneously! But clearly everyone know this is an implied rule because it is against the integrity of competition: you cannot compete against yourself!
-> Notice also that the rules say the collab should contain 6-10 spinners from the community, but does not say that the collab should NOT contain spinners outside of the community. A loophole here would be to respect the minimum 6 spinners from the community, and then throw in an unlimited number of videos from outside the community as long as you are under 4 minutes. Clearly this is wrong, but implied. You can also defend this by saying it contradicts with the collab objective.
-> There is no definition of community. Suppose we have smaller communities with only 2-3 good spinners each. They could form a temporary community just to register in the world cup and make the qualification. This is clearly wrong because the spirit of the competition is to evaluate real communities that exist and serve a real purpose other than the competition, but it is not explicitly written.
-> Someone makes a copy combo and puts it in the collab. This is debatable, because there is some effort involved in filming such a combo. But if you consider the time taken to design the combo as part of making the combo itself, then this should be rejected.
-----------------------------------------------
That's why I think the current issue is not legal, but moral. Morality is different standard from the law and I always thought that WC/WT had a strong honor element. So that's why we can't penalize BPSC under the law, but we can appeal to them from a moral point of view.
If they feel any guilt, wrongness, shame and are conscious of their act, then we should give them the opportunity to voluntarily clear their name and conscience. But if they honestly believe they did not do anything wrong on a moral, honor, respect for the spirit of the competition, level, then it is perfectly fine for them not to do anything. It is up to each community whether or not they want to abide to higher moral standards or not. SPSC did what they felt was the moral thing to do and forfeit. But morality is relative, so we cannot judge or impose BPSC any moral standard and if they don't think they did anything wrong then they have the right to be innocent.
The same thing should be done for all other communities. For example, taichi recognizes a moral duty to voluntarily denounce his combo and that's fine. Whether or not GPC thinks they need to do something more to clear their honor is for them to decide.
FPSB also needs to do the same process. Maybe they should think whether or not it was morally correct to accuse in public BPSC (a classier alternative would have been to do it in private) and take actions to remedy that, like an apology.
As a counter-example I give Thierry Henry's situation with Ireland. France qualified because they scored a goal off a handball. Thierry admits it was a mistake and wants a rematch, but FIFA does not allow it. As a result, their qualification is tainted and they are ashamed. In this situation, France does not have an immediate opportunity to clear their honor because the organizers prevent them from doing so. In our situation, we want to give the opportunities to clear their honor if they feel any shame in how they handled this issue.
If BPSC, GPC or any other community feel like this is not the way they wanted to do things, then you can offer a voluntary solution. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 01:21:11
I would just like to add one point to the discussion:
The qualification video of BRPSB uses at least one clip (I didn't check all) which was already released before, and that one is ~L~'s clip. It's not old, but his video is from the semi final against Mirektusheaux in the national tournament, BRT09, which was judged by international spinners.
Please verify: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MuCN28nKY4
Maybe Zombo already received an e-mail answer from the BRPSB, stating similar things, I don't know.
As far as I can see and read, ~L~ organized the WC10 collab. This is an early post from June, at that time ~L~ writes:QUOTEUma coisa que não havia mencionado, teremos que estar prontos para lançar uma collab no outono (EUA), isso é lá do meio pro fim do ano, mas isso não vai ser problema. É só pegar os melhores rounds do BRT e juntar numa collab.http://brpsb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=957
Essa collab seria requerida caso haja demasiados times na competição, necessitando, assim, de uma pre-seleção.
He says that the BRPSB has to be ready to make a collab in autumn, and in bold: "this will not be a problem; we just have to catch the best rounds of the BRT and unify them in the collab". I.e. use pre-released (not necessarily old) clips. (Of course, he may have changed his mind and/or been corrected by somebody, so this of course is not a proof for anything, just a hint. It could be checked how the BRPSB/~L~ understood the rules in the end which should be in the e-mail answer to question 2) to Zombo.)
