UPSB v3

Team Dump / Combo Planning Thread?

and to ask for opinions/advice

DaThroat
Date: Wed, Nov 28 2007 09:02:13

Yeah i'm thinking we should share our opinions on each combo before we enter each round. like give each other advice on what we should add anywhere in the combo to improve it or whatever.

Yep.. I've already more or less planned out my combo for the first round.

not that i can do it of course. not yet at least.

this is the breakdown:

Rev TA > Pass 12-23 > Warped Sonic 23-34 > Sonic 34-24 ~> Inverse Sonic Clip 24-T4 > Pass T4-23(Flush Sonic Style) > Moonwalk Sonic 23-24 ~> Reverse Middle Around 24-23 > Pass 23-34 > Inverse Demon's Sonic 34-12 > Neosonic 12-TF > FL Rev TA TF-12 > Pass 12-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Ext TA > Pass 12-23 > Triangle Pass T23 1.0 > Triangle Pass T34 6.0 > Ext TA T4-23 > Rev Twisted Sonic 23-34 > Demon's Sonic 34-12 > 0.5 Charge 12 > 0.5 Rev Charge 12 > Bakaround ~>
FL Rev TA > Pass 12-23 > Warped Sonic 23-34 > Sonic 34-24 ~> Pass 24-12 > Neosonic 12-TF > FL Rev TA > Bakriser x3 > *catch in T1* > Rev Triangle Pass T12 > *slowly bring pen off screen*

This is probably the longest combo i have planned so far.... what do you guys think? does it lack difficulty?

please comment/criticize/give advice.
Zombo
Date: Wed, Nov 28 2007 17:45:07

Here are some "secrets" that I gave to Eriror, they're not combos, just ideas:

Spoiler:

---Specific tricks/concepts---

1) Alternate combos: Alternating between similar looking tricks. One example is to use the same trick but with different rotations or similar looking combos. Example: Alternating Continuous (FL Rev TA to Bak, Bak 1.5) is a alternating sequence of FL Rev TA to Bak (2.0 rotations) and Bak 1.5. This gives an interesting effect but it smoothly fluctuates the rhythm of the combo because of the different number of rotations, yet the pace is the same due to the similar nature of the tricks. The cool thing is that alternative combos are usually easier than a regular combo of the hardest of the two tricks used, but more impressive.

2) Teleporter: A simple technique invented by tohlz, inspired by the Backhand tracer. Basically, you move your hand under the pen to change finger positions. The goal is to make the pen appear as if it does not move, but the hand under it does. This is like contact juggling if you know a bit about it. The technique itself is very simple, but if you do it fast, it can be very impressive because the viewer will be surprised and will only see the pen "teleport" from one location to another. So to enhance the effect, it would be possible to teleport from 34 of the right hand to the 34 of the left hand if you put your hands side-by-side during the trick.

3) Interception: This is a technique put forth by Nate, later by Phya (http://mwahaha91.rbhscsf.org/UPSBunofficial/Immortality%20Battle/Immortality%20Battle%20-%20Phya.wmv he intercepts the thumbaround with the left hand, but there's another video much more impressive which is unavailable). The goal is to intercept an aerial trick into a trick as smoothly as possible, meaning there is no proper catch of the aerial, it goes right into the rotation of whatever trick you're doing next. One of the most impressive examples of this is to make an aerial with horizontal spin, and wrap the pen around the index finger in midair for a backaround interception.

I just thought of an amazing subsequence if you can pull it off: Alternative Bak (1.5, 1.0) Fall (start with backaround 1.5) -> *Stop on top of the 34* -> Teleporter RH34-LH34 -> Teleporter LH34-LH12 (go from pinky to pinky, then pinky to index) -> (Left hand) Rev Baktap (the one that will go CW) -> *Pop the hand to thrust the pen into an aerial which should have CW horizontal rotation in it due to the previous baktap* -> Interception backaround 12 with the right-hand.

I'll try to make a rough video of it to show how it works.

4) Various tricks: these are various tricks which are not necessarily special enough to make a subsequence based on it (expect maybe the 2-finger iSonic), but can easily replace a fundamental with something more impressive. Counter-tricks, Basketball spin, Transfers, Palmarounds, Inverse Shadows, Knuckle Spin, One-finger stall (a simple stall I invented, just stall the pen on the tip of the index and the side of your hand) and the two tricks you showed me. We can also do manipulation with other body parts, but it's been done quite a lot already.

