UPSB v3
Board Comments / Stop the religious bigotry
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Date: Thu, Dec 6 2007 19:09:12
<--Link Removed-->
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=2501
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=2500
What the fuck is up with making fun of religion and religious figures these days?? We need to draw a line, moderators...what I cannot accept is that ZOMBO himself condones such bigotry until a report is made, and not only did he wait until I reported the threads in question but apparently moderator-member confidentiality is allowed to be breached when it comes to reporting such issues:QUOTE (Zombo @ Dec 5 2007, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>in before kensai requests lock.QUOTE (Zombo @ Dec 5 2007, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>kensai requests lock, sorry! blame him.
Wait a minute, how did he know I was going to report the thread in first place? It's because I reported a similar one in UCPSB, where appropriate action was taken. So what, since everyone else is flippant about making fun of Christianity even the root admin's jumping on the bandwagon instead of doing what's right? It doesn't matter what stance you take on the issue of religion (although it's apparently obvious now what it is), flaming is flaming, and the cases I have highlighted above are NOT instances of religious discussion.
Then again it looks like management of this board has gone to hell (pun not intended), so I'm expecting noncommittal replies related to my lack of a sense of humour (not considering that I am SERIOUSLY OFFENDED) and empty promises about 'next time'.
So just tell me one honest thing, won't you moderators? Is letting such decisions by a senior mod/admin part of your job scope? -
Date: Thu, Dec 6 2007 19:47:12
Are you truly christian religious? I've never noticed anything 'till these threads..
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Date: Thu, Dec 6 2007 19:52:11
Hey dude calm down,
First of all my two messages are just poking fun at you, in the same way I call you Mak or whatever. If you can't see that I'm not being serious, then you need to loosen up. This is the Internet, there is NO CERTAIN WAY you can tell if a person is joking or not because you can't hear that person talk, so you can't discern his tone. In case of doubt, it's always better, for your sanity, to assume they're not being serious. FYI I am NEVER serious in the spammer's bin, my attitude there is totally different there than from the rest of the board.
Second, I don't think there's a big taboo associated with religion in humor, as much as it is forbidden for a white man to say the N word, for instance. Look around you, people make fun of religion all the time, it's somehow part of society. Somehow it has been accepted that religious humor is acceptable. What about terrorism in humor, seems like it's accepted as well. Or what about violence in videogames, depiction of WW2 in films and movies. There's a grey area. I think you need to pick your fights here, there is no reason for such a big outburst. You must also realize the cultural differences between the members of this board.
Third, have you even read those threads. I understand the last two have crude humor so I locked them, but the first one has actually some relevant discussion on religion. Sure there are some critiques of religion, but does that mean even criticism of religion is offensive? That implies censorship.
Fourth of all, you have to make the distinction between threads that are ill-intentioned and ones that are not serious. Can you seriously tell me with a straight face, that the persons posting in those threads have publicly expressed HATE and unjustified bashing of christianity? I think not. The religious context was merely used as a support for humor, anything could have done, it's just that those figures are well-known.
Finally, we're talking about the spammer's bin. Flaming is moderated when it's directed against someone, which is not the case here. Maybe you take religion seriously, but think about others. What about the person that takes homosexuality and pedophily seriously, should we lock your thread, then? What about this one, humor on muslims (link)? What about this one; it used racism as a basis for humor, just like the threads you pointed out did for religion. What about using politics for humor, why should that be allowed? (link) What about all your disturbing sexual topics for no random reason? What about talking about death (it IS taboo in certain cultures), should that be allowed?
Where do we draw the line? Should we lock all sexual, crude humor, religious topics? That's fine by me, but would other members agree? It's the spammer's bin, the supposedly censor-free forum. You have to understand that you might find some things offensive, just like there are some things that others find offensive, but that you don't. It's a question of compromise, it cannot always work in your favor. You got to think wider; you either not take anything for serious and not let it affect you (why should it affect you anyway?) or you remove all that is trash and limit everybody's freedom in order not to offend one another.
I think you're making a big deal out of this but if the consensus is to lock all religious threads, then that's fine and we'll rectify our policy. But just so you know, THIS ANNOUNCEMENT clearly outlines the current moderation policy. And then when someone complains about your sexist threads, we'll ban them too. Everytime a subject becomes sensitive to even ONE person, we'll ban it.
