UPSB v3
Philosophy / Sonic Written as a Hybrid?
apparently, old news.
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Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 07:39:15
Hello...
This is what I believe the breakdown for a Sonic Normal is:
Charge Nor. 23 [p][0.25] ~ Charge Nor. 13 [0.5] ~ Charge Nor. 12 [0.25][c]
Merry X-Mas all,
--Ent. -
Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 08:13:00
Old news.
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Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 09:45:40
i love how the pen magically ends in 12 and then starts in 13
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Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 13:33:17
Of course you can do of every trick such a breakdown (okay maybe not Charge oO).. That's the point, that some "hybrids" have also names. Like the Sonic. And how crazy to say Charge Nor. 23 [p][s 0.25] ~ Charge Nor. 13 [s 0.5] ~ Charge Nor. 12 [s 0.25][c] instead of "Sonic" :-)
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Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 15:11:41QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 25 2009, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i love how the pen magically ends in 12 and then starts in 13
I thought finger switches could be omitted...
Charge Nor. 23 [p][s 0.25] > Finger Switch 23-13 > Charge Nor. 13 [s 0.5] > Finger Switch 13-12 > Charge Nor. 12 [s 0.25][c]
I don't know if that's correct notation, because last time I asked about finger switches I couldn't get a straight answer.
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Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 19:26:31
fingerswitches aren't tricks. so, by the same standards, i could break down a charge as a charge 0.5 12 ~ charge 0.5 12. that's all you just did.
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Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 20:39:50
you could breakdown many tricks and say that they arnt tricks. sonic is definently a trick
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Date: Fri, Dec 25 2009 23:11:49
1. Okay, LOOK, when I said it wasn't a trick, I meant it was a hybrid instead. If it's not a trick, it must be either a combo or a hybrid.
2. Sonics can't be hedgehogs. Any serious spinner knows that.
3. The pen does not start in 12 and magically end in 13 (and even if it did, it's not impossible; case in point: Moonwalk Sonic Nor.). It starts in 23 and averagely ends in 12 with an intermediate phase at 13.
4. How is this old news? Link to thread please? -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 01:46:31QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 25 2009, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>4. How is this old news? Link to thread please?
RD I think, though I'm probably not allowed to post a pic of it. I'm looking for it, Charlie posted it somewhere a long time ago.
Edit: Eburt brought this up quite a while ago.
The reason this hasn't been generally accepted is because it creates quite a few loopholes in the naming system, most notably between Inverse Sonic and Sonic:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23~Charge 13~Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23~Charge 13~Charge 12
Edit 2: I'm not even sure if this -thing- is even correct.
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Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 01:55:33QUOTE (hoiboy @ Dec 25 2009, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Inverse Sonic = Charge 23~Charge 13~Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23~Charge 13~Charge 12
CORRECTION:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23 -> Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
This returns to the thing about fingerslot switches...it would involve inverse fingerslot switches for the Inverse Sonic...or vice versa. -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 01:59:46
This may be true of the way you do sonic, but many people can't even charge 13 (their fingers can't reach), so while it is charge 23 (.25) first, then the pen hits their index finger, flies around the middle (not being held in 13) and then falls into 12, which can only be described as a sonic.
though it is good to see people using my interrupted notation
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Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 02:11:00QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 25 2009, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>CORRECTION:
Sonic = Charge 23 -> Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Why would sonic have a different notation than inverse sonic? They're essentially the same trick with different placements of the middle finger. Make more sense please. -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 02:18:25
Entity...
save yourself some trouble... A sonic is NOT = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12, Charge 23 -> Charge 13 ~ Charge 12 or any variation posted, before or after today... And that's because sonic IS a trick... > _ > . You're describing a perfect sonic clip... However the sonic refers to the "trick" which involves the act of pushing down during a conic motion which causes the pen to flip conically to the 1-2 slot... See how there is no "charge" in there?... A hybrid charge 23 to 12 would be more of a throw or gap... and a hybrid charge 23 to 13 to 12 is a sonic clip... and still arguably NOT notated that way...
What's a charge a hybrid of?... pen horizontal in slot 2-3 ~> pen vertical in slot 2-3 ~> pen horizontal in slot 2-3?... -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 02:28:15QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 25 2009, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>CORRECTION:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23 -> Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Your sonic notation is wrong. A proper sonic shouldn't be done with a full rotation in 23.
By your standards:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12 -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 02:29:08
well i mean just saying "you're wrong" isn't helpful ...
he has a point IF you're doing sonic in a strange way (basically wrong lol)
here's a (quick and sloppily made) video, first one is what he's saying, second is my typical sonic: -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 02:30:23QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 25 2009, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well i mean just saying "you're wrong" isn't helpful ...
he has a point IF you're doing sonic in a strange way (basically wrong lol)
here's a (quick and sloppily made) video, first one is what he's saying, second is my typical sonic:
I'm not seeing the difference, besides that in the first one, the charge 13 gets more emphasis
just a comment on that vid -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 02:41:20
hmm, maybe i didn't show it clearly enough ... but in the second one the pen is never held in the 13 slot ... it 'jumps' from 23 to 12
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Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 04:40:43QUOTE (hoiboy @ Dec 25 2009, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Your sonic notation is wrong. A proper sonic shouldn't be done with a full rotation in 23.