What I'm trying to say is that the BPSC is very probably not the only community which might have missed the implication of a collab consisting of entirely new clips, or has members which sent in pre-released/older clips. There might be more. Formally approaching, there is no way to penalize BSPC or GPC or others or appeal to them to self-penalize before Zombo has received an answer from all communities. Because I think there's a difference when there's 1 or like a dozen boards involved.
Basically, my point: let's wait for the answers to question 2) from the communities before taking immediate action. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 01:34:49QUOTEFPSB also needs to do the same process. Maybe they should think whether or not it was morally correct to accuse in public BPSC (a classier alternative would have been to do it in private) and take actions to remedy that, like an apology.
Zombo, I may be wrong, but for me it seems like you are the one who broadcasted the problem on fpsb: http://thefpsb.penspinning.fr/viewtopic.ph...50&start=15
before that, there had only been a friendly remark from a french spinner, on first page. you posted at page 2, flame started right after that.
I also would like to add that it could have been BPSC or any other board, it wouldn't have made the slightest difference. We don't give a damn about being qualified or not. But fpsb has in return been confronted to racist insults, and other rather unacceptable behaviors, as opposed to show to one of the organizers that there is the possibility of an inequity.
If half of the boards did use already released combos or old combos, etc, I don't even want to think about it. not until I've slept my whole. Good night everyone,please don't kill anybody, we're spinning pens, for ****'s sake. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 01:37:22QUOTE (thund3rcrash @ Nov 24 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Zombo, as far as I know, you are the one who broadcasted the problem on fpsb: http://thefpsb.penspinning.fr/viewtopic.ph...50&start=15
before that, there had only been a friendly remark from a french spinner, on first page. you posted at page 2, flame started right after that.
I also would like to add that it could have been BPSC or any other board, it wouldn't have made the slightest difference. We don't give a damn about being qualified or not. But fpsb has in return been confronted to racist insults, and other rather unacceptable behaviors, as opposed to show to one of the organizers that there is the possibility of an inequity.
I was first aware of the situation by the public post from Picool in this thread: http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?s=&am...st&p=305655
I reported on FPSB to notify FPSB members that we are currently reviewing Picool's complaint, which was public.
edit: @h4stings, very interesting observation. BRPSB has not replied to me yet, but their situation is similar to BPSC (using a combo from a local tournament) so I am interested in their opinion. It shows how unreliable implicit rules are. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 09:28:21
just for info, i know everything has been said.
what happened exactly for bpsc:
i organised the collab, can't contact knuckles. damn.
looking rules: not forbidden using old combo
huh. ok i took combo from national tournament because it was not broadcasted outisde
i added katix too for the same reason
be sure that knuckles would have done a much better combo --...
thunder : i want you to stfu about bpsc reaction and organisation
fr:
1) si tu interrogeais les membres de fpsb qui me parlent -NON pas ceux qui se pavanent dans les parties cachées- les vrais membres, du forum de base; tu saurais que j avais prévu depuis bien longtemps de clasher et quitter fpsb, cad à ma Three years (sortie début novembre.) Je ne l'ai pas fait car j'ai préféré rester calme. Mais à n importe quel déclencheur je le ferais.
Et il y a eu cet immense déclencheur... Donc juste FTG à propos de ma réaction, none of your business. demande à lindor si tu veux; tu ne me connais pas.
2) je ne te permets en aucun cas de critiquer l organisation de notre collab, tu interprètes le fait que la collab a été lancée 1 semaine avant la dead comme un retard, il n'en est rien. sache que le mode de fonctionnement de fpsb n'est pas LA référence. J'ai préparé la WC depuis qu on nous a refusé l'entrée en 08.
okay okay now let's wait but
about penalty: okay. sure. but it has to be smaller than a very clear rule : not outpassing 4minutes. logical
and if you really want to penalize our collab for reusing those combos, please watch carefully at EVERY collab and search ALL OVER YOUTUBE if some combos were not realesed before. And maybe combos released before are deleted now. haha.
