UPSB v3

Advanced Tricks / In regard to the finger spin.

And a discussion on the term mirrored and reverse.

EssenceOfLife
Date: Wed, Mar 24 2010 14:27:45

Normal: the pen rotates around, and spins on top of, the finger in a counter-clockwise direction (right-handed).
Reverse: the pen rotates around, and spins on top of, the finger in a clockwise direction (right-handed).

(from the wiki)

How would you notate a fingerspin that starts in 1-2 and has a reverse "around" direction? Seeing as a fingerspin reverse is a reverse spin direction according to the wiki in this context.

I had always thought a reverse of a trick meant an opposite direction (overall) and then the mirror of the trick would refer to the same direction but opposite spin.

Under this definition wouldn't the current "reverse" finerspin be considered a mirrored fignerspin, while a reverse finger spin would be more like this definition: Reverse: the pen rotates in the opposite direction around, and spins on top of, the finger in a clockwise direction (right-handed). ?

For instance, a reverse midback 1.5 isn't a midback with a reverse 1.5 spin but rather a reverse midback (other direction) with an additional .5 rotation on top of the finger. Wheras a midback with a reverse 1.5 with be more suffecient under the term Mirrored midback 1.5.
Mats
Date: Wed, Mar 24 2010 14:56:06

QUOTE
How would you notate a fingerspin that starts in 1-2 and has a reverse "around" direction? Seeing as a fingerspin reverse is a reverse spin direction according to the wiki in this context.

Let's use an Indexspin as an example. It's going to be an Indexaround Normal (which spins anti-clockwise) going into an Indexspin Reverse (which spins clockwise). The pen will do a half revolution around the index finger before doing a full revolution on the finger.

We would simply write: Indexaround Normal 0.5 ~ Indexspin Reverse 1.0.

I'm not really sure how you could change spin direction of a pen like this, but notation seems to cover all cases anyway.
Pudels Kern
Date: Wed, Mar 24 2010 16:01:53

"Mirrored" is not an official modifier. I've never heard of mirrored fingerspins and I doubt they are possible (like Mats broke it down).

QUOTE ("wiki")
Reverse: the pen rotates around [...] the finger in a clockwise direction (right-handed).

That means a fingeraround reverse starts with an around reverse and not an around normal.

To anyone who says there are mirrored fingerspins: vids or it didn't happen.
Mats
Date: Wed, Mar 24 2010 16:12:25

QUOTE (Pudels Kern @ Mar 24 2010, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Mirrored" is not an official modifier. I've never heard of mirrored fingerspins and I doubt they are possible (like Mats broke it down)

'Mirrored' I think is a word many people would like not to hear when everything can be broken down anyway.
QUOTE
That means a fingeraround reverse starts with an around reverse and not an around normal.

This is correct. Same as Backaround Normal links to TA Reverse in Bak ~ TA Rev. Is the wiki unclear on this? Maybe I can make it clearer.
EssenceOfLife
Date: Thu, Mar 25 2010 02:27:32

Ah, Mats, thanks for clearing that up, I was thinking that the fingerspins included the "around" motion linked into the trick.

And a mirrored finger spin would be simple, you could A. Do it with your left hand. witch would technically qualify it as a "mirrored" version of a normal finger spin. B. practice it and get it down =P with the right hand =P.

Also keep in mind that my definition of mirrored could be wrong as well, but from how I see it a mirrored trick is basically a trick with the same direction but alternate spin, inverse is same direction other side, reverse is same side opposite direction.

Mats, I think most people avoid labeling things as mirrored as A: the tricks would be extremely difficult and most likely less attractive to preform. and B:most people do not understand it's meaning very well.
Mats
Date: Thu, Mar 25 2010 13:36:06

People don't understand it's meaning because it has no definition. In any case, the expanded/interrupted trick notation covers everything now.

QUOTE
And a mirrored finger spin would be simple, you could A. Do it with your left hand. witch would technically qualify it as a "mirrored" version of a normal finger spin. B. practice it and get it down =P with the right hand =P.

