UPSB v3
Philosophy / Is there a best pen spinner?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 16:30:02
Is there a best pen spinner? Eriror is the best closest thing to best, but who is?
If there isn't, who do u think should be The best? -
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 17:26:38
I think we can't say who is the best, because each one have a style, like Eriror and Peem, each one have a diferent style and Peem is the most recent champion
so for me Eriror is one of the best spinners and he is the best in his style like Spinnerpeem, S777, but I cant chose the BEST
but I like Chadcrazy, Alan, Mystic, Eriror, ~L~, DimpS3 and others spinners too
and I like me
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Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 17:32:54
There is no "best" spinner. It varies from person to person.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 19:03:03
In some skills, there is clearly a 'best'. No-one would argue against Anthony Gatto being the best juggler in the world, for example... However, in pen spinning, for the moment, no one is this far ahead. Maybe, one day, there will be an undisputed best in pen spinning, but not at the moment.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 21:44:42
eriror definitely has some of the most technically challenging tricks down... his 2p2h is absolutely superb... but he's often overlooked for the people who do massive power tricks.
I would say the best ever, though, would have to be nhk_9 -
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 23:13:10
pyralux
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Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 23:21:47
in my opinion, x1213 has the best linkages. (his freestyle 23.5 =O)
so to me
x1213
nuff said -
Date: Fri, Mar 26 2010 23:38:40
when there's a lot of variety in one type of thing, it's hard to judge if there's actually a best
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 05:40:13
yeah, it really does vary from person to person and how they respect each other's styles
like eye-appealing
and difficulty
and speed
examples:
eye-appealing: bonkura, ayatori, pyralux..
difficulty: eriror pwns here, p-p-p-p-peem..
speed: dongza..
it depends on the person and how the person spins to determine who the best spinner is.. in their own pespective -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 07:50:21
those who were recognized as legends are the best ones.. like Bonkura - the true legend
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 09:43:07QUOTE (Chief_Snake @ Mar 27 2010, 05:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>eriror's often overlooked for the people who do massive power tricks.
i'm pretty guilty of that one myself...
discussion for the second round of UPSB torni covers most of what i say here, but yes, overall visual appeal (of powertricks, of s777/bonkura etc, of fratleym i'm-sure-fingers-dont-bend-that-way style) will trump subtle difficulties of eriror
which i think is the sad thing hereQUOTE (Enzo @ Mar 27 2010, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>those who were recognized as legends are the best ones.. like Bonkura - the true legend
and i dont want to offend bonkura/bonkura fan boys, but people who have died prematurely are way too over-rated
not saying they aren't good, but theres too much hype without them knowing much
eg/: kurt cobain, pac, lennon naybe to an extent
and most recently, MJ
yes, all of the above people are great, but especially on MJ, some people do flock because they are sheep
my mother spontaneously liked MJ enough to buy the THIS IS IT dvd, there was no mention of him before his death, apart from the occasional pedo joke by me (note: to fans and fanboys, i do acknowledge that mj is a great artist, and his music videos are especially good)
... i seem to have gone rather off topic here
best pen spinner?
i think best here, in pen spinning, means variety
s777 comes the closest in my opinion
very creative and smoothe style, but capable of doing cont busts -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 09:59:40
well i like seven and kuzu much
but still im pretty much shocked seeing aciddna1st
he spins like a beast so : ACIDDNA FTW ! -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 10:11:59
Some people seem to have missed the point of the thread. It is not 'who do you think is the best spinner?' but 'is there a best spinner?'
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 10:43:53
well to answer taht question
for ourself there is a best spinner
but for global there arent best spinner
because all people were choosing their best spinner by themself and ppl arent the same -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 10:54:27QUOTE (yudargh @ Mar 27 2010, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well to answer taht question
for ourself there is a best spinner
but for global there arent best spinner
because all people were choosing their best spinner by themself and ppl arent the same
Well, in terms of technical ability, there could very well be one best spinner. I mean, if one spinner could do all continuous tricks for longer than everyone else, won the world tournament time after time and was unbeaten in battles while coming up with new concepts and tricks all the time... I think everyone would agree they are the 'best' (in a technical sense).