so, good luck in your youtube research.
i hope you understand you can't penalize us before reviewing all combos from all collabs.
see you in some weeks? =/ -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 09:52:05QUOTE (Gisele 8 @ Nov 25 2009, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>just for info, i know everything has been said.
what happened exactly for bpsc:
i organised the collab, can't contact knuckles. damn.
looking rules: not forbidden using old combo
huh. ok i took combo from national tournament because it was not broadcasted outisde
i added katix too for the same reason
be sure that knuckles would have done a much better combo --...
thunder : i want you to stfu about bpsc reaction and organisation
fr:
1) si tu interrogeais les membres de fpsb qui me parlent -NON pas ceux qui se pavanent dans les parties cachées- les vrais membres, du forum de base; tu saurais que j avais prévu depuis bien longtemps de clasher et quitter fpsb, cad à ma Three years (sortie début novembre.) Je ne l'ai pas fait car j'ai préféré rester calme. Mais à n importe quel déclencheur je le ferais.
Et il y a eu cet immense déclencheur... Donc juste FTG à propos de ma réaction, none of your business. demande à lindor si tu veux; tu ne me connais pas.
2) je ne te permets en aucun cas de critiquer l organisation de notre collab, tu interprètes le fait que la collab a été lancée 1 semaine avant la dead comme un retard, il n'en est rien. sache que le mode de fonctionnement de fpsb n'est pas LA référence. J'ai préparé la WC depuis qu on nous a refusé l'entrée en 08.
okay okay now let's wait but
about penalty: okay. sure. but it has to be smaller than a very clear rule : not outpassing 4minutes. logical
and if you really want to penalize our collab for reusing those combos, please watch carefully at EVERY collab and search ALL OVER YOUTUBE if some combos were not realesed before. And maybe combos released before are deleted now. haha.
so, good luck in your youtube research.
i hope you understand you can't penalize us before reviewing all combos from all collabs.
see you in some weeks? =/
It's too bad that you hadn't read / you hadn't understand last posts from Zombo.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT CHEATING, THIS IS ABOUT MORALITY.
BPSC MUST CHOOSE BY ITSELF IF IT DESERVES A PENALTY OR NOT. And if you choose not to receive any, you can also choose to make the new combos the only one judged. But once again, you and nobody else can say if you deserve any of these options.
I don't think it's really smart to say: "so, good luck in your youtube research.
i hope you understand you can't penalize us before reviewing all combos from all collabs.
see you in some weeks? =/"
Do you have any respect for SPSC ? I'm sure you do, but these three lines seem to show that you don't give a s***.
Now, this is your time to speak. Please discuss with BPSC members and tell Zombo your decision, so the show could go on. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 10:09:18
no penalty.
our video is done, our judgement is done, we won't do anything more.
i respect and respected everybody and everything.
about judging, i let the others communities decide.
my suggestion : too late to change, but if you want to, don't judge katix's combo.
edit: because knuckles will be part of the team if we qualifiy and will have done a better combo if i could contact him -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 10:20:34QUOTE (Gisele 8 @ Nov 25 2009, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>about penalty: okay. sure. but it has to be smaller than a very clear rule : not outpassing 4minutes. logical
and if you really want to penalize our collab for reusing those combos, please watch carefully at EVERY collab and search ALL OVER YOUTUBE if some combos were not realesed before. And maybe combos released before are deleted now. haha.
so, good luck in your youtube research.
i hope you understand you can't penalize us before reviewing all combos from all collabs.
see you in some weeks? =/
This sounds like a very rational and fair community. NOT. Are you aware of your coward and effeminate way in which you act? Zombo alrealdy stated several times that he can't penalize you anyways. Though, he appeals to your sense of morality, which - as it seems to me - you absolutely do not have.
"i respect and respected everybody and everything.
my suggestion : too late to change, but if you want to, don't judge katix's combo."
