UPSB v3
Tricks & Combos / [project][1.32] Simultaneous Tricks
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Date: Sat, May 1 2010 21:32:24
The idea here is to execute 2 tricks, or more, with one only pen (1P1H or 1P2H), and at the same time. This has nothing to do with hybrids, but maybe some simultaneous tricks can be Assisted Spinning (and/or vice-versa).
You can see some examples in this video:
Maybe we can find more tricks like these. -
Date: Sat, May 1 2010 21:42:51
wow
I think we have to redefine the notion of hybrid... because hybrids right now have a temporal definition, where you use a sequence of parts of tricks.
But there's no reason why hybrids cannot use parts of tricks together. -
Date: Sun, May 2 2010 04:21:57
I can't imagine a new definition of hybrid going very well, people use it too loosely as it is anyway, maybe another term should be used?
completely redefining a very common word won't go well at all -
Date: Sun, May 2 2010 05:12:05
basically here's whats going on
a trick is psc as we know. push-spin-catch.
simultaneous tricks can work at any of these phases. we can have simulatenous pushes, spins or catches.
the ~ notation denotes a sequence of psc parts linked together.
lindor and I discussed and we propose = as the sign for simultaneity. + is another possibility (maybe better).
if you say
(triangle pass 1'12 = halftap 12-12) [p] ~ halftap 12-12 [s][c] -> thats the first hybrid in the video
because the ~, ~>, >~, etc. doesn't allow to indicate precisely what part you want (can't specify just push with ~), it means we're forced to write [p] or [s] or [c].
What does a 1p1h simultaneous hybrid look like?
at the spin level, you can big spin tricks that spin on top of multiple fingers. Like a backaroudn or a shadow. those are simultaneous spins.
at the catch level, you can use the concept of morphing and making poses with fingers that are extraneous to the real catch. Example making a spiderspin catch while catching the pen in th palm. These are simultaneous catches
at the push level, it usually means having an extra finger helping with the push thats probably not needed. Example, I make a reverse pass 23-12 = thumbaround [p] ~ reverse pass 23-12. I use an extra thumb finger to push the pen in the pass, but its not necessary. these are simultaneous pushes.
the applications are much wider in 1p2h -
Date: Sun, May 2 2010 15:18:13QUOTE (Zombo @ May 2 2010, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>basically here's whats going on
a trick is psc as we know. push-spin-catch.
simultaneous tricks can work at any of these phases. we can have simulatenous pushes, spins or catches.
the ~ notation denotes a sequence of psc parts linked together.
lindor and I discussed and we propose = as the sign for simultaneity. + is another possibility (maybe better).
if you say
(triangle pass 1'12 = halftap 12-12) [p] ~ halftap 12-12 [s][c] -> thats the first hybrid in the video
because the ~, ~>, >~, etc. doesn't allow to indicate precisely what part you want (can't specify just push with ~), it means we're forced to write [p] or [s] or [c].
What does a 1p1h simultaneous hybrid look like?
at the spin level, you can big spin tricks that spin on top of multiple fingers. Like a backaroudn or a shadow. those are simultaneous spins.
at the catch level, you can use the concept of morphing and making poses with fingers that are extraneous to the real catch. Example making a spiderspin catch while catching the pen in th palm. These are simultaneous catches
at the push level, it usually means having an extra finger helping with the push thats probably not needed. Example, I make a reverse pass 23-12 = thumbaround [p] ~ reverse pass 23-12. I use an extra thumb finger to push the pen in the pass, but its not necessary. these are simultaneous pushes.
the applications are much wider in 1p2h
oh i completely agree with your notation system and the idea that this has to be definined and notated and stuff, but i disagree with the idea that it should be called a "hybrid' because that just seems intentiionally confusing, when we could just use a word like combination or simultaneous or something to avoid any problems -
Date: Sun, May 2 2010 15:25:59
well i would call it silmtaneous hybrids, cuz its certainly not a trick. its made of parts borrowed by other tricks, so it has to be a hybrid
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Date: Mon, May 3 2010 20:45:46
I think the "+" sign is better because of its implied meaning is more coherent: the addition of two or more tricks form an hybrid, in this case both are performed at the same time.
So some name like "simultaneous hybrids" or whatever should be ok.
Following the previous notation, the tricks in my video are something like:
1- Cont (Triangle Pass T11' + Halftap T1-T1)
2- Seasick TF + Tipped Charge TF
3- Spiderspin + Thumb'Index'Spin Reverse
IMO this opens a new dimension on PS, and a lot more of hybrids can be discovered. -
Date: Mon, May 3 2010 21:51:42
your notation is not complete freeman
because you must indicate which part of each trick is used at the same time, p s c. -
Date: Mon, May 3 2010 22:20:00
formal vs informal
you don't need psc in informal breakdowns -
Date: Mon, May 3 2010 22:31:33
ur losing too much information
because for the first trick for example
if the combination is at the spin level
then I do a halftap push normal then when it spins, I pu my index finger undernath to make it spin on it like triangle pass.
but here clearly teh push is with that index finger also -
Date: Wed, May 5 2010 12:08:39
Maybe coming up with a different notation for the informal naming?
