UPSB v3
Serious Discussion / Despair
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Date: Fri, Feb 12 2010 22:02:24
The human leads an individual existence. There is a need to form social groups together, but that means continuously appealing to society's values.
Do you ever despair at always having concede to another person's point of view? It's essential but it's so tiring when the people around you don't share the same values as you. -
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 12:43:13
I do. Constantly. It's the reason why I dislike family dinner when my father is around.
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Date: Sun, Feb 14 2010 06:02:38
I do too, in the opposite of what you think. No matter what kind of society it becomes, it'll probably make you in despair.
If people work too much on improving society, because the goal of society is to make everyone believe a certain belief is "right" so that the whole society could prosper, it'll destroy your own individual thoughts.
If people work too much on improving individual, because the goal of individual is to make individual happy, it'll make unstable society where everyone is selfish.
So then let's say we have a balanced society between the two. That's what people's been looking for. I, IMO, think Japan leans more on the Former while USA leaning on the latter. Either way, it doesn't make a difference that you have to sacrifice some of your ideas and apply society's ideas into yours.
The more "safe" society you look for is the society where you have to suppress your own self. The more "free" society you look for is the society where you have to protect yourself from other selfish people. Which you value is up to you. But either way, gets you in despair.
That's why people's been long looking for Utopia and never succeeded in getting one. Because it CANNOT exist. -
Date: Sun, Feb 14 2010 13:47:40
This thread really reminded me of Equilibrium...
I think it's kinda interesting finding out other people's values, and sharing your own... w/o this the world would be boring, and meeting new people would become unwanted
I personally think positively about this, and being in despair cause of different values seems unnecessary
...or maybe I have met a few people w/ same/similar values as myself, so I do not feel the same way as you, though I think there will always be someone who feels things the same way as you
Just try to find them -
Date: Sun, Feb 14 2010 15:35:25
Sorry, I forgot to add the most important thing on my post. It looked like I agreed on kensai.
I find myself in despair when you have to assimilate your own view with other people's view. When I got to Japan, I had big trouble melting into Japanese society because I was too "American" and held pride in my own views, and thought I had the right to have one. But people just say "why can't you just follow the flow?". Basically, my problem with JEB also happened here. Because I had a view that what I think would probably make JEB a better place for everyone, but not only they criticize, but they flamed me, because I had radically different view.
It's the difference of what I actually think and what I should think. And I hate myself ALWAYS assimilating my own views with what the society thinks. Not many people in Japan wants to accept people having very different views.
I wish people could accept that everyone is just different. -
Date: Sun, Feb 14 2010 15:59:17QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 14 2010, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sorry, I forgot to add the most important thing on my post. It looked like I agreed on kensai.
I find myself in despair when you have to assimilate your own view with other people's view. When I got to Japan, I had big trouble melting into Japanese society because I was too "American" and held pride in my own views, and thought I had the right to have one. But people just say "why can't you just follow the flow?". Basically, my problem with JEB also happened here. Because I had a view that what I think would probably make JEB a better place for everyone, but not only they criticize, but they flamed me, because I had radically different view.
It's the difference of what I actually think and what I should think. And I hate myself ALWAYS assimilating my own views with what the society thinks. Not many people in Japan wants to accept people having very different views.
I wish people could accept that everyone is just different.
We've been through a similar experience. I spent my formative years in Australia, and till this day even Singaporeans notice that I am different. At my core I'm an individualist but, being in a stressful Asian society like yours, I have no choice but to conform. Maybe that's why I've come to despair, because I've met so few original people.
However, one thing I have learnt is to argue from other people's perspective to get what I want. But to me, mutual respect is accorded when one argues from one's own point of view and trusts the other party to sincerely argue back from his own perspective. Isn't that the start of honesty, sincerity, truth, discourse, science, and the foundation of progressive knowledge? -
Date: Sun, Feb 14 2010 16:52:13
true that.
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Date: Thu, Feb 25 2010 02:29:39QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 14 2010, 01:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If people work too much on improving society, because the goal of society is to make everyone believe a certain belief is "right" so that the whole society could prosper, it'll destroy your own individual thoughts.
I don't think these have ever really been "goals" of any society.A society can function just fine without everyone agreeing on everything. This is a principle the US was one of the first countries to adopt.QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 14 2010, 01:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That's why people's been long looking for Utopia and never succeeded in getting one. Because it CANNOT exist.
You seem overly confident in making this statement. I suppose it depends on your definition of Utopia.
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Date: Thu, Feb 25 2010 02:40:10QUOTE (Sadistic @ Feb 24 2010, 10:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I don't think these have ever really been "goals" of any society.A society can function just fine without everyone agreeing on everything. This is a principle the US was one of the first countries to adopt.