By your standards:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
I failed...
Should be:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23 -> Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12 -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 05:45:53
in fact, if there's a concept called fingerless pass, we can breakdown almost every pen spinning tricks into a hybrid of charge and pass.
like: around 12 = fingerless pass rev 12 - T1 ~ fingerless pass rev T1 - 12 lol
and yeah, sonic is a hybrid, old news. but a trick is what I think it is, and yet everyone thinks sonic is trick, so well, nevermind. -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 05:56:42QUOTE (G.D.A.R @ Dec 25 2009, 09:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>in fact, if there's a concept called fingerless pass, we can breakdown almost every pen spinning tricks into a hybrid of charge and pass.
like: around 12 = fingerless pass rev 12 - T1 ~ fingerless pass rev T1 - 12 lol
and yeah, sonic is a hybrid, old news. but a trick is what I think it is, and yet everyone thinks sonic is trick, so well, nevermind.
Breakdown for Shadow Spins with Charges and Fingerless Passes please?
And seriously, does nobody have the link to the thread in which Sonic being a hybrid was less old news and more new news? -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 06:42:58QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 26 2009, 12:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Breakdown for Shadow Spins with Charges and Fingerless Passes please?
And seriously, does nobody have the link to the thread in which Sonic being a hybrid was less old news and more new news?
dude you'd have to look back before the current UPSB, before UCPSB, and back to fucking pentix to see the original discussion (well over 5 or 6 years ago). -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 06:59:39QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 25 2009, 08:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I failed...
Should be:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23 -> Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
then thats not just an inverse sonic
a proper inverse sonic does not start in the same position as a sonic -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 07:31:55QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 26 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Breakdown for Shadow Spins with Charges and Fingerless Passes please?
And seriously, does nobody have the link to the thread in which Sonic being a hybrid was less old news and more new news?
1/note my 'almost' in the post
2/I don't remember where I found it, sorry -
Date: Sat, Dec 26 2009 16:55:09QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 26 2009, 05:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I failed...
Should be:
Inverse Sonic = Charge 23 -> Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
Sonic = Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12
No, Inverse Sonic doesn't start with a complete Charge rotation. It has only 1 rotation. -
Date: Sun, Dec 27 2009 05:23:34QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 25 2009, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>hmm, maybe i didn't show it clearly enough ... but in the second one the pen is never held in the 13 slot ... it 'jumps' from 23 to 12
the only difference i see is that in the second ones, you use your thumb flap...QUOTEbut in the second one the pen is never held in the 13 slot ... it 'jumps' from 23 to 12
well then you're not doing a sonic correctly--you'd be doing like a palm up shadow reverse release 23-12 or something if the pen is never in 13
as far as i can tell, the pen still goes into 13, but just for not as long
and personally, i'd have to agree that sonic is a hybrid, but charge itself is a trick...you cant really break down charge b/c no matter what, you're spinning the pen in a circular motion through your fingers
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Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 07:57:40QUOTE (blahblahting @ Dec 26 2009, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>and personally, i'd have to agree that sonic is a hybrid, but charge itself is a trick...you cant really break down charge b/c no matter what, you're spinning the pen in a circular motion through your fingers
Correction: you're spinning the pen in a conic motion through your fingers >_>_>
Okay, for the rest of you who brought Inverse Sonic into this messy argument...
My breakdowns are 100% accurate with respect to Dr. Eso. I've watched his Sonic and Inverse Sonic videos.
Sonic Nor. 23-12 EQUALS Charge Nor. 23 [p][0.25] ~ Charge Nor. 13 [0.5] ~ Charge Nor. 12 [0.25][c].
Inverse Sonic Nor. 23-12 EQUALS Charge Nor. 23 [p] ~ Charge Nor 13. [0.5] ~ Charge Nor. 12 [0.5][c].
If you do a Sonic correctly, YOU WILL CHARGE 13 AT SOME POINT. The ONLY feasible exception is a Bonkura-style iSonic, and we all know that's not the case here.
And since we've gotten into this mess of Charge hybrids and things:
Sonic Rev. = Charge Rev. 12 [p][0.25] ~ Charge Rev. 13 [0.5] ~ Charge Rev. 23 [0.25][c]
Inverse Sonic Rev. = Charge Rev. 12 [p][0.5] ~ Charge Rev 13 [0.5] ~ Charge Rev. 23 [c]
Moonwalk Sonic Nor. = Charge Nor. 12 [p][0.75] ~ Charge Nor. 13 [0.5] ~ Charge Nor. 23 [0.75]
Moonwalk Sonic Rev. = Charge Rev. 23 [p][0.75] ~ Charge Rev. 13 [0.5] ~ Charge Rev. 12 [0.75][c]
I've watched dozens upon dozens of Sonic-type trick videos, presentations and combinations, and I can safely conclude that my hybrid is NOT a perfect Sonic Clip 1.0, but a true Sonic.