Generally what people mean by 'best' is who is 'most skilled'. You seem to be thinking more about 'favourite' pen spinners. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 18:09:16QUOTE (k-ryder @ Mar 27 2010, 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i'm pretty guilty of that one myself...
discussion for the second round of UPSB torni covers most of what i say here, but yes, overall visual appeal (of powertricks, of s777/bonkura etc, of fratleym i'm-sure-fingers-dont-bend-that-way style) will trump subtle difficulties of eriror
which i think is the sad thing here
and i dont want to offend bonkura/bonkura fan boys, but people who have died prematurely are way too over-rated
not saying they aren't good, but theres too much hype without them knowing much
eg/: kurt cobain, pac, lennon naybe to an extent
and most recently, MJ
yes, all of the above people are great, but especially on MJ, some people do flock because they are sheep
my mother spontaneously liked MJ enough to buy the THIS IS IT dvd, there was no mention of him before his death, apart from the occasional pedo joke by me (note: to fans and fanboys, i do acknowledge that mj is a great artist, and his music videos are especially good)
... i seem to have gone rather off topic here
best pen spinner?
i think best here, in pen spinning, means variety
s777 comes the closest in my opinion
very creative and smoothe style, but capable of doing cont busts
I think you're confusing over-rated with blindly followed.
when people die, people do "flock to them" and like them a lot. but that doesn't mean that the people who legitimately like them "over-rate" them. most of the people legitimately are worth all the hype, they just don't get it until they die, which is a shame.
and yes, Bonkura was one of the best pen spinners to ever live. I've said that since he was alive.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 19:19:03
First we should all think, what defines a best pen spinner. Well, even before that, what makes someone a good pen spinner.
A good pen spinner should have some sort of proficiency in the following areas at least:
-Smoothness
-Difficulty
-Creativity
-Variety
-Control/Consistency
Then there is the matter of style/overall appeal, but this is such a loose category that can't really be quantified as easily as the other categories since this is based off of preference of the audience.
Soo then what makes the best pen spinner? Well, style aside, the best pen spinner should have the highest skill in all the categories above.
Now let's take some examples...
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Spinnerpeem
-pretty smooth
-high difficult, in the sense of power tricks
-not so creative compared to the highly creative pen spinners
-not so varied comparatively
-very high control/consistency
For creativity and variety, and perhaps smoothness too, he has all that stuff, but compared to some other great spinners, his material is only average. His strong points are difficulty and control, and then the other categories are just average at the 'professional' pen spinner level.
Eriror
-very smooth
-high difficulty, perhaps higher than peem, but often overlooked
-creative....but nothing that stands out a lot
-varied
-fairly high control/consistency but not at peem's level
Eriror is a much more well rounded spinner, and has strong points in every category, but unfortunately, he doesn't stand out in any one category. Someone said acid dna was the best spinner for them, and this is because of his strong busting skill probably... and that stands out for acid dna. But I think most of us can agree that acid dna is not close to being the "Best" pen spinner in the world.
s777
-very smooth
-high difficulty, but again, in a different way than both peem and eriror
-creative, stands out in this category more than peem/eriror
-varied (dunno about it compared to peem/eriror, i dont' follow s777 that much)
-i'm sure he has a good amount of control..but again, i don't know much about s777
His style that's..different.. and his ability to 2p2h puts him up there in the top pen spinners, but again, he's not strong enough in all categories to safely put him above everyone else. Plus if i remember correctly, s777 didnt make it that far in the wt09.... there's lots of pen spinners who are equally as good as him or better.
Pyralux
-veryy smooth
-yet another sort of difficulty, but perhaps not too high as more of focus is towards creativity rather than difficulty..although i'm sure his stuff is fairly difficult too
-extremely creative, more so than everyone above
-very varied as well
-i dunno about his consistency
Pyralux has smoothness, creativity, variety, (probably) control, and although his difficulty isn't as apparent as peem's and his tricks' creativity stands out more... pyralux, by these standards has a good chance of being one of the "best" spinners as well. But the thing is.... he has his form of difficulty, but he doesn't have the ability to do, say.., peem's or eriror's difficulty. He mainly only sticks with his types of tricks, which overall, loses him some variety points (but not to say his combos aren't varied, cause i'd get flamed and i'd be lying to myself if i said that haha)
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I could go on for a long time... Bonkura, supawit, baimai, seven, ponkotu, vicgotgame ...zombo lol, etc...
Everyone has a high level of skill in most of those categories; but to stand out in every category is very difficult--and then have nice style on top of that. But if someone does manage to one day be indisputably the best in EVERY category, then that will be the best pen spinner to me. But at the moment, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses (or rather, just weaker points).. even Peem, compared to other spinners.
