UPSB v3
Philosophy / A combo is only as good as its weakest trick
-
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 02:03:07
So while doing my ap chem outline, it said "a reaction is only as fast as its slowest step" and this reminded me of a bond is only as strong as its weakest link and a team is only as strong as its weakest player and etc...
so does this apply to penspinning as well
will one really bad mistake in a combo make an otherwise amazing combo worse than an only mediocre combo?
or is that first combo still better cause overall the skill of the spinner is much higher than that of the second spinner, and that mistake was just a fluke
discuss -
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 02:16:13
a mistake is fail.
that's what i think at least.
but if it's like a battle, i will still look at the breakdowns and theme. -
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 02:41:29
i think that this will apply more to real life battles rather than online ones where one could just retape it if he/she made a mistake
-
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 03:15:31
What counts as a weak trick? A trick done badly? Bad linkage?
-
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 04:10:03
I think weakest refers to a trick/linkage done badly.
But, I think a combo is only as good as what the viewer thinks, since everyone has different preferences. -
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 05:06:52
Or is it the tricks that you cannot do very well?
-
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 05:13:26
hmm I think it's probably true.
it's easy to check.
would you really give a video with a drop in it for an official battle/collab? -
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 07:02:00
well, once again, i think that when i say this, apply it more to in real life battles
for example, in this one:
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=3017
although the first person makes more drops...i think that some of his combos are more difficult and so i feel that he is the better of the two and that those drops may have been just due to pressure rather than from a lack of skill or practice -
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 10:17:57
I see "its weakest trick" as it's simplest, and then no combo is better then a fingerpass. If it's about faults and drops though, then an otherwise better combo can be brought down below the level of a less advanced combo because of just one small mistake, like a hacky cardioid.
-
Date: Mon, Dec 31 2007 18:41:18
For me...... I don't think It's always right.
For example, if you see a pro doing an awasome combo, but one trick, went wrong a bit. I think, that the combo is still great. so he missed a bit. not a big deal. you can still se the combo as a whole, and see how great it was, even with this bad trick.
X:
P.S sorry for any grammer/ spelling mistakes if any. -
Date: Tue, Jan 1 2008 10:57:51
I think a good combo has good linkage and nice, not matter what tricks he/she put in. If the person who present the good combo but with bad skill, and not smooth, the combo is still good, just that the person who performed it is bad. Just like a music score, the score itself was wrote very nice that if you play it perfect or almost perfect, it will be very nice to listen/enjoy. When someone isn't practising the score with heart, then the score will be played badly, but the score itself is still a good score. That's is what i think about combo too.
Edit: So combo(or the breakdown) is like music score to me. -
Date: Tue, Jan 1 2008 18:09:48
i don't think that cause pros put things like twisted sonics and thumbarounds in combos sometimes
that would mean if we could do a combo with a thumbaround and twisted sonic we'd be just as good as them -
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 08:36:49
Then everyone is a pro then, haha....
Overall, its still the linkage of tricks, its how well you link it. And if it looks very presentable, why not? -
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 01:09:10
when i say the weakest trick, i dont' mean by it's difficulty level
i mean if it's done poorly in a combo..like if that trick is not as smooth as the rest of the tricks
of course, a combo still has to have more difficult tricks as well, adn those have to be done nicely as well
so i think that a good combo has three important aspects to it
1-the difficulty and variety of the trick
2-the creativity in the combo
3-the smoothness of the tricks and their linkages
so know that when i say weakest trick, i mean the problems in aspect 3 (sorry if that had confused you, just wanted to say weakest to make it sound nicer)QUOTE (cyshing @ Jan 1 2008, 05:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think a good combo has good linkage and nice, not matter what tricks he/she put in. If the person who present the good combo but with bad skill, and not smooth, the combo is still good, just that the person who performed it is bad. Just like a music score, the score itself was wrote very nice that if you play it perfect or almost perfect, it will be very nice to listen/enjoy. When someone isn't practising the score with heart, then the score will be played badly, but the score itself is still a good score. That's is what i think about combo too.
Edit: So combo(or the breakdown) is like music score to me.
very nice analogy
-
Date: Fri, Jan 11 2008 05:56:55
Even if someone did a very hard combo,and he got a trick done badly,then the combo is fucked up.
-
Date: Fri, Jan 11 2008 16:10:14
I believe the whole idea of penspinning is linking some realy nice tricks into combo's (ofc there is also the aspect of learning the tricks,perfecting them and practicing them).
As you said- a Combo is constructed by 3 things:
1.The difficulty of the combo
2.The creativity of it which I think we should also add the variety of tricks in it.
3.The smoothness of the combo- its what the eye likes to see-fast change in pen positions in one's hand/hands.
Now-numbers 1 and 2 can be worked upon without creating a combo, but in a combo you mostly work on aspect number 3, while its not the core of it, its a big part of it (30% approximately) so if one screws up with it, it realy depends on what his opponent did and then see if the other 2 factors can overcome the bad linking.
Again- penspinning is very complