UPSB v3
Board Comments / Mod tutorials approval
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Date: Tue, May 25 2010 19:52:50
Okay, So I've seen a lot of mods that deserve to be approved, and aren't, and then if a famous modder comes out with something, it's usually approved pretty quick.
I was thinking that UPSB members could decide if a pen deserves approval or not; maybe have a poll like function, and if it reaches a certain percent, it gets approved? just my thoughts. -
Date: Tue, May 25 2010 20:42:34
Okay, well, I haven't approved too many tutorials, but when I do.. it's as you said, it's a famous modder's tutorial cause usually, it's safe to say that people would want it approved. For the other tutorials, I avoid approving them cause one, it's not my area of focus (moderating wise), and two, I don't want to make the wrong judgment call and then have people complain about why that tutorial was approved and not theirs.
I like your idea though, makes things a lot easier (at least for me) to figure out which tutorials I should approve or not. K4S and Outlander, two of the pen mod moderators, aren't online that much anymore so I guess the rest of us should start filling in their shoes a bit. Stevie's still around, but it's hard for one person to do all the work.
I dont' wanna be the only one making this decision lol, but personally, I like the idea...but I would wait for the zombo approval stamp before this actually happens. -
Date: Wed, May 26 2010 06:05:28
Personally I like the idea that a group of people can help decide if a mod tutorial because it take some work load of the moderators but I don't agree that it should be allowed to the entire UPSB. My reason being that there are some that like to mess around with the poll system and those who have not much knowledge of pen modding (like myself) who might vote the wrong way without knowing. I think perhaps it would be better if a selected group of people get to decide like the more prominent modders (TEK, Guitrum, imatt, etc.). Another suggestion could be that the pen modding RD group could take the vote.
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Date: Wed, May 26 2010 07:41:40QUOTE (Hippo2626 @ May 26 2010, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Personally I like the idea that a group of people can help decide if a mod tutorial because it take some work load of the moderators but I don't agree that it should be allowed to the entire UPSB. My reason being that there are some that like to mess around with the poll system and those who have not much knowledge of pen modding (like myself) who might vote the wrong way without knowing. I think perhaps it would be better if a selected group of people get to decide like the more prominent modders (TEK, Guitrum, imatt, etc.). Another suggestion could be that the pen modding RD group could take the vote.
Most of the people here will know what kind of mod is good or not... mods will probably not get a 100% vote of approval, and so that would mean that there are people voting the other choice. If you vote the other choice, it's not that big of a problem, everyone else's votes should be enough to overwhelm that. If the votes cannot overwhelm mistake votes, then there isn't enough approval for it anyway.
And in the end, it's always the moderator's decision to approve or not. If the vote for approval is 60%, and there is say 75% vote of approval... but the moderator doesn't feel like the tutorial is formatted properly or clear enough... we dont' have to make that approval decision. We may be bugged to approve it by the modder's friends, but we'll have reasons for not approving it and that'll be the end of that. On the other hand, if the vote for approval is 60%, and there is 40% vote of approval, because of hating on the modder or something... if we think that the mod is good and the tutorial is clean and clear, we will still have the ability to approve it.
Being a mod, we can be harrassed, for the lack of a better term, or pressured to do some things, but we're all knowledgeable enough to make the right decision. And as for bias, yes, bias exists as we are all human, but we do try our best to suppress those biases =\
Sooo.. don't worry about making the right choice or wrong choice, if the mod deserves to be approved, one or two wrong choices won't affect that decision. And also, It'll be more work to have people discuss the approval of every mod, so I don't think having prominent modders or the RD talk about it is that good of an idea :\ -
Date: Wed, May 26 2010 07:57:03QUOTE (JC @ May 26 2010, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Most of the people here will know what kind of mod is good or not... mods will probably not get a 100% vote of approval, and so that would mean that there are people voting the other choice. If you vote the other choice, it's not that big of a problem, everyone else's votes should be enough to overwhelm that. If the votes cannot overwhelm mistake votes, then there isn't enough approval for it anyway.
And in the end, it's always the moderator's decision to approve or not. If the vote for approval is 60%, and there is say 75% vote of approval... but the moderator doesn't feel like the tutorial is formatted properly or clear enough... we dont' have to make that approval decision. We may be bugged to approve it by the modder's friends, but we'll have reasons for not approving it and that'll be the end of that. On the other hand, if the vote for approval is 60%, and there is 40% vote of approval, because of hating on the modder or something... if we think that the mod is good and the tutorial is clean and clear, we will still have the ability to approve it.
