UPSB v3
General Discussion / World Cup '10 - Post-tournament discussion
-
Date: Sun, May 30 2010 15:40:29
Use this thread to talk about the tournament in general.
Here are some guiding questions:
1) Who is the MVP?
2) Favourite video?
3) Most surprising spinner?
4) Most disappointing team/spinner?
And now questions to improve the next WC, which is World Cup 2012:
5) What did you like about this WC?
6) What did you not like?
7) Do you want to keep the theme system?
8) What themes should be added, what themes removed?
9) Do you want to keep the judging system?
10) Is the WC too long, too short or perfect length?
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate? -
Date: Sun, May 30 2010 16:03:03
1) Who is the MVP?
a: I would go with stuhl due to the fact that he won in every round.
2) Favourite video?
a: ponkotu in SF cuz it defeated me
3) Most surprising spinner?
a: BaiMai for sure
4) Most disappointing team/spinner?
a: dunno...
5) What did you like about this WC?
a: It makes me more famous?
6) What did you not like?
a: everything
7) Do you want to keep the theme system?
a: yeah, it seems like all the judges prefer this system as well
8) What themes should be added, what themes removed?
a: dunno, maybe speed
9) Do you want to keep the judging system?
a: errm probably
10) Is the WC too long, too short or perfect length?
a: this tour took approx 5 months which is a perfect length for me,
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate?
a: absolutely, as long as it ONLY depends on combo itself -
Date: Sun, May 30 2010 16:27:11
1) Who is the MVP?
BaiMai
2) Favourite video?
Sister_r Round 1
3) Most surprising spinner?
BaiMai
4) Most disappointing team/spinner?
jeb could do better, only by getting correct transition in doubles =s !
5) What did you like about this WC?
real team spirit, strategy, the use of theme
6) What did you not like?
too subjective judgements? (rationality)
7) Do you want to keep the theme system?
yes. very intersting
8) What themes should be added, what themes removed?
spinless and b/e , 2 themes si much => choose one =D i'll add something like "rythm" or "tempo" (use of counters or spin on music?) , (and why not "wipers"
)
9) Do you want to keep the judging system? yeah but i think all the boards must vite until the end of the tournament! that's important to have a world overview!
10) Is the WC too long, too short or perfect length? with qualif round, november to june was a bit long. i think we could remove some weeks
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate? yep, very. being able to do a good collab is as important as fulfill a theme or a double imo -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 01:33:12
Here are some alternatives to the themes system worth considering. The main problem of themes is that even though the managers select their spinners based on themes, the spinners feel pressured to focus on the theme and it limits their spinning. Also there is some luck element with themes drawing.
1) Different judging criteria for each battle: instead of giving a random theme to each battle, we say that the technical 1vs1 battle will be judged more on execution, difficulty, structure and linkages. The artistic 1vs1 battle will be judged more on originality.
2) Lineup selection by round: Both 1vs1 have no theme. One team reveals the name of the spinner who plays in the first 1vs1. The other team replies with the spinner that will fight that guy in that 1vs1, plus they name the spinner who will playing in the other 1vs1. The first team then responds with the opponent for that other spinner. So now both 1vs1 are set and the double is decided simultaneously like normal.
3) Different values for each battle: The double battle is worth 3 points, the first 1vs1 is worth 2 points, the second 1vs1 is worth 1 point. That means winning the double battle guarantee a draw, but you still need to win 2 out of 3 to win the whole match.
4) Battle by collab: just do the whole tournament using collabs.
Let me know if you like any of these better than the themes. -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 01:38:01QUOTE (Gisele 8 @ May 30 2010, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>6) What did you not like?
too subjective judgements? (rationality)
I agree, the thing I dislike most is lack of a structured scoring system. -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 01:41:56QUOTE (strat1227 @ May 30 2010, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I agree, the thing I dislike most is lack of a structured scoring system.
yet this is the most fairly judged tournament out of the 4 so far, so whats teh problem -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 03:13:51
based on what?
-
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 04:51:45QUOTE (strat1227 @ May 30 2010, 11:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>based on what?
based on general opinion -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 05:05:28
1) Who is the MVP?
Stuhl or BaiMai
2) Favourite video?
Littleboy Round-forgotten
3) Most surprising spinner?
I want to say ponkuto since nobody expected that stuff he did.
4) Most disappointing team/spinner?
not gonna comment
And now questions to improve the next WC, which is World Cup 2012:
5) What did you like about this WC?
Themes and overall entertainment value.
