UPSB v3
Serious Discussion / Pirates
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 06:03:41
does watching something, listening to something, or downloading something that we didn't pay for has any justification?
after watching http://www.ninjavideo.net/video/14665
i feel somewhat better about myself. i feel less guilty about what i do on the daily. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 06:17:20
can you link me to the same vid on youtube? i cant view that on ninjavid
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Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 17:10:56
to view the vid, u have to oppen the ninja applet. which is located on top of the vid. its in red. after u open it u have to click allow.
or download from http://rapidshare.com/files/166694276/THE_...O_MANIFESTO.mp3
this is a must listen podcast for everyone who has an opinion on why pirates do what they do. or anyone has an opinion on the entertainment industry. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 17:28:56
I personally would never download/steal anything that is the creators main/only source of profit from it.
Meaning mainly, books. Book sales are the author's main source of money from it.
Music profits come from concerts/ads/endorsements, Movies come from the same thing, TV from commercials, so I regularly download those. No matter how much I want a book, I always buy it or go to the library -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 21:34:25QUOTE (strat1227 @ Mar 27 2010, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I personally would never download/steal anything that is the creators main/only source of profit from it.
Meaning mainly, books. Book sales are the author's main source of money from it.
Music profits come from concerts/ads/endorsements, Movies come from the same thing, TV from commercials, so I regularly download those. No matter how much I want a book, I always buy it or go to the library
Same.
There is really no defense for stealing music/movies other than the reality that those who would profit had you legitimately bought said item, are already getting significantly overpaid.
Authors on the other hand, are almost always very underpaid, and if you want them to continue to produce their work, you had better pay for it. The kindle makes buying books so easy anyways, its one of those rare cases where trying to find a pirated version would take more work anyways lol.
This also holds true for many minor artists. Tim Minchin for example, one of my favorite musicians, is a pretty small time guy who probably isn't making loads of money. I do steal his work for the sake of getting it before its release or if I would otherwise need to buy something overseas, but I do pay for legit pieces of his work on itunes occasionally (which sucks because I don't use itunes....) because I think he deserves a reasonable profit and I want him to continue his work. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 22:32:55
Music would make much more profit were it not for all the illegal downloads, the same goes for movies. My younger, more stupid self, would have downloaded anyway, but I don't download what I don't bought already anymore...
It is killing off the industries. -
Date: Sat, Mar 27 2010 23:03:06QUOTE (Mats @ Mar 27 2010, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Music would make much more profit were it not for all the illegal downloads, the same goes for movies. My younger, more stupid self, would have downloaded anyway, but I don't download what I don't bought already anymore...
It is killing off the industries.
Its killing the industry for the artists who need it. As South Park so satirically put it, I don't think any of the major stars are really going to be fretting over not being able to buy another private island. -
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 02:17:47
i personally would never buy music, even if i couldn't illegally get it
i've never bought a cd in my life, even before limewire/torrents started. if i didn't have music on my mp3 player, i'd listen to radio
i mean i know it's not a legitimate defense, but i'm not hurting the industry, they're not losing anything because i wouldn't buy anyway -
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 14:18:56
I feel so guilty now. I downloadedsomanysongs off torrents/megaupload/rapidshare/etc.
Though I buy album from favorite bands. -
Date: Sun, Mar 28 2010 17:32:10
dark angel, listen to the podcast u wont anymore. i agree with strat, i would never buy music even if the option of torrenting was gone.
a dollar for a song isnt that much, but when u add it all up. u could easily spend 3 thousand dollars on songs.
for movies. i do go and watch them and pay 10 dollars, but after the movie ends i hop to another movie. i wouldnt want to really pay 10 dollars for a film that has the same ol' usual plot.
then there's programs and software for pc. omg im a torrent these so much.... i'm planning to stop after i get a job and have enough money to actually afford them. -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 00:20:28QUOTE (VendettaBF @ Mar 28 2010, 01:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>then there's programs and software for pc. omg im a torrent these so much.... i'm planning to stop after i get a job and have enough money to actually afford them.
depends on the program. things like photoshop, video editing, etc they make like 98% of their profit from companies, private ownership is like nothing to them, as long as the companies still buy and use it. so i'd never pay the absurd amounts for that -
Date: Mon, Mar 29 2010 10:51:22QUOTE (Sadistic @ Mar 28 2010, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Its killing the industry for the artists who need it.
And there are many of them.
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Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 07:15:22QUOTE (Mats @ Mar 29 2010, 06:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And there are many of them.