And on top of that, we can conclude that informal trick notation has its limits, because they would lead to the Sonic and Inverse Sonic appearing the same. THAT is why I added the full Charge Nor. 23 at the beginning of the Inverse Sonic, because otherwise the only role it would play is the push of the fingers. And NOBODY wants that.
Ent. -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 08:24:00QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 27 2009, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And on top of that, we can conclude that informal trick notation has its limits, because they would lead to the Sonic and Inverse Sonic appearing the same. THAT is why I added the full Charge Nor. 23 at the beginning of the Inverse Sonic, because otherwise the only role it would play is the push of the fingers. And NOBODY wants that.
Ent.
...do you even know what you're saying anymore? -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 08:59:18QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 28 2009, 02:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My breakdowns are 100% accurate with respect to Dr. Eso. I've watched his Sonic and Inverse Sonic videos.
Sonic Nor. 23-12 EQUALS Charge Nor. 23 [p][0.25] ~ Charge Nor. 13 [0.5] ~ Charge Nor. 12 [0.25][c].
Inverse Sonic Nor. 23-12 EQUALS Charge Nor. 23 [p] ~ Charge Nor 13. [0.5] ~ Charge Nor. 12 [0.5][c].
Actually, I said in my video that an Inverse Sonic 23-12 DOES NOT begin with a Charge 23. I added the Charge to help with the actual beginning since the beginning position of the pen is opposite of Sonic Normal. If you take your opposite hand and do the beginning position of the Sonic Normal and then superimpose that onto your dominant hand (T for T', etc) then you will see it clearly. -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 19:02:40
Inverse Sonic starts in 23, is held in 13 for some brief time and ends in 12. A partial Charge MUST be executed at some point to bring the pen from 23 to 13. In my breakdown it was only a push, but if the pen really is supposed to be held in the antipode of the Sonic start position, the Charge must be at least 0.25 revolutions!
And yes, I know what I'm saying. The pen does more of a Charge 23 if in the starting position you gave then it would if in the Sonic start position.
ENT. -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 19:11:26
Haha Entity, you've never responded to what I'm saying.
When it comes down to it, yes, you can do it as a hybrid IF you do a distinct charge 13. But most people don't do that. I don't charge 13 AT ALL during a sonic. And my buddy (Gizzardsmack) CAN'T even charge 13, his fingers are very inflexible, but he still does sonic like a pro.
The pen TYPICALLY hits 1 and jumps into the next slot. At least that's how it's supposed to happen. How you do it is up to you I guess -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 19:33:35QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Haha Entity, you've never responded to what I'm saying.
That's because I can't respond to a statement. I have the patience to search old forums for what I need. Or to Google it.QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>When it comes down to it, yes, you can do it as a hybrid IF you do a distinct charge 13. But most people don't do that. I don't charge 13 AT ALL during a sonic.
No. You aren't getting my point. Do a Sonic with your palm facing you with a camera watching the back of your hand. Save it, open it and slow-mo it. You will see the Charge 13. The Charge doesn't have to be distinct--it isn't for me--but it is UNFEASIBLE to do Sonic without it.QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The pen TYPICALLY hits 1 and jumps into the next slot. At least that's how it's supposed to happen. How you do it is up to you I guess
If you look closely at your hand when it "jumps," you will see that it is actually doing a Charge 13--but because of the duration (0.5 rotations) and the position of the fingers, the partial Charge 13 is in fact being executed behind the middle finger.
And if this STILL isn't obvious enough, practice palm-down Sonics and you'll probably begin to see what I mean. -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 19:47:31QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 28 2009, 11:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>No. You aren't getting my point. Do a Sonic with your palm facing you with a camera watching the back of your hand. Save it, open it and slow-mo it. You will see the Charge 13. The Charge doesn't have to be distinct--it isn't for me--but it is UNFEASIBLE to do Sonic without it.
Unfeasible? I disagree. If I may direct you all to exhibit A..:
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Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 19:56:09QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 28 2009, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>-but it is UNFEASIBLE to do Sonic without it.
This is where your argument is wrong. I could do a Sonic without an index finger (I clearly couldn't catch it lol). But the motion and the release COMES FROM the motion in 23. I assume you've been around long enough/are good enough to do Shadow? For that trick you get the same motion, the same release, and the same spin (just for longer), WITHOUT the pen hitting the index finger. There has also been discussion that a Sonic is just a Shadow 1.0, or that a Shadow is just a Sonic 1.5, which I believe are much more legitimate claims than yours.
And to try to exemplify what I'm saying a little better, I made a video of what I'm talking about (only for Inverse Sonic, so it's clearer.) In this video, and PLEASE try to see what I'm saying, ALL of the motion comes from 23, I NEVER touch the pen with 1 finger, until I catch it. I even pull my 1 finger away to start with to try to show this point more clearly. At NO POINT is 1 and 3 touching the pen at the same time. And this is equally true of my Sonics.
Especially look at second 20. The pen leaves 23, is ONLY touching the inside of finger 2, then is caught in 12.
