UPSB v3
Tricks & Combos / [project][1.27] Isolation Tricks
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Date: Tue, Jan 12 2010 21:20:16
Project Name: Isolation Tricks
Project Leader: strat1227
Possible Topic: Isolation Tricks in Current Penspinning, Examples of Isolation Tricks
Abstract: Penspinning isn't new to the idea of Isolation tricks, but it is undoubtedly an underdeveloped subject. The point of this project is to A. Analyze Isolation tricks already used in Penspinning, and B. Develop the field with more ideas. -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 01:33:58
ok I must warn you that spinless and isolation have different meaning
isolation has a very specific meaning in PS: it means trick where the pen is not spinning, but it's the hand, giving the illusion that the pen is rotating around an imaginary fixed point.
spinless tricks are tricks where the pen is not moving relative to the hand that is controlling it. this means the tricks can follow the movements of the hand.
motionless tricks are tricks where the pen is completely immobile such as stalling. -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 02:24:27
Erm, I don't undertsand your definition of isolation then ... how can the pen not be spinning if it's rotating around a fixed point? For example my "hinge" fl ta rev, it literaly does spin around my thumb, and does rotate around a full 360 degrees, so would that not count as "isolation" in the classical PS definition?
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Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 02:29:48
ok lets make it simple
isolation = hinge in PS
thats it
my definition sucks
it simply refers to the fact the pen is spinning around an imaginary fixed point -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 02:51:01
oh really? is that a fairly standard definition? because there's no reason all of the ones i did, and more, shouldn't count as "isolation" really.
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Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 03:25:02
well whats ur deifnition of isolation, why cant just call them spinless and motionless
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=9162 -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 03:38:10
well, because it's neither spinless or motionless ... in any sense lol.
as of now, my vague definition of "isolation" tricks are anything where the pen has restricted or defined movement. IE, follows a certain pattern, hinged at an end, or no motion whatsoever. -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 03:47:00
like pen freeze, thats clearly motion less
hinge is spinless, because the rotation follows the hand moving
walking is neither and is just hand motion + regular spinning -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 04:09:20
yeah, the freeze is clearly spinless
but i don't understand how you can say hinge is spinless ... yes, maybe the people who just hold it and move it around in a circle (though even then the pen is rotating aroung a point ...), but in my example i did a shadow and a ta rev, both of which spin very clearly ...
as you point out, they're all different, the only thing they have in common is the non-ps definition of isolation, that is, the one i gave above.
i mean, i'm not in NC, i don't really care what you call them, but i don't understand your arguement that thye're "spinless" -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 04:11:32QUOTE (strat1227 @ Jan 12 2010, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>yeah, the freeze is clearly spinless
but i don't understand how you can say hinge is spinless ... yes, maybe the people who just hold it and move it around in a circle (though even then the pen is rotating aroung a point ...), but in my example i did a shadow and a ta rev, both of which spin very clearly ...
as you point out, they're all different, the only thing they have in common is the non-ps definition of isolation, that is, the one i gave above.
i mean, i'm not in NC, i don't really care what you call them, but i don't understand your arguement that thye're "spinless"
nm i guess it depends how you do the isolation, for triangle pass isolation its not spinless -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 14:05:44QUOTE (Zombo @ Jan 13 2010, 05:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>nm i guess it depends how you do the isolation, for triangle pass isolation its not spinless
Now there is a problem with the definition of the spinless category in the WC because this was the main example of spinless tricks (I know you changed the example in the rules but I doubt many will reread the rules and notice it). Looking at the new examples I think you wanted it to be a category for different illusion and balancing concepts and "spinless" seemed as the best term to include the most popular ones (stalls and isolation).
The whole spinless/isolation thing has lead to several new ideas that we instantly try assign to certain groups of tricks and now we have many groups or types of tricks. First of all we need to agree on the definition of each of these groups before we can assign the concepts to them because the discussion is rather confusing right now:
Spoiler:
I'll try to define all of the terms that popped up in the discussion.
Spinless
From the WC rules: "Spinless tricks are tricks where the pen is not spinning relative to the hand."
example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lbyo3PAHiQ 0:15 - 0:18
The pen is in T12 for the whole time and the rotation is caused by the movement of the arm.
Stalls are also spinless (no spinning at all -> no spinning relative to the hand)
My conclusion is that spinless is just an attribute (characteristic?) of certain tricks. It seems more like a restriction than a concept with high artistic value.
Motionless
From wikipedia: "Not moving (fixed in position, immobile, motionless, static, or at rest)."
If this only refers to the pen then motionless tricks are stalls and strat's pen freeze: keeping the whole pen in the same position in space while moving the hand around the pen. If you look at (ball) contact juggling videos you can see that this seems to be the basis for many or all isolations.
Isolation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_%28illusion%29
Isolations with pens instead of balls offers a new possibility: isolateing only the tip of the pen while the rest move around it. And this was the goal of most ps isolations so far.
Isolation is just one kind of visual illusion and it's the first type of illusion that's used in ps (apart from "magic" tricks). I guess some people will be lazy and call any similar concept an isolation e.g. strat's walking tricks. So we either agree on a broad definition of isolations that includes everything new and similar to the kind of isolations we know now or we limit it to tricks where at least a part of the pen is kept at the same position in space. -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 16:01:20QUOTE (Pudels Kern @ Jan 13 2010, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Spinless
[...]
