UPSB v3
Philosophy / High PS vs Low PS
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Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 18:40:38
Now, we all know that natural segregation and biases occur within society. One such segregation is that of "High" art and "Low art." It occurs with in painting, writing, music--all types of art forms. Seeing as PS can be classified as an art-form, do you think we have such a segregation or if we will have it in the future?
I don't think such a thing has developed as of yet due to the fact that a separation of "High" and "Low" art is mainly due to a class difference and class has yet to be an important factor in PS. I think it's a possibility but I'd like to see everyone elses' thoughts.
We do have a few segregation that I know of. Light Vs Heavy pens, but thankfully such a silly notion was squashed in UPSB with my anti-penism movement (lol?). I can see a possible division between power trickers and...normal PSers?
Let the discussion commence. -
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 18:58:41
I don't think PSing can truly be classified as an "art"
Yeah, we can say there's an art to it, like "driving is an art" or "standing on one leg is an art" or whatever, but realistically look at the things it's comparable to. None of the Olympic games are classified as arts. No other judge-based sport is an "art" technically. Yeah there's artistic elements, but that doesn't make it qualify as an art IMO -
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 18:59:04
omg
Two years ago, I was talking about the exact same thing to Tialys when he came to my home, we were planning on filming a "lecture" of me explaining what high and low art means in pen spinning. I was supposed to write an article on it as well.
Anyway, the low and high arts of pen spinning is defined along creativity and innovation.
The high arts are concerned with pushing the definition of pen spinning. Execution is not important here as long as you explain your ideas clearly. It is a form of pen spinning which is not accessible to the public because it is not polished. It is only of interest to researchers or creative spinners. Some might even criticize certain ideas at this level to not even be considered pen spinning.
The low arts is the common spinning we see everyday in collabs and competition. It is what the public appreciate; very refined, well executed combos whose primary focus is appeal. Innovation is not very important here.
The main form of interaction between the two is the trickle down effect. As the current paradigm of low spinning gets saturated, low spinning looks up to the high arts to find the next level of innovation which can be mastered and incorporated to low spinning. High spinning is always a step ahead in creativity, but its impact is only slowly disseminated to the masses.
Example: triangle pass was invented ages ago and was made popular due to bonkura's perfected use of it. Counter tricks were invented also a very long time ago and were popularized a few years later due to the rise of hybrid spinning. -
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 21:14:10
Some would say figure skating is an art which is a judged sport. The thing about pen spinning being an art is that usually art is more subjective, and "quality" is based on preference, and pen spinning has a lot of opinion based things which can't really be judged. Judging pen spinning isn't as simple as comparing who threw a javelin further which is based on distance, which can be easily measured.
I do think there's segregation in pen spinning like the segregation seen in paintings, music, and other obvious art forms.
-Painters get judged on how great they are or not by their technique, their accuracy with their brush strokes, their ability to blend colors, and whatever other criteria there is.
-Musicians can get judged on like how many mistakes they made, how accurate they were compared to the notes on paper, etc...
There's various categories that art can be judged upon; so strat, the fact that something goes through judging doesn't make something a sport and not an artform.
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As for zombo's classification, I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with that just yet... I was typing up a response but I found myself agreeing it at some points and then disagreeing at other points.
I agree that pushing the limits of pen spinning would be classified as high art; innovation, creativity, etc...
But I think at the same time the spinning needs to be refined; art has to be appealing to the eye, and if the everyday collab combos are very appealing to some people, those combos are considered high art to those people.
--Again, it's difficult to say for certain what is high and low art in any form of art (drawing, music, pen spinning) because so much is based off of preference. Picasso pushed the limits of art (I think?) by being different, so he's high art to some, but I personally dislike his style of drawing so it's not a very high form of art for me.
We can say for sure that some tricks are more difficult than others (Bakfall > Thumbaround), and we can judge it on that and say that people's preference doesn't matter much because it's obvious that Bakfall is harder than thumbaround -- but bakfall is a higher form of the art than thumbaround because we can all agree and aknowledge that it's more difficult to do. But when we go into Bakfall vs IPBA rev... I can't say which one's more difficult than the other -- so this is left up to the audience to judge according to their own preference/beliefs which is a higher form of art to them.
Interesting topic, I haven't thought this all out so much yet so I dont' have a perfect response and I think I started to confuse myself when going into talking about zombo's classification lol -.- -
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 21:24:36
high art or low art has nothing to do with superiority
high art does not mean its better than low art.
another term for high art is fine art and it's defined as "Fine art describes an art form developed primarily for aesthetics and/or concept rather than utility."
which is exactly what I described: spinning for the sake of innovation, not appeal or practical use, is classifed as high pen spinning. -
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 23:09:04
I would say pen spinning is still dwindling between the lines of art and sport.