Sooo again, I don't think there's a best spinner at the moment (at least according to my definition of a best), but perhaps one day, there will be a best like there's a best juggler in Mats example. But like Mats said, there's nobody far enough ahead at the moment to be be indisputably the best, everyone's fairly neck and neck.
And to the people who hate my long posts, sorry, but you're gonna just have to deal with it =P -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 19:39:12
Peem's linkage is very creative. No one has done things that he's done before. I'd label peem as quite a creative PSer. He pushes limits and raises the bar. People simply label him as a power tricker, but he's much more than that. He's the pen spinning world champion for a reason.
Eriror's difficulty is nowhere near peem's. 2p2h is difficult, but not as difficult as what peem does. It only seems difficult because not many people do it.
And JC, you can't be the best at everything. Trying to be, will result in a Jack of all Trades, Master of None. A Jack of all Trades does not stand out; he is not special. We respect Masters. Who cares about Jack?... Hit the road jack and never come back no more no more no more... Pardon me. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 19:46:20QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Mar 27 2010, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Peem's linkage is very creative. No one has done things that he's done before. I'd label peem as quite a creative PSer. He pushes limits and raises the bar. People simply label him as a power tricker, but he's much more than that. He's the pen spinning world champion for a reason.
Eriror's difficulty is nowhere near peem's. 2p2h is difficult, but not as difficult as what peem does. It only seems difficult because not many people do it.
And JC, you can't be the best at everything. Trying to be, will result in a Jack of all Trades, Master of None. A Jack of all Trades does not stand out; he is not special. We respect Masters. Who cares about Jack?... Hit the road jack and never come back no more no more no more... Pardon me.
Well... that's why I don't think there'll ever be a "best" anytime soon, for that reason that you gave. Anyone who tries to be the best at everything will hit the "jack of all trades, master of none" thing that you said, but I think that's what's necessary for there to be a best pen spinner... a "jack of all trades, master of all"
---and so i mean, i don't think it's that realistic to be a master of all, so i don't think there'll really be a best pen spinner... there's just too many aspects to pen spinning -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 20:11:51QUOTE (JC @ Mar 27 2010, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well... that's why I don't think there'll ever be a "best" anytime soon, for that reason that you gave. Anyone who tries to be the best at everything will hit the "jack of all trades, master of none" thing that you said, but I think that's what's necessary for there to be a best pen spinner... a "jack of all trades, master of all"
---and so i mean, i don't think it's that realistic to be a master of all, so i don't think there'll really be a best pen spinner... there's just too many aspects to pen spinning
Is not the best the person who is greater than everyone else? Surely this person exists. Is he not the best? Does he have to be the best at everything to be the best?
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 22:41:18
I don't think it is realistic to be the very best but be best at everything. For example (sorry it's always Gatto from juggling, but he's so far ahead there's no arguement for anyone else, so it is a good example), Gatto is not best at everything. Kulakov is better at 5 (and may be 6) rings and perhaps Dietz has a better 8 ball half shower. but with the exception of these couple of things, Gatto is better. That is, from hundreds of tricks, he is the best at many hundreds and just a few people surpass him in a couple. A similar situation could happen one day in PSing. It's obvious, it would seem, that if one person is best at almost everything, with only a few people (from hundreds of tricks) can match them in just one or two, t, they are best. Perhaps Mayweather from boxing could be seen something similar (best of that weight boxer, ~40 fights with no lossses). So right now, no one is, but in future, someone could be so dominant as to take nearly all tricks and all records while still reminaing creative and surely then, they would be the best.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 23:01:18QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Mar 27 2010, 08:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Peem's linkage is very creative. No one has done things that he's done before. I'd label peem as quite a creative PSer. He pushes limits and raises the bar. People simply label him as a power tricker, but he's much more than that. He's the pen spinning world champion for a reason.
Eriror's difficulty is nowhere near peem's. 2p2h is difficult, but not as difficult as what peem does. It only seems difficult because not many people do it.
And JC, you can't be the best at everything. Trying to be, will result in a Jack of all Trades, Master of None. A Jack of all Trades does not stand out; he is not special. We respect Masters. Who cares about Jack?... Hit the road jack and never come back no more no more no more... Pardon me.
Then why do people say so often that my difficulty is just as ridiculous as his? Difficulty really isn't absolute. It's relative. And just because you say his difficulty is tons higher, doesn't mean it really is. You could also look at it like this: How many people are reaching his way of difficulty? How is that compared to how many people reach the way I have my difficulty? Some things to think about.