Your argument comes down to "You can't do Sonic without Charge 13" which is simply not true Anyway, I see in your profile that you're a physicist like myself, so I REALLY hope you can keep a clear head about this, and not just argue your point simply so you don't look wrong
PS, I'm not really sure what point Awon is trying to make with that picture lol xD -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 19:58:23
It's actually a video if you click on it ._.
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Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 20:00:06
well since you mentioned me...
it's true: i can't charge 13 with 2 tucked down- my middle joint just won't go, even as hard as i try.
here's my perspective: suppose you're trying a shadow 1.5 23-12. the spin takes place mostly on top of 2 and 3 for me, and then just drops into the slot of 12 at the end. the spin makes it obvious that after the release, it just finishes the trick in 12.
so for sonic: i would say that there's a release, and then it drops into 12 without ever going through a charge. i just don't ever grab it to push it with 13. i concede that for a moment both may be touching, but it doesn't provide any of the spin. you can do a sonic perfectly (until the end) if you just lift 1 out of the way and let the pen fall into the slot and onto the ground.
so whether or not it's a trick, i think that there isn't any 13 charge in it. which would mean that maybe there's some weird fingerless pass or whatever was mentioned above, but not a charge 13 -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 20:08:12
I'm very tired and have a lot of work to do, so I'll make this quick for all of us.
QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is where your argument is wrong. I could do a Sonic without an index finger (I clearly couldn't catch it lol). But the motion and the release COMES FROM the motion in 23.
Then it's a shadow 1.0 23-12.QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I assume you've been around long enough/are good enough to do Shadow? For that trick you get the same motion, the same release, and the same spin (just for longer), WITHOUT the pen hitting the index finger.
Yes, for Shadow Stills. But those are basically non-aerial Charge Releases.QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There has also been discussion that a Sonic is just a Shadow 1.0, or that a Shadow is just a Sonic 1.5, which I believe are much more legitimate claims than yours.
Oh? How are they more legitimate? Or are you simply biased?QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And to try to exemplify what I'm saying a little better, I made a video of what I'm talking about (only for Inverse Sonic, so it's clearer.) In this video, and PLEASE try to see what I'm saying, ALL of the motion comes from 23, I NEVER touch the pen with 1 finger, until I catch it. I even pull my 1 finger away to start with to try to show this point more clearly. At NO POINT is 1 and 3 touching the pen at the same time. And this is equally true of my Sonics.
Spoiler:
Especially look at second 20. The pen leaves 23, is ONLY touching the inside of finger 2, then is caught in 12.
I screenshot'd the YT video at second 20 during the "jump" in which you claim the pen never touches 1 and 3 at the same time. Observe THIS.
I see what you're saying, but if you truly can do a "Sonic" or "Inverse Sonic" without a Charge 13, it is technically an aerial trick (Sonic Release 1.0, perhaps).QUOTE (strat1227 @ Dec 28 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>PS, I'm not really sure what point Awon is trying to make with that picture lol xD
He's trying to show me a Sonic that does not need a Charge 13. To support his case, he showed me a picture of a Sonic with an even greater dependency on that Charge 13. Yes, Tipped Charge IS STILL A FREAKING CHARGE. -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 20:13:04QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 28 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>He's trying to show me a Sonic that does not need a Charge 13. To support his case, he showed me a picture of a Sonic with an even greater dependency on that Charge 13.
Does anyone understand the concept of clicking links?
In the video I've shown is a sonic without the use of a proper charge in the any of the finger slots.
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Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 20:14:59
This is what I worried, you're finding reasons to be right instead of looking at the obvious truths.
There's no such thing as a Shadow 1.0, ask the Research Department/Naming Committee. What I described and you called a Shadow 1.0 IS a Sonic, and what you're describing IS a hybrid, but they're not the same thing.
Is a Shadow an aerial? Of course not. Just because it's only touching one finger doesn't make it a "release." A Sonic, or Inverse Sonic, should NOT be held in 13, ever. Of course you can, in which case what you're saying is true, but at that point it's not a Sonic.
In the screenshot you linked to, the pen is clearly not touching both fingers, just superimposed due to the limitations of 2 dimensions (which I'm sure you're aware of, but just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point).
In any case, I guess this is my last post in this thread, we've come to an impasse. What you describe is NOT a Sonic, as simple as that -
Date: Mon, Dec 28 2009 23:13:53QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 28 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes, for Shadow Stills. But those are basically non-aerial Charge Releases.
1. It would be a riser, not a release.
2. Non aerial release?
QUOTEI screenshot'd the YT video at second 20 during the "jump" in which you claim the pen never touches 1 and 3 at the same time. Observe
I see what you're saying, but if you truly can do a "Sonic" or "Inverse Sonic" without a Charge 13, it is technically an aerial trick (Sonic Release 1.0, perhaps).
actually, if you look closely, its never touching 1 and 3 at the same time. neither does it have a point where it isn't touching any finger.
therefore, it is not an aerial, nor a hybrid.QUOTETipped Charge IS STILL A FREAKING CHARGE.
I would just like to point out that by your standards, a pass would be a hybrid of tipped charges. Also, an around would be a hybrid of passes, and so on.