Perhaps: push trick (other trick)
for freemans trick:
halftap T1-T1 (triangle pass T11')
tipped charge TF (seasick TF)
Spiderspin (TIS rev.)
I think the catch part is not that important for the informal naming because the linkage into the next trick and the slots which it lands in would tell us were the pen goes. -
Date: Thu, May 6 2010 23:58:12
I have not found that much simultaneous 1p1h tricks, i'm not sure there is a lot.
I've tried several things, like [Ta reverse + Magic reset] or, harder, [finger spin + thumbless korean sonic], after i saw your vid
Btw, congratz for the idea freeman =) -
Date: Fri, May 7 2010 08:23:34
I've come up with some stuff I'll film soon. Some are pretty dumb but it still has to be classified.
1. triangle pass + (topspin) (dumb nu applicable there are still some stuff that are not the normal standard where the topspin hand is plamup and the triangle pass hand is plamdown. It's hard to explain in words so I'll just film it to show you.)
2. around (topspin 1.0) (for this one the fingers are very weirdly positioned)
3. topspin (basketball spin)
4. topspin (basketball spin)
The rest I'm not really sure but could the 2 finger twirl be considered a simultaneous trick as an indexaround (index'around) There is no initial push though. Also the concept that eso came up with could also be incooperated here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhLd29_NEWc I'm not sure.
if so then
5. fingerpass (index'around)
I think I forgot a few and sorry for not using the naming zombo used i"m rushing for time. If what I'm typing out is confusing just wait for the video -
Date: Fri, May 7 2010 15:57:51
it seems to me there are 2 categories:
1- Orthogonal tricks: multiple tricks where the rotations work on different axis and are compatible with each other. Example: Tipped Charge + Seasick
2- Parallel tricks: multiple tricks where the rotation is the same and can be combined to reinforce the spin. Example: Triangle pass + halftap
In any case, you should write an article and include your vide. Explain the + notations, discuss the various ways to combine (psc levels). Maybe show examples of simultaneous tricks with 3+ tricks. -
Date: Fri, May 7 2010 19:43:01
Ok, seems that the idea has successed; I'll wait to see Lindor's and Hippo's tricks, we need to develop more this kind of hybrids, then I'll do an article.
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Date: Sat, May 8 2010 06:28:57
Hm, I don't know if I like calling it a hybrid.
A number of tricks can be combined together with two hands. While very few I've thought of can be done with one. The only one tricks I've thought of that combines two tricks and still manages to look decent is a combination of a seasick and a wiper or a seasick into a fl around rev.
Two handed simultaneous tricks (which is what i'll call it for now) on the other hand...there are plenty:
The first I've ever seen was done by knuckles. It's different from what freeman did, but I kind of see it as a simultaneous trick. It's a TA Rev (right hand) into a TA (left hand)
Second is a personal simultaneous trick: Handaround Reverse (right) into a Handaround (left)
Third: Backaround (right) into a backspin reverse (left). Here both hands are held together for the spin.
Fourth: Palmspin (right) into a thumbspin (left). Once again, here both hands are held together for the spin.
I can add more to the list, but you get the point. -
Date: Sat, May 8 2010 13:44:45
as soon as you say into, it implies sequential, which means it can be described in regular interrupted notation
TA Rev ~ T'A
Handaround Reverse ~ Hand'around
etc. -
Date: Sat, May 8 2010 22:01:21
Freeman's third mini-combo is sequential. It's more of a spiderspin with the one hand holding the other. The second is arguably sequential but more likely simultaneous (although it'd look way too out of place in a combo). The first is more of a triangle pass variation (which I've seen spinners like gollumsk8 do many of) than a simultaneous trick imo.
The simultaneous tricks concept, while possible and interesting in theory, I don't see many practical/available ideas.
I'd rather entertain ideas of coming up with some type of notation that dictates hand positioning. That'd help with doing a palmspin that transitions to the non-dominant hand and spins on both; or freeman's third mini-combo. It can also help with stalls or a few other ideas I've developed (like the running man).
Some possible applications of a "simultaneous trick(?)" -
Date: Mon, May 10 2010 00:09:28
I'll personnaly try to find some simultaneous tricks 1p1h. I wont look for 1p2h cause it's too "easy" to find simultaneous tricks like that.
Dont forget about 2p1h : sonic reverse 12-23 with 1 pen while doing sonic 34-23 with the other pen, etc. -
Date: Tue, May 11 2010 05:50:40QUOTE (lindor @ May 9 2010, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'll personnaly try to find some simultaneous tricks 1p1h. I wont look for 1p2h cause it's too "easy" to find simultaneous tricks like that.
Dont forget about 2p1h : sonic reverse 12-23 with 1 pen while doing sonic 34-23 with the other pen, etc.
Mmm, glad you brought that up. That's definitely a simultaneous trick. But I don't know if that'll ever get popular. It'd take a lot of work to execute such tricks confidently. -
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 07:47:47