5) Thumbsnap into shirt pocket: This is a really cool ending if you have a shirt with a pocket (preferably at the right side) and a good angle to capture it.

6) External points of contact: This is a concept that has not been used much. I've seen a few videos with bounces on the wall but there are so much more ways to integrate the environment in the middle of the combo. Maybe you've seen kelvinchan kamehameha into the drawer (although that was an ending, not in the middle of a combo), his glass video or his bedsheet video. Well I think there's a few more ways to do it, just by using a simple table. You can for instance stall the pen vertically on table, swipe the bottom of the pen with the left hand, which will create a fast mid-air rotation just above the table, then quickly move the right hand below to catch the pen. Other simpler methods include pressing on the tip of the pen while it's laying on the table to make it rise in the air, at least enough so that it can perform a 180 to land directly into the hand. This could make a good intro sequence as well.

---General concepts---

7) Variations in rhythm/Nuance/"Rubato": A combo going for full speed for a very long time is not very appealling. When people are looking at videos, they look for elements that stand out, so in order to create more moments where such "showoff" elements are appropriate, you need to vary tempo and shift the speed to build intensity during the combo and keep the viewer interested. Therefore, not all the subsequences we will create must be fast, some must be midtempo. Then it will be the order which we arrange those subsequences which will achieve the desired effect. The speed can also fluctuate within a combo, but not so much to maintain smoothness.

8) Fake ending: There are many ways to end a combo. Ending is especially important because it is the last thing they see, so it stays in their mind even more. Therefore, the biggest "punch" of the combo should be at the end. One very cool way to do this (and not many people do this) is to make TWO endings. We make a first "fake" ending, which is already very impressive, and make the viewers say "Wow that was great". Then you put down the pen on the table and leave the hands off the camera. And immediately come back, pick up the pen, execute a fast and furious subsequence of a 2-3 seconds which finish with a crazy trick of multiple rotations or a really cool ending trick like snapflip to shirt pocket. This way, you create two memorable endings in a row and the user is more than impressed.

9) Variations in space: People have to remember that pen spinning is done in a 3D environment. Most people don't realize that and make their video as if it was in 2D, almost staying at the same distance relative to the screen. I have experienced with 3D geometry in the past before (I think it was in the FPSB 1rst collab). Basically what you do is move the hand towards or away the camera, but it is important to not move laterally. In other words, you must only move in the depth dimension relative to the camera, or otherwise your hand will appear to move a lot and you will appear not in control of your pen. If you move just away and back, you will have an interesting effect.

10) Multiple camera angles: This may not work if you don't have multiple webcams, but you can basically film a combo with multiple sources at the same time, to possess several angles. Then at the editing, we can shift between the different angles to give a better view of the combo. This is a commonly used technique in TV shows, where the feed is alternated between multiple cameras.

Here are some combo snippets:

Spoiler:

I wrote a few combos, there's 5 minicombos we need:

1. Opening sequence (slower)
2. Transfer (progressively faster)
3. Alternative Bakfall (fast)
4. Table Trick (progressively slower to moderate speed)
5. Real Ending (extremely fast)

5, I leave up to you.

Here's 5 possible minicombos for 1. The parts indicated in [] are filler tricks, meaning you can add any number of tricks you want, as long as it starts and ends with the required positions.

There are three hand positions possible: Palm Up, Upright, Palm Down.

#1 (All minicombos for #1 starts upright, ends palm down)

a) Basketball spin 12-23 > 2-fingered iSonic 23-(23) ~ Through-Spin 23-23 ~> Infinity 13-23 > Neobak 23-12 > Baktap 12-34.

b) Indexspin multiple > Counter IA > Counter Bak > Rev Back 12-23 > [Pass 23-34 > Pass 34-23] ~ 2-fingered iSonic 23-12 > [Shadow 12-34].

c) Counter Reverse Infinity > 1/2 Triple Infinity (to 34) > Backaround > [Charge 12 ~ Pass 12-23 > Charge 13] > TA ~ Back-of-hand Transfer 34.

d) Reverse Infinity Double ~ PD: 2-fingered iSonic 23-23 (pen is visible!) ~ Flip hand to palm up to hide the pen while approaching the camera (keep iSonic) > Through-Spin 23-23 > [Cardioid] ~ Back-of-hand Transfer 34.

e) Counter Sonic > Counter Reverse Sonic > Reverse IndexMiddleRingAround 34-23 > [Inverse Sonic Bust 23-12] > Reverse TA ~ Reverse Side Spin Multiple > [Neobak 12-34]

And now, here are 4 minicombo ideas for 2.