But there music is much less pirated...I can hardly even FIND Tim Minchin..... -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 07:48:49QUOTE (strat1227 @ Mar 27 2010, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i personally would never buy music, even if i couldn't illegally get it
i've never bought a cd in my life, even before limewire/torrents started. if i didn't have music on my mp3 player, i'd listen to radio
i mean i know it's not a legitimate defense, but i'm not hurting the industry, they're not losing anything because i wouldn't buy anyway
i believe it IS a legitimate defense. i feel the same; i would never BUY music, even if i didn't have the option to obtain it illegally. and as it isn't a physical item needed to be produced, i dont feel that my downloading hurts the artists at all -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 11:34:00QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Mar 30 2010, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i believe it IS a legitimate defense. i feel the same; i would never BUY music, even if i didn't have the option to obtain it illegally. and as it isn't a physical item needed to be produced, i dont feel that my downloading hurts the artists at all
Man, you guys are really young and stupid.
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Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 13:38:05
You're entitled to your opinion, but trying to make your point more valid by insulting others isn't an acceptable approach.
EDIT: Also for what it's worth @Shadow, I don't understand how it being a physical item or not changes anything, it still costs money to produce whether it's physical or digital. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 13:41:35
What about the fact that it's illegal...
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Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 13:59:54
Argument from authority is a logical fallacy. Just because the government says it's wrong doesn't mean we shouldn't try to determine for ourselves.
If we just blindly followed the laws and didn't question the government could get away with grave injustices. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:14:54
Well I mean, I'm not going to be buying a diamond ring, but going around stealing them is probably going to hurt whoever is making them. I also didn't come up with the general theory of relativity, but I bet stealing that from Einstein would have hurt him. You guys just think you can go around stealing stuff and everything will be fine. If it's an object, or an idea, it makes no difference. That, is why I'm saying you guys are young and stupid.
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Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:23:42
Again, the insults aren't appreciated.
As to your argument, ALL of them are false analogies because in all of those cases taking the object would prevent someone else from having it. If I took a diamond, the owner couldn't sell it to someone else, so they lose value. If I take the theory of relativity, Einstein can't patent it so he loses prestige and value.
If I take a CD from the internet, the artist can STILL sell it and make their money.
So while you're entitled to your opinion, none of the reasoning you just gave is valid. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:29:16
Even though the major artist aren't affected that much, its still stealing and stealing is wrong. But that's just my opinion.
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Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:43:41QUOTEAgain, the insults aren't appreciated.
Your immorality isn't appreciated. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:44:24
Morality is individual.
EDIT: Slightly more on topic, I listened to the podcast you posted, and it's more than a tad bit too "revolutionist" for me. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:47:04QUOTE (strat1227 @ Mar 30 2010, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Morality is individual.
Theft is immoral in all cultures. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:51:55
I didn't say cultural.
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Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 14:55:58QUOTE (strat1227 @ Mar 30 2010, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I didn't say cultural.
A culture is made up of individuals. -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 15:00:37
Lol, logical fallacy much? So you're saying everyone within a culture has to agree?
Again, I find it noteworthy that after I invalidate your entire previous post about "stealing" diamonds and CD's, you resort to personal attacks on my morals. (Which again, are my own, and not my culture's) -
Date: Tue, Mar 30 2010 15:06:37QUOTE (strat1227 @ Mar 30 2010, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Again, I find it noteworthy
Weird, I don't.QUOTEthat after I invalidate your entire previous post about "stealing" diamonds and CD's
Actually, it was about stealing diamonds and the theory of general relativity.QUOTEyou resort to personal attacks on my morals.
... You're the only one complaining about this. -
Date: Wed, Mar 31 2010 00:58:23QUOTE (Mats @ Mar 30 2010, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>... You're the only one complaining about this.
Actually Mats, your rhetorical attacks on people are not uncommon and not in the least appreciated. I personally know multiple people that find your attitude arrogant and sometimes rude. -
Date: Wed, Mar 31 2010 10:49:09
IMO, if someone produces something that has some value, and they wish to charge for you to have the right to use/own that something, then you not paying for it is wrong. We are by no means forced to consume these products, and they are not necessary for our survival. We can easily for go them if we wish (and we have the will power to do so) and so you can't really ever say that it is right.
I suppose that there are varying degrees of 'wrong', which is where the argument lies. If I steal an apple from a poor person who has only one apple, then that is different to stealing from a rich person with many apples.
While we try to justify stealing music for whatever reason, this seems like it is mostly to make us feel better about what we're doing. It is still wrong. There are cases where it could be morally justifiable, like if the record companies were secretly murdering people living in poverty to produce the albums (lol, it's sort of possible), stealing from them could be considered ok. As far as I am aware, what record companies do follows the law and so there isn't any actual reason for us to steal from them.