Being a mod, we can be harrassed, for the lack of a better term, or pressured to do some things, but we're all knowledgeable enough to make the right decision. And as for bias, yes, bias exists as we are all human, but we do try our best to suppress those biases =\
Sooo.. don't worry about making the right choice or wrong choice, if the mod deserves to be approved, one or two wrong choices won't affect that decision. And also, It'll be more work to have people discuss the approval of every mod, so I don't think having prominent modders or the RD talk about it is that good of an idea :\
Wouldn't this beat the purpose of the Nations point of letting the public decide on the approval? I agree that it okay to not be unanimous, but I was thinking that having a more professional group of people look at the mods and discuss its validity for approval. The mod doesn't have to decide at all but they would have a say in the discussion. A new thread could be started in the RD pen mod section (suggestion) for such discussions.
I won't harass you don't worry!
By the way I just saw Roxis lurking here, Good thing??? -
Date: Wed, May 26 2010 09:25:03QUOTE (Hippo2626 @ May 26 2010, 03:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Wouldn't this beat the purpose of the Nations point of letting the public decide on the approval? I agree that it okay to not be unanimous, but I was thinking that having a more professional group of people look at the mods and discuss its validity for approval. The mod doesn't have to decide at all but they would have a say in the discussion. A new thread could be started in the RD pen mod section (suggestion) for such discussions.
I won't harass you don't worry!
By the way I just saw Roxis lurking here, Good thing???
It's just like how beta-moderators go through a voting process. There's public votes, but in the end, the rest of the moderators/admins decide whether or not the new beta mod becomes a regular mod.
Public votes play a role in our decision, and this would help us more quickly review the tutorials and mods, but in the end.. we make the decision.
The problem with a professional group is that it's a lot of work for them; and a lot more work is putting into approving a single tutorial than is necessary. And then the problem with an unprofessional group is as you've said, possible mistakes in the voting. But I'd rather have this unprofessional group do the voting process and help speed up the moderator's job -- which though, isn't to say that the public decides by themselves entirely. The public votes speed up our jobs, not decide what we have to do.
There are ~30 tutorials per page in the pending tutorial section X 10 pages -- that's 300 tutorials you intend for this "professional team" to review? First off, who would even want to do that... that's a lottt of work -.- And okay, so it would be best to approve the ones people are more focused on recently... how is the team to decide that for the public? And that I guess can be started by having all future threads include a poll, and we'll just finish up reviewing the old threads one by one by ourselves.
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So in summary, this professional team imo, won't work.
The voting is a good idea, but the public doesn't decide the outcome by themselves. It helps for us to see which mods are generally favored and which ones aren't, which will speed up our reviewing process.... but the public vote won't decide the decision once it hits a certain percentage. If it does hit that percentage though, I think there'll probably be a at least 90% chance it'll be approved.
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And Rorix is always lurking here around this time
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Date: Wed, May 26 2010 12:16:36QUOTE (JC @ May 26 2010, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's just like how beta-moderators go through a voting process. There's public votes, but in the end, the rest of the moderators/admins decide whether or not the new beta mod becomes a regular mod.
Public votes play a role in our decision, and this would help us more quickly review the tutorials and mods, but in the end.. we make the decision.
The problem with a professional group is that it's a lot of work for them; and a lot more work is putting into approving a single tutorial than is necessary. And then the problem with an unprofessional group is as you've said, possible mistakes in the voting. But I'd rather have this unprofessional group do the voting process and help speed up the moderator's job -- which though, isn't to say that the public decides by themselves entirely. The public votes speed up our jobs, not decide what we have to do.
There are ~30 tutorials per page in the pending tutorial section X 10 pages -- that's 300 tutorials you intend for this "professional team" to review? First off, who would even want to do that... that's a lottt of work -.- And okay, so it would be best to approve the ones people are more focused on recently... how is the team to decide that for the public? And that I guess can be started by having all future threads include a poll, and we'll just finish up reviewing the old threads one by one by ourselves.
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So in summary, this professional team imo, won't work.
The voting is a good idea, but the public doesn't decide the outcome by themselves. It helps for us to see which mods are generally favored and which ones aren't, which will speed up our reviewing process.... but the public vote won't decide the decision once it hits a certain percentage. If it does hit that percentage though, I think there'll probably be a at least 90% chance it'll be approved.
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And Rorix is always lurking here around this time
I understand. Thanks. I was thinking that the researchers could take it seeing as the pen modding section hasn't been very active much. (No offence to the pen modding researchers) -
Date: Wed, May 26 2010 14:39:42
If an unapprovated tutorial gets 10+ thanks then I think a mod should seriously "review the review" and consider moving it.
but that can cause problem of ppl begging for thanks. -
Date: Thu, May 27 2010 18:38:24QUOTE (Zombo @ May 26 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If an unapprovated tutorial gets 10+ thanks then I think a mod should seriously "review the review" and consider moving it.
but that can cause problem of ppl begging for thanks.
so maybe add a function that for tutorials?