6) What did you not like?
i don't know hmm, figure out a way every community can participate.
7) Do you want to keep the theme system?
that made WC good.
8) What themes should be added, what themes removed?
maybe change/remove variety and speed..
9) Do you want to keep the judging system?
wat
10) Is the WC too long, too short or perfect length?
Seems alright, although the time in between new clips can feel looooooooooooooooooong
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate?
it was awesome. -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 05:21:13
i think both strat and zombo have fair points
on zombo's side, i think it had the least surprise victories because of judging
then again, like strat said in the podcast, a 7-0 win for peem is slightly misleading
ofcourse there are comments to read through, but at a quick glance, it looks like a total clean-up
there is the point that structured scores (ie. x/10 for creativity, x/10 for control etc.) can be judged differently between judges
maybe a combination of the two? you have a set of criterea, each weighted accordingly, and the judges will choose who was better in each critereon
onto more general stuff:
1) mvp i think goes to baimai, as does most surprising spinner. i went with the general assumption that thpsc was filled with peem clones, but this has opened my eyes
also, this win does firmly place thpsc as the strongest board in pen spinning, holding both the WT and WC crowns (and not just depending on peem to do it)
2) favourite video: for solos, anything that stuhl did. it was really amazing the level of creativity as well as control of the slow speed that he displayed.
with doubles, it would have to be thpsc's finals doubles. superbly edited, and great spinning from both the spinners
4) most disappointing would be JEB, especially in the doubles, and i think many people share this view
5) the themes i think were the most important part in keeping my interest, along with the strategy that came with the themes
6) JEB doubles (lol)
apart from that, i think it ran really smoothly. i would probably like a more structured scoring system, but there is no doubt that this method works perfectly well.
7) i like the theme system. it both puts "compatible" spinners together, and forces the necessity of a broad range of skills within the team. i thought thai would have a hard time because of the creativity theme, but the inclusion of baimai was a good choice for thpsc, and a perfect example of why i liked the theme system
8) i pretty much content with the themes of this WC.
9) suggestions have be scattered around this post
10) i think it was a good length for the audience, as well as the spinners. i didn't think most spinners ran out of steam towards the end
11) i think the collab qualification was a good idea, as it slims down the pool, so the length was perfect. its also a good way to judge the unity/editing skill of the team as well
i've loved this WC, being the first tornament that i've fully watched (was there for WT, but didn't fully get involved)
again, it might have been because of the themes, or the fact that the quality of spinning was brilliant, but i've really enjoyed this tornament
thanks to the organisers, judges and spinners for putting on such a great show -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 05:46:19QUOTE (Zombo @ May 30 2010, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>based on general opinion
I agree with this. This was a very well-judged tournament. Out of all the tournaments I've been able to observe/participate in, I feel that the judging was very well done--if not the best. There weren't any decisions that I felt were unfair and needed to be disputed.
I believe the theme association really helped and enjoyed to see themes put into practice. We see a lot of out of the norm spinning and one can say that themes inhibit but I say themes really brought a lot more to the tournament. It really spiced things up.
1) Who is the MVP?
Stuhl or BaiMai or Ponkotu (their boards would have done much worse without them, especially JEB imo, so I'd probably give Ponkotu the MVP)
2) Favourite video?
Ponkotu R2
3) Most surprising spinner?
Ponkotu and Baimai. I never knew they were so...amazing till the WC.
4) Most disappointing team/spinner?
JEB, I feel that they would have been better replaced by FPSB or UPSB.
And now questions to improve the next WC, which is World Cup 2012:
5) What did you like about this WC?
The themes. It made the WC.
6) What did you not like?
No UPSB and FPSB. Also, the waiting's always annoying but that's natural. I'd also prefer if there was a way to have all boards participate.
7) Do you want to keep the theme system?
Of course! Can't do without it.
8) What themes should be added, what themes removed?
Get rid of speed definitely, that theme produced the worst combos. Maybe also add restrictions in for themes? For example, no simple throw passes for double vids. Another idea would be to have bonuses if one accomplishes a certain checklist, such as creating a new hybrid/trick for a creativity-themed round. Just some ideas.
9) Do you want to keep the judging system?
Seems to have done very well so far.
10) Is the WC too long, too short or perfect length?
Decent, but waiting's always annoying.
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate?
It's a good idea--though I'm iffy since fpsb and upsb didn't get in and I think both really should have been in it. -
Date: Mon, May 31 2010 07:29:32
1) Who is the MVP?