1. It never seemed to me that you respected anyone here but that you always thought you had the only true opinion.
2. It is not about US. You should not say "if you want to, do this and this" but Zombo appeals to YOU acting!
~Huy -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 10:30:03
okay. sorry if i hurted someone...
decision is: don't judge katix combo. judge 6 others. no penalty point. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 11:05:21
I just want to speak about one last thing : morality, or the ethical point of view...
The ethical point of view is in fact different for all people, it's not an objective fact...
So, it appears to me that we can't use old and released combos in the real WC tournament (whic means the last 8 teams) even if the rules don't say anything about that.
But the qualification collaborations are in my opinion really different... I have seen in a lot of boards before the 2009 WT, some selections to choose the best spinners from the board for the tournament... To qualify they had to create a little videos with some combos to impress people... And of course they have nearly all used some released video that they specially liked because they were good to impress people
There was also no rules about it. Ok... it's not so really official as the qualifications WC are but my logical point of view is the same... Why not use released combos to show how a spinner is capable? Knuckles will make part of the belgian selection (BPSC), he show what he is capable in this combo but, believe me, he can do much and much better...
So, if Gisele can't contact him for some reasons... it appears to me that it is ethical to use a released combo from him to show what he is capable NOW because his level is increasing ...
We should of course prefer him to use a new combo (which should have much better, we know) but we can't...
BPSC is not a huge board with a lot of spinners, no we are a little board with some good spinners, in my opinion.
So we ask you to judge only the combos from the 6 future members of the WC team (Gisele, me, voltaic, ivabra, kr4zy and knuckles) and don't penalize us in our votes because we have spoken a lot about us and our "possibly cheat" in upsb.
Moreover we can't receive more than 0.5 pt penality because a board like fpsb, for example, has received 0.5 for making a mistake (video too long) which was clearly specified in the rules...
Thanks.
Edit :
I don't have to prove anything picool... I am just speaking about the ethical aspect which is different for everyone... Everything which is not in the law (in our common society) is let to the personnal interpretation of everyone...Everyone is different
Judge without katix and knuckles combo's if you want but if you are fair and if we still qualify for the WC, you will see knuckles is capable of much better... -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 11:09:27QUOTE (LittleboyBPSC @ Nov 25 2009, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>But the qualification collaborations are in my opinion really different... I have seen in a lot of boards before the 2009 WT, some selections to choose the best spinners from the board for the tournament... To qualify they had to create a little videos with some combos to impress people... And of course they have nearly all used some released video that they specially liked because they were good to impress people
Prove it like we did for your combos else it's too easy to speak on it and try to defend us.
How can we judge your level if you can participate or not if you use old combos from the gold age of BPSC (or any board) ? You can't, spinners can loose skill or improve their skill. So we cannot judge Katix AND Knuckles combo. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 11:44:46
Excuse what is the aim of this tournament? Linking different communities between them?
Aren't you all just getting mad or something like that? Take it easy guys.
It's just the 4th tournament, so it's logic that everything is not perfect in the organisation.
You can't judge anyone for something that is not illegal. Nothing was said, so don't do anything.
LOVE > HATRED -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 13:02:51QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 25 2009, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Prove it like we did for your combos else it's too easy to speak on it and try to defend us.
How can we judge your level if you can participate or not if you use old combos from the gold age of BPSC (or any board) ? You can't, spinners can loose skill or improve their skill. So we cannot judge Katix AND Knuckles combo.
Fr: Je trouve que tu vas un peu trop loin Picool. J'ai suffisamment de respect pour les membres de BPSC pour leur faire confiance et ne pas les accuser de mensonge. Tu ne fais que relancer un conflit, ce que je trouve inutile.
I think Gisele and Littleboy took the right decision. It's clearly a proof of wisdom, coming from them. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 14:12:30QUOTE (TONYMONTANAED @ Nov 25 2009, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Fr: Je trouve que tu vas un peu trop loin Picool. J'ai suffisamment de respect pour les membres de BPSC pour leur faire confiance et ne pas les accuser de mensonge. Tu ne fais que relancer un conflit, ce que je trouve inutile.
