UPSB v3
Philosophy / Typecasting in Pen Spinning
Does it exist?
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Date: Sat, Apr 3 2010 06:29:55
Typecasting in acting refers to the fact that an actor can be strongly identified with a role (for example Jackie Chan with martial artist) such that if they are to take on a different role, their performance will feel strange or be under-appreciated, no matter how good the performance actually is. Not every actor is being typecasted, some are known to hold versatile roles.
So in pen spinning, typecasting would refer to identifying a spinner with a particular pen spinning style (and/or pen and/or even setup + clothes). When watching any video by that spinner, the appreciation of the combo will be biased by that pen spinner's background, regardless of how good/bad the combo actually is.
Here are some questions on the issue:
1) Do you think typecasting exists in pen spinning? Do you think it's a problem? Are all pen spinners typecasted, or only a fraction?
2) Do you personally take into account the pen spinner's reputation when watching a video? If you hate/like a spinner and the spinner doesn't spin like usual, do you think you can like the combo more than the usual stuff (regardless of the combo itself)?
3) Is it possible for a typecasted spinner to change his reputation? Or is he stuck forever with that perception?
I will answer later. -
Date: Sat, Apr 3 2010 07:56:41
i'm trying to think of an example where typecasting happens
i mean, theres a difference between being used to a particular style by a particular spinner, and typecasting
if pyralux had absolutely no hand/arm movement in his video, it'll throw everyone off completely
typecasting in acting mainly occurs due to casting choices by directors etc, ie, "oh, i'm doing a martial arts movie..... i'll choose jackie chan"
that doesn't quite occur in pen spinning
unless we move into "now presenting.... the power tricks collab" phase/trend, i dont think typecasting happens
but now that i think of it, i do see that some spinners are associated with a certain style
if i say pyralux, you'll say crazy hand movements
if i say fratelym, you'll say mangled fingers
and finally, thers's the issue with identifying spinners
because (in most cases) the face isn't visible, there needs to be an element of familiarity
something you can identify the spinner with, whether its style, background, pen, whatever
we could all probably draw eriror's set up from memory
infact, i'll attempt it now
or dongza's set up
this is quite a fun game actually.....
whats my point again???
if we liken pen spinning to tv, rather than movie (me being a media student):
we can say a pen spinning video (whether its a solo vid, or collab) follows the conventions of tv
there needs to be a repetition of characters (say.... jerry, george, elaine and kramer in sienfeld), settings (jerry's appartment, the cafe) etc. in tv so there is familiarity
while in a movie, the opening establishes the main characters, and then there is a conflict etc.
even in a sequel, the opening will re-establish who the main characters are
in that aspect, pen spinning is similar
there needs to be some sort of familiarity in order to recognise the spinners quickly
even if there is a name displayed in a collab, we can work out most of the spinners just by looking at their set ups and style
and then we move onto the subject of penspinning as art
if we take this stance, every artist, of every medium, will have a distinct style they choose
and again, if we take film as an example, "art film" directors have a distinct style across their work
whether its tarantino with his violent gore and uptempo soundtracks, or tim burton with his johnny depp (yes, i do love bagging out the burton+depp relationship) auteur directors have their style
i'm sure tarantino would have experimented with different styles, and so would have burton (batman didn't have depp in it... huzzah....)
so if we take this approach to pen spinning, as a spinner being an artist, as well as the tv approach, to answer all the questions:
Do you think typecasting exists in pen spinning? slightly side stepping, but yes, each spinner will have a distinct style that both keeps familiarity with the audience and a product of their artistic style
Do you think it's a problem? no, as i said, it helps us quickly identify a spinner, and an artist's style his his/her choice
Are all pen spinners typecasted, or only a fraction? again, making typecast to mean "a particular style associated with a spinner", each will have one, or is developing one
Do you personally take into account the pen spinner's reputation when watching a video? this is a good question.... yes to an extent. if i watch a video from, say spinnerpeem, i expect a strong powertrick combo
If you hate/like a spinner and the spinner doesn't spin like usual, do you think you can like the combo more than the usual stuff (regardless of the combo itself)? i wouldn't say like more, it'll get more of a response though
again, taking spinnerpeem as an example, if peem did a combo similar to frats, i would say, "wow, spinnerpeem can spin like that?"
whether its a good or bad depends on what the actual combo, but i would be completely thrown off
Is it possible for a typecasted spinner to change his reputation? Or is he stuck forever with that perception?