And finally when someone complains that the Spammer's Bin is not free anymore, that it's moderated like crazy, then what do we do? We'll have a real problem. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2007 02:08:28QUOTEFirst of all my two messages are just poking fun at you, in the same way I call you Mak or whatever. If you can't see that I'm not being serious, then you need to loosen up. This is the Internet, there is NO CERTAIN WAY you can tell if a person is joking or not because you can't hear that person talk, so you can't discern his tone. In case of doubt, it's always better, for your sanity, to assume they're not being serious. FYI I am NEVER serious in the spammer's bin, my attitude there is totally different there than from the rest of the board.Poking fun at me? I don't think it's just me, it's my religious stance as well. And how many times do I have to reiterate that my points before I get your attention in a big thread like this? So of course I know you're not being serious, because that's the whole point of it, isn't it - your indifference and insensitivity to others' religious beliefs.QUOTESecond, I don't think there's a big taboo associated with religion in humor, as much as it is forbidden for a white man to say the N word, for instance. Look around you, people make fun of religion all the time, it's somehow part of society. Somehow it has been accepted that religious humor is acceptable. What about terrorism in humor, seems like it's accepted as well. Or what about violence in videogames, depiction of WW2 in films and movies. There's a grey area. I think you need to pick your fights here, there is no reason for such a big outburst. You must also realize the cultural differences between the members of this board.I see the occasional (maybe more than occasional..) poke at religion, but since my UCPSB report I've come to live with it. But there's a world of difference between TWO threads that make a mockery of a religious figure and the occasional off-handed religious joke. Please understand that my 'fight to pick', so to speak is not with the people that created or participated in the offending threads, but with the apparent indifference of the moderating team and their disregard for others' religious beliefs. I made note of this in my first post; this has ALWAYS been about the moderators, not the members. Having been a forum member for so long I definitely understand how the internet works - pretty much anything goes. But when it comes to making things right, only a few people can do that - the moderators.
I did not bother to flame back at the people involved in those threads. Instead I trusted the moderators to deal with it. But Zombo, you were the one who read my report back on UCPSB so you of all people should know which people are sensitive to what taboo. This was evident when you practically called me out to report the thread - I would've reported it quietly but no, you had to ridicule me and my faith. Not only that, but when I posted about your insensitivity soon after, you gave a completely flippant reply. I honestly can't understand how anyone would find that humorous at all.QUOTEThird, have you even read those threads. I understand the last two have crude humor so I locked them, but the first one has actually some relevant discussion on religion. Sure there are some critiques of religion, but does that mean even criticism of religion is offensive? That implies censorship.Yes I have, and the reason why I mentioned it was because I felt that the creation of the thread itself was thinly-veiled mockery of the Christian belief instead of provoking serious discussion. And IMO, in regards to religious criticism on this board, I think that serious discussion on religion is long past its due date. Maybe there are a few worthy posts in there, but of it is just poking fun of religion. But fine, I'll leave it out of this.QUOTEFourth of all, you have to make the distinction between threads that are ill-intentioned and ones that are not serious. Can you seriously tell me with a straight face, that the persons posting in those threads have publicly expressed HATE and unjustified bashing of christianity? I think not. The religious context was merely used as a support for humor, anything could have done, it's just that those figures are well-known.Like I said, this is not the issue. See above.QUOTEFinally, we're talking about the spammer's bin. Flaming is moderated when it's directed against someone, which is not the case here. Maybe you take religion seriously, but think about others. What about the person that takes homosexuality and pedophily seriously, should we lock your thread, then? What about this one, humor on muslims (link)? What about this one; it used racism as a basis for humor, just like the threads you pointed out did for religion. What about using politics for humor, why should that be allowed? (link) What about all your disturbing sexual topics for no random reason? What about talking about death (it IS taboo in certain cultures), should that be allowed?You're right about the grey area, so there's only one logical way to determine what is offensive to whom - by getting feedback from the members themselves. If anyone reports my threads because he/she feels that I have crossed a line, then by all means let me know and I'll stop posting such threads. I'm not an unreasonable person, so just tell me. I just don't have all the answers you know.
And as for you, if you already know someone's sensitive about a certain topic, then please respect that and don't ridicule them for it before locking the respective thread.QUOTEWhere do we draw the line? Should we lock all sexual, crude humor, religious topics? That's fine by me, but would other members agree? It's the spammer's bin, the supposedly censor-free forum. You have to understand that you might find some things offensive, just like there are some things that others find offensive, but that you don't. It's a question of compromise, it cannot always work in your favor. You got to think wider; you either not take anything for serious and not let it affect you (why should it affect you anyway?) or you remove all that is trash and limit everybody's freedom in order not to offend one another.I wouldn't just lump 'sexual, crude humour, religious topics' into fixed criteria for the trash bin. Feedback and discretion is key here; as ambiguous an approach as the latter sounds, it would help if the mods could discuss this matter more thoroughly among themselves.