And really? Jack of all Trades don't stand out? Then why am I still in the spotlight so often? I'm a master of virtually nothing. Smoothness, Variety, Difficulty, Control. Of course, I can walk along with nearly everything in each of these departments, but am I a master? No. There's always someone who beats me in something. Yet still, I'm being recognised as one of the world's best spinner, as shown in this topic. Doesn't that totally go against what you say?
And Spinnerpeem is doing exactly what I have always done. Expand his own things. Does what he always does, but then one step further. So what makes him totally more creative than me? Oh right. The fact his things are clear, I'm sorry. =/
But no. I don't think there's an absolute best spinner, as there are so many different styles and factors that have to be taken in account. In the end, it's mostly opinion. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 23:37:16QUOTE (Erirornal Kraione @ Mar 27 2010, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Then why do people say so often that my difficulty is just as ridiculous as his? Difficulty really isn't absolute. It's relative. And just because you say his difficulty is tons higher, doesn't mean it really is. You could also look at it like this: How many people are reaching his way of difficulty? How is that compared to how many people reach the way I have my difficulty? Some things to think about.
And really? Jack of all Trades don't stand out? Then why am I still in the spotlight so often? I'm a master of virtually nothing. Smoothness, Variety, Difficulty, Control. Of course, I can walk along with nearly everything in each of these departments, but am I a master? No. There's always someone who beats me in something. Yet still, I'm being recognised as one of the world's best spinner, as shown in this topic. Doesn't that totally go against what you say?
And Spinnerpeem is doing exactly what I have always done. Expand his own things. Does what he always does, but then one step further. So what makes him totally more creative than me? Oh right. The fact his things are clear, I'm sorry. =/
But no. I don't think there's an absolute best spinner, as there are so many different styles and factors that have to be taken in account. In the end, it's mostly opinion.
No offense, but spinnerpeem expands more than you do. And I already explained about the 2p2h deal. About the whole how many people are achieving his way of difficulty. Hundreds of PSers are copying peem. Why? Because he redefined pen spinning. He started a new trend. He saw the limits of pen spinning and breached it. Imitation is the greatest compliment and there are hundreds copying peem. It doesn't show that what he does is easy because so many people are doing, it just shows what a strong influence he's had in our pen spinning world. That's one of the reasons I see him as great spinner. Peem leaves big footsteps.
I was referring to the Jack of all Trades relatively, in a larger scale. There are always exceptions to a generalization. Plus you've had years more than 90% of the PS world to become a great Jack of All Trades.
And if you want to talk about your whole apparent vs subtle idea. Let's use an analogy. It's funner that way. Both you and peem are card makers. You design and produce cards. You like to change small details about your cards to make them special. You change the glue you use and the tape, and print it on special paper. Very subtle changes that you think will make a big difference. Peem, on the other hand, thinks just writing "Happy Birthday" on a card isn't good enough. His cards utilize voice recognition to open, sing a song while words on the card decorates itself on to the cards, lights up in a bajillion colors (some just recently unknown to man), is bulletproof and rocketproof, can survive a nuclear holocaust, and is powered by the joy you took into writing the card. I know. I know. There's a strong use of hyperbole, but you get my drift.
Before things get out of hand. Remember everyone, this is a discussion, not an argument. People, don't get all too fussy. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 23:40:04
some good discussion here, although some of it is off-topic. in particular, please refrain from turning this into "who's your favorite spinner" thread, which already exists.
right now, there is no dominating personality which can be claimed as best. in the past yes, David Weis, kam, and nhk_9 arguably interchanged the title of best spinner in the world with every video they released. -
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 08:01:59QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Mar 27 2010, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Is not the best the person who is greater than everyone else? Surely this person exists. Is he not the best? Does he have to be the best at everything to be the best?
Well yeah... but it's rather hard to determine who's better than everyone else--- One person can say peem is the best, but then another person can be like, but pyralux has such higher creativity, variety, etc... blahblahblah. Then they can argue between pyralux and peem who is better. And pyralux doesn't compete in competitions, so technically he's not better than peem, wt09 champ, but people can argue the fact that pyralux is in fact actually better if he did compete--it's a shame he doesn't.
If no single person excels in all categories, others can argue against them as being the "best" by coming up with a spinner who's better in the area that peem or eriror or whoever is lacking in. -
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 22:07:12QUOTE (JC @ Mar 28 2010, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And pyralux doesn't compete in competitions, so technically he's not better than peem, wt09 champ, but people can argue the fact that pyralux is in fact actually better if he did compete--it's a shame he doesn't.