#2 (All minicombos for #2 starts palm-down 34)

a) Teleporter 34-LH T1 > [... some sequence on the LH that ends in 12] > RH: (Picks up another pen) Shadow 1.5 Fall 12-34 WHILE LH: Shadow 1.0 Fall THEN LH "disappears".

b) Teleporter 34-RH T1 > Reverse Infinity Transfer > LH: Infinity > [... some sequence on the LH that ends in 12] > RH: (Picks up another pen) Reverse Shadow Fall 12-34 WHILE LH: Shadow Fall THEN LH "disappears".

c) Shadow 34-LH 12 > continue with either a) or b)

d) Put LH at the back of RH with its fingers "standing up" on top of the RH > RH: Shadow Multiple ~ Pen falls between 2 fingers of the LH > etc...

[filler trick]

Part 3 (All combos start palm down 34, ends 12 in vertical mode (writing pose))

1. [IndexPinkyBak 34-12] > NeoBak 1.5/1.0 Alternating Fall = NeoBak 1.5 12-23 > NeoBak 23-34 > NeoBak 1.5 34-34 > PinkyBak 34-34 > [IndexPinkyBak 34-12]

2. [Shadow 34-12] > Bak ~ FL TA Rev > Bak 1.5 > NeoBak 1.5/1.0 Alternating Fall > [IndexPinkyBak 34-12]

Part 4 (All combos start in 12 writing pose, ends in 12 "fake ending" pose):

For this part, use serialism. The base row is: 12-tx-23-34. The full progression is: 12-tx-23-34-34-tx-23-12, which consists of the base row followed by the inverse-retrograde derivation.

Here's an example of a combo that follows this progression. There's a lot of filler tricks, so you can basically put anything as long as it fills the slot progression.

[Bak 12 ~ FL TA t1-23 > Pass 23-34 > NeoBak 34-34 > Neosonic 34-t1-23 > Inverse Sonic 23-12] > Table Trick (see video) 12-12 ~ IndexAround Multiple 12-12.

Part 5: you decide what you want to do, this is the part after the fake ending, where you pick the pen back up and pull off an intense combo.
DaThroat
Date: Thu, Nov 29 2007 02:40:30

wow Zombo. awesome ideas and suggestions. wonder what else you have in your secret stash of creativity.

here's a short summary of where i stand based on your suggestions.

---Specific tricks/concepts---

1) A little difficult, I doubt I will be able to get a smooth good alternating combo down by the first round. Anyway, I thought of one: Alternating Triangle Pass/ThumbAround Rise, or maybe Halftap/ ThumbAround.

2) This one is hard to get smoothly, which is a MUST, or it will look like wild flailing with the pen... I'll need alot of practice on this one.

3) Aerial interception will probably take me a long time to get smooth. There's only like 1 or 2 months before the first round, maybe the more experienced spinners like Eriror or Vicgotgame can get them down. I'm actually trying to learn waterfall interception. Doing a trick on one hand and the other hand comes in to intercept the pen with a few waterfall rotations.

4) What are the two tricks Eriror showed you? I can probably do only 3 of the tricks suggested there: Inverse Shadow, Palmarounds and 1 finger stall(assuming it's the stall Kam does in his Superhandz clip)

5) All I can say about this one is that it is almost impossible to get a good angle with this, unless we use the multiple camera angles.

6) This one can be used as starter I guess. Roll the pen from the table onto your hand and start spinning. To be used in the middle of the combo, it has to be smooth. Like 2), or it will have a 'lame' look.

-----General Concepts-----

7) Variation in speed and tempo, I use this in most of my recent combos. The ending is always significantly faster than the climax point of the combo, and the start is usually slow.