HOWEVER, seeing as this is the first major comment of its kind, it seems to me that most people don't really mind those topics or are unwilling to speak up...so people, if you're majorly offended by something, by all means report it...
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To recap,
1)Who I'm NOT taking issue with are the members who posted in those threads I linked in the OP.
2)What I AM taking issue with here is Zombo, and by extension the moderating team's insensitivity and disregard for my religion.
3)I condone freedom of speech, but I also believe in a justly moderated system, and that it is the job of the moderators to keep the board in order, not the members.
4)Member feedback and moderators' discretion determines which subjects are taboo and to what extent they are allowed to remain.
5)The moderators should note who is sensitive to which subjects and not ridicule members because of it.
6)If you are seriously offended by any active topic by all means please report it (with reason).
Btw why are the other mods keeping quiet? I want to hear your feedback. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2007 02:45:19
I've kept quiet because I really don't care if anyone makes fun of any religion in a more general way. Most religions seem way too uptight about critism (Mohammed comics anyone?). Plus, the last few days I've only given the Spammer's Bin quick looks as I've had final exams, papers and projects to deal with. I've mainly kept my UPSB viewing to much more important forums than the Spammer's Bin and had not seen those threads until I read this thread.
RE: LOL Jesus. thread:
They're funny pictures.
RE: Zombo and Jesus thread:
That image is way too stupid to be offensive.
I was supposed to be raised Catholic, but that kinda fell through. Anyway, even when I more into believing, I was able to realize that a lot of people like to get a rise out of others. I don't want to see members specifically flaming other members for their religious beliefs, but making really weak attempts at offending others in general with crappy pictures just seems like the usual Spammer's Bin crap that people keep posting.QUOTEin before kensai requests lock.Yeah, be nice Zombo. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2007 02:50:47
Well... for starters... why would you be upset if you were so deeply trusting in your religion, and so committed? I say that the only reason that can be given is that your beliefs, for you, are still unproven in your mind. Are you insecure in your faith?
If so, maybe you should take the time to study and find yourself within religion, if you're wanting a religion that is. Study other religions, study the history of them, and study the aspects and population that follow. Think about why these people follow. Were they raised to? What is appealing? What isn't appealing? Look at all the different sides, understand where they are coming from, open yourself to everything said, and I think your own conclusion will come to you.
Other than that, we can't discriminate against the entire board because you deem a topic unfit or too controversial. Just because it's something that you can't handle, you can't discuss, for any reason whatsoever doesn't matter. This is a community that is larger than you, and you are a part of it. Deal with the good and the bad, or don't deal. Simple.
If you don't like someone else's words, stop reading the topic and don't look at it again. Send your opinion to a moderator, and let them decide whether or not to close it by seeing if many people are too offended. Let them decide, instead of you requesting a lock and expecting them to abide by your command.
I do respect you, so don't take this as hatred. This is meant to be constructive. I don't mean to offend, I speak with openness. -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2007 03:13:33QUOTE (kensai @ Dec 6 2007, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Poking fun at me? I don't think it's just me, it's my religious stance as well. And how many times do I have to reiterate that my points before I get your attention in a big thread like this? So of course I know you're not being serious, because that's the whole point of it, isn't it - your indifference and insensitivity to others' religious beliefs.
Sorry dude if you thought I offended your religious stance, but you're putting words into my mouth. Let's take a look at my only 4 posts in those religious threads:
"kensai requests lock~! closed."
"kensai requests lock, sorry! blame him."
"in before kensai requests lock."
"dude, I'm above jesus.
Jesus is my son"
Wow. They're completely devoid of any opinion whatsoever. Did I say anything like "Hey kensai, you suck cuz you're christian. Christianity is bad!", or "Fuck you kensai for being christian!!!". All 4 posts are clearly JOKES that have NOTHING to do with your religion. I could have said those replies in ANY thread, heck they don't even mention anything! Except the last quote, but that's in reply to the fact the running joke on the board is that I'm God, because you know, I made the joke "Zombisgod.tk"?!
For example, if someone made a thread called "Emma Watson is an ugly b----", I could post "in before kensai requests lock." and it would have EXACTLY the same meaning as the post I wrote in that thread. I know somewhat what your interests are, so I sometimes poke fun at you for it. To me, THIS IS the level I'm at, not that discriminatory remark you CHOSE to interpret my reply to be.