Baimai, if it wasn't for him, i really don't know if thpsc would've won as solidly as they did...or at all. Ponkotu/stuhl were also both very important too... from this wc, we can see how much we value those with creativity since those 3 seemed to be the stars of this WC and have gotten the most attention.
2) Favourite video?
Stuhl's video with the car... i think. Either that or skydigital + nia's tag.
3) Most surprising spinner?
Baimai... stuhl/ponkotu i knew were good spinners before this wc, but baimai really pulled through this year.
4) Most disappointing team/spinner?
Team- JEB, although i'm surprised they got 4th place...
Spinner- Minwoo, I thought he'd play a bigger role being that he got 2nd place during WT09... but guess not. Dunno if you consider that disappointing or not.. =\
----------------------------------------------
5) What did you like about this WC?
Qualification round shortened the amount of rounds that were necessary (I think?), so i think shortening the WC overall was nice... didn't exhaust the spinners out as much as they might've been i think.. and some spinners would've become extremely exhausted of ideas if it went on any further (i think baimai was out of ideas for his battle against ponkotu)
Themes made the judging pretty clear too, so there wasn't much controversy or dispute over which qualities of the combo were worth focusing on more...since the themes provided that focus for us.
The whole blocking thing also was nice, gave this tournament some strategy like someone else said.. it gave a bigger role to the managers. For the final round, I think bpsc might've had a much higher chance at beating thpsc if their manager had blocked the themes better. I dont' remember exactly what theme they blocked and what was the other choices, but from what i remember at the time, I think i felt like the manager could've done a better job which brought to my attention the large role that the manager has in this WC.
6) What did you not like?
nothing really, it went really smoothly
7) Do you want to keep the theme system?
yes, it helped judging a lot... if you have speed as the theme, you can pretty much compare the speeds and make a decision almost on that -- of course the rest of the combo was important too, but having themes made judging a whole lot easier
-and it seemed that our decisions were alright too for the most part, since there didn't seem to be much dispute over them
8) What themes should be added, what themes removed?
dunno, i can't think of anything right now
control seemed a bit iffy... don't know if that should really be removed or not, but i think people were confused on what that meant -- maybe during wc12, if that's still a theme and we keep the theme thing, it'll be alright
9) Do you want to keep the judging system?
yes -- another possibility (didn't read zombo's other possibilities that thoroughly so i might repeat something) is coming up with a criteria, and adding theme as one of the criteria (dunno how large of a portion..)
smoothness- 20%
difficulty- 20%
creativity- 20%
theme- 40%
---that's just an example i guess, but that has to be worked out some more, or a lot more themes have to be added since smoothness/difficulty shouldn't appear twice in the criteria.. (?)
10) Is the WC too long, too short or perfect length?
I think the length was just fine
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate?
Yes, I think having 8 communities qualify was an appropriate amount and it helped cut out a good amount of rounds which cut down the length of the tournament to a more comfortable length -
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 00:11:20
1) Who is the MVP?
Stuhl. I agree with Baimai. I would have said that in WC08 too.
2) Favourite video?
Sister_R in his battle vs. thumbskiller. The best Clip he ever made.
3) Most surprising spinner?
Stuhl and Peem. They surprised me every round with new linkages, techniques and whatsoever. It was really amazing and spinners like these two are the reason why I'm looking forward to the next major penspinning tournament.
4) Most disappointing team/spinner?
JEB.
And now questions to improve the next WC, which is World Cup 2012:
5) What did you like about this WC?
Like I said - the worldcup gives spinners motivation to try something new, to give everything. Due to the fact that collabs are released so frequently, the quality often drops. Spinners have no motivation to put real effort in their clips. But then comes the worldcup and everyone is like "I need to invent something new in order to win" and I'm like "... great 8) I want to see that".
As a participant I liked it that people talked about my spinning and gave me hints on how to improve myself.
6) What did you not like?
The qualification Stage. I talked about this with zombo already... To keep it short: The JEB-Elite (who did most likely not intend to participate) made a video to qualify some other dudes. (Inb4 "You are just disappointed that you idols weren't in the team!" - I am not. It was obvious from the beginning that they aren't going to take part. This is about somthing entirely different.)
9) Do you want to keep the judging system?
It was much better than in '09. The idea of the numerical score was a disaster and the numbers varied so much that I wondered if everyone understood the criteria correctly. In a perfect judging system, every qualified judge would give the same score (much like in diving). Maybe it is worth a try to go back to a numerical system but specify the criteria a bit more strict. Then however penspinning is a very new kind of art and still in developement. It would be wrong to compare it with something like diving, where people just have to execute the same moves over and over in a perfect way.