8) I don't really like the idea of picking up the pen after putting it down. In the combo i described in my first post in the breakdown, i had the idea of a 'fake ending' too, but not so drastic as putting a pen down. if you read the breakdown you would notice a bakriser x3. Now that makes people expect me to catch the last one with my palm and end, but i suddenly change and catch it immediately into a slow triangle pass reverse. and slowly bring the pen off screen.

9) This one is mainly for entertainment purposes. But it is something that i can work on.

10) yeah i don't have multiple webcams. but anyway, we aren't allowed to use that in a tournament right?

Now for the way in which i planned my combo:

basically, i was getting 5 stages,

1)opening
2)filler tricks after the opening
3)eye-catching trick/climax
4)post-climax filler
5)ending

1) Opening: Rev TA > Pass 12-23 > Warped Sonic 23-34 > Sonic 34-24 ~> Inverse Sonic Clip 24-T4 > Pass T4-23(Flush Sonic Style)

Simple opening, followed by a slightly complex hybrid.

2) Filler after Opening: Moonwalk Sonic 23-24 ~> Reverse Middle Around 24-23 > Pass 23-34 > Inverse Demon's Sonic 34-12 > Neosonic 12-TF > FL Rev TA TF-12 > Pass 12-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12

This is like 'spam' it's just to take up time.

3) Eye-catching trick/Climax: Ext TA > Pass 12-23 > Triangle Pass T23 1.0 > Triangle Pass T34 6.0

Like a stall see. people can see exactly what i'm doing at the point. and it will be impressive if presented properly, which i hope i can manage to do.

4) Post Climax Filler: Ext TA T4-23 > Rev Twisted Sonic 23-34 > Demon's Sonic 34-12 > 0.5 Charge 12 > 0.5 Rev Charge 12 > Bakaround ~> FL Rev TA > Pass 12-23 > Warped Sonic 23-34

More 'spam'. all this is like to show the judges or whatever that i am capable of doing charge pass variations and stuff.

5) Ending: Sonic 34-24 ~> Pass 24-12 > Neosonic 12-TF > FL Rev TA > Bakriser x3 > *catch in T1* > Rev Triangle Pass T12 > *slowly bring pen off screen*

sort of a fake ending at the end. the only thing is i'm not sure if it's wise to end with the pen still spinning.

the one problem that i see with my sequence is there is a lack of difficulty. the tricks are relatively easy, though i can say quite certainly that there is some good flow.

i'll upload a video later with a low level of smoothness to show what this combo looks like in my hands.

PS: i encourage everyone to read what Zombo typed out. very informative.
Zombo
Date: Thu, Nov 29 2007 03:25:36

check out this video and look for my combo:

this is the only video that I know of which uses 3D spinning. The ending of my combo is made much more dynamic because the hand is moving backward, it also gives the impression that the rhythm of the combo accelerates. It can be a very powerful tool, but you need the proper angle for it. Can't be top down, although if you manage to shoot an aerial straight up into the camera (but not touching it), that's very cool.

one of my most important rules when making a combo, aside from the ability to clearly seperate the combo into small chunks, or rather build up combos from minicombos (which you have already done), is that each minicombo needs to be justified.

You must ask yourself, why is this section in my combo? is it a good reason? can I remove it? can I replace it with a minicombo which will fulfill the objective BETTER?

A carefully constructed combo must be justified from top to bottom. In other word, every single trick has a meaning, has an importance (although some parts may be more important than others!).

After you build your initial combo, you must go in a "minimization" mode. You must force yourself to throw away all that you don't need until you cannot remove anymore. When that is done, you start rebuilding the combo. You will have clearly defined the objective of each part, and you can now improve what you have to better fulfill that objective.

Now I look at your combo and the first thing I see is "simple opening". It's fine to have a simple ending, but for what purpose? Usually it is to prepare before something big. In that case, do you want something which will progressively scale in difficulty towards the climax, or do you want a sharp contrast between the two?

Once you answer these questions, ask yourself how you can improve the opening to do so.

Now let's take a look at 2). Why does this section even exist if it's just to take up time? There's no time minimum. This section should be the development of your combo, and will continue where your intro left off. In other words it either continually scale in difficulty, or it stays relatively calm to offer a better constrast.

3) is fine, 4) is again spam, but really what you want is a calm passage to follow the climax and prepare the ending. You want something thats not too flashy, but that looks tricky.

then 5) make sure your fake ending works if that's what you want.