My conclusion is that spinless is just an attribute (characteristic?) of certain tricks. It seems more like a restriction than a concept with high artistic value.If I understood you correctly you are suggesting that (already defined) tricks are executed in a certain way which is spinless in this case. From what I've seen so far its quiet the opposite. It would also be a bit strange and I can't imagine any trick to be executed spinless.
However you probably wanted to say it like this: 'Regular tricks' can't be executed spinless, spinless tricks are restricted to the defention "no movement relatively to the hand"
Read "for" instead of "of certain tricks" lol. Still I would say that this is pretty much a new concept since it is so radically different from other tricks.
As for the artistic value - Stuhls video is a bad example in this case since it implies a isolation and can be misleading. I take the following combo as an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIJHwuculZc (Spinner: Toro, Collab: JapEn 4th. Slomo and uploaded by sakun).
1:20 - 1:23 ; 1:28 - 1:30
This is not the only example by him. In many of his combos he only moves the hand while the pen actually does not move relatively to the hand. The artistic value might be very high since there are countless ways of moving the hand and the wrist to create appealing tricks. -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 17:27:37
You found the one sentence that I wanted to delete because it only shows my personal opinion
. I should have at least moved it away from my definition... I'll keep it there but everyone can just ignore it.
About the example: I thought that everyone would know that the example is just to show "spinlessnes" and the fact that it also is a isolation is more or less coincidence. Toro is also isolating the tip of his pen but you can't see it very clear because it's very short and the pen is still slightly spinning from the momentum of the previous trick, making the "spinlessnes" and isolation hard to notice. We could use one of your combos as an example though. I know that you sometimes hold the pen in your palm and move your hand randomly*. You know your videos better than I do so could you find one of that?
*personal opinion again =P -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 17:40:21QUOTE (Pudels Kern @ Jan 13 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Isolation is just one kind of visual illusion and it's the first type of illusion that's used in ps (apart from "magic" tricks). I guess some people will be lazy and call any similar concept an isolation e.g. strat's walking tricks. So we either agree on a broad definition of isolations that includes everything new and similar to the kind of isolations we know now or we limit it to tricks where at least a part of the pen is kept at the same position in space.
This is where you're just flat out incorrect. The VERY DEFINITION of isolation isQUOTEan isolation is an illusion whereby a prop appears to float in space, with the performer's hands and body moving around it.
It does NOT have to be the tip of the pen fixed, or any other specific thing. ANY illusion where the prop appears to float on its own is an isolation. Calling walking isolation isn't "lazy", it's factually accurate.
Therefore, "walking" "hinge" and "freeze" are all, by definition, isolation tricks.
Now spinless? I have no clue, I've never understood that definition from the beginning.
But the main point to get across is, the current PS definition of isolation isn't consistant with the normal definition. Do we adhere to the restrictive PS definition? Or can all isolation manipultions be called "isolation"? -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 17:59:40QUOTE (Pudels Kern @ Jan 13 2010, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Now there is a problem with the definition of the spinless category in the WC because this was the main example of spinless tricks (I know you changed the example in the rules but I doubt many will reread the rules and notice it). Looking at the new examples I think you wanted it to be a category for different illusion and balancing concepts and "spinless" seemed as the best term to include the most popular ones (stalls and isolation).
the rulebook was written in the summer, there was no clear definition, I just used whatever represents best the idea.QUOTEMy conclusion is that spinless is just an attribute (characteristic?) of certain tricks. It seems more like a restriction than a concept with high artistic value.
if anything, the only purpose of spinless is to add artistic value, because most of the time spinless motions are not even tricks.
FPSB has a bunch of them, I will pull them when I have time.QUOTEIf this only refers to the pen then motionless tricks are stalls and strat's pen freeze: keeping the whole pen in the same position in space while moving the hand around the pen. If you look at (ball) contact juggling videos you can see that this seems to be the basis for many or all isolations.
yes i think that's correct. please note that if the pen does move it could just be a sequence of two motionless tricks:
example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMkNRMvefpQ (2 stalls)QUOTEI guess some people will be lazy and call any similar concept an isolation e.g. strat's walking tricks. So we either agree on a broad definition of isolations that includes everything new and similar to the kind of isolations we know now or we limit it to tricks where at least a part of the pen is kept at the same position in space.
I think what happened with walking is that it is not a new technique per se, but rather a sequence of hinge tricks. Each "step" of the walk is a hinge around one tip, then the next step is a hinge around another tip. If think it like that, you think of it like isolation.
IMO, what happened was that the original thread where the term isolation was used, the person showed an example of it and called it isolation triangle pass, and it showed hinge technique. Since people only knew about this example, they named isolation for that only, but we can release an article making a formal definition of isolation, sinec there are none. -
Date: Wed, Jan 13 2010 20:19:20
if we release an article, I STRONGLY propose we use the true definition and not the "hinge only" one, that definition makes no sense.
I also suggest we do it after WC is over, or at least any rounds that include 'spinless' themes.