You're delving too much into my words. I mean of course if you keep telling yourself "this guy is making fun of me, this guy is making fun of me, this guy is making fun of me..." you're gonna think that way!!! You force yourself to believe anything but the fact is that I had no ill intents!!! Think POSITIVELY and YOU'LL SEE THAT NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.QUOTEI see the occasional (maybe more than occasional..) poke at religion, but since my UCPSB report I've come to live with it. But there's a world of difference between TWO threads that make a mockery of a religious figure and the occasional off-handed religious joke. Please understand that my 'fight to pick', so to speak is not with the people that created or participated in the offending threads, but with the apparent indifference of the moderating team and their disregard for others' religious beliefs. I made note of this in my first post; this has ALWAYS been about the moderators, not the members. Having been a forum member for so long I definitely understand how the internet works - pretty much anything goes. But when it comes to making things right, only a few people can do that - the moderators.
I did not bother to flame back at the people involved in those threads. Instead I trusted the moderators to deal with it. But Zombo, you were the one who read my report back on UCPSB so you of all people should know which people are sensitive to what taboo. This was evident when you practically called me out to report the thread - I would've reported it quietly but no, you had to ridicule me and my faith. Not only that, but when I posted about your insensitivity soon after, you gave a completely flippant reply. I honestly can't understand how anyone would find that humorous at all.
Yes, I knew you would complain, but I was only half-expecting you to actually report it. I was joking. I didn't lock it right away because I didn't know how you would react. I didn't know it would affect you that badly. To me it looked clear the two threads had no bad intention. I mean, some other christians have read the topic and they haven't said a word. I really don't see how you can feel that someone is expressing a strong hate toward christianity in those two threads. Actually, they follow the Internet trend to mock ANYTHING by using netspeak and such! This is where the humor comes from. Where in the world do you see anything that express HATE towards Christianity SPECIFICALLY, IN A WAY DIFFERENT FROM OTHER TARGETED TOPICS is beyond me.
Also to post about my "insensitivity" in another thread in the SPAMMER'S BIN is not good idea, since I'm never serious in the Spammer's Bin. Maybe if you sent me a PM instead, I would replied to you more seriously than "lolwut".QUOTEYes I have, and the reason why I mentioned it was because I felt that the creation of the thread itself was thinly-veiled mockery of the Christian belief instead of provoking serious discussion. And IMO, in regards to religious criticism on this board, I think that serious discussion on religion is long past its due date. Maybe there are a few worthy posts in there, but of it is just poking fun of religion. But fine, I'll leave it out of this.
Again, thinking wayyyyyyy too much. If you don't want to get involved, ignore the threads, report it, control yourself.QUOTEYou're right about the grey area, so there's only one logical way to determine what is offensive to whom - by getting feedback from the members themselves. If anyone reports my threads because he/she feels that I have crossed a line, then by all means let me know and I'll stop posting such threads. I'm not an unreasonable person, so just tell me. I just don't have all the answers you know.
If you KNOW it's a grey area, then how can you expect me to act decisively. It is what you just said, a GREY area.QUOTEAnd as for you, if you already know someone's sensitive about a certain topic, then please respect that and don't ridicule them for it before locking the respective thread.
Like I said for the 1000x time, I DID NOT RIDICULE YOU!!! That's all in your head! I JOKE ALL THE TIME IN THE SPAMMER'S BIN. If you don't want me to poke fun at you ONCE AND FOR ALL, then send me a PM and I'll stop calling you Mak or whatever, that's not a problem.QUOTEI wouldn't just lump 'sexual, crude humour, religious topics' into fixed criteria for the trash bin. Feedback and discretion is key here; as ambiguous an approach as the latter sounds, it would help if the mods could discuss this matter more thoroughly among themselves.
HOWEVER, seeing as this is the first major comment of its kind, it seems to me that most people don't really mind those topics or are unwilling to speak up...so people, if you're majorly offended by something, by all means report it...
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To recap,
1)Who I'm NOT taking issue with are the members who posted in those threads I linked in the OP.
2)What I AM taking issue with here is Zombo, and by extension the moderating team's insensitivity and disregard for my religion.
3)I condone freedom of speech, but I also believe in a justly moderated system, and that it is the job of the moderators to keep the board in order, not the members.
4)Member feedback and moderators' discretion determines which subjects are taboo and to what extent they are allowed to remain.
5)The moderators should note who is sensitive to which subjects and not ridicule members because of it.
6)If you are seriously offended by any active topic by all means please report it (with reason).
Btw why are the other mods keeping quiet? I want to hear your feedback.
I understand those points clearly, that's why the report feature exists. It has been used many times before to remove certain sensitive topics and it was OK, no problem.
I feel that this incident is a big misunderstanding. You THOUGHT that I was making fun of you and your religion because I posted that remark before closing the thread, which is not the case. Now, does that make you feel better to know that?
I have no problem in removing sensitive topics if the following procedure is undertaken:
1) IGNORE the target thread
2) Report it
3) That's it.