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Date: Thu, May 27 2010 21:46:49QUOTE (Nation @ May 27 2010, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>so maybe add a function that for tutorials?
that sentence made no sense -
Date: Fri, May 28 2010 14:06:01QUOTE (Zombo @ May 27 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>that sentence made no sense
like have a poll that if it goes past a certain percentage then it's automatically approved? -
Date: Fri, May 28 2010 14:11:46QUOTE (Nation @ May 28 2010, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>like have a poll that if it goes past a certain percentage then it's automatically approved?
well as i said in my other posts, i don't really think that there should be any automatic approval because of a percentage is reached =\
having a goal percentage would help speed up a mod's job with approving though, but it can't be all left up to the poll numbers
people making tutorials can put up their own poll though, and we can use that to go through approving tuts faster -- making a feature to have automatic polls set up seems like a lot more work than it's worth anyway, when people can put up their own polls if they really want to -
Date: Sat, May 29 2010 04:53:14QUOTE (JC @ May 26 2010, 04:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The voting is a good idea, but the public doesn't decide the outcome by themselves. It helps for us to see which mods are generally favored and which ones aren't, which will speed up our reviewing process.... but the public vote won't decide the decision once it hits a certain percentage. If it does hit that percentage though, I think there'll probably be a at least 90% chance it'll be approved.
but why not?QUOTE (Nation @ May 28 2010, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>like have a poll that if it goes past a certain percentage then it's automatically approved?
I really agree with you. At the top of each tutorial just a have a poll. and say it needs at least 20 votes before anyting happens. For example, when 2 people vote for the tutorial to be aprroved, it won't be approved automatically untill there is like 20 votes.
Maybe a 65% approval rate (low because of joke votes).I think it should be automatic, but as JC said the moderater is always able to make tutorials with low approval ratings, approved, and vis versa (even if they have already been previously calssified by voting). This will save time for the mods but will still give them power. Some bad tutorials may get approved and vis versa but overall I like the system. AlthoughI think the whole point of this was to take out the biasness (not a word) out of approving tutorials, but people will still vote biasly (again, not a word) based on who the modder is
.Which is where Hippo's idea comes in. Althoug, I find it find extremely time consuming and un-practical.
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Date: Sat, May 29 2010 04:58:59QUOTE (Kirby @ May 29 2010, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but why not?
people will spam their thread in the shoutbox and stuff to beg for votes in their favor, and some people will not care so much to take it seriously and will just grant them their favor and vote for approval
begging for votes/thanks/etc.. is always a problem, and if there becomes too many illegitimate votes, mods shouldn't be forced to approve them just because it went past a certain percentage -
Date: Sat, May 29 2010 05:05:35QUOTE (JC @ May 28 2010, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>people will spam their thread in the shoutbox and stuff to beg for votes in their favor, and some people will not care so much to take it seriously and will just grant them their favor and vote for approval
begging for votes/thanks/etc.. is always a problem, and if there becomes too many illegitimate votes, mods shouldn't be forced to approve them just because it went past a certain percentage
These are all cons, but I think that the system is overall better than worse. And with the "people wont care enough and will just grant approval" (not word-for-word), this may be true with the decent/border-line tutorials. But, I wouldn't think many, if any people would grant approval to a shitty tutorial because they dont care. Therefore, at least the shitty tutorials shouldn't be approved.. And with the "mods shouldn't be forced to approve", I said they should be apporved automatically but then you can always change the decision. so if you think its a terrible tutorial and you think people 'joke-voted' then you can always change it. -
Date: Sat, May 29 2010 05:19:45QUOTE (Kirby @ May 29 2010, 01:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>These are all cons, but I think that the system is overall better than worse. And with the "people wont care enough and will just grant approval" (not word-for-word), this may be true with the decent/border-line tutorials. But, I wouldn't think many, if any people would grant approval to a shitty tutorial because they dont care. Therefore, at least the shitty tutorials shouldn't be approved.. And with the "mods shouldn't be forced to approve", I said they should be apporved automatically but then you can always change the decision. so if you think its a terrible tutorial and you think people 'joke-voted' then you can always change it.
If a tutorial is good, then there should be no worry about a mod not approving it after it hit the percentage. Like I said before, if a tutorial hits a percentage, there'll be an at least 90% chance that it will be approved. The remaining 10% is the deal with the ones that weren't suppose to be approved in the first place.