If you think of it like that the whole thing becomes even more complicated. If peem wins a tournament, he is the best spinner of all the participants (in the eyes of the judges). He can not claim to be the absolute best spinner in the world but only the winner of a certain event (and he can only claim the title "winner of the event xyz"). Since no competition is absolute and it is always someone missing who is not interested in tournaments you can not determine a "best spinner of the world" that way.
Same goes for other any other sport, tournament or competition. There can always be someone (harder/)better/faster/stronger. -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 01:19:03
Spinnerpeem is the Best. He won the WT, Is the best (no competetion) in power tricks. He is godly. His smoothness is also good along with his speed. He lacks creativity though. But lets take baseball for example. The best player isn't the one who dives for balls and catches it bare handed, but the best player is the one who gets it done. That might have been a horrible example
The only thing he lacks is his 2p2h and his creativity. Yes I think there is a best and I think spinnerpeem is the best. Also I'm not a Peem fanboy nor is he my favorite spinner.
Also someone said they think Bonkura is overrated because he died early. I couldn't agree more. He reminds me inbetween seven and Stuhl (my opinion) and was a very good spinner. Yet he is not the "God" of penspinning, and I think is overrated. No offence to Bonkura, but him dying made him alot "better". -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 01:40:40
baseball is a game of the mind and physique, not an artform like penspinning.
And besides, even in baseball, there's no definite "best" (as far as fielding goes, which is what you used as an analogy) there's the few elite in the sport, much like there's a few people that everyone agrees are the best. And the guys in baseball that are the best in the infield are the guys that have lasers for arms that can make throws from 3rd to first while on their knees.
But let's not get off topic, I've already given my opinion on the best spinner ever... nhk_9 -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 01:52:32QUOTE (Chief_Snake @ Mar 28 2010, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>baseball is a game of the mind and physique, not an artform like penspinning.
I think this is the thing.... artforms are difficult to give a title of best too due to all the differing opinions, preferences, factors, etc... =\ -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 02:16:23QUOTE (JC @ Mar 28 2010, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think this is the thing.... artforms are difficult to give a title of best too due to all the differing opinions, preferences, factors, etc... =\
Ahhhh I think that is finally a good answer. Theres no stats or whatever, its all opinion. Although I think best is more diffuculty,exexcution,and smoothness. And favoritsm is opinions, and preference. -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 03:55:21
It's impossible to be able to single out an individual and label them "The Best Pen spinner". Pen spinning is an art form much like painting. Is there a best painter? This is impossible to say as well, however there have been painters / sculptors / artists etc. who've been labeled as being "Masters" "Geniuses" etc. which I think would be fitting for pen spinning as well. Also just as a sort of side note.... what if there was an extremely gifted spinner in terms of difficult combos, smoothness, and creativity who kept it all to himself and never made any videos or showed anybody his talents. Perhaps this un-identified spinner could be the best, and nobody would ever even know. Just an interesting thought I had lol.
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Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 10:30:41QUOTE (SFR @ Mar 29 2010, 04:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>what if there was an extremely gifted spinner in terms of difficult combos, smoothness, and creativity who kept it all to himself and never made any videos or showed anybody his talents. Perhaps this un-identified spinner could be the best, and nobody would ever even know. Just an interesting thought I had lol.
People always say this. It's stupid statement, designed in some way to 'prove' there could never be a 'best' at anything. So far as I see it, it's true until disproven. If one guy is clearly the best in pen spinning one day (like for example, as when Federer was the undisputed best tennis player at one time), they are still the best, until proven otherwise. -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 10:41:56
a spinner can be the best in one or a few aspects of pen spinning, but IMO there hasn't been anyone who is recognised to be among the top few in the world for all the aspects JC listed; in the past year or so anyway.
the aspects which each person considers more important (some focus on difficulty, others on creativity etc) will influence their decisions of who is 'better' 'overall' (if such a term is even applicable in a wider sense), so there is no 'best spinner' for the world as a whole; only the best in individuals' minds. (until some spinner arrives who is so good at everything that essentially everyone agrees on)
the factor of style is highly subjective, making the matter far more complicated ==". there is no best style, only favourite ones...
for aspects like difficulty, it is hard to argue what is more difficult across different trick families, as if one works on anything longer then skill will naturally increase more; and if spinners in the world work more on certain types of tricks, the perceived difficulty of those tricks will decrease slightly (since more people are proficient at them).
e.g are nia's and A-13X's baks harder than peem/supawit's power tricks?