I think Gisele and Littleboy took the right decision. It's clearly a proof of wisdom, coming from them.
Fr : je ne relance pas un conflit je dis juste que nous avons du donner des preuves donc qu'il fasse de même. (pour ca que je n'ai quoté qu'un seul passage du message et qui concernait des problèmes du même ordre mais j'ai du mal interprété alors, mais le reste de mon message est quand même la)
The judging of the WC is based on the combo and not on the popularity and the past of the spinner, LittleBoy. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 14:55:17QUOTE (Picool @ Nov 25 2009, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Fr : je ne relance pas un conflit je dis juste que nous avons du donner des preuves donc qu'il fasse de même. (pour ca que je n'ai quoté qu'un seul passage du message et qui concernait des problèmes du même ordre mais j'ai du mal interprété alors, mais le reste de mon message est quand même la)
The judging of the WC is based on the combo and not on the popularity and the past of the spinner, LittleBoy.
We have found a solution to this incredible problem... so please stop talking about this... You are just putting oil on fire there...
Now the boards have to vote to qualify 8 boards (without looking to some combos (katix, ???knuckles???, the guy from bresilian board, and maybe others)...
BPSC has the right to participate so the boards don't have to take into account the fact that we have spoken a lot about our board in this topic... -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 15:52:09
Littleboy and Gisele have slightly different opinions but I will take Gisele solution as official because he is the organizer for BPSC.
-> Don't judge Katix video.
That's it, that's their decision. We must now respect it. You can disagree if you want, but I don't want any flaming on this.
Now I want to hear from:
FPSB: I think you need to do at least an apology if you think you mistreated anyone during this complaint.
GPC: I want to know what you to do about taichi's video.
BRPSB: I want to know what you want to do about ~L~'s video.
Others: please answer my email for now.
Here's another email I got:
"When I read the rules, I don't understand that only new videos should be used because it is not in the rulebook. But I think it is common sense that we should use new video or unreleased video, so I dont try to use previously released videos because it may has some possibility that it's not allowed to do.
I don't think it deserve a penalty, because it's not explicitly in the rulebook. But I think using old videos should not be allowed, so next time add it in the rulebook."
Obviously this will be added to the rulebook for next time, but also for the main tournament coming up. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 16:05:38
Apologize for said "hard" words during this complaint.
-
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 16:09:39
Gisele's solution is in fact better than mine...
I just tried to find something that everyone could accept but if his solution is accepted by everyone it is better and more fair (fairer?) the tournament and the differents boards.
Happy to see that we stop now to have an argument =) -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 16:40:27QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 25 2009, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>GPC: I want to know what you to do about taichi's video.
(I have not yet talked to steffen about this matter so I do not speak for the whole GPC in this matter)
I would also recommend to simply not judge my video. There is no other way to solve this in a fair way. It was my idea to use this combo and no other people were involved, hence the GPC should not be punished for my ...laziness?
I'm really not sure how I should see this whole thing. The combo does represent my level of skill, I am available for the GPC, I do not have a problem with my camera or anything else, I submitted the video myself (!). When I did that I didn't even think of the possibility that this could be against the rules (I was not trying to cheat but for now I can't prove it so it does not even matter). Still, the masses have decided and I will obey. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 17:04:24
By the way: What about PSH? As far as I understood, they also took an old combo from AcidDNA for their collab. I just read the following comment from PSHolii (who certainly is Olii from PSH):
QUOTEWe didn't have enough videos,so they put one of Acid DNA's old films into the collab...and Acid DNA himself didn't know that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MNdUwLKhMU
~Huy -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 17:13:50
maybe it's an old video, but where's the evidence that it is released?
i will ask ayysolo -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 17:20:05QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 25 2009, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>maybe it's an old video, but where's the evidence that it is released?
No offense, but did you actually read Olii's comment?
"We didn't have enough videos,so they put one of Acid DNA's old films into the collab...and Acid DNA himself didn't know that..."
