UPSB v3
Battlezone / PSL R1: LITS vs Yosky
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Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 15:50:04
Look Into The Sun
Yosky
Voting will last 1 week
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Date: Sun, Apr 18 2010 22:18:30
Wait, judging's done by a public voting?
...
Boy am I going to get pwned in this tourny. No one likes my spinning. And everyone hates on my fingers. :\ -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 00:22:45
I voted for you
Your difficulty was higher and your linkages were more complex. -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 01:13:57QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Apr 18 2010, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Wait, judging's done by a public voting?
...
Boy am I going to get pwned in this tourny. No one likes my spinning. And everyone hates on my fingers. :\
This is the only angle that makes your spinning look good IMO. And I voted for you. Your fingers look fine on this angle. -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 06:23:40QUOTE (xSpin @ Apr 18 2010, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is the only angle that makes your spinning look good IMO. And I voted for you. Your fingers look fine on this angle.
Untrue. I've worked hard with finger control trying to work with my oddly curved fingers and the double jointedness. I'd spin and look at moments in which my fingers are not in control and work on that. I'd perform the trick and bend some fingers instead of stretching them out to hide the lack of control or I'd try to extend to keep it under control, etc. My spinning looks fine with other angles but it looks best with that one. :] -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 06:57:07QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Apr 19 2010, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Boy am I going to get pwned in this tourny. No one likes my spinning. And everyone hates on my fingers. :\
Say that you suck and everyone votes for you....that technique always works orz (Not saying that thats the reason you are winning but...)
We should ban contestants from voting on our own battle threads imo (or hide comments until voted)
Anyways I think our vids our pretty equal though, you had more appealing tricks, but i saw a kinda mistake-ish thing at 0:07? or was that on purpose?
same finishers =) -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 07:11:10QUOTE (Yosky @ Apr 18 2010, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Say that you suck and everyone votes for you....that technique always works orz
We should ban contestants from voting on our own battle threads imo (or hide comments until voted)
Anyways I think our vids our pretty equal though, you had more appealing tricks, but i saw a kinda mistake-ish thing at 0:07? or was that on purpose?
same finishers =)
It was intentional but, I suppose the execution isn't done very well. Vic does this thing into a pinkybak P34-34 I like but I can't do as well. The initial trick is a swivel into fl inv shadow into a fl ma and the ending is a swivel into a palmspin into a swivel into a fl ta (I wouldn't say my finishers like yours...aside from the fl ta
). I also have a devil's shadow into a palmspin into a pinkybak and a devil's shadow into a palmspin into wipers. Meant to have some repetition with slightly differing linkages going on.
And I didn't say I sucked. I don't think I suck at all. It's the public that thinks I suck simply because I have unusually shaped fingers. -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 07:40:45QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Apr 19 2010, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's the public that thinks I suck simply because I have unusually shaped fingers.
o.o what? Thats cool, who the hell thinks it sucks?...... -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 07:55:04QUOTE (Yosky @ Apr 18 2010, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>o.o what? Thats cool, who the hell thinks it sucks?......
Many Many people. I've gotten negative comments about it. A lot.
Not lately, but there was when I was more active in my earlier PS days. -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 07:59:44QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Apr 19 2010, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Many Many people. I've gotten negative comments about it. A lot.
Not lately, but there was when I was more active in my earlier PS days.
So then no one thinks it sucks anymore i would think -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 08:26:47
As I've already said, LITS fingers are AAAWWWEEESSSOOOMMMEEE!!!
+1 LITS sorry Yosky but I just liked it more :/ Would have voted for Yosky if he used his SPSL 7th Clip xD -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 08:29:04
i remember the days when everyone really didn't like LITS's fingers.... i really wonder why the sudden change where everyone loves his fingers now o.0
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Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 08:48:47QUOTE (Yosky @ Apr 19 2010, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So then no one thinks it sucks anymore i would think
Haha, point taken. Guess I'm just used to it.
@JC
Indeed, bad days. Might be the angle but I've been using that type of angle since I was a nub. I didn't have a tripod then and I'd tape my camera to the bookshelf and have it lean down. -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 09:40:12
You r right, at least with me, LITS, I really dont like ur spinning
Looks unappealing...
However, I still vote for u, I always consider the difficulty to be the most important thing in a combo -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 15:39:54
ive always told you i love the natural bend of your fingers
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Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 16:02:05
To me your fingers aren't a factor, but when you spin it just looks like the pen is flailing. It doesn't follow any of the typical conic paths that a normal spinner has, it just kinda goes all over the place, and I think that really disrupts the fluidity of your combos and makes it look sloppy. I've gotten used to it to some extent and try to look past it when I watch your combos but it's still the biggest thing that sticks out to me when I see a video from you
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Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 16:43:54QUOTE (strat1227 @ Apr 19 2010, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>To me your fingers aren't a factor, but when you spin it just looks like the pen is flailing. It doesn't follow any of the typical conic paths that a normal spinner has, it just kinda goes all over the place, and I think that really disrupts the fluidity of your combos and makes it look sloppy. I've gotten used to it to some extent and try to look past it when I watch your combos but it's still the biggest thing that sticks out to me when I see a video from you
Hm, interesting. That's new. Do you think it's because I transition a lot of tricks into wipers so I'm holding the pen near its end a lot or it's just my natural pen movement? Should I use a different pen? And have you noticed the same trend as something consistent in all my videos?