(I download music, I just do so with the knowledge that what I am doing is wrong) -
Date: Wed, Mar 31 2010 12:21:15QUOTE (Sadistic @ Mar 31 2010, 01:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Actually Mats, your rhetorical attacks on people are not uncommon and not in the least appreciated.
Double negative
QUOTEI personally know multiple people that find your attitude arrogant and sometimes rude.
Names! -
Date: Thu, Apr 1 2010 00:57:43QUOTE (Mats @ Mar 31 2010, 07:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Double negative
Yes, a very commonly used one =).QUOTE (Mats @ Mar 31 2010, 07:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Names!
I have not asked their permission to release them, and I don't plan on asking them. If you choose to not believe that I'm telling you the truth, you would be doing yourself the disservice of not recognizing your attitude as antagonizing. I'm not trying to insult you Mats, but you honestly talk in a way that comes off as rude, whether or not you intended that. -
Date: Thu, Apr 1 2010 20:38:59
ah, but "not uncommon" and "common" have distinctly different meanings
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Date: Fri, Apr 2 2010 02:11:44
im one of them mats. ur abit of an ass. you, to my perspective, don't accept others' opinion on this subject. and when someone contradicts your analogies like strat did, you do a red herring. which basically means you chhange the subject.
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Date: Fri, Apr 2 2010 05:02:32
forget arguing with Mats the guy can be stubborn as a pain in the ass
i pretty much download out of necessity, subbed animes dont get licensed and produced right away, for music I actually pay for the downloads of obscure composers cuz I can't find it anywhere else...QUOTETheft is immoral in all cultures.
lol in china nobody cares about copyright, bootleg everything and im chinese therefore if you appeal to moral relativism i can steal media! -
Date: Fri, Apr 2 2010 06:26:30QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 2 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>forget arguing with Mats the guy can be stubborn as a pain in the ass
The great Zombo has spoken! Enough with the disputes.
I would say it's not stealing. It's the same as you bought the CD's and lent it to friends who burnt copies for themselves just in a different form. -
Date: Fri, Apr 2 2010 06:51:07
Alot of the bands i listen to have actually come out and said that if it werent for pirating, they would never be as big as they are.
EX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4AuE5osuOQ...feature=related
on another note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCADfZD-eg -
Date: Mon, Apr 26 2010 16:46:34QUOTE (Pencell @ Apr 2 2010, 02:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Alot of the bands i listen to have actually come out and said that if it werent for pirating, they would never be as big as they are.
EX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4AuE5osuOQ...feature=related
on another note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCADfZD-eg
I've found that the case with many things. People don't want to pay for things if they aren't sure what it is they're paying for, or if they aren't sure if they'll actually like it. Many people I know pirate games to try them like a demo, and buy them if they like the game, or just delete everything if they don't like it. Not everyone has bad intentions of just stealing something because they can't be bothered to pay. Some people take music and games because they don't -have- the money. One of my friends barely gets by with food (and steals wifi from her neighbors) and stuff.
I'm not saying it's right; I'm saying that, in -certain situations-, it can benefit the owners of the thing being stolen, or may be the only option for some.
For me, I have the money, so (for the most part) I buy all my music, PC programs and games. Some things are also hard to find... So I get them online. -
Date: Mon, Apr 26 2010 17:15:53
Boils down to the particular situation for me.
Music: I'm not going to pay for something I don't like. Simple as that. If I see a new band that I haven't heard of in a store and I want to check them out I'll go and download the album first. If I like it I'll go back and buy it.
There's a difference between supporting the industry and supporting the artists morally (IMO). If I like an artist I'll gladly buy their stuff to support them. If I hate an artist then I'm only feeding the company that put them out. That's simply how I see it.
Movies: Don't care, most of them suck nowadays.
Books: I always buy books or use a library regardless.
Applications: How many people have $1,600 laying around to buy a fucking CS5 suite? If you're going into the profession then yes buy the programs, but for a typical user it's stupid investment to do something simple like edit a photo past Paint shop pro garbage.
Games: I always buy games. Never have to worry about cracks, patches, bypasses, no online connectivity outside of hacked servers, etc.
(Exception being my PSP because I refuse to give sony ONE CENT OF MY MONEY. I bought my PSP from craigslist. No sony.) -
Date: Thu, Jun 10 2010 02:33:26
if i were to buy music, id get CD's because of the art and it has some meaning. however, im not a very patient person, and dont like waiting for my music to ship for me. so therefore, i dont buy CD's and just download em off anywhere. i know, not a legit justification, just mah view