If I need another video and I take an old video WITHOUT knowledge of that spinner, the combo probably already has been published at some time. How else should I get to that video? ...
~Huy -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 17:31:35
well the manager of PSH, who was one of the first person i contacted after the incident, told me no released video was used, so i have to talk to him again
btw: if olii is a friend of acid DNA, the video is not necessary released and simply passed to friends. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 18:05:08
His combo was used more than once...
there... and in his solo video which I'm sure everybody and their mom watched at least once. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 19:45:36QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 25 2009, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>maybe it's an old video, but where's the evidence that it is released?
i will ask ayysolo
He used it in the global team tournament. i cant quite remember who he was up against though. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 20:14:28
Why do people make a big deal about the "reused" combo? Nobody seems to actually have seen it before.. show me a youtube video with the combo..
On the other hand... A lot of people saw Acid DNA's combo more than once before, and I actually recognized it when I saw it in the collab. -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 20:27:14QUOTE (FripメECツ @ Nov 25 2009, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Why do people make a big deal about the "reused" combo? Nobody seems to actually have seen it before.. show me a youtube video with the combo..
On the other hand... A lot of people saw Acid DNA's combo more than once before, and I actually recognized it when I saw it in the collab.
what combo are you talking about? -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 21:12:27QUOTE (Zombo @ Nov 25 2009, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>what combo are you talking about?
... The combo of Acid DNA in the quali collab.
The same combo is used in the Global Team Tournament AND in his Solo vid -
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 21:41:01QUOTE (FripメECツ @ Nov 25 2009, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>... The combo of Acid DNA in the quali collab.
The same combo is used in the Global Team Tournament AND in his Solo vid
the first line, not the second line of your post
edit:
ok I think you're talking about taichi's vid?
-
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 23:36:54
i'm manager for PSH collab
PLZ ignore this post, i have talked with zombo and yes this is a reused combo. See our decision below -
Date: Thu, Nov 26 2009 00:04:07
you can do the same thing BPSC did if you want, meaning make other judges not consider Acid DNA's video.
-
Date: Thu, Nov 26 2009 00:31:23
so i just talked to zombo, and we admit that this combo was old combo and has been reused
as for penalty, please judge our collab without acid DNA's video
and we probably would like to take more penalty such as points deduction, etc
but i have to discuss with others before i provide a full solution. I promise to give a satisfactory answer by tomorrow (by satisfactory i don't mean get PSH disqualified, if that's wut you want then you won't be satisfied, lol)
I hope this can end the discussion about PSH collab, i don't want what happened between FPSB and BPSC happen on us with any board. -
Date: Thu, Nov 26 2009 07:43:13
here's 3 more emails received:
one think the complaint is reasonable and deserve penalty, assumed that the rules forbid released material, but doesnt know if they used released material or not in their collab
another think combos that are used in collabs are acceptable to reuse but not combos used for official events like tournaments, didn't really think about such rule when reading the rules but doesn't think there is any rule on it so if they wanted to reuse they could have done it but they didnt use any old video
another one say complaint is valid but shouldn't have penalty. says that "It's like a spinner that film the same combo for multiple collabs: He gets the reputation of being boring. Now that would bring his points down in the creativity criteria, although his points in difficulty and other criterion remain the same. In this case the video itself is recycled, not just the combo, but I still think that they both should be treated the same way." So they're saying that if you re-use a video, you will get a lower point in creativity. also assumed that all vids are suppsoed to be new and didn't use any old video.
for taichi situation, there is no progress, in the last email they are undecided
for ~L~, I didn't get response yet. -
Date: Thu, Nov 26 2009 14:59:27
I'll just try to clarify some things =)
I'm the one who said in FPSB BPSC reused some combo; it was at this moment mostly like a simple question, like "So, it was possible tu reuse combo ? Why did'nt we do the same ?", I did not completly remember the whole rules at this time.
I did'nt expected it to go so far...