I'd like to correct that.
Example vids:
@Shadow You're a minority.
@Nam Dang
Now that's more like it.
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Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 17:23:41
in ur league vid theres too much hand movement
also choppy framerate
u need the framerate like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqtFEjhTRcU -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 17:27:18
Yeah see, especially in that first video you posted there's no coherent coordinate axis for your rotations. IMO full extension and thus good spinning has rotations all either in the xy plane, zy plane, or xz plane. In a lot of your videos the pen rotates within so many different planes in a given combo it comes across as "flaily" to me
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Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 17:32:57QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 19 2010, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>in ur league vid theres too much hand movement
also choppy framerate
u need the framerate like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqtFEjhTRcU
Point taken. I didn't use my lamp as usual in my PSL vid so hence the lower fps. It's hard not use a lot of hand movement for swivels though.
@Strat
What do you mean...? -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 17:53:14
Hmm ok, so the idea is that the orientation of your spinning should have some structure to it.
EX:
for there to be structure in the combo in my opinion, you should be able to rotate this coordinate axis in some way such that all the tricks fall into one of these 3 planes. If your rotations start going outside of them, either A. you're not getting full extension on a trick (IE a TF charge that doesn't get flat or a tw sonic that doesn't stay conical), or B. the spinning is getting "flaily" in that you're moving your hands in some unnatural way so as to disrupt the axis.
Typically it's impossible to have all your tricks in a given combo fit perfectly into an axis like this, but usually a "good" combo has an implied axis, 3 planes that they are generally staying in/around, but for your combos I can never see any dominant coordinate axis, the rotations seem to just go wherever and not follow any general pattern.
Just my opinion of course, but if you look at the majority of "good" spinners they'll almost always have this trait -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 18:15:57
here's the most important part of strat1227's comment:
when transitioning between palm-up/palm-down/upright stance, minimize the number of "important tricks" being performed during those transitions, which will be slanted and look sloppy -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 18:20:53
Well to some degree yes, but my larger point is that LITS doesn't seem to have any set "palm-up/palm-down/upright stances", he spends as much time spinning in interim positions as he does those "home" positions, so it looks sloppy to me.
If it were even as small as doing to many tricks in the transition, then I would inherently have to admit there is a central axis that he's transitioning between, but in many of his combos I can't locate one at all, so the whole thing appears to be transition. -
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 19:59:30
Woah!? over-analysis much @.@
My only concern with you spinning is how you use a lot of "powerful" moves tin the middle of a combo. It makes the finisher seem less strong :/
Love the fingers
Love the minicombos
Loves new linkages LITS -
Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 03:11:34QUOTE (Tushix @ Apr 19 2010, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Woah!? over-analysis much @.@
My only concern with you spinning is how you use a lot of "powerful" moves tin the middle of a combo. It makes the finisher seem less strong :/
Love the fingers
Love the minicombos
Loves new linkages LITS
Heh, indeed a lot of analysis going on. But it's constructive.
And I appreciate the comment. :]
@strat and zombo
Hm, I think a different angle would help with my rotations being more complete and flat--I'll work on that. But I don't know if I like the idea of reducing the amount of tricks done during a palm turn especially since half the tricks/mini-combos I execute in this combo require a palm turn to do. You can't do a swivel into a palmspin without a palm turn--wait, well, you could but palm down palmspin is pretty hard.
Although I really don't notice the whole complete, flat pen rotation idea so I'll have a hard time applying it... we'll see. -
Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 05:43:09
A swivel can ideally done completely in the xy (flat to the ground) plane, in fact if it deviates from that it looks poorly executed
I don't have a camera on me ATM (i'm supposed to be studying xD), but slowly use your left hand to guide the pen through the trick on your right hand, being careful to keep the rotations flat and you'll probably see what I mean.
As far as the complete flat rotation, do you mean you don't notice yourself not doing it (sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of another way to phrase it), or do you not understand the concept?
If it's the latter, just simplify it down to a charge. When learning charge, you first start with just wiggling it back and forth, then slowly you start to get a circurlar motion, though mainly the pen is sitll upright, then eventually after much practice you can get a rotation that's extremely flat and close to the hand. That's what I mean when i say "full extension" of tricks. I personally notice that when I rush combos, or get a "sloppy" look, its from lack of full extension in that regard. (which leads to spinning in an axis that's not coordinate) -
Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 05:48:26QUOTE (strat1227 @ Apr 19 2010, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>A swivel can ideally done completely in the xy (flat to the ground) plane, in fact if it deviates from that it looks poorly executed
I don't have a camera on me ATM (i'm supposed to be studying xD), but slowly use your left hand to guide the pen through the trick on your right hand, being careful to keep the rotations flat and you'll probably see what I mean.