Naming is not a perfect method, it is a pragmatic method of expressing tricks/combos. -
Date: Tue, Dec 29 2009 01:53:27QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 28 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes, Tipped Charge IS STILL A FREAKING CHARGE.
They're completely different. One has a conic spin, one doesn't. Why do you think they have different names? This being said, your notation is incorrect. -
Date: Tue, Dec 29 2009 21:02:20
According to you, Hybrids are not tricks, so therefore Devil's Sonic, Demon's Sonic, Angel's Sonic, Devil's Shadow, et cetera, are not tricks.
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Date: Tue, Dec 29 2009 21:07:25QUOTE (Nation @ Dec 29 2009, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>According to you, Hybrids are not tricks, so therefore Devil's Sonic, Demon's Sonic, Angel's Sonic, Devil's Shadow, et cetera, are not tricks.
he's saying sonic is a hybrid and not a trick -
Date: Wed, Dec 30 2009 05:30:36QUOTE (AwonW @ Dec 28 2009, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>They're completely different. One has a conic spin, one doesn't. Why do you think they have different names? This being said, your notation is incorrect.
If a Tipped Charge is not a [censored]ing Charge, then the Tipped Sonic in your video is NOT A [censored]ING SONIC.
That is all.
Chao. -
Date: Wed, Dec 30 2009 06:00:11QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 29 2009, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If a Tipped Charge is not a [censored]ing Charge, then the Tipped Sonic in your video is NOT A [censored]ING SONIC.
That is all.
Chao.
It's not a tipped sonic. Also, you're using your definition of a sonic to dismiss my sonic when you haven't even proven that your notation is correct. You can't use an unproven/unaccepted definition to prove or disprove anything, sorry. -
Date: Wed, Dec 30 2009 06:20:53QUOTE (AwonW @ Dec 29 2009, 10:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's not a tipped sonic.QUOTETipped Sonic moves along the hand in the same manner as all of the previous Sonic variations, but the conical spin is changed to a flat, see-saw motion.
Check it, mate.QUOTE ( @ Dec 29 2009, 10:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Also, you're using your definition of a sonic to dismiss my sonic when you haven't even proven that your notation is correct. You can't use an unproven/unaccepted definition to prove or disprove anything, sorry.
I'm not using MY definition of a sonic to dismiss your sonic. I'm using YOUR definition of tipped tricks being different from ordinary tricks:QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 28 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes, Tipped Charge IS STILL A FREAKING CHARGE.QUOTE (AwonW @ Dec 28 2009, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>They're completely different. One has a conic spin, one doesn't. Why do you think they have different names? This being said, your notation is incorrect.
I rest my case. -
Date: Wed, Dec 30 2009 06:31:58
There's a portion of a charge at the beginning while it's in the 23 slot making it not a tipped sonic. It's a cross between a charge and a tipped sonic which happens to be what a sonic is.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30 2009 14:54:00
Lol you guys are arguing the wrong point. Everything he's saying is true, except the part that what he's describing isn't a sonic.
What he's describing IS technically a hybrid. One that people commonly just shorthand as a Sonic for ease. However, a TRUE sonic is not what he's describing. It's the thing he calls a "Non-aerial Sonic/Shadow Release 1.0" for whatever reason. THAT's what a true Sonic is.
So to try to convince him that what he's describing isn't a hybrid is futile, because it is. However, it's not a Sonic -
Date: Wed, Dec 30 2009 19:56:22QUOTE (Entity @ Dec 26 2009, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>4. How is this old news? Link to thread please?
I think Sketching was the first to notate a Sonic as a Charge hybrid.
Also, Sonic 23-12, Sonic 12-23, Inverse Sonic... all have only 1 rotation. As was said, more rotations are only to help and gain momentum, but these tricks can be done with 1.0 rotations. I'll release a vid showing that if you want.
@AwonW, yes, a Tipped Sonic 23-12 is possible (and a lot of variations of it). -
Date: Fri, Jan 1 2010 23:42:44
The opening pushes for Charge and Sonic are not equivalent. Neither are the catches for Charge and Sonic. Sonic 23-12 is not Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12.
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Date: Sun, Jan 3 2010 04:37:33QUOTE (thig @ Jan 1 2010, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sonic 23-12 is not Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12.
The wiki states the first quarter revolution is a partial Charge Normal:QUOTEThe middle and ring fingers perform a clockwise Charge Normal motion to get the pen moving. At about 1/4 rotation, the pen should bounce off of the index finger.
The wiki states that the pen is help in 13 from 1/4 to 3/4 of the motion (basic math shows this is 1/2 a revolution):QUOTEThe middle finger is bent in and out of the way as the index and ring fingers are brought closer together to hold the pen as it continues to rotate. The pen stays between the index and ring fingers from about 1/4 to 3/4 rotation. At about 3/4 rotation, the middle finger is straightened in prepareation for the catch.
The catches can be seen to be equivalent with a little imagination (Pen caught in 12 for last 1/4 revolution, consistent conic spin motion throughout, lands in writing position).
I don't know what you guys think you're thinking, but a Sonic 23-12 is a Charge 12 [p][0.25] ~ Charge 13[0.5] ~ Charge 23[0.25][c].