yes, i believe it is, but, put it this way
if you were peem, would you rather:
a. be the best powerspinner alive or
b. be a mediocre smooth, stylistic, creative spinner?
i'm sure if you were to work hard, you could be one of the top creative spinners, but why not stick with what you know, and know well
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wow... i think that was the longest post that i've ever posted....
and i dont think my post is at all coherent, but oh well, there's some valid points in there, that may or maynot contradict each other
lets just call it a journey through my stream of thoughts, and you can pretend to be Marlow -
Date: Sat, Apr 3 2010 12:51:11QUOTE (k-ryder @ Apr 3 2010, 03:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>typecasting in acting mainly occurs due to casting choices by directors etc, ie, "oh, i'm doing a martial arts movie..... i'll choose jackie chan"
that doesn't quite occur in pen spinning
unless we move into "now presenting.... the power tricks collab" phase/trend, i dont think typecasting happens
well what I mean is whether or not certain expectations are created based on the reputation of spinners that the combo must follow, regardless of how good the combo actually is. thats the adapted definition of typecasting for PS, which is actually quite different from movies. couldnt find a better word.
another analogy would be being a big fan of a music band. you like their style but after several years, the band decide to change their musical direction. because its different from what you expect, you say you hate it, even though you never really considered how good it actually is in its new style. all you can remember is that it's not what you want. and it's kind of paradoxal, because if a band doesn't change their style enough, they get criticized for being repetitive...
so in pen spinning, you have certain expections just from the spinner spinning. if the combo meets those expectations TOO MUCH, it gets labeled as repetitive. if it deviates TOO MUCH, it gets labeled as weird or "disappointing" or "I like your old style/mod/angle better", even though the new combo might actually be really good, you're just not used to it and it clouds your appreciation of the true value of the combo. -
Date: Sat, Apr 3 2010 13:36:23QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 3 2010, 08:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>so in pen spinning, you have certain expections just from the spinner spinning. if the combo meets those expectations TOO MUCH, it gets labeled as repetitive. if it deviates TOO MUCH, it gets labeled as weird or "disappointing" or "I like your old style/mod/angle better", even though the new combo might actually be really good, you're just not used to it and it clouds your appreciation of the true value of the combo.
that's interesting...cause i thought of 2 spinners when i read this
i love seven and ippei for their separate reasons
seven-for his inverse shadow variations, aerial thumbindex spin revs, and maybe a few other things
ippei- for his wiper combos..obviously lol
but i think after a while seven stopped using those tricks as much, and i became disappointed in his combos
and as for ippei, when i saw a non-wiper combo from him, i was like...nothing special but that's..interesting? i guess..?
so yeah, i think typecasting does exist..i did become disappointed with seven and ippei when they stopped using, what was to me, their "signature things" (even though seven has his style, not just those two tricks)
as for everything else............i'll answer them later, i'll edit this post or something -
Date: Sun, Apr 4 2010 01:18:22
In my opinion it doesn't happen much in pen spinning. The number of "Hey cool new style!" comments I see vastly outweigh the "Wtf you changed" comments.
To me it's a critical vs entertainment issue. In pen spinning, versatility is always a positive. So showing off that you can spin different ways isn't ever a bad thing. Also, people watch videos with a critical eye, their goal is to analyze the spinner and their talent.
In music, people listen to be amused or entertained or whatever. So if you like a certain "type" of music that a band plays then yeah you'd "typecast" them because you want to keep listening to it. I wouldn't ever praise Garth Brooks for versatility if he made a rap, i'd be pissed that he's not singing country. (Random analogy btw, i hate country haha). But if dongza decided to spin slow or something, I'd note that "wow, that's really impressive tha he can do both"
BUUUT then again that's probably just me. People now seem to watch videos and judge them based on what they personally "like" and not the critical elements of the combo. For example people say that what you do doesn't matter, how it looks is all that matters. I personally disagree -
Date: Sun, Apr 4 2010 03:25:42
now using music as an analogy:
as strat said, its entertainment, and i think pen spinning to an extent is "entertainment"
look at the appeal side, meaning it has to atleast be likeable
if you're open to any genre of music, as long as its good, then even if, say, Taylor Swift started doing horrorcore rap, it'll not be a problem
(note: horrorcore = hyperviolent rap, eg/ insane clown posse)
this is all assuming
1. taylor swift is actually good
2. horrorcore is actually good
3. taylor swift's version of horrorcore is good
4. i am open to any type of music
now, if taylor swift does shit horrorcore (lol), we probably wouldn't like it
same with pen spinning
assuming we aren't biased to any type of style (ie. personal preference to a style rather than expectations of a spinner's style):
then dongza spinning slow (assuming its good) may throw us off for a bit, but we wouldn't mind
so critically, no we wouldn't mind (or the judges)
but for entertainment, and personal preference/expectations, maybe
i'm really not sure what my final decision on this is.... ive put about 14 different points and not sure what / where/ why i'm saying -
Date: Sun, Apr 4 2010 04:49:04
well im not saying whether it should or should not happen,
because IMO the "blank state" (tabula rasa) approach is the best; look only at the combo, if you like it, then you like it; it shouldn't matter who the combo is from.