This has already been done in the past and there was no problem.
What you did however, was choose to confront me publicly about it, which is very regretful. None of this needed to happen, you just had to send me a honest PM saying you don't like those kind of threads and I would have taken note. Did you ever do that? No.
Finally, you say that you're disappointed that I did not lock the thread BEFORE you even reported. Well guess what, my sense of judgment is not perfect. I have ZERO knowledge of Christianity, how the HECK am I supposed to know that the thread is a thin-veiled mockery of Christianity??? Half the pictures I don't even know what they represent.
You say that I'm insensitive to your religion because I didn't react properly to those threads. Well to me it looks like they're just humorous, harmless fun. It's not so much insensitivity, but IGNORANCE. I have no idea what they mean, they just look funny to me. I didn't know AT ALL that they were offensive. How can you say that I'm insensitive then if I don't even know what it is?
For instance, did you know that the Bridal Chorus is not played at Jewish weddings, and it is a great offence to play it in the presence of jews? The reason is that it is composed by Richard Wagner, who is famously known for being anti-semite. Would I call someone insensitive to the Jews if they didn't know that? OF COURSE NOT! They just didn't know that! Same as me for Christianity!
I'm not disregarding your religion, I just don't know what's considered offensive for it! That's not the same thing!
What I can catch, I'll do it, but the rest please just send a report and I GUARANTEE IT WILL BE TAKEN CARE OF. Don't complain that I didn't take care of it if it's a grey area. You ABSOLUTELY NEED TO REPORT EVERY SINGLE THREAD THAT YOU FIND SENSITIVE.
Finally, I have some issues in making certain issues taboo. By taboo I mean making a rule which will ABSOLUTELY lock all threads that deal with a certain subject. What happened here is a simple set of circumstances. If we had someone who was very vocal and offended by gay jokes, then we would have to lock all such threads. Heck, if someone was very vocal and offended by PS jokes, we would not be able to mock PS!!!
I think you get the point that to cater to every person's tastes is VERY difficult. Compromise, compromise, compromise. Even now, not ALL slightly-racist topics are not locked, because they're harmless. Apparently you thought those threads were not, I thought they were, because they were for the sake of humor.
I'm disappointed that you had to confront me directly in public, but I hope we can solve this problem. To me it seems like the biggest sore point is that you thought I was making fun of your religion, when I'm not. After all those years, I'm surprised that you don't know me better. If you thought about this rationally, you would have clearly seen that it simply would not make sense for a person like me to mock your religion, you would have remembered that I'm a very open-minded person, always interested in negotiating situations peacefully. I always try to resolve problems in private. Don't believe me? ask Dark Angel-Rex and the long private conversation we've had.
It's ironic, because the reason the Off-topic section on UPSB2 was closed was due to your very tasteless thread on torture, and that I was the one (amongst the staff) to defend the rights of the members (that includes you) to have a loose off-topic section on the forum, where grey area (yes grey includes religions, races, gender, politics, etc.) threads would be tolerated as long as they are not ill-intended. It's too bad but it seems like a quasi-unrestricted off-topic forum remains impossible on UPSB, so sooner or later it will become as restrictive as on UPSB2, and members will lose this freedom they once had.
Anyway I've had my lesson now, I'll definitely be locking threads more aggressively. But you DEFINITELY didn't have to attack me like that to request so. A simple PM would have done the trick.
FYI: Out of all the pictures, I only find the YMCA picture funny cuz I understand it (it's easy). The other ones I don't really know what's going on but I guess they're somewhat funny because they use netspeak... -
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2007 07:26:42
Maybe pictures such as the ones in LOL Jesus should be put in spoilers so that when you click on the thread to see it, you don't have to see them. That might help?
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Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 03:42:24QUOTE (Tim @ Dec 7 2007, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Maybe pictures such as the ones in LOL Jesus should be put in spoilers so that when you click on the thread to see it, you don't have to see them. That might help?
I think that compromise is reasonable, but I still stand behind what I said. -
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 06:15:27QUOTESorry dude if you thought I offended your religious stance, but you're putting words into my mouth. Let's take a look at my only 4 posts in those religious threads:Ok, 'poking fun' at my religious stance sounds too strong, I feel that it's more like not taking it seriously. I accept that your intention was not to offend me, but still, the words themselves are (to me) inherently offensive.
"kensai requests lock~! closed."
"kensai requests lock, sorry! blame him."
"in before kensai requests lock."
"dude, I'm above jesus.