With automatic approval, well, first off, I don't know how feasible it is to have the forum move things automatically in the first place. The only form of "automatic approval" would be for mods to see the percentage and then automatically approve it. And then we'd have to go back and disapprove anything that was wrongly approved of later on if we catch a mistake. So then of course..it would've been better to not approve it in the first place, which goes back to my original thing where we approve most of them fairly automatically, but we still have to do a quick review and make sure that we don't just approve everything cause it reached the percentage.
For the decent/border line tutorials... if they're actually not good enough, but they got enough votes... it really depends on the situation on which we would decide whether or not they should be getting approved. Like if there is a pretty decent variation of a KT out or something... everyone votes approve cause it looks nice... but in reality, it doesn't deserve to be approved cause it's nothing new, it's just a KT with a few minor changes. Something like that would not get approved even though it has enough votes -- but again, it depends on the situation, if the variation is large enough, it could get approved.
A lotta things sometimes just depends on the situation, and even though votes are nice and could help our job, we have to make things set in a way that we can account for loopholes, unexpected things, mistakes, etc... I don't think it's possible to get the forum to automatically approve it once it hits a percentage (gotta ask zombo about that though), and then go back and unapprove joke tutorials that somehow made it through.
--On top of that, every time we approve a new tutorial, we add it to Outlander's list of approved tutorials by hand. If the system automatically approves things, there's no way we can keep track which new tutorials needs to be updated onto his list... only way to do that is to approve it ourselves and then add it to the list right afterwards. -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 15:50:55QUOTE (JC @ May 28 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If a tutorial is good, then there should be no worry about a mod not approving it after it hit the percentage. Like I said before, if a tutorial hits a percentage, there'll be an at least 90% chance that it will be approved. The remaining 10% is the deal with the ones that weren't suppose to be approved in the first place.
With automatic approval, well, first off, I don't know how feasible it is to have the forum move things automatically in the first place. The only form of "automatic approval" would be for mods to see the percentage and then automatically approve it. And then we'd have to go back and disapprove anything that was wrongly approved of later on if we catch a mistake. So then of course..it would've been better to not approve it in the first place, which goes back to my original thing where we approve most of them fairly automatically, but we still have to do a quick review and make sure that we don't just approve everything cause it reached the percentage.
For the decent/border line tutorials... if they're actually not good enough, but they got enough votes... it really depends on the situation on which we would decide whether or not they should be getting approved. Like if there is a pretty decent variation of a KT out or something... everyone votes approve cause it looks nice... but in reality, it doesn't deserve to be approved cause it's nothing new, it's just a KT with a few minor changes. Something like that would not get approved even though it has enough votes -- but again, it depends on the situation, if the variation is large enough, it could get approved.
A lotta things sometimes just depends on the situation, and even though votes are nice and could help our job, we have to make things set in a way that we can account for loopholes, unexpected things, mistakes, etc... I don't think it's possible to get the forum to automatically approve it once it hits a percentage (gotta ask zombo about that though), and then go back and unapprove joke tutorials that somehow made it through.
--On top of that, every time we approve a new tutorial, we add it to Outlander's list of approved tutorials by hand. If the system automatically approves things, there's no way we can keep track which new tutorials needs to be updated onto his list... only way to do that is to approve it ourselves and then add it to the list right afterwards.
*cough*thnikkwhitecomssa*cough*
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Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 06:33:47QUOTE (Nation @ May 31 2010, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>*cough*thnikkwhitecomssa*cough*
well, i've never been in charge of approving tutorials so i mean, i dunno how that got approved
probably cause it caters to people with smaller hands so that variation was enough? tbh, i really dunno -
Date: Wed, Jun 2 2010 19:01:26QUOTE (JC @ Jun 1 2010, 12:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well, i've never been in charge of approving tutorials so i mean, i dunno how that got approved
probably cause it caters to people with smaller hands so that variation was enough? tbh, i really dunno
nahnah, it needs to be approved -
Date: Thu, Jun 3 2010 20:09:12QUOTE (JC @ May 31 2010, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well, i've never been in charge of approving tutorials so i mean, i dunno how that got approved
probably cause it caters to people with smaller hands so that variation was enough? tbh, i really dunno
It follows all of the guidelines of approval so I'm pretty sure nothing else is necessary. -
Date: Thu, Jun 3 2010 22:07:31QUOTE (Thnikk @ Jun 3 2010, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It follows all of the guidelines of approval so I'm pretty sure nothing else is necessary.
again, i'm not familiar with the guidelines of approval, thought the mod needed to be fairly new and not just a variation -- cause then a well made tutorial that's jsut of a MX variation would all get approved
but dunno, guess not i don't really get what goes on with them really :\ (but luckily, we got iMatt now!)