UPSB v3
Philosophy / Discourse on the metaphysics of Pen Spinning
What is Pen Spinning, exactly?
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Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 06:44:27
"What is Pen Spinning, exactly?"
I have released an article which investigates this question and asks even more questions about it, guiding questions which will help us better understand future developments in Pen Spinning. Have a look, it's on the Wiki:
http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php?title=...of_Pen_Spinning
If you have any comments or reactions or your own thoughts on "what is pen spinning", post here. -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 12:53:42
Nice article Zombo, though I edited and fixed a couple of grammatical issues
Also, I don't think the third part is universal. I recognize that I'm probably very much in the minority, but pen spinning to me has never been about the aesthetics, it's an intellectual endevor, a thought game really.
The first time I saw a thumbaround the concept was just so damned intriging, I didn't really care that it "looked good", but just invoked my physical interest, similar to this whole deal:
Even today the coolest videos to me aren't the ones that "look good", as I fully understand those lol, it's just practicing motions until they're fluid. My favorites are the ones that require thought, and/or make me appreciate the physical properties behind the combo. -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 15:27:26
I think that to see something which seems to defy the laws of physics is one aspect of aestheticism. we didn't think this was even possible, so it looks good. that's one way to impress people. IMO that's a subset of aesthetics.
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Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 15:43:27
i liked the article a lot zombo.
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Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 17:29:12
I had to go look up the definition of "metaphysics" for this to make sense to me !
I liked some of the parts for example what is the definition of spinning (as defined by what's doing the manipulation)
but I agree with strat that I dont do it because it looks cool, but rather for the challenge - for example some combos I can do with my eyes closed now and its still nice to feel the momentum shifting.
anyways good article but it was a bit tough for me to read, maybe because of all the technical language or lack of pictures or something? -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 17:48:45
For Aesthetics, there are actually two levels to consider.
The "simplest" level is "descriptive aesthetics". In this situation, we are attempting to explain why pen spinning looks good or why we like a combo. We take existing combos and attempt to explain why they are impressive. I think this is very important aspect to consider but it helps us understand why we're doing combos the way they are. It also helps us better understand how to judge combos.
Here is an article by Lindor (from FPSB) which attempts to explain this question of "What is aesthetic?" from a descriptive point of view:QUOTE (Lindor)I will personally attempt to define what are globally the criteria for "flashiness" of combos.
1) Auto-comparison: Normally, the first thing that makes a spinner impressive for us, is his/her capacity of doing things we are not able to. This is subjective to the person watching the combo, but it represents well what happens in reality.
More precisely, auto-comparison can be divided into 3 categories:
1.1 "I don't know how to do it": We look at the combo and we see tricks or elements that are very difficult or very smooth and we have no idea how it's even impossible to execute it at a high level.
1.2 "I didn't understand": What happens here is that a combo looks generally pretty but we have no idea what actually happened. It boggled our mind and amazed us because we couldn't figure out what was going on. We can't understand how the pen managed to transfer from one location to another. This is one of the reasons beginners are easily impressed because they don't know the necessary knowledge to understand everything that happens in a combo. This is also the reason why after a deep analysis of a combo, our understanding of the combo improves and our opinion can change.
1.3 "I don't do it like that": This is a measure of style, the spinner is executing tricks that we know but in their own way. Their spinning have a personality which is remarkably identifiable and makes that spinner unique. This ability to define your own style creates admiration. As an example, some people still consider leo's 6 busts to be the prettiest busts, even though this record as long since been broken.
2) Ease: Here we talk about more conventional criteria. A combo executed with ease is impressive. This combines fluidity, tempo and also has a difficulty requirement (a charge 12 executed with ease is not impressive).
3) Structure: A combo can be impressive by the way it is structured: what tricks are used, how are they linked, how are they distributed in the combo, do they go well with each other, does the whole combo form a coherent unit, etc.
As you can see, "not understanding a combo" is exactly what is defined in 1.2, and is thus part of aesthetics. It's one of the many reasons you can use that makes a combo appealing.
What my article talks about is "normative aesthetics": what ought or not ought to be aesthetic in pen spinning. We talk about aesthetics which is not familiar to what we know. That's where external sources (outside of the pen) of aesthetics can be considered (i.e. aesthetics of the hands -> can we like a pen spinning combo because the hands move nicely?). We also talk about whether a manipulation which has different purpose than aesthetic, which has a side effect of being aesthetic, can be considered pen spinning. This the case of calligraphy (aesthetics of the strokes is not the main purpose, the aesthetics of the written characters are) and pen modding (making a mod is the main purpose, but it could be the pen is manipulated in such a way that aesthetics is produced in the act of modding). Are the aesthetics limited to visual sense? Can aural aesthetics be used in pen spinning? -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 19:30:15
I've never seen (and I actually just looked, and couldn't find), any definition of aesthetics that would include intellectual appreciation, I'm not sure that that word covers what I was talking about in my first post.