Making combo is all about nuance. You want to show fast passages, slower passages, "explosive" sections, calmer ones. Always staying at a constant level is not good, because it makes your spinning look flat, static. You need variation if you want to reach the heart of your audience.
DaThroat
Date: Thu, Nov 29 2007 03:39:24

shooting an aerial up to the camera is possible i think. place the camera higher, then set zoom, then do the aerial. it won't hit, but will give the impression that the pen suddenly moves up to fill the screen. I'm gonna give that a try soon.

i guess i could re-plan 2), but i think i will keep 4) to show a clear distinct transition between 3) and 5).

as for 5), i will try and make the last aerial high to seem as though it goes straight to the camera. then followed by a triangle pass.

I'll film later. easier for you guys to help me if you can see exactly how it looks.

EDIT - one more thing. the kamehameha can be used for doubles transition, if we think about it.
DaThroat
Date: Thu, Nov 29 2007 07:10:08

Here it is.

i was unable to get the ending down, and had no time to film until i got everything down in one clip. so i just joined a clip of 1), 2), 3) and 4) with a clip or 5) without the reverse triangle passes.

anyone knows what's the thing i do at the end called? it's like i flick my wrist to pass it on the palm. palm pass?

i know i need improvement on smoothness and the triangle passes need work.... but can i add or remove something from the combo that is not needed?
vicgotgame
Date: Thu, Nov 29 2007 07:36:03

Nice DaThroat, i like it, youve got such a bonkura like style and pen its awesome, and the pen I NEED!!! also i love the ideas and suggestions Zombo, ill have to work with some of those.
DaThroat
Date: Thu, Nov 29 2007 07:58:32

it's not a bonkura KT btw..

It's a twin art capped zig clean color with G2 EX tips and semi transparent grips.

it cost like SGD$13, much less than a KT.... i think.

and vicgotgame: you are the 'rape', as xshadowfire so aptly said.
Erirornal K.
Date: Thu, Nov 29 2007 21:22:06

QUOTE (DaThroat @ Nov 29 2007, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
anyone knows what's the thing i do at the end called? it's like i flick my wrist to pass it on the palm. palm pass?

Fingerless PalmSpin Reverse 0.5.

Well, I'll be posting the breakdown I've had in mind tomorrow. Really nice combo, DaThroat!
Zombo
Date: Fri, Nov 30 2007 04:21:43

dathroat that was a good video, but you can still put more emotions into your combo.

i think the first part can go a bit faster, and instead of progressively slowing down the t.pass, try making it slow already all of a sudden. then progressively make it faster, to match the speed of the part after.

This way your combo will appear more dramatic.

for the 3 aerials, try making signs in between aerials.

throw pen -> show "1" with your index finger -> throw pen -> show "2" with index and middle -> throw pen -> "3" etc. Try that. however, you will need to keep your hand more stable in other to see it clearly. staying on-screen will help.
DaThroat
Date: Fri, Nov 30 2007 11:23:47

coming from Zombo, that's considered a huge compliment.

i think i will do 4 aerials then... so that i can do the whole hand catch+FL palmspin Rev 0.5 instead of the reverse triangle pass ending.

ok... so i need to speed up the first part progressively. then the aerial hand signs will be like this 'thumbs up', 'peace sign', 'last 3 fingers' and 'all 4 fingers'. this means i need to practice higher continuous aerials.

as for the T.Pass, should i curl in the rest of the unused fingers, like in this clip, or have them sticking out? i can do both, but which one has more appeal?
Zombo
Date: Fri, Nov 30 2007 14:21:11

I prefer curled, but even more, have middle and index fingers touche the base of the thumb
Zombo
Date: Fri, Nov 30 2007 17:30:44

ok how about this,

4 aerials to count to 4, then finish the combo with some sort of palmspin, with all five fingers extended, thus signifying the 5.
DaThroat
Date: Sat, Dec 1 2007 01:07:29

man doing the aerials with counting is HARD!

maybe i'll just do it with my left hand? it's already quite difficult to do with the left hand, coordination and stuff.

oh yeah the fingerless palmspin is improving. i can get 1.0 consistently, and 1.5 sometimes if i try. i got this idea from Jonas XCM flourish: the wrist twist, where the packet spins on top of another packet just by wrist motion.
ChauTran
Date: Tue, Dec 4 2007 00:38:13

I'm sorry cause not active in this post....Because i'm really bad at English....I just can't read and understand it all.....Just give video.....I could understand more
DaThroat
Date: Tue, Dec 4 2007 01:40:15

haha T_N_C..

did you see the video i uploaded?