As far as the complete flat rotation, do you mean you don't notice yourself not doing it (sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of another way to phrase it), or do you not understand the concept?
If it's the latter, just simplify it down to a charge. When learning charge, you first start with just wiggling it back and forth, then slowly you start to get a circurlar motion, though mainly the pen is sitll upright, then eventually after much practice you can get a rotation that's extremely flat and close to the hand. That's what I mean when i say "full extension" of tricks. I personally notice that when I rush combos, or get a "sloppy" look, its from lack of full extension in that regard. (which leads to spinning in an axis that's not coordinate)
Pretty sure I get the concept but my spinning achieves a full extension when I look at it. Though I admit, in my video, it doesn't look like it. The rev wiper 14 trick I do seems like just a wiggle in the video but in my point of view while I was spinning I made two complete rotations.
And I'm not just doing a swivel. I can perform one with my hand completely palm down. It's a swivel into a palmspin that I execute in my video. -
Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 05:54:15QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Apr 20 2010, 01:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Pretty sure I get the concept but my spinning achieves a full extension when I look at it. Though I admit, in my video, it doesn't look like it. The rev wiper 14 trick I do seems like just a wiggle in the video but in my point of view while I was spinning I made two complete rotations.
Yeah, I've noticed that what I see in my eyes varies from what the camera shows a lot of times in terms of "extension." Often I purposefully manipulate the camera to an angle that is more forgiving so that it looks cleaner to me.
So I guess we've come down to what makes me think your spinning is sloppy, not that it really is. Just the fact that you do many unorthodox transisions that require the pen to rotate in different planes, and the angle creating the illusion of "wiggles" instead of full rotations.
Both of which I can look past, but on first glance I definitely think it's detracting from the combo.
That being said, I'm far from being in the majority on most of my penspinning views, so unless you particularly agree with me, I wouldn't change anything based on my comments alone xD -
Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 06:13:34
look at yosky's video, he does a lot of full rotations completely facing the camera; this gives him a more polished look. some might even call this "Style"
in your video, because of the angle or rotation axis or w/e, the pen looks very static while the hand, due to excessive movement, looks very busy, giving the impression you're doing a lot of work accomplishing not much, people who talk about "style" a lot wants to see the effortless look -
Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 06:28:02QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 19 2010, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>look at yosky's video, he does a lot of full rotations completely facing the camera; this gives him a more polished look. some might even call this "Style"
in your video, because of the angle or rotation axis or w/e, the pen looks very static while the hand, due to excessive movement, looks very busy, giving the impression you're doing a lot of work accomplishing not much, people who talk about "style" a lot wants to see the effortless look
Yeah, I see what you mean. I'll try to work out a better angle for the next round. -
Date: Fri, Apr 23 2010 15:55:53
LITS, I like your spinning a lot, but what is it with the terrible angles?
Yosky, That was sick.
I can't decide. D: -
Date: Sun, Apr 25 2010 09:59:40
I voted for LITS because of his creativity and better linkages
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Date: Thu, Apr 29 2010 10:45:48
as we would say in staffing "your planes are fucked dude"
when spinning for an audience you want to show them a full plane, not a 45 degree angle at each plane. staffing we have horizontal, wall, 45 degree and uh front plane i think, its been a while since i studied fundies
essentially you want to be facing the audience, things in the horizontal plane (staff parallel to ground) shouldnt have much vertical sway to them, so the staff seems totally flat, only using the 45 degree plane for a second to switch in and out of horizontal
things in the front plane (staff parallel to chest) should show a complete circle to the audience, the more elipsed that is, the more side on you are and the plane looks crooked and ugly
the other planes arent important to the explanation but lets take horizontal as palm down and front as side palm
so you want to be facing the audience so making a circle with the pen in the front plane will make a circle for the audience. now because the pen is shorter than a staff theres more room for error but this means the angle should be on the palm side of your hand so that when you do a charge as flat to the hand as possible it makes a nice circle for the camera, the more the camera is in front of you, the more elipsed it is it and depending on how flat your charge is, the path may just look like a line. so thats no good because the point of conic tricks is the awesome looking round motion, when this turns into a vertical movement and shifting fingers its weird
now to move onto horizontal or palm down. now not so much on angle here, im gonna talk about how flat the pen needs to be spinning flat, because a 45 degree confuses the mind as to what plane the pen is spinning in, it mixes up tricks and is difficult to make a vertical > 45 degree > a vertical look good if there was no horizontal, it just looks like you fell out of the vertical plane. weak / incomplete palm down charges where the pen is sitting at 45 degrees or more vertical just looks uncontrolled and like you arent in control of your planes, basically im just saying you want to keep your palm down tricks horizontal and your side palm tricks vertical with minumum 45 degree work in there to link between them, itll clean up the combo a heap.
tl;dr: ur planes r fucked dude