I mean just because Lindor made a post saying it was aesthetics doesn't make it true
Also when you saidQUOTEwe didn't think this was even possible, so it looks good.
it seems like you're just trying to mold the situation to fit the word "aesthetic." As I said, it's intellectual for me, I don't care that it looks good really, so it doesn't seem to apply.
However, as I said, this seems to be the general concensus, you can't write a general definition to please every individual, so I think overall yours is fairly accurate, just won't hold true for every single person -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 19:36:30
well pen spinning is an art, so aesthetics is like saying having artistic value.
if you consider pen spinning a hard application of physics, a problem of solving physical laws that govern the motion fo the pen, then you lose the artistic side of pen spinning. that's generally not what we think of PS. thats like saying music is a sequence of sound waves with specific patterns. that's true, but at the human perception level, it's an art. -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 19:51:25
I personally don't consider penspinning and music in the same category though
penspinning to me is more like skateboarding or something, it's about the challenge. you can do it by yourself, or competeatively, but it's still about pushing yourself to be better -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 20:08:34QUOTE (strat1227 @ Feb 3 2010, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I personally don't consider penspinning and music in the same category though
penspinning to me is more like skateboarding or something, it's about the challenge. you can do it by yourself, or competeatively, but it's still about pushing yourself to be better
i guess aesthetics in this sense means we do pen spinning for the sole purpose of appreciating what we do.
writing for example, is not something we necessarily do because we appreciate. we sometimes do it because we need the product that result from writing, which is written text.
in pen spinning there's no product that result from spinning the pen, so your purpose is simply liking what you do.
in pen modding, the purpose is not necessarily because you like creating mods, but maybe because you want a mod. in other words, the mod is your purpose.
so in this article, the definition of aesthetics as the purpose of pen spinning is that we do pen psinning to appreciate it (or have someone else appreciate it). it doesnt generate anything else, theres no other purpose it could have other than our subjective enjoyment of it. it's not like you do pen spinning to keep in shape, because its not very physical. -
Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 21:34:01
I really enjoyed reading this article Zombo
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Date: Wed, Feb 3 2010 22:11:02
Great. I enjoyed reading
. One small thing you may want to add is in the What Is a Pen. I think you should add somthing about markers like CT, KT, Miffy, Comssa, Reynolds, Supertip, etc. I'd say we use markers more often then pencils and almost as much as actual pen parts.
If you don't it really doesn't matter, just you had somthing about pencils so i thought you should add somthing about markers.
Nice article again. -
Date: Thu, Feb 4 2010 01:06:22
As always, philosophy tends to screw with definitions - it tends to depend on how said person was brought up.
I'm going to play the igoramus/simple minded person and say that if it looks good, it's aesthetic. Irrelevant on how complicated or simple it may be; both can be pleasing to watch.
edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics#Aesthetic_universals -
Date: Thu, Feb 4 2010 01:11:02QUOTE (Ktk @ Feb 3 2010, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As always, philosophy tends to screw with definitions - it tends to depend on how said person was brought up.
I'm going to play the igoramus/simple minded person and say that if it looks good, it's aesthetic. Irrelevant on how complicated or simple it may be; both can be pleasing to watch.
edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics#Aesthetic_universals
excellent, but you still need to answer the other 2 questions
what is a pen?
what is a manipulation?
you say if it looks good, it's aesthetic. That's fine, but WHAT must look good? the pen? the hand? why just look good? can it sound good also? can it feel good? -
Date: Thu, Feb 4 2010 22:38:46
Well to manipulate is to control so controlling includes pen spinning but it also includes writing, but the definition also includes "especially for one's own advantage" so I think because we enjoy pen spinning it is definitely manipulation.
Also I think that pen spinning tricks must be aesthetic because I dont see one move out their used widely that doesnt look cool. However since aesthetics are opinion some tricks aren't really actual tricks
And technically (some)pen mods that cant write aren't pens, this is because pen comes from pinna which is feather according to my latin teacher who "wishes I would stop spinning that ridiculous stick", anyway because the word pen comes from something that cant contain ink but can transfer it effectively that means that as long as a mod cant transfer ink , like i matts sceptor mod http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showt...t=0&start=0, its not a pen.
At least ihmo
But I think when it comes down to it its all common sense, people at my school who cant pen spin still call what I do penspinning without me saying anything, they have ideas about what looks cool and what doesnt, and one person who i know for a fact doesnt pen spin called my pen exactly a "pen mod", so in my opinion I think definitions are restricting and evil
, good art isnt art an artist likes but something the viewer does, so defining pen spinning shouldnt be a job left up to spinners, our audience should decide.
If you see a bad TV show its no longer TV its garbage, so if someone thinks a trick I do looks bad then its not penspinning to them, its failure.