Jesus is my son"
Wow. They're completely devoid of any opinion whatsoever. Did I say anything like "Hey kensai, you suck cuz you're christian. Christianity is bad!", or "Fuck you kensai for being christian!!!". All 4 posts are clearly JOKES that have NOTHING to do with your religion. I could have said those replies in ANY thread, heck they don't even mention anything! Except the last quote, but that's in reply to the fact the running joke on the board is that I'm God, because you know, I made the joke "Zombisgod.tk"?!
For example, if someone made a thread called "Emma Watson is an ugly b----", I could post "in before kensai requests lock." and it would have EXACTLY the same meaning as the post I wrote in that thread. I know somewhat what your interests are, so I sometimes poke fun at you for it. To me, THIS IS the level I'm at, not that discriminatory remark you CHOSE to interpret my reply to be.
You're delving too much into my words. I mean of course if you keep telling yourself "this guy is making fun of me, this guy is making fun of me, this guy is making fun of me..." you're gonna think that way!!! You force yourself to believe anything but the fact is that I had no ill intents!!! Think POSITIVELY and YOU'LL SEE THAT NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.QUOTEYes, I knew you would complain, but I was only half-expecting you to actually report it. I was joking. I didn't lock it right away because I didn't know how you would react. I didn't know it would affect you that badly. To me it looked clear the two threads had no bad intention. I mean, some other christians have read the topic and they haven't said a word. I really don't see how you can feel that someone is expressing a strong hate toward christianity in those two threads. Actually, they follow the Internet trend to mock ANYTHING by using netspeak and such! This is where the humor comes from. Where in the world do you see anything that express HATE towards Christianity SPECIFICALLY, IN A WAY DIFFERENT FROM OTHER TARGETED TOPICS is beyond me.This came about because we were looking at the issue from different perspectives...in fact for you it wasn't really an issue at the time. In fact I was expecting a serious PM from you, judging from the gravity of my words.
Also to post about my "insensitivity" in another thread in the SPAMMER'S BIN is not good idea, since I'm never serious in the Spammer's Bin. Maybe if you sent me a PM instead, I would replied to you more seriously than "lolwut".QUOTEAgain, thinking wayyyyyyy too much. If you don't want to get involved, ignore the threads, report it, control yourself.The reason why I am not 'controlling myself' this time is because you called me out in the other two threads. How was I supposed to know at the time that you wouldn't point me out as the person who reported the thread (like you did in the other two)?QUOTELike I said for the 1000x time, I DID NOT RIDICULE YOU!!! That's all in your head! I JOKE ALL THE TIME IN THE SPAMMER'S BIN. If you don't want me to poke fun at you ONCE AND FOR ALL, then send me a PM and I'll stop calling you Mak or whatever, that's not a problem.QUOTEI feel that this incident is a big misunderstanding. You THOUGHT that I was making fun of you and your religion because I posted that remark before closing the thread, which is not the case. Now, does that make you feel better to know that?
I have no problem in removing sensitive topics if the following procedure is undertaken:
1) IGNORE the target thread
2) Report it
3) That's it.
This has already been done in the past and there was no problem.
What you did however, was choose to confront me publicly about it, which is very regretful. None of this needed to happen, you just had to send me a honest PM saying you don't like those kind of threads and I would have taken note. Did you ever do that? No.QUOTEI'm disappointed that you had to confront me directly in public, but I hope we can solve this problem. To me it seems like the biggest sore point is that you thought I was making fun of your religion, when I'm not.
...did you really expect me to end this quietly with a PM when you called me out in those two threads?!? I can accept that you didn't mean to offend me and did not intend to ridicule me but I'm surprised you couldn't take a hint (from Respectable Users). My two major 'sore points' are that I felt disrespected, and that you did not take my religious stance seriously, which is pretty sums up my whole complaint. As I have mentioned in my previous post, if you had not called me out none of this would have happened; I was already preparing to quietly report those two threads before I saw your posts. I felt you had fair warning. Trust me, I did not want to take this issue to the current level it's in, but I think that from all this it's clear that we've misunderstood each other.QUOTEAfter all those years, I'm surprised that you don't know me better. If you thought about this rationally, you would have clearly seen that it simply would not make sense for a person like me to mock your religion, you would have remembered that I'm a very open-minded person, always interested in negotiating situations peacefully. I always try to resolve problems in private. Don't believe me? ask Dark Angel-Rex and the long private conversation we've had.This goes beyond taboo topics, it's all about trust and respect, Zombo. I thought I knew you well enough, and I am aware that you are open to negotiation etc. which is why I am so upset. I trusted you and I respected you a lot. I thought that you would have known me better, but then again we can't read each other's minds so here we are.