The only feasibly debatable point is the catch, or else the Sonic page in the wiki needs editing. -
Date: Sun, Jan 3 2010 05:52:48
Sonic has a three-fingered push. Charge has a two-fingered push. Their pushes are not the same. The same is true for their catches.
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Date: Sun, Jan 3 2010 09:30:33QUOTE (thig @ Jan 2 2010, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sonic has a three-fingered push. Charge has a two-fingered push. Their pushes are not the same. The same is true for their catches.
1. ThumbFlap Sonics are not true Sonics. TF Sonics cannot be used in combos aside from starting them.
2. There's no other way I can conceive of for a three-fingered push for ANY trick.
3. Reread my first Wiki quote. -
Date: Sun, Jan 3 2010 15:24:45
A push is all the required movements of the finger(s) and/or hand(s) to start a trick. For Sonic 23-12, the push includes the ring and index fingers bending towards each other and the middle finger bending towards the palm. It has a total of three fingers. Sonic has a three-fingered push. For Charge 23, the push includes the ring finger moving away from the palm and the middle finger moving towards the palm. It has a total of two fingers. Charge has a two-fingered push. Three fingers is not two fingers. Sonic and Charge do not have the same push.
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Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 00:45:44QUOTE (thig @ Jan 3 2010, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>A push is all the required movements of the finger(s) and/or hand(s) to start a trick.
How many revolutions does it take to "start a trick?" Any more than 1/4 revolution and your point is void, because the 1st partial Charge in my "breakdown" lasts for only 1/4 revolution.QUOTE (thig @ Jan 3 2010, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For Sonic 23-12, the push includes the ring and index fingers bending towards each other and the middle finger bending towards the palm. It has a total of three fingers. Sonic has a three-fingered push.
The wiki says nothing about bending the ring and index fingers towards each other in the first 1/4 revolution:QUOTEThe middle and ring fingers perform a clockwise Charge Normal motion to get the pen moving. At about 1/4 rotation, the pen should bounce off of the index finger.
The only fingers holding the pen from 0 to 1/4 of a revolution are 2 and 3. Sonic has a two-fingered push.QUOTE (thig @ Jan 3 2010, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For Charge 23, the push includes the ring finger moving away from the palm and the middle finger moving towards the palm. It has a total of two fingers. Charge has a two-fingered push.
And for the same 1/4 revolution start, Sonic also requires a Charge Normal motion.
Seriously, Sonic is a hybrid of Charges. It seems people here either 1) believes the Sonic is a Charge hybrid for a long time or 2) refuse to submit to the logic. -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 00:49:02QUOTE (Entity @ Jan 3 2010, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Seriously, Sonic is a hybrid of Charges. It seems people here either 1) believes the Sonic is a Charge hybrid for a long time or 2) refuse to submit to the logic.
your logic is flawed
not to mention if the pen bounces off the index finger, it isn't really in 13, proving your sonic-charge hybrid thingamabobber wrong -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 01:21:07QUOTE (hoiboy @ Jan 3 2010, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>your logic is flawed
not to mention if the pen bounces off the index finger, it isn't really in 13, proving your sonic-charge hybrid thingamabobber wrong
I'm a little bit disappointed at how people claim my logic to be incorrect without explanation. It's not that hard to write a couple more sentences in a post.
And the pen "bounces" off the index finger during the start of the trick (1/4 revolution). It is then held in 13. /wiki re-quote:QUOTEThe middle finger is bent in and out of the way as the index and ring fingers are brought closer together to hold the pen as it continues to rotate. The pen stays between the index and ring fingers from about 1/4 to 3/4 rotation. At about 3/4 rotation, the middle finger is straightened in prepareation for the catch.
Edit: changed thread title to be less pretentious and added poll. -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 01:38:12
I already explained how your logic is flawed but I will reiterate my view of this topic...
The sonic is the name for the motion the pen takes from the 2-3 slot to the 1-2 slot, you can write all you want with charges but nothing adequately describes the motion...
It isn't simply a hybrid of charges, you can do charges before and after the trick, even "inbetween" if you will.
Not to mention the sonics conic motion differs by the charges as well, they are both conic, but the sonic relies on the downward push of the first figner to conicly transfer the pen from one slot to the other. it really has nothing to do with a charge as when you do a charge 1-3 you may notice it inst that same tap motion, but rather a complete action of charge which involves the other finger as well... Just my opinion.
Edit: Further more, the sonic is merely caught in the 1-2 slot, and doesn't involve any sort of charge like motion which is completed during the 1-3 phase, and the catch merely consists of the momentum of the pen falling back down... -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 01:44:41
the only pretentious thing in the thread title is "---Entity" even though it's very clear who made the topic, seeing as it's the first person to post. that's just arrogant as hell.
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Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 01:53:12
A push is all the required movements of the finger(s) and/or hand(s) to start a trick. For Sonic the push is 1 rotation. The ring, middle, and index fingers push the pen through the whole period. The middle finger bends towards the palm as the index finger bends towards the ring finger. The index finger moves during Sonic 23-12 id est makes up part of the Sonic push. Sonic has a three-fingered push.