Based on dicionary.com
sport   [spawrt, spohrt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.
2.
a particular form of this, esp. in the out of doors.
3.
diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime.
art1   [ahrt] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.
2.
the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures, or drawings: a museum of art; an art collection.
3.
a field, genre, or category of art: Dance is an art.
Pen spinning isn't athletic and mainly indoors so we can't really classify it as a sport. I would say PSing is more towards art.
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For the main discussion, It's still all quite gray to me so my opinions may be a bit ridiculous.
I don't think there's a segregation between the high and the low and I don't foresee it coming mainly because even though there are researchers and innovative spinners to come up with things to push the boundaries of PSing like Bonkura, Spinnerpeem (for power tricks only), and many others. When they do come up with something beyond our known realm of PSing, the entire community will see it and enjoy it. Many than, will incorporate the new stuff into their spinning. It doesn't matter if your in the high PS or low PS, you would still want to learn it and appreciate it.
However, I think there's a segregation in the PSing community based on LITS definition on high PS and low PS. I would say the power trickers versus the normal / creative spinner. Based on the things we were discussing at the Singapore gathering recently, Phua S.Y and SPRiNGFiELD were more of power trickers and Glamouraz, Joshua Sia and I were more iin the other group (I can't really remember). I think the Power trickers group is starting to dominate the other group which sucks. -
Date: Fri, Apr 9 2010 23:55:49
its not correct to call power tricks high art and others low art.
both are simply different genres or styles of pen spinning.
as PS expands if the styles diverge significantly, then there will be a gap. but that's just a sign that pen spinning is getting bigger.
For example, music is really big and you can't expect any music enthiusiast to like ALL genres of music, only very specific ones. but that doesn't mean it's a problem. -
Date: Sat, Apr 10 2010 02:56:12
ok, so by zombo's definitions, i take high art to mean art with innovations, not necessarily technical brilliance, but of with new ideas
and low art is the one of the masses, technical brilliance with common, accepted style/technique
now, applying that to psing:
there is a gap between "new tricks" and commonly used tricks
for example, there are "new tricks" or "innovation" videos from time to time where spinners showcase their innovations to pen spinning
the spinning in those videos are not perfect, some of the tricks have flaws, but the point is put across fine
and then theres the collab videos which contain the usual mix of tw sonic hybrids, baks and powertricks
so, in a way, there is a distinct difference between the "new" and "common" tricks, but i (personally) classify the innovations as just innovations, rather than classify the whole section as high art and the rest low
sure, there are many "innovative" spinners (take pyralux) who's style is not particularly mimic-ed
you could call his style high art, but i feel thats rather elitist (thats not the word i'm looking for i think).. pretentious?
conclusion: the title high art makes it seems pretentious
would rather call it "innovations" or "unique"
and hippo, dictionary.com is not the most reliable or credible source of information -
Date: Sun, Apr 11 2010 02:01:53
@Zombo
When I was talking about the power tricks thing I was referring to what LITS originally wanted to discuss. The segregation of the pen spinning community into different genres (I think.)
@k-ryder
I don't think style can be brought to this topic because every style is unique even if you try to copy some else's style, it'll still be different in some way.
I know that dictionary.com has it's flaws but I was too lazy to define the terms myself so I just went there. -
Date: Sun, Apr 11 2010 02:59:17QUOTE (Hippo2626 @ Apr 11 2010, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>@k-ryder
I don't think style can be brought to this topic because every style is unique even if you try to copy some else's style, it'll still be different in some way.
by style i mean general terms
ie. peem/superwit has the 'powertricks' style, copied by alot of people
not saying all who copy have the same combos, but its generally influenced by and built around tricks like hai tua and ipba revs
lets put it this way
art (painting) seems to be the easiest to do, but i have no knowledge of art, so i'll do music
say, we look at early rock music
bands like the who and rolling stones created a distinctly new style of music from the jazz/blues music of the prior early 60s
that spurred other bands to join the movement, each with their own minor variations, but the overall feel is one that can be grouped into a common genre of rock
spinning has developed the same
for powertrick style, peem/supawit (now unintentionally linked to the who/stones) have a distinct style, which some expand on, while some just copy (cover bands)
in that sense, linking it back to the original topic, i think new ideas are more or less quickly intergrated into the "mainstream", rather than a showcase of high art trickling down to the commoners -
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 06:56:23
so if im understanding tis right; higher ps would be like minwoo'screativity or vic's complicated links and low ps would just be like standard combos from peem or other pure power trickers not really advancing ps creatively?