It's ironic, because the reason the Off-topic section on UPSB2 was closed was due to your very tasteless thread on torture, and that I was the one (amongst the staff) to defend the rights of the members (that includes you) to have a loose off-topic section on the forum, where grey area (yes grey includes religions, races, gender, politics, etc.) threads would be tolerated as long as they are not ill-intended. It's too bad but it seems like a quasi-unrestricted off-topic forum remains impossible on UPSB, so sooner or later it will become as restrictive as on UPSB2, and members will lose this freedom they once had.
So, for the record, I don't care much about what people post, unless it's really offensive to me (like those two threads); by now it's obvious that when I see such threads I usually report them. My only request is that moderators keep member confidentiality between them, eg. whatever is sent through reports and PMs STAYS between those members and moderators (on hindsight you probably shouldn't have mentioned DAR..unless he doesn't care). Whatever is public knowledge stays public knowledge. That's all I have to say. -
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 06:26:33QUOTE (Square)Well... for starters... why would you be upset if you were so deeply trusting in your religion, and so committed? I say that the only reason that can be given is that your beliefs, for you, are still unproven in your mind. Are you insecure in your faith?Thanks for the advice, but I am very secure in my faith. If you really want to know why, that's personal (but if you're really determined I'm sure you'll find it in a thread somewhere). I do know a bit about the common aspects and statistics of religions, though I may read up on that in the future along with philosophy and ethics etc.
If so, maybe you should take the time to study and find yourself within religion, if you're wanting a religion that is. Study other religions, study the history of them, and study the aspects and population that follow. Think about why these people follow. Were they raised to? What is appealing? What isn't appealing? Look at all the different sides, understand where they are coming from, open yourself to everything said, and I think your own conclusion will come to you.QUOTE (Square)Other than that, we can't discriminate against the entire board because you deem a topic unfit or too controversial. Just because it's something that you can't handle, you can't discuss, for any reason whatsoever doesn't matter. This is a community that is larger than you, and you are a part of it. Deal with the good and the bad, or don't deal. Simple.I advise you to read this thread again. That I reported a thread should not have been public knowledge. Also, I mentioned that 'Feedback and discretion is key here; as ambiguous an approach as the latter sounds, it would help if the mods could discuss this matter more thoroughly among themselves.'
If you don't like someone else's words, stop reading the topic and don't look at it again. Send your opinion to a moderator, and let them decide whether or not to close it by seeing if many people are too offended. Let them decide, instead of you requesting a lock and expecting them to abide by your command.
I do respect you, so don't take this as hatred. This is meant to be constructive. I don't mean to offend, I speak with openness. -
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 07:05:34
Alright I'll be brutally honest:
My moderating attitude differs depending on the person I'm dealing with. What that means is that depending on what I know of that person and only if I know enough about that person, I allow myself to take certain liberties. For instance, if I know that person is usually a good poster, I won't really warn them for making some minor offense or something. Likewise, if I know that person is not very uptight, I will sometimes allow myself to step out of what a moderator would normally do. For instance, I know UED is a very relaxed guy, so that's the reason I picked him as the victim for the live filming of a ban. I certainly wouldn't do that with everybody, nor would I allow just anybody to bend the rules of the forum. Conversely, I know some people are more strict or do not have a very developped sense of humor, like yxtay and TayYH89 (no offense), so if I'm going to joke with them, I'm gonna make sure they don't it badly.
Now to me, you were in this category of persons that like to joke around, are not very serious about what they post and are usually pretty laid-back, not very easily offended. After all those years of posting, that's the kind of person I picture in mind. And so that allows me to move off of my moderating position to do stuff which I think are funny/joking knowing full well the person that is singled out won't mind too much or will even enjoy it. Saying your reports out loud was one such occasion.
Now this might sound stereotypical to you, but I just thought that because of this chill attitude you reflect, it was hard for me to believe that you are such a devout christian. I mean, you seem to joke around with pretty much every subject out there, so how am I supposed to know that suddenly when it's about religion, it's off-limit?
I know you were christian, because you briefly mentionned it before and told some story about leaving a book during the night or something. But how could I have possibly known that a joker like you was to be the most "hardcore" christian on the forum?
The first report you put on UCPSB, I didn't treat it seriously. I thought that at that time, there really wasn't any harm in getting Joshua to post pictures of himself looking like Jesus, so when you send me this serious-looking report on UCPSB, I thought you were just trying to bug me off and do some extra work to clean up the thread. I'm sorry to say but in my mind, it just didn't look like a credible report (due to your usual attitude).
And so when the same situation arises this time around, I'm thinking again: "Heh, maybe kensai is going to try and bug me off again." so I posted that "in" message. Then you followed up the reports, as expected, so I thought you were playing my game, reporting as I predicted. Obviously I didn't know I was the only one actually fooling around. Even for that reputation post, I thought you were still joking around, saying bad things like you usually do but don't really mean it, so I kept joking.