Another problem with the hybrid Charge idea is that Charge does not change finger position. For example, Charge 23-12 is impossible by definition. A finger-switch is possible but Charge 23-12 is not. -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 01:58:19QUOTE (Entity @ Jan 3 2010, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>How many revolutions does it take to "start a trick?" Any more than 1/4 revolution and your point is void, because the 1st partial Charge in my "breakdown" lasts for only 1/4 revolution.
The wiki says nothing about bending the ring and index fingers towards each other in the first 1/4 revolution:
The only fingers holding the pen from 0 to 1/4 of a revolution are 2 and 3. Sonic has a two-fingered push.
And for the same 1/4 revolution start, Sonic also requires a Charge Normal motion.
Seriously, Sonic is a hybrid of Charges. It seems people here either 1) believes the Sonic is a Charge hybrid for a long time or 2) refuse to submit to the logic.
it doesn't matter how many revs. it only matters if there is any push at all.
sure it's not mentioned but it's reality. do sonic and tell me that your ring and index fingers don't bend in.
sure it starts with two fingers. but the point is that all three will eventually touch the pen.
is replacing a finger position a charge motion? charge uses 2 fingers, sonic needs 3. thats all there is to it.
definition of hybrid: A hybrid is a pen spinning combination (combo) involving one or more partial tricks. with your breakdown, charge 23 ~ charge 13 ~ charge 12, what is the name of the trick where the ~ are? it doesn't make sense that the pen ends up in different slots does it? there has to be some trick there. but there isn't. because sonic is sonic and charge is charge. all you did breakdown was the appearance.
a good example of a hybrid is twisted sonic, charge 1/4 23 ~ pass 23-12. it makes sense because there's something that can connect in between 23-12, pass 23-12. what you have been saying is that the pen magically ends up from 23 to 13 to 12. there's no trick in between those. thats why sonic is sonic. -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 02:17:27QUOTE (Entity @ Jan 3 2010, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Seriously, Sonic is a hybrid of Charges. It seems people here either 1) believes the Sonic is a Charge hybrid for a long time or 2) refuse to submit to the logic.
Has it crossed your brilliant mind that this thread is fail and you're wrong?
Or maybe you just can't read all the evidence before you...
and what are you doing citing the wiki as a source? I could change the wiki to say you have to pull down your pants string a wire through your butt and pretend your a duck in order to do a sonic
... it has nothing to do with how people explain the trick you actually have to look at the mechanics of the trick...
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Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 03:33:09
I has been lolcat'd...
QUOTEsure it's not mentioned but it's reality. do sonic and tell me that your ring and index fingers don't bend in.
Not talking about the ENTIRE trick...Although strat1227 can do sonic without bending his ring and index fingers in.QUOTEThe wiki says nothing about bending the ring and index fingers towards each other in the first 1/4 revolution
That "first 1/4 revolution" I said was important, you know.QUOTEA push is all the required movements of the finger(s) and/or hand(s) to start a trick. For Sonic the push is 1 rotation. The ring, middle, and index fingers push the pen through the whole period. The middle finger bends towards the palm as the index finger bends towards the ring finger. The index finger moves during Sonic 23-12 id est makes up part of the Sonic push. Sonic has a three-fingered push.
That's like saying Sonic is different from Charge...Try to stick to one thing when you're trying to disprove it.
And if the Sonic push is 1.0 rotation, then what is its catch? 0.0? That doesn't make sense, does it?QUOTEAnother problem with the hybrid Charge idea is that Charge does not change finger position. For example, Charge 23-12 is impossible by definition. A finger-switch is possible but Charge 23-12 is not.
So Sonic Clip 34-23 ~ Twisted Sonic 24-12 is not possible because the 24 position is not present in the first trick yet appears in the second?QUOTEI could change the wiki to say you have to pull down your pants string a wire through your butt and pretend your a duck in order to do a sonic
I thought the wiki had to be edited by the researchers and things...But if you so desired, I could edit the Charge article to fit your colorful description perfectly.
I'm getting bored.
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Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 03:45:25QUOTE (Entity @ Jan 3 2010, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So Sonic Clip 34-23 ~ Twisted Sonic 24-12 is not possible because the 24 position is not present in the first trick yet appears in the second?
I thought the wiki had to be edited by the researchers and things...But if you so desired, I could edit the Charge article to fit your colorful description perfectly.
1. That is possible. However, that is because sonic clip does pass through 24 at some point in time. Charge 23 does not "pass through" 13.
2. Wiki's are open source. I could go in right now and open a whole new page about Martin Luther King, Jr. on the UPSB wiki.
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Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 03:47:22
*sigh* I really really really hope you aren't that thick skulled in real life Entity
the sonic trick, as far as I know, does not involve any sort of charge motion as it is known by the name charge.
shall i explain what a sonic is?
You have an upward push of the pen INTO the first finger.
The pen swivels around the middle finger.
and lands in the 1-2 slot...
Where as a charge is preformed by the horizontal movement, back and forth between two fingers...
...
And regarding you response to my comment about the wiki
I don't desire that the wiki be changed to have such a definition, I was just trying to explain to you, (apparently not straight forward enough) that it isn't a source from which you draw information to "disprove" peoples arguments.