among the 'best' overall are perhaps eriror, ponkotu, nia, vicgotgame, supawit127, s777, fire@fox (just a few), but for each of them it is possible to find someone who 'beats' them in certain aspects... -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 21:15:01QUOTE (i.suk.at.everything @ Mar 29 2010, 05:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>a spinner can be the best in one or a few aspects of pen spinning, but IMO there hasn't been anyone who is recognised to be among the top few in the world for all the aspects JC listed; in the past year or so anyway.
the aspects which each person considers more important (some focus on difficulty, others on creativity etc) will influence their decisions of who is 'better' 'overall' (if such a term is even applicable in a wider sense), so there is no 'best spinner' for the world as a whole; only the best in individuals' minds. (until some spinner arrives who is so good at everything that essentially everyone agrees on)
the factor of style is highly subjective, making the matter far more complicated ==". there is no best style, only favourite ones...
for aspects like difficulty, it is hard to argue what is more difficult across different trick families, as if one works on anything longer then skill will naturally increase more; and if spinners in the world work more on certain types of tricks, the perceived difficulty of those tricks will decrease slightly (since more people are proficient at them).
e.g are nia's and A-13X's baks harder than peem/supawit's power tricks?
among the 'best' overall are perhaps eriror, ponkotu, nia, vicgotgame, supawit127, s777, fire@fox (just a few), but for each of them it is possible to find someone who 'beats' them in certain aspects...
Dont forget Peem, Seven, Kuzu, and Dongza
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Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 21:25:16QUOTE (Kirby @ Mar 29 2010, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Dont forget Peem, Seven, Kuzu, and Dongza
And JC
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Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 01:41:21
They will be best at what they do, but not among all the fields of penspinning.
ie: As far as I know/have seen, Peem couldn't do things that s777 can, and vice versa. Completely different.
I saw it like comparing Mozart to The Beatles, really. They're both technically music, but in all honesty, hugely different. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 02:40:39
PS is branching out into many different forms. It's hard to say, since most spinners "specialize" in something, whether it be in variety, control, difficulty, or appeal (or more!)
@JC: s777 going out early in the tournament doesn't really mean much besides he got an unlucky matchup with peem in round 2. especially judging from the reactions of people from the results, that battle could've gone both ways.
I agree with LITS about peem. The best spinners should be pushing the limits of PS. Peem's doing it in his own way, pyralux in another, and stuhl in his own fashion. (more spinners too, but again, i can't talk about every one of them)
And wherever Kirby may be:QUOTEI think spinnerpeem is the best. Also I'm not a Peem fanboy nor is he my favorite spinner.
elaborate please -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 04:03:27QUOTE (hoiboy @ Mar 29 2010, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>@JC: s777 going out early in the tournament doesn't really mean much besides he got an unlucky matchup with peem in round 2. especially judging from the reactions of people from the results, that battle could've gone both ways.
I see i see.. i forgot who he had faced -
Date: Sat, Apr 10 2010 09:04:38
I like supawit127,,maybe he spin by left hands like me,and he's air is very good
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Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 21:57:46QUOTE (JC @ Mar 28 2010, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think this is the thing.... artforms are difficult to give a title of best too due to all the differing opinions, preferences, factors, etc... =\
OK I've been thinking about this alot and I agree penspinning is artform. But if there isn't a best spinner how do we have tornaments. If there is no best spinner how do we pick the winner of the WT. I think there is a "best" spinner. The person needs to be good in multiple catagories of spinning (not just diffuculty and smoothness), that is why I think Spinnerpeem is not the best spinner (even though he won the world tournament) You need somone who can do at least pretty well in every catagory or aspect of spinning.
Sorry for kind of reviving this thread.
EDIT: I think most people have already kind of said what I just did
and at Hoiboy sorry about the Peem thing I totally changed me veiw about him. -
Date: Wed, Apr 21 2010 03:26:55QUOTE (Kirby @ Apr 20 2010, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>OK I've been thinking about this alot and I agree penspinning is artform. But if there isn't a best spinner how do we have tornaments. If there is no best spinner how do we pick the winner of the WT. I think there is a "best" spinner. The person needs to be good in multiple catagories of spinning (not just diffuculty and smoothness), that is why I think Spinnerpeem is not the best spinner (even though he won the world tournament) You need somone who can do at least pretty well in every catagory or aspect of spinning.
Sorry for kind of reviving this thread.
EDIT: I think most people have already kind of said what I just did
and at Hoiboy sorry about the Peem thing I totally changed me veiw about him.