Let's take A as being a right handed Indexspin Normal 1.5 (spins anti-clockwise).

Do it with your left hand - Left handed Indexspin Normal 1.5 (spins clockwise)

Practice it and get it down with right hand - Right handed clockwise Indexspin 1.5

Right handed clockwise Indexspin 1.5 = Indexspin Reverse 1.5.

QUOTE
but from how I see it a mirrored trick is basically a trick with the same direction but alternate spin

So this doesn't make any sense. Direction is spin direction.

QUOTE
most people do not understand it's meaning very well.

Including yourself, it would seem.
EssenceOfLife
Date: Thu, Mar 25 2010 18:59:19

wow mats, anyways, that's basically what I was critiscizing because a direction of the trick doesnt HAVE to be spindirection, and that's what makes the trick hardandhard to visualize... This DOESNT applyto trick with a spin only asthe mirror as you said would be the same as the reverse...

There are no mirroredtricks when applied to tricks taht do not have more than"two" forms of direction, for isntance a shadow normal does not have a mirror as it's only direction isspin wise and not any in relation to the finger/hand. ( a shadow is also not a very good example however as traveling and mappingalong with reversecomplicates the issue, but itworks in that limited context.

This applies in the same manner as stalled tricks have no reverse because of the lack of movement...

The tricks aren't very common ( if at all) anyways. thanks for calrifyingthat the fingerspin is a spin only as the reading the wiki description mademe think it was starting with an around going into a spin, it now makesmore sense in the context that it isn't...

I'm not saying that I'm 100%correct, but the definition seems logical to me and logical in practice [and there are no other(simple) alternative ways to define let's say, a bakaround starting in normal position and traveling around the same path but an opposite spin direction than simply calling it a mirrored bakaround.]

For instance you could define inverse tricksas well through interuppted notation, but that would be tedious and unneccesary.

The concept of the mirroredtrick doesn't seem that difficult/compelling in my opinion, so unless I am missing something very large I understand the concept of a mirrored trick using a standard definition of what a mirror is and how itgenerally applies to pen spinning...

You are correct that spin direction is direction in most casesandthat's what wouldmake mirroredtricks in most cases extremley difficult as the direction would have to to oppose the spin direction. But this is what would create the mirrored trick. Much like an inverse around, while extremley difficult when preformed, would and shouldbe considered an inverse around.

And just a clarification, would a finger spin apply to a trick like Midbak 1.5 where it would be a midbak interupted by a finger spin for that extra rotation? or is that variable upon how the trick is preformed, aka the 1.5 ismoreambiguous andonly refers to an extra .5rotations completed "somewhere" before the trick is caught.

Oh, and in case you didn't realize, I was under a false impression of what a fingerspin was when I brought up the termfor a mirrored finger spin,and this may have gotten lost, and thatcould explain you stating that therereally isn't one, which after you explaining WHAT the finger spin is I understood. So sorry if that wasn't clear.
Pudels Kern
Date: Thu, Mar 25 2010 21:21:58

QUOTE
a direction of the trick doesnt HAVE to be spindirection

This is wrong, unless you're talking about fingerslots.
QUOTE
thanks for calrifyingthat the fingerspin is a spin only as the reading the wiki description mademe think it was starting with an around going into a spin, it now makesmore sense in the context that it isn't...

The wiki is right. Fingerspins start with a Fingeraround and Fingerspin rev start with a Fingeraround rev. Another combination is not possible without a second push because the pen changes directions so you can just use interupted trick notation instead of giving it a name.
QUOTE
For instance you could define inverse tricksas well through interuppted notation

No? How do you break down inverse Sonic or inv Shadow? Of course you can break it down into charges and fingerswitches and spins but then you could do the same with the normal versions. All I want to say is that inverse tricks are real tricks unlike the mirrored tricks you are talking about.
QUOTE
Much like an inverse around

There are no inverse Arounds.
QUOTE
And just a clarification, would a finger spin apply to a trick like Midbak 1.5 where it would be a midbak interupted by a finger spin for that extra rotation? or is that variable upon how the trick is preformed, aka the 1.5 ismoreambiguous andonly refers to an extra .5rotations completed "somewhere" before the trick is caught.