BUT the exception is when you're appreciating the creativity of the combo, because obviously creativity comes from doing something new so you need to remember the history of pen spinning in general.
in reality, i think pen spinner reputation has more influence that it should have.
example: in R3, stuhl actually made a pretty moderately fast speed combo. but some people still say his style is crap because it's too slow, even though the combo itself is really not that slow. either they didn't watch the vid, or they're super biased because stuhl usually spin slow, so that combo appears slower than reality. -
Date: Mon, Apr 5 2010 06:33:18
Procrastinate on lit for this.
QUOTE1) Do you think typecasting exists in pen spinning? Do you think it's a problem? Are all pen spinners typecasted, or only a fraction?
2) Do you personally take into account the pen spinner's reputation when watching a video? If you hate/like a spinner and the spinner doesn't spin like usual, do you think you can like the combo more than the usual stuff (regardless of the combo itself)?
3) Is it possible for a typecasted spinner to change his reputation? Or is he stuck forever with that perception?
1) Yes. But it's not necessarily a problem since it can be analyzed as encouragement and discouragement.
1a) Encouragement: Spinner x has been identified with a certain way of spinning - he has gotten the attention of the penspinning community and therefore is a prominent spinner. Of course there's no real downside of this until:
1b) Discouragement: Spinner x tries something new and it doesn't quite work out to what people expect from him - "I liked the old style better" doesn't do a lot to help morale, in most perspectives. This ultimately results in the person deciding that he is not fit to try other things outside of his zone or he will try harder, at the risk of being discredited by the community BUT the penspinning community is pretty lax on these matters, and generally accepting to new things.
2) Undoubtedly. I watch supawit and peem and don't expect anything other than power tricks. And look what I get. Power tricks. Mission accomplished.
2a) Liking a new style: I personally have two segregations of spinning styles. There are the individual styles of spinners (spinners that generally spin a certain way and are known to), and then styles that I enjoy (lots of passes, lots of speed).
Obviously, the sweetspot is when the spinner's style has a similarity with a general style that I like. When a spinner deters from this set of styles that I like, I naturally tend to disapprove. Of course if he spins a new style and it just happens to be another general style that I enjoy watching (say vic just randomly spun like s777 one day) I would love it, since it's another style that I like. If he spun with a style that I don't like, I would not like it.
3) Again, it depends on the majority of the community. If the community lets him, it's OK. If not, the request is rejected, and he is stuck with that. I would say it depends on first impressions; if a spinner changes his style and it's not very well developed, and isn't really up to standards relative to other spinners' spinning with that general style, (say eriror started going super power tricks but not really smoothly) that would be disastrous! And that's why some spinners, I can only assume, won't change or record these radical shifts (until they get noticeably good/better at this style to be able to pull off a change.)
If the change is better or equal to the previous style, it's great and accepted. Else, it is looked down upon, because to the community's view, it IS a step down from the style the spinner had before.
tl;dr seven's not gonna be doing a combo solely composed of power tricks and peem isn't gonna have snake fingers in the near future. And if they do, I would consider much of this post utterly and completely void.
[excuse incoherence it's late and there's homework to be done] -
Date: Mon, Apr 26 2010 04:34:02QUOTE2) Undoubtedly. I watch supawit and peem and don't expect anything other than power tricks. And look what I get. Power tricks. Mission accomplished.
there's a difference between "expecting" and "it HAS to be".
IMO it's OK to expect something from a known spinner, but its not OK to reject combo if its surprising.
example: rejecting ponkotu's world cup vids because he doesn't spin 3000f