Things like this happen on the Internet, it's just way too easy to mistake someone's tone for something else. But in this case, I thought I knew you sufficiently enough to discern the tone of your posts. I guess I was wrong. To me the only way to talk REALLY seriously is only by sending PMs. Then I tend to treat them much more formally.
So, hey, there you go. I guess you're not that "super-cool, super-smooth" guy I thought you were all those years, at least not on the religious front. Well now that I know that, I'll pay more attention to it. But you gotta admit, you don't see that everyday; a firm believer, a man of good faith whose comfortable in casually discussing topics of homosexuality, sadomasochism (oh I know you like it hard
) and fantasizes about ways to slowly and painfully kill someone.
You're an interesting fellow, Mark, and this ambivalence makes it even more.
If we were playing a game of Mafia, you'd have me beat.
PS: http://www.upsb.info/wiki/index.php/User:Dark_Angel-REX / I'm always careful with what I say, if necessary. -
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 07:58:47
I understand...sorry if I seemed harsh, hopefully we understand each other better now. Knowing you'll take a PM more seriously, I'll be sure to send you one when I need serious reply, but please don't reveal anything mentioned in reports and PMs in public..
We cool? -
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 14:02:36
yea no problem man, I forgive easily and I usually don't care about taking a lot of heat, even in public, as long as it's productive and I believe a solution can be found.
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Date: Sun, Dec 9 2007 03:40:21
Meh, I never knew you viewed me this way.
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Date: Sun, Dec 9 2007 04:27:03QUOTE (TayYH89 @ Dec 8 2007, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Meh, I never knew you viewed me this way.
it's a good thing, it means your mind is not perverted
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Date: Sun, Dec 9 2007 07:34:05
I want to get one thing straight. If it's okay to sway the moderating towards the sensitivity of Christians on this board, then, for example, is it okay if someone wants racist comments dealt with and/or deleted even IF the comments were in jest?
It seems if someone is passionate enough about something, then that person has just as a valid request to have something dealt with as the Christians here. -
Date: Sun, Dec 9 2007 12:44:18
yeah ..admin please stop this topic..so rude topic
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Date: Sun, Dec 9 2007 19:03:53
I say if it's not flaming, spam, a direct insult, and is valid to the topic/section, it should be allowed. If it is too offensive, then it should take more than one persons request to lock a topic.
If you're too sensitive because of one person, it's discrimination against the entire board. Not everything can be exactly the way each person wants it. As soon as you try to please each individual, you will please no one. -
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2007 01:26:23QUOTE (Zombo @ Dec 9 2007, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>it's a good thing, it means your mind is not perverted
Oh yes, every cloud has a silver lining doesn't it? -
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2007 13:11:46
This topic envelops me in the shadows of the walls...
...of text.
I find that me poking fun at ShoeMan was taken much more seriously than this is rather...biased. -
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2007 14:27:17
We will review each situation case-by-case. I believe that guaranteeing no moderation or imposing a strict rule are not adequete solutions. They are too inflexible and tie our hands.
For now the best solution is to look at such exceptional situations as they come. -
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2007 15:38:31QUOTE (Zombo @ Dec 10 2007, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>We will review each situation case-by-case. I believe that guaranteeing no moderation or imposing a strict rule are not adequete solutions. They are too inflexible and tie our hands.
For now the best solution is to look at such exceptional situations as they come.
So we are still allowed to post funny jesus pics?
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Date: Tue, Dec 11 2007 00:39:48QUOTE (Viend @ Dec 10 2007, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So we are still allowed to post funny jesus pics?
Yeah, what's the verdict? -
Date: Tue, Dec 11 2007 00:56:09
uhhhhh no. im' pretty sure you can make the effort to not post it again
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Date: Tue, Dec 11 2007 01:45:17
So now this board exercises censorship???
The beginning of the end. -
Date: Tue, Dec 11 2007 02:32:58
alright, I knew SOMEONE was going to say that eventually which is why I was hesitant at first, but like I said we're making it flexible, there's no big red line that say do not cross, just think more amicably like c'mon do you really feel the need to post jesus pictures on an internet board if you know it bothers someone who visits the board frequently,
it's not even a question about whats politically correct or about your freedom, it's about friendly resolution and making the board a little better for everybody, it's just a question of compromise.
if you really need to post some jesus pics, go to UCPSB and do it, I couldn't care less. -
Date: Wed, Dec 12 2007 23:51:16
Wow kensai. Just wow.
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Date: Thu, Dec 13 2007 00:01:04
thread closed issue resolved, solution proposed.