Why do you want to make it more complicated than it is? The topspin part of bakarounds 1.5+ happens on the back of the hand/fingers so it would be a backspin but who cares about this kind of nameing...
EssenceOfLife
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 03:37:11

Wait what.... I thought mats had established that the fingerspin was just the spin > _>, now i'm still confused about what a fingerspin is, and if the wiki is correct is not because (at the time I read it) it stated that the spin was in reverse...

"Normal: the pen rotates around, and spins on top of, the finger in a counter-clockwise direction (right-handed).
Reverse: the pen rotates around, and spins on top of, the finger in a clockwise direction (right-handed). "

(from the wiki)

---------------------------

Mirrored tricks are completley real =\

Tricks with direction do NOT have to be spinning in the same direction... easy example would be a "moonwalk" sonic. The pen is spinning in a normal direction however the pen is traveling in a reverse direction.

A mirrored trick is a trick preformed on the right hand that when mirrored (more conviently, preformed with the left hand) has the same direction in BOTH aspects, accordingly.

By adding the term "mirrored" you could call a charge rev 23 ~>pass rev 23-12 a Mirrored Twisted Sonic.
( a moonwalk sonic would simply be a Mirrored Sonic reverse)

These are simple examples just so that the idea of what a mirrored trick is can be more clear.

Furthermore, I believe this addition will and can aid the development of 1p2h as mirrored tricks when placed on an opposing hand are going in the direction of the normal and named combo, as I said before, mirrored tricks require both spin direction and pen direction
, things like a finger pass would not have a mirror as the mirror of a finger pass still is, a finger pass normal, much like the reverse of a stall is still a stall normal...

And I'm not trying to make it complicated i'm trying to break it down and give examples to how my previous (but apparently wrong) idea of the fingerspin, could have conflicts with regard to other tricks and also trying to explain the mechanics of a mirrored/inverse tricks with an example.

-------------------------------------------

and there are most certainly inverse arounds =O...

(quick explanation of the inverse around as I know it)
correct me if I am incorrect.

Normal around consists of two fingers I'll represent them with this O and this I the I represents the inside of each finger "touching " the pen

OI(Pen)IO

This arrow -> represents which finger it spins over

OI(Pen)->IO

for our purpose the pen spins OVER this finger (not behind it)

OI(Pen) ->IO

Now we need to clarify these fingers as we are going to make this around become inverse, one finger, OI group with be bold while the other will be in italics this is just so you can tell the difference between both fingers.

We start with an around normal

OI(pen)->IO

Let's make it an inverse around.

To do this, the pen must rotate around the other "sides" of the fingers, this is harder to visualize as it isn't as 2-d as things such as sonics.

so let's switch the fingers, keeping in mind the pen must be on the "other side"

IO(pen)->OI

Now hold on right there! that's not right! the pen isn't rotating around the same finger.
Let's fix that.( at this point the fingers are crossed.)

IO<-(pen)OI

okay that's better now the pen is rotating around the finger as it was before... but it's going the wrong direction.

IO->(pen)OI

Now that fixes that, the pen is being pushed over the Italic finger by, by the bold finger, but on the other side in regard to the normal spin.
The catch would come around full circle and be caught back in the

IO->(pen)OI

position.

This, I believe qualifies as an inverse finger around. Like an inverse sonic it is traveling in the same pen direction, same spin direction, but is going around the other side.
Pudels Kern
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 10:50:00

You don't need a modifier to describe the direction of the pen from one fingerslot to the other. Just write the starting and ending slot and the direction of the spin. That's why you don't even need the name Moonwalk Sonic. And that's why we don't use Sonic 1.5 anymore.
You also don't need names for 1p2h Hybrids because we already have a system to break them down.