This one.

and Zombo: doing the aerials and counting with the same hand is firstly insanely difficult to get smooth, and almost unnoticeable on camera. i really think i have no choice but to use my left hand to count.

that's.... still fine?
Zombo
Date: Tue, Dec 4 2007 03:57:04

it's too early to give up, the tournament hasn't even started yet and we're not even sure if you (or any other players for that matter) is going to play the first round or be a reserve.

imo it won't look nearly as good with the left hand UNLESS you're doing an aerial with the right hand, gesturing with the right hand BUT catching with the left hand, then aerial with the left hand, gestuing with the left hand BUT catching with the right hand etc.

You just need to use less wrist movement and more air in the aerials.

and don't forget the palmspin with all 5 fingers extended to represent "5" WHILE palmspinning.
Erirornal K.
Date: Sun, Dec 9 2007 15:35:15

1)
Backaround 1.5 12-T1-23 --> MiddleBackAround 1.5 23-23 --> MiddleBackAround 23-13 >~ Inverse Twisted Sonic Reverse 13-34 --> Devil's Spin 34-24 --> Shadow 24-34 --> Devil's Shadow 34-34 --> ThumbAround 34-T1

Uncommon BackAround and Shadow variations to start with an interesting thought. Not too fast. The ThumbAround isn't like a normal push, I'll vid later.

2)
ThumbAround Reverse [IndexFlick] --> Counter RingAround Reverse 34-3-34 --> Extended ThumbAround T34-T2-23 --> Pass Reverse 23-34 --> Charge Reverse ~> Pass Normal 34-23 --> Wiper Reverse 23 --> Pass 23-34-T3 --> Wiper Reverse T3 --> Figure Eight T3

Basically a continuation of 1), but then with Arounds and Infinities. Faster than part 1, to bring up a climax. I'm trying to fold my index from the Pass Reverse 23-34 to the Figure Eight.

3)
Transfer to T2 --> Wiper Reverse T2 --> ThumbSpin 2.0/2.5 --> Fingerless ThumbSpin 1.5/2.0 --> HalfTap Reverse [IndexFlick] --> HalfTap T23-T12 --> HalfTap Reverse [IndexFlick] --> BackAround ~ Fingerless ThumbAround Reverse

Thumb variations, slower again. ThumbSpins could be thought of as a fake ending.

4)
NeoSonic 23-1 --> IndexAround 1-12 --> IndexSpin 1.5 [Tohlz Version] --> Fingerless ThumbAround --> Pass Reverse T1-12 --> Extended ThumbAround

Building up a climax, starting with a mini-combo I think I invented a while ago. Fake ending again.

5)
IndexPinkyBackAround Reverse 2.0 12-34 --> Demon's Devil's Sonic 34-12-T1 ~ PalmSpin 0.5 Release T1-P-12

The real ending. This one I feel could be improved.

Of course, I don't have any idea if any of this is useful. Is the maximum 20 seconds, by the way?
Zombo
Date: Sun, Dec 9 2007 16:24:44

: 25 seconds max
DaThroat
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2007 02:13:50

Eriror, your combo looks really hard!!!

could you make a video of just 3)? i wanna see how it looks like. i think it looks interesting, with all the flicky, halftap stuff.
Zombo
Date: Fri, Jan 25 2008 20:17:01

SHIT someone already took my idea!!
vicgotgame
Date: Sat, Feb 2 2008 03:56:23

hey guys, just an update on my combo so nobody thinks im not doing anything at all.... i have a combo written but i suck so badly at breakdowns that theres gonna be a ton of mistakes, but im workin on it and will have a rough draft video soon.
Zombo
Date: Sat, Feb 2 2008 04:50:05

you mean mistakes in the breakdown or the video? cuz it doesnt matter if you can't get an accurate breakdown
vicgotgame
Date: Sat, Feb 2 2008 20:09:02

Mistakes in the breakdown, sorry. Ill have a video soon though.