In the end I'm satisfied with the current system, even though the criteria and their weight may be still not specific enough ._. I was confused by the comments in my match vs. Kr4zy where one side was like "Theme is more important" and the others were like "Difficulty made up for the lack of smoothness". I don't know who is right - and thats the problem!
10) Is the WC too long, too short or perfect length?
Too long. The number of rounds is OK but the judging time should be reduced (even though it may be difficult to get the results faster. Often it was the case that results were missing and the deadline was fully used.)
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate?
I can't think of any other solution. -
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 00:18:21
@Taichi
Yeah, I thought the qualification system was a good idea but the fact that JEB disappointed so much proves that there's a flaw in the system. Imo, even if some of the JEB idols participated, I doubt they'd do much better. JEB's too style-centric. I'm surprised they got 4th. I was hoping they'd prove me wrong but alas...
Can't wait for the next major tourny! -
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 01:22:42QUOTEKr4zy where one side was like "Theme is more important" and the others were like "Difficulty made up for the lack of smoothness".
in your battle I think it was a close battle. some people think that your combo was not difficult enough to compensate for lack of smoothness which happens to the theme. Like I said, the theme is a stronger criteria than any other single criteria, but all other criteria is more important than theme. That means if overall the combo is better then it should win. If it ends up being the theme vs a single criteria like difficulty, then if the single criteria different is not enough to overcome the theme, then the person with the good theme should win. Obviously different judges had different opinions on much the difficulty difference was. -
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 15:29:40
Stuhl or BaiMai should battle for MVP!
'No theme' would be a good theme for every round next time, that cannot be blocked. -
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 16:30:25
Stuhl last round combo was just perfect. Kin was cool too
-
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 21:55:14
2) Favourite video?
kin's Variety combo in round 3. Perfect.
7) Do you want to keep the theme system?
Definitely. It made the WC10 very very interesting.
8) What themes should be added, what themes removed?
- Speed may have produced bad combos in this tournament, but I think it should be kept. Darcy vs Gisele8 showed that the fastest combo is not by default the winning one. In the future, spinners will first have to consider the balance speed-execution they choose.
- I would combine two of the following themes into one: difficulty, control and smoothness, or even have two combined themes difficulty/control and control/smoothness.
- How about adding a theme unit "No Theme" which can be drawn in the pool of all themes? The spinners and managers might be happy about a battle without restrictions. I agree to Mats there. Though, if it is treated as a "regular" theme, it should be blockable too.
9) Do you want to keep the judging system?
Yes.
11) Was the qualification system by collab appropriate?
Yes. Maybe the flaw taichi pointed out can be corrected while keeping this system.
+) Some spinners would like more participating teams. This may have already been discussed, but what about a WC12 with 4 pools, 16 boards, and 4 teams like this year who advance to the finals? The length, format and number of rounds could be kept. The plus of communication does not seem too big to me, and 1 week for judging seems to be enough too. -
Date: Tue, Jun 1 2010 22:01:46
I think the problem with only the winner of each pool advancing is that the 3rd round battles loses a lot of interest, because it will be impossible for any 0-2 team to advance. that's why top 2 out of 4 is more exciting but the problem is that you would have 8 teams advancing, which means 6 rounds instead of 5. I'm not sure if people can survive an extra round.
also dont forget that you double the number of videos which is a lot of work for judges. -
Date: Thu, Jun 3 2010 11:14:13
I think the number of rounds is already at its limit and should not be increased to 6. The number of boards involved was also enough. No need to expand the tournament for at least a few more years (as I expect more boards will come then).
Maybe there should be too many judges. Try to get 50% more than required. The first judges results to get in are the ones that are taken. That way, judging time can be reduced and results should still be in. -
Date: Thu, Jun 3 2010 11:38:09QUOTE (Mats @ Jun 3 2010, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think the number of rounds is already at its limit and should not be increased to 6. The number of boards involved was also enough. No need to expand the tournament for at least a few more years (as I expect more boards will come then).
I agree. If a single tournament lasts too long, the audience will eventually lose interest and the participants lose motivation. If thats the case, the tournament itself would lose credibility and importance. That should be avoided at all cost.
But as it was already mentioned : There are only a few ways to reduce the time
a) Reduce the time of the single rounds (difficult for the participants and judges)
b) Reduce the number of rounds (fewer slots, some boards might not be able to take part).
c) Change the elimination system (For example by only letting the 2 best of each pool instead of 4 advance.)
So whats the priority?