But actually, I think what happened on UPSB was really not bad : A debate, when it stays only a debate, help always to clarify some points and to see what's wrong with rules...
I've been really shocked by BPSC reaction about it, gisele8 and Littleboy are both good friends of me, but then I understood how they felt about it : The moment we noticed it did let them think we've done it to try to qualify ourself... And then, I can understand such a reaction. I hope they now know there was nothing like that and that we don't give a damn about results, we were just asking about rules.
At the beginning of the debate, I also thought a penalty for BPSC and other boards which reused combos was the best way to solve the probleme, not as a sanction but just to have every board equal, but, and it's one of the reason why I think the debate was really good, what was written after that totally changed my mind.
I think Zombo's solution was the best and I'm happy to see it seem's everybody does agree with it.
As the reason why this happened and as an FPSB's administrator, I beg BPSC's pardon =)
But at least, there is still something annoying... The way BPSC react was quite understandable at the beginning, but the rest was not. Insulting FPSB (on UPSB, but mainly on BPSC and FPSB...) and some specific pen spinners (Picool, and recently Thundercrash) can't be accepted... I hope there will be some excuses for it. -
Date: Thu, Nov 26 2009 20:59:54
Hello, I'm late to the discussion, I'm sorry ^^
Just wanted to reply something "h4stings" saidQUOTE (h4stings @ Nov 24 2009, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The qualification video of BRPSB uses at least one clip (I didn't check all)
I assure you was just oneQUOTE (h4stings @ Nov 24 2009, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>which was already released before, and that one is ~L~'s clip. It's not old, but his video is from the semi final against Mirektusheaux in the national tournament, BRT09, which was judged by international spinners.
Please verify: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MuCN28nKY4
Yes it was reused, due to a computer and comunication problem.
I was response to edit the collab, but my pc break in the week othe WC Collab deadline and before I release it.
So my friend took a low quality preview that I made and finish the work, puting my reused combo (because I lost mine)
He didn't know that we had to use just new combos.QUOTE (h4stings @ Nov 24 2009, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As far as I can see and read, ~L~ organized the WC10 collab. This is an early post from June, at that time ~L~ writes:QUOTEUma coisa que não havia mencionado, teremos que estar prontos para lançar uma collab no outono (EUA), isso é lá do meio pro fim do ano, mas isso não vai ser problema. É só pegar os melhores rounds do BRT e juntar numa collab.
Essa collab seria requerida caso haja demasiados times na competição, necessitando, assim, de uma pre-seleção.
http://brpsb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=957
He says that the BRPSB has to be ready to make a collab in autumn, and in bold: "this will not be a problem; we just have to catch the best rounds of the BRT and unify them in the collab". I.e. use pre-released (not necessarily old) clips. (Of course, he may have changed his mind and/or been corrected by somebody, so this of course is not a proof for anything, just a hint. It could be checked how the BRPSB/~L~ understood the rules in the end which should be in the e-mail answer to question 2) to Zombo.)
Yes, I really said that, but that was before the rules about the WC been released, or at least, before I read them.
After that, I oppened a signup to pepople that wanted to join the BRPSB's WC Collab. ( http://brpsb.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=1516 )
Already send the menssage to Zombo, I think he will post here soon. -
Date: Thu, Nov 26 2009 21:14:47
well I think ~L~ wants to keep his combo in his collab if I understand his PM correctly
also for taichi, you shouldn't judge him, I got official response on this.
I will email everybody as soon as L confirms
edit: its official, i sent everybody emails. -
Date: Sat, Nov 28 2009 07:48:40
deadline for handing judging is tomorrow 11/28
PSH has decided to replace their 0.25 penalty to a 0.5 penalty because of reused Acid DNA video
this is in addition to not judging acid dna
edit:
I received judging from:
KPSA
HKPSA
PPP
PSH
VNPSB
UPSB
I haven't checked if Crash received any other.
hope to see the rest of the results soon. -
Date: Sat, Nov 28 2009 21:52:16
waiting for
GPC
THPSC