QUOTE
By adding the term "mirrored" you could call a charge rev 23 ~>pass rev 23-12 a Mirrored Twisted Sonic.

And why do we need more names for Hybrids?!

I don't really understand your example of inverse arounds. It looks kinda like The first concept in this video but I'm not sure.
It seems that these concepts are just your personal idea how nameing works. But if these things actually exist then there should be videos and threads about it.
Hippo2626
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 12:19:19

I'm tired to do quotations so I'll just put my input in general. Mirroring, to me, is basically a mapped reverse of the trick (I'm basing this on the actual definition) in many occasions especially for non-hybrid tricks.
Mirrored: Lateral, inverted, same distance from mirror.
So applying mirroring into PSing on one hand and using a TA as an example, it should be a pinkyaround reverse. So a mirrored indexspin should be a pinkyspin rev.
If it's unclear or something I'll type the entire essay of my opinion another time (pretty busy these days.)

EDIT: My bad I didn't read the entire thing completely.
Inverse is a pen spinning term relating to the position and movement of a pen during certain trick variations. The modifier, "Inverse", is added to a trick variation when the pen travels along the opposite side the finger(s)s/hand than it would during the normal variation.
Reverse is a modifier that refers to the direction of the pen during a trick. Every family of tricks has a "base" trick that the family s built around. The base trick has the directional title of "Normal". The "Reverse" is the most basic variation that has the pen traveling in the opposite direction of the "Normal" trick. For example, the Thumbaround Reverse travels clockwise around the thumb, while Thumbaround Normal travels counter-clockwise.
From wiki.
An inversearound does exist but it is exactly the same as a reverse indexaround. The reverse goes in the opposite direction, the inverse goes in the same direction but switching the sides (palm to back, back to palm.) thus they are the same. However the inverse indexspin is more like a reverse index around ~ inverse indexspin (palm up.) This applies for all inverse topspin tricks take inverse shadow as an example. I think th reverse indexspin should be something like a shadow rev ~ indexaround rev. Inverses, reverses and mirroring gets very confusing when it comes to hybrids ands stuff, it's still a major grey area in PSing
For instance people take the devil sonic rev. as twisted sonic rev. ~ shadow rev.. However using the definition given by wiki and the actual definition it should actually be a shadow rev. ~ twisted sonic rev.. twisted sonic rev. ~ shadow rev. is more of a devils sonic mirror. If you look at a devils sonic through a mirrors reflection thats what it will look like.
Mats
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 13:10:09

This topic has just turned into Essence of Life trying to convince herself that mirrors exist and trying to figure out what the hell they are.
EssenceOfLife
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 13:34:09

I'm jsut trying to figure out wtf a finger spin is, and wtf you would call a finger spin with a clockwise around but a counter clockwise spin... I used the word mirror, witch historically like hippo said basically is a flipped version on the same hand ( although it is also described with the term symmetrical in that case )
to try to describe the trick and figure out what it is. If it's just a spin on the finger, none of this matters, but it seems as if this trick is actually an around followed by a .5 spin on top of the finger then the current terms wouldn't work describing a reverse spin but a normal around.

And mats, this topic is me trying to figure out what the hell fingerspins are, which, if they are as Pudels stated, what the hell a fingerspin normal with a counterclockwise spin is...

( edit: nvrm, I understand now )

Going back to Mat's first post Indexaround Normal 0.5 ~ Indexspin Reverse 1.0
Current notation makes anything else obsolete for the most part anyways. Thanks for claryfying.
Hippo2626
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 14:03:23

Now I'm getting confused slightly after thinking about it. There's a wrist movement involved right. Anyway I made a video help me see if it's right.

It might be a little hard to see though, I had to record it with my handphone.
Mats
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 19:16:47

Okay, that's really hard to see. As for wrist motion, well, there is some wrist motion required most of the time, with an around being executed with the hand at a different angle to the spin, but, there is wrist motion involved in pretty much all spins.

As for the topic of 'mirrors', it seems obvious from this thread that they are both confusing and unnecassary.