Edit:
Like in strats case if aesthetics is not about beuaty but is an intellectual endeavor then it can at least be defined/restricted as pen manipulation,
Strat is controlling the pen in a way that benefits him.
Pretty much if you like the act of penspinning it is manipulation
Edit2:
Would like to raise the question why we need to define everything in our world, pen spinning is spinning a pen anything further is verbose and unnecessary.
But since I already wrote this I wont delete the above. -
Date: Thu, Feb 4 2010 22:41:15
i've never shown PS vids or actually PS'ed to show others though, 99% of the time our audience IS PSers
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Date: Thu, Feb 4 2010 22:41:25
"Well to manipulate is to control so controlling includes pen spinning but it also includes writing, but the definition also includes "especially for one's own advantage" so I think because we enjoy pen spinning it is definitely manipulation."
you got it backwards
we know pen spinning contains manipulation. we're asking what kind of manipulations is considered a "pen spinning manipulation" -
Date: Tue, Feb 9 2010 22:29:20
Answer to above post-
Any manipulation where the pen is spinning or is being controlled in a way closely analogous to moves considered to be apart of Pen Spinning as a sport/hobby and not as a literal rule.
There is a literal definition and then the one for Pen Spinning, note the caps.
When it is moved to proper noun status it becomes kind of like a sport. So rather than football(soccer) being a sport where you put your foot on the ball, it is a sport where you run, kick, fake out, etc. In American football you can use your hands so why cant you stall in Pen spinning.
The only real way to define whats included other than spinning a pen is to take a vote.
So its up to the individual to decide what they want. Spinning a pen is self explanatory but the way some people practice Pen Spinning it might as well be a sport.
P.S.- If the word for what we do wouldve been coined later the technical definition might have pen tricking, im guessing back in china where it started (supposedly) the pen wasnt being stalled thrown or modded.
But question: Do we have to define this seems like the definition of any thing that isnt dead would have to be constantly changed. Change = not fun -
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2010 03:57:16
Are pens limited only to what you can buy? Are modified pens acceptable? What about mods that do not use a pen as base? Is there a limit on pen weight and length?
Do we take the literal meaning of manipulation, which is simply the handling of the pen in any fashion? Or are there any additional restriction? Is it simply a question of experience, where new manipulations can be added to the repertoire only if they are similar or derived from current established knowledge?
Does this now become accepted as pen spinning? What makes this different from just any juggling of pens? One might say it is because it contains regular pen spinning tricks, but then, why shouldn't regular juggling tosses with the whole hand not be part of the pen spinning repertoire?
Are these kind of manipulations acceptable in pen spinning?
Is that still pen spinning? I make a whole combo where the pen is manipulated by other pens, but never directly touch my hands. Is that pen spinning? What's the difference between that and "devil sticking with pens"?
Should those still be considered? If partially, what makes some acceptable, others not?
my friend wanted to critique it...
person that knows nothing about pen spinning. but this looks like it would be aimed at those kinds of people. -
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2010 05:28:08QUOTE (octan3 @ Feb 9 2010, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>my friend wanted to critique it...
person that knows nothing about pen spinning. but this looks like it would be aimed at those kinds of people.
i can't understand what you're saying, rephrase it. -
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2010 06:54:24
I am asking, who is the audience for this article?
Is it just going to be pen spinners? Or viewed by people who want to learn more about pen spinning but at that time not know as much about it? -
Date: Wed, Feb 10 2010 13:17:28
its for pen spinners who know what pen spinning currently is, and want to think about what it could be
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Date: Wed, Feb 10 2010 23:16:31
it has some open-ended questions, could you please edit the article to include answers to those questions that I posted on the previous page?
with these many questions inside the article, there has to be some kind of answer to them...
with so many not answered questions, the importance of the article degrades =/
seems that most of it is just based on opinion itself. -
Date: Thu, Feb 11 2010 00:01:26QUOTE (octan3 @ Feb 10 2010, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>it has some open-ended questions, could you please edit the article to include answers to those questions that I posted on the previous page?
with these many questions inside the article, there has to be some kind of answer to them...
with so many not answered questions, the importance of the article degrades =/
seems that most of it is just based on opinion itself.
uh that's kinda the point ... it's supposed to be thought-provoking, not an absolute answer ... there ARE no answers to a lot of them ... if he edited in answer's it'd just be "Zombo's opinions on penspinning" and not an official article -
Date: Thu, Feb 11 2010 00:03:17QUOTE (octan3 @ Feb 10 2010, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>it has some open-ended questions, could you please edit the article to include answers to those questions that I posted on the previous page?
with these many questions inside the article, there has to be some kind of answer to them...
with so many not answered questions, the importance of the article degrades =/
seems that most of it is just based on opinion itself.
those questions are unanswered, we have to answer them in the future, i'm only listing what kind of questions we will have to answer. i do offer some suggestions of answers but no absolute.