The winner of a battle is not the better spinner, it's the spinner with the better combo (in the eyes of the judges of course, but ideally the judges should pick the better combo). -
Date: Wed, Apr 21 2010 04:45:44
a tournament determines the spinner who won the most battles according to the criteria.
theres no guarantee the criteria reflects superiority in pen spinning in general -
Date: Wed, Apr 21 2010 07:20:04
Pen spinning, like art. You may like oil paintings or sketches both which take much skill and produce beautiful images. Your favorite will be in preference.
I believe that there are so many great spinners these days which each branch out from their own specialities. Eriror - Subtle linkages, S777 - Creativity and unique finger control, Peem - Power and smoothness, kUzu - style and linkages. The list can go on for ages but the point I am getting at here is that they are great in the eyes of the right person.
As much as I say this, I think the most important aspects for spinnning are style, linkages and power. ;p -
Date: Wed, Apr 21 2010 19:54:31QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 20 2010, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>a tournament determines the spinner who won the most battles according to the criteria.
theres no guarantee the criteria reflects superiority in pen spinning in general
But what about like UPSB's tournament? There is no criteria, it's just who spins the best. Right?QUOTE (Tushix @ Apr 21 2010, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As much as I say this, I think the most important aspects for spinnning are style, linkages and power. ;p
Smoothness is also very very important in pen spinning. -
Date: Wed, Apr 21 2010 23:27:25
Everyone is over analyzing the question the answer is simply
Yes. -
Date: Thu, Apr 22 2010 03:16:38
I agree with EssenceOfLife. Someone has to be the best; it's just impossible to determine who.
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Date: Thu, Apr 22 2010 04:40:17QUOTE (EssenceOfLife @ Apr 21 2010, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Everyone is over analyzing the question the answer is simply
Yes.QUOTE (Malch @ Apr 21 2010, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I agree with EssenceOfLife. Someone has to be the best; it's just impossible to determine who.
Let's take a look at this a little differently.
A pen spinner is like money; some have more value than others.
In real life, money only has a certain value cause we all can agree that they do. A $10 can buy 10 apples only because we all can agree that $10 is worth 10 apples.
But okay, what if we all think that this $X bill has a different value...which is where opinions come in like in preference of style and such. Then some of us will think that this $X can get 8 apples, and others will think it can get 12 apples. While some others think that $Y can get 7 apples, but then some others think that $Y can get 14 apples.
Then once opinions differ and people rank spinners differently according to their own opinions, then who is the best. A $100 is only worth more than all the other dollar bills because we can all agree that it does. If we can't all agree that a spinner is the best, then we can't say that there is a best spinner.
So Malch, yeah, it's impossible to determine as you said, and it's impossible because perhaps there isnt' a best spinner in everyone's eyes.
Spinnerpeem became the best in the judges eyes, who are supposedly very knowledgeable and experienced spinners...but the world wasn't the judge, just that group of judges. Peem may be the official "best", but we really cant' say for sure that he is. -
Date: Thu, Apr 22 2010 12:35:27QUOTE (JC @ Apr 22 2010, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So Malch, yeah, it's impossible to determine as you said, and it's impossible because perhaps there isnt' a best spinner in everyone's eyes.
Spinnerpeem became the best in the judges eyes, who are supposedly very knowledgeable and experienced spinners...but the world wasn't the judge, just that group of judges. Peem may be the official "best", but we really cant' say for sure that he is.
What if the entire world was the judge, and every pen spinner in the world participated in the competition? Someone would come out as the winner, and that person would be the best based on the judging system used. You can never say that one judging system is better than another, but it's also impossible to say what definitively makes a spinner "good." You also can't guarantee that the judges would be accurate. These problems are truly impossible to get around, but judging the quality of any spinner or combo has these same problems, and we agree to overlook the them. If spinnerpeem's R6 combo can be considered better than Minwoo's, then one spinner could be considered better than the rest when judged by the entire world.
If a spinner's skill was determined entirely by difficulty and consistency, it's easy to see that someone could be the best. Imagine if all the non-spinners in the world started pen spinning. One half of the world did so with the goal of doing the same tricks as Eriror with his level of consistency, and the other half did so with the goal of doing Peem's tricks with his level of consistency. One half of the world would inevitably take more hours to get to the given level of difficulty and consistency, and the spinner they were following would be definitively better than the other in terms of difficulty and consistency. If we paired up every spinner this way, one spinner would definitively be the best in terms of difficulty and consistency. That spinner exists. Factors like smoothness, creativity, and even variety are much more subjective, and its possible that the definition for what determines creativity is just as shaky as the definition for what makes a spinner "good." It's also impossible to say how heavily each of the criteria should be weighed, but in certain hypothetical situations, agreement can be reached. -
Date: Thu, Apr 22 2010 18:02:34
If the world was the judge, everyone in the world could never come to an agreement that one person is the best.