Sure there have, they're a lot less common but they definitely exist/have existed. Religious communes in the 19th century is one good example that comes to mind -
Date: Thu, Feb 25 2010 03:59:06QUOTE (strat1227 @ Feb 24 2010, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sure there have, they're a lot less common but they definitely exist/have existed. Religious communes in the 19th century is one good example that comes to mind
EDIT: You know what, just scratch that first sentence all together -
Date: Fri, Feb 26 2010 06:25:18QUOTE (Sadistic @ Feb 25 2010, 11:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I don't think these have ever really been "goals" of any society.A society can function just fine without everyone agreeing on everything. This is a principle the US was one of the first countries to adopt.
Nah. You are just taking my statements way to extreme. Of course no one agrees on EVERYTHING. but even in USA, there are some manners or some standards that are supposed to be practiced. But some people are dissatisfied with such standards. Some people don't want to pledge to the flag in school everyday. There are some standards that society makes. Though, the degree of how strict or loose the standards differs from country to country. But that only crushes minorities. Just because Majority are good, doesn't make the society perfect. never does. that's what I was pointing out.
I mean you could get suspended for not doing the Pledge of Allegiance in school.QUOTEYou seem overly confident in making this statement. I suppose it depends on your definition of Utopia.
True that. I define Utopia as "a society where EVERYONE is without any dissatisfaction". -
Date: Fri, Feb 26 2010 06:49:49QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 26 2010, 02:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Nah. You are just taking my statements way to extreme. Of course no one agrees on EVERYTHING. but even in USA, there are some manners or some standards that are supposed to be practiced. But some people are dissatisfied with such standards. Some people don't want to pledge to the flag in school everyday. There are some standards that society makes. Though, the degree of how strict or loose the standards differs from country to country. But that only crushes minorities. Just because Majority are good, doesn't make the society perfect. never does. that's what I was pointing out.
I suppose so. Certainly America is known for pushing agendas on people, but legally everyone has a right to resist most assimilations. The only time anyone is legally forced to assimilate is when the rest of the society is at risk of being damaged otherwise.QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 26 2010, 02:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I mean you could get suspended for not doing the Pledge of Allegiance in school.
No? You might get ostracized if you did something like this in a school in the bible belt, but a school would never suspend a student on the basis of not pledging allegiance unless they wanted a lawsuit (the exception would be a private school of course, but you're expected to take on this burden of standards when not going to a public school)....QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 26 2010, 02:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>True that. I define Utopia as "a society where EVERYONE is without any dissatisfaction".
Sounds awful to me lol....Human disagreement will exist so long as there is any semblance of free will, and I would never consider that a bad thing. -
Date: Fri, Feb 26 2010 10:39:59QUOTE (Sadistic @ Feb 26 2010, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I suppose so. Certainly America is known for pushing agendas on people, but legally everyone has a right to resist most assimilations. The only time anyone is legally forced to assimilate is when the rest of the society is at risk of being damaged otherwise.
and exactly my point too. Everyone could act all selfish but that would damage the society.QUOTENo? You might get ostracized if you did something like this in a school in the bible belt, but a school would never suspend a student on the basis of not pledging allegiance unless they wanted a lawsuit (the exception would be a private school of course, but you're expected to take on this burden of standards when not going to a public school)....
http://www.startribune.com/nation/18800444.html
at least it happened here.QUOTESounds awful to me lol....Human disagreement will exist so long as there is any semblance of free will, and I would never consider that a bad thing.
What? when did I talk about human disagreement in my definition of Utopia? -
Date: Sun, Feb 28 2010 20:51:58QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 26 2010, 05:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And as you can see in the last paragraph or so, the mentioning of how unconstitutional that is? I wouldn't be surprised if those parents had threatened a lawsuit if the school didn't expunge the expulsion from the kid's records.QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Feb 26 2010, 05:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What? when did I talk about human disagreement in my definition of Utopia?
I assumed that everyone being satisfied included no disagreement upon how the society should be run. -
Date: Mon, Mar 1 2010 09:30:47QUOTE (Sadistic @ Mar 1 2010, 05:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And as you can see in the last paragraph or so, the mentioning of how unconstitutional that is? I wouldn't be surprised if those parents had threatened a lawsuit if the school didn't expunge the expulsion from the kid's records.
I know. I read the whole thing. But it still happens. Bigger authority, the society, stuff like that. In fact, that teacher was in charge of the whole class, and he makes the class face certain way (in this case everyone MUST do the pledge of allegiance). More or less, there are some sort of direction that people are forced to face. Even in USA, it first looks like relative freedom, but in fact there are still some path you should walk. That's why laws exist. Just because they want to make a good society, they will force individual to face certain way. But in fact, people sometimes want to do something that may damage the society. People are naturally selfish. It's how the society suppress that.