You may want to try doing it sometime though. Maybe then you can make a thread about it and talk about how it's the source of all other tricks, and make us shit brix yet again with your stunning wit and amazing counterarguments, leaving us all astounded and dodging the napalm trying to make our escape from this cavern of knowledge of which you seem to encompass as we are stunned silly to ashes by your deep Godlike, unfaltering knowledge and understanding of penspinning...
Edit: Be sure to include pix and tut plox. -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 03:58:30
I don't see where I contradict myself. My statements are consistent.
The first 1/4 rotation of Sonic is a push by the ring, middle, and index fingers. The first 1/4 rotation of Sonic is not the same as the first 1/4 rotation of Charge. If it isn't obvious enough, the wiki is wrong.
The catch for Sonic does not have a rotation. The catch for Sonic is when the pen stops id est does not rotate.
The correct notation for "Sonic Clip 34-23 ~ Twisted Sonic 24-12" is Sonic 0.5 34-24 ~> Charge 1.0 24 -> Pass Rev 0.5 24-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12. The point is that Charge does not change finger slots. -
Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 04:03:46QUOTE (Entity @ Jan 3 2010, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I has been lolcat'd...
Not talking about the ENTIRE trick...Although strat1227 can do sonic without bending his ring and index fingers in.
That "first 1/4 revolution" I said was important, you know.
That's like saying Sonic is different from Charge...Try to stick to one thing when you're trying to disprove it.
And if the Sonic push is 1.0 rotation, then what is its catch? 0.0? That doesn't make sense, does it?
So Sonic Clip 34-23 ~ Twisted Sonic 24-12 is not possible because the 24 position is not present in the first trick yet appears in the second?
I thought the wiki had to be edited by the researchers and things...But if you so desired, I could edit the Charge article to fit your colorful description perfectly.
I'm getting bored.
idk we're getting pretty bored too
actually it's fun watching and reading.
about sonic clip.. first of you didn't do the break down correctly. if it's sonic clip 34-23 ~ twisted sonic 24-12 it doesn't make sense because.. what's the ~ for? ~ means that they 'mix in' the correct breakdown for that would be sonic clip 34-24 ~ twisted sonic 24-12 otherwise you could state it as sonic clip 34-23 -> twisted sonic 23-12
and again:
definition of hybrid: A hybrid is a pen spinning combination (combo) involving one or more partial tricks. with your breakdown, charge 23 ~ charge 13 ~ charge 12, what is the name of the trick where the ~ are? it doesn't make sense that the pen ends up in different slots does it? there has to be some trick there. but there isn't. because sonic is sonic and charge is charge. all you did breakdown was the appearance.
a good example of a hybrid is twisted sonic, charge 1/4 23 ~ pass 23-12. it makes sense because there's something that can connect in between 23-12, pass 23-12. what you have been saying is that the pen magically ends up from 23 to 13 to 12. there's no trick in between those. thats why sonic is sonic.
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Date: Mon, Jan 4 2010 07:33:23
hoiboy essentially got it right,
when you say A ~ B, there must be an instance in the execution of A which overlaps with a moment in B.
when you say charge 23 ~ charge 12, there is no such overlap. charge 23 is a static trick always in contact of only 23, charge 12 is always in contact of only 12.
in sonic, there is a moment with all 3 fingers are in contact, this is not portrayed in charge 23 ~ charge 12.
in order to emulate the sonic as a hybrid you would need something between charge 23 ~ X ~ charge 12. That X needs to overlap with charge 23, then make use of 123, then go into an overlap with charge 12.
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there is also a danger with interrupted notation, because it does not specify the boundaries of division, you can overatomize tricks.
i can describe thumbaround as follow: wiper T12 ~ pass 3T-T2 ~ infinity T12. wiper because the push of thumbaround is same as wiper, pass 3t-t2 is the transition over the thumb, infinity T12 push position is the same as thumbaround catch. does this mean thumbaround is a hybrid? no. in pen spinning semantics, we simply do not require such a division, we think in usable parts.
the intent of interrupted notation is remove unique names for established hybrids and future hybrids composed of easily distinguishable parts. There's just no point in subdividing very small or easy understandable elements. basically what we did is say, "our current pool of tricks stay atomic, we build hybrids composed of those parts". it is not necessary to further divide what we establish as tricks (since it is always possible), because it goes against the intent to simplify memorization of the repertoire. it has happened in the past that division occured and created utility tricks, which is what happened with fingerpass and infinity. -
Date: Fri, Jan 8 2010 23:19:52
Looks like Zombo owned Entity,
Don't get why you just couldn't admit that sonics could be done w/ a charge 13 (also charge 13 would turn it into a hybrid), any sonic is a shadow 1.0, since they don't exist its a shadow, Our version (real sonic), Your version (****ed up hybrid with bad notation.)
ex.- if you do a sonic 34 to 12 its still a sonic but its very unlikely that you will get to do a charge 14 between the initial push and catch.
If entity can somehow disprove this argument of the 34 12 shadow still having 3 charges I will worship him.