There might be a majority of votes for a person in a worldwide tournament... say 60%, but 40% will still say spinner B is better than Peem or something.
In the WT09, Peem only won by 1 point. I believe zombo said in the podcast that he had given minwoo a 1 pt victory over peem, but the rest of the judges believed peem had a 1 point advantage. i think it was like a 1/~190 point advantage.... that's a really small margin to win by
and if we try to figure out the winner by tournament system, yes, there will be a single winner coming out, but they might've won by such a small margin that it all really just depended on who you chose as the judges -- and again, if you chose the world to be the judge, what if 1/2 the world thought minwoo should win, and the other 1/2 thought peem should win?
sometimes things are just too close, and have too many variables to jugdge
--certainly we can judge by difficulty, creativity (this one's a little shakey as you, malch, has said), smoothness, variety, etc..., but as an overall spinner, we can't really say who's the best.. everyone has a different "best" in their eyes
with that said though lol, i think peem deserved to win wt11, but as for whether or not he's the best... that could be debatable lol--just depends on what you prioritize more (difficulty, creativity, variety, etc) -
Date: Thu, Apr 22 2010 19:11:04
Ok guys, let's look at it this way: Penspinning is subjective. You are good at penspinning, by penspinning well (which is clearly circular).
Unlike something like golf, where you are better by doing something defined (getting the ball into the hole in less strokes).
So, by the very nature, there can be opinions on who is better, but it can't be objectively defined.
The only way one person can OBJECTIVELY be the best penspinner, is if he/she could literally do everything everyone else could do, in the exact same way, PLUS more things that only they could do. In ANY other case, someone's preference could be for the other person. -
Date: Fri, Apr 23 2010 08:02:12
I don't like the idea of using the entire world as a judge.
Say we used the entire USA as a judge and we asked "What do you think is the best book ever written?" I bet you Twilight would win. -
Date: Sat, Apr 24 2010 02:09:02QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Apr 23 2010, 04:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I don't like the idea of using the entire world as a judge.
Say we used the entire USA as a judge and we asked "What do you think is the best book ever written?" I bet you Twilight would win.
thats not a good comparison...
1) Novels is a much larger field than pen spinning
2) The US population in general is not an expert or even amateur in novels. So their opinion is uninformed. -
Date: Sun, Apr 25 2010 02:34:01
I admit that pen spinning is subjective, and that makes it impossible to judge with 100% objectivity, but we tend to avoid the subjective aspects of pen spinning when trying to determine the best spinner/combo. Difficulty and consistency are essentially objective, as I showed in my previous post.
Creativity could also be viewed objectively: the most creative spinner is the one that has come up with the most concepts, and the most original concepts. I should probably reassert that it is impossible to determine which concepts people have come up with by themselves. I did Fl Sonic p4-12 before seeing it in a video (at least I don't think I saw it before doing it) and that would give me creativity points even though I wasn't the first.
How original the concepts are is even more impossible to determine. If everyone in the world (sorry if this is redundant) learned to spin at the same level as Eriror before he came up with IPBA Rev, and watch all the same videos in the process, a certain percentage of the people would come up with that concept in a certain amount of time. The number of people combined with the average amount of time would show how much creativity Eriror demonstrated in coming up with the IPBA Rev. The problem with this is that now there are 3 different factors determining creativity (number of concepts, time each concept took to come up with by the entire world in said hypothetical situation, and percentage of people in the world who actually came up with the concept in the hypothetical situation), and there's no way of saying how much each factor should be weighed to determine overall creativity. These 3 concrete factors probably aren't even enough to represent overall creativity, and we still don't know how much creativity itself should be weighed.
JC said earlier that best pen spinner in the world would have to be considered the best by almost everyone. Overall agreement would have to be reached. However if the data from the hypothetical situations I've been mentioning (and a bunch of hypothetical situations that I haven't mentioned) were available, I believe it would be quite clear who the best spinner is, or at least clear enough for the pen spinning community to reach overall agreement. It is possible that no matter how much data we had, we wouldn't be able to reach a consensus, so I admit there's a slight possibility that there isn't a best spinner.