You might wanna look at Structuralism, a relatively correct view of society.QUOTEI assumed that everyone being satisfied included no disagreement upon how the society should be run.
Well your assumption is wrong. Good you mentioned that, so I'll use that.
You think having certain amount of disagreement is good, so do I. But some people think he wants everyone to think the same way he does, disliking disagreements. Is it possible to satisfy both? Impossible. They are the polar opposite. Utopia must make everyone satisfied. A utopia for certain person might be distopia for another person. You'll know this if you have read Brave New World.
For you or I, feel that certain amount of disagreements and things makes a good society, but not for everyone. That's why Utopia can't exist. -
Date: Mon, Mar 1 2010 16:42:27QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Mar 1 2010, 04:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well your assumption is wrong.
Tbh, this is why I don't like talking to you in Serious Discussion.
We're discussion opinions here, seriously, stop telling people straight up "you're wrong."
You can say "I don't think so" or "I disagree" or whatever the fuck else you want, but I'm not going to let you keep speaking in absolutes like that, especially if we're talking about opinions. -
Date: Mon, Mar 1 2010 22:15:08QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Mar 1 2010, 05:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>People are naturally selfish. It's how the society suppress that.
I would argue the opposite. People seem far too pessimistic on reflection their own race, but perhaps that's because, as you exemplified in your rather controversial thread, the media will more often report on damaging things than successful things, in terms of the ratio in which they happen. The biological leash holds back the bad tendencies people may otherwise have to behave immorally as far as I can tell, and from economical experiments like those of Paul Feldman (Freakonomics is such a great book), that seems to ring true for greed.QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Mar 1 2010, 05:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You think having certain amount of disagreement is good, so do I. But some people think he wants everyone to think the same way he does, disliking disagreements. Is it possible to satisfy both? Impossible. They are the polar opposite. Utopia must make everyone satisfied. A utopia for certain person might be distopia for another person. You'll know this if you have read Brave New World.
For you or I, feel that certain amount of disagreements and things makes a good society, but not for everyone. That's why Utopia can't exist.
A universal utopia may not be able to exist, but the entire concept of a utopia is a goal held in the eye of the beholder isn't it? I certainly wouldn't want to live in the utopia of a 63 year old muslim rabbi from Iran, and I'm sure he wouldn't want to live in mine.
unless....your utopia was for everyone to have their own utopia, like a matrix....where oh where did this topic's direction go..... -
Date: Tue, Mar 2 2010 05:12:52QUOTE (Sadistic @ Mar 2 2010, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would argue the opposite. People seem far too pessimistic on reflection their own race, but perhaps that's because, as you exemplified in your rather controversial thread, the media will more often report on damaging things than successful things, in terms of the ratio in which they happen. The biological leash holds back the bad tendencies people may otherwise have to behave immorally as far as I can tell, and from economical experiments like those of Paul Feldman (Freakonomics is such a great book), that seems to ring true for greed.
Well if you would argue the opposite, then I assume you are saying that people are naturally not selfish.
I disagree. More like almost everyone lives for their own self. I mean you probably have bought a PC, or may buy a PC in the future, but you know that $500 or so could save hundreds of hungry children out there in the world. If you stop and think about it for moment, you know that you could be less selfish to try to satisfy your self-interest and donate those money to the world. I mean you could still live without a PC. But because you feel you "need" a PC, you buy it. You probably don't give a moment to stop and think that you could use the money for other people. There's always an exception to this. I know. There are people who sacrifice themselves for other people. But speaking generally, no. I don't think that's the case.
People who donate money probably have already satisfied most of their own self-interests at first. People usually try to satisfy their own wants and needs first. And then they would try to do something for other people.
I mean let's get simple. You probably wouldn't sacrifice your own time teaching your friend how to do a homework. You would either finish the homework first, or do the homework and help other at the same time.QUOTEA universal utopia may not be able to exist, but the entire concept of a utopia is a goal held in the eye of the beholder isn't it? I certainly wouldn't want to live in the utopia of a 63 year old muslim rabbi from Iran, and I'm sure he wouldn't want to live in mine.
Yes. I was pointing out the universal utopia. And yes you are right, concept of a utopia is a goal held in the eye of the beholder. And that's the main reason why it only satisfies people with exactly the same idea as the beholder.
In fact, I'm pretty much dissatisfied with my own life too. As I said above, I am always dissatisfied that I have to change my own opinion to meet the majority's opinion, especially over here in Japan. But I found myself being dissatisfied back in US as well (though in a lower level). So probably, I would have some sort of dissatisfaction anywhere I go.QUOTEunless....your utopia was for everyone to have their own utopia, like a matrix
If that's possible, then I would like it. But we always have some sort of resistance to those ideas of using technology directly into our brains. -
Date: Wed, Mar 3 2010 17:37:33QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Mar 2 2010, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well if you would argue the opposite, then I assume you are saying that people are naturally not selfish.
I disagree. More like almost everyone lives for their own self. I mean you probably have bought a PC, or may buy a PC in the future, but you know that $500 or so could save hundreds of hungry children out there in the world. If you stop and think about it for moment, you know that you could be less selfish to try to satisfy your self-interest and donate those money to the world. I mean you could still live without a PC. But because you feel you "need" a PC, you buy it. You probably don't give a moment to stop and think that you could use the money for other people. There's always an exception to this. I know. There are people who sacrifice themselves for other people. But speaking generally, no. I don't think that's the case.
People who donate money probably have already satisfied most of their own self-interests at first. People usually try to satisfy their own wants and needs first. And then they would try to do something for other people.
Greed can only really be measured against the peers of your own society though, because socially acceptable interaction requires you to full-fill the "basic" social standards-new clothes, computer, television etc.
Once someone significantly raises above the basic living standards, I suppose it could be considered greedy if you didn't use a reasonable percentage of your wealth on philanthropy.QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Mar 2 2010, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I mean let's get simple. You probably wouldn't sacrifice your own time teaching your friend how to do a homework. You would either finish the homework first, or do the homework and help other at the same time.
I would help him with his math though, in expectation that the favor may be returned some day (This isn't exactly what I mean but I'm sorta too busy to elaborate lol)
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Date: Thu, Mar 4 2010 05:18:40QUOTE (Sadistic @ Mar 4 2010, 02:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Greed can only really be measured against the peers of your own society though, because socially acceptable interaction requires you to full-fill the "basic" social standards-new clothes, computer, television etc.
Once someone significantly raises above the basic living standards, I suppose it could be considered greedy if you didn't use a reasonable percentage of your wealth on philanthropy.
I disagree. Greed is greed no matter how society sees it. Selfishness is selfishness no matter how society sees it. It's just whether the society justifies it or not.
People could be greedy just to satisfy the basic living needs like food if they are extremely poor. They could steal food, steal money, etc. But they could also choose not to steal for fearing punishments from the society (or some other sources like God). For example, you are poor, and thinks of an idea to steal something but quickly puts away that thought by saying "that's the wrong thing to do". You have to pause right there. The idea of "steal something" itself is the appearance of greed.
Most people are naturally selfish. Parents do their job trying to suppress selfishness so that they won't go and just kill someone just because they hate someone or feel like it, so that they won't go stealing other people's stuff just because they want it (appears often in little kids), etc.QUOTEI would help him with his math though, in expectation that the favor may be returned some day (This isn't exactly what I mean but I'm sorta too busy to elaborate lol)
Yea but you would probably do your homework first rather than help your friend first. That's the point. -
Date: Thu, Mar 4 2010 06:41:14QUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Mar 4 2010, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I disagree. Greed is greed no matter how society sees it. Selfishness is selfishness no matter how society sees it. It's just whether the society justifies it or not.
People could be greedy just to satisfy the basic living needs like food if they are extremely poor. They could steal food, steal money, etc. But they could also choose not to steal for fearing punishments from the society (or some other sources like God). For example, you are poor, and thinks of an idea to steal something but quickly puts away that thought by saying "that's the wrong thing to do". You have to pause right there. The idea of "steal something" itself is the appearance of greed.
Most people are naturally selfish. Parents do their job trying to suppress selfishness so that they won't go and just kill someone just because they hate someone or feel like it, so that they won't go stealing other people's stuff just because they want it (appears often in little kids), etc.
Your standards for not being greedy are too high, so it matters little whether or not you say everyone is greedyQUOTE (Dark Angel-REX @ Mar 4 2010, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yea but you would probably do your homework first rather than help your friend first. That's the point.
That simply is not greed. From Dictionary.com:
greed·y
   /ˈgridi/ Show Spelled[gree-dee] Show IPA
–adjective,greed·i·er, greed·i·est.
1.
excessively or inordinately desirous of wealth, profit, etc.; avaricious: the greedy owners of the company.
2.
having a strong or great desire for food or drink.
3.
keenly desirous; eager (often fol. by of or for): greedy for praise.
How can you consider completing your own homework before assisting a friend greedy? -
Date: Thu, Mar 4 2010 06:55:11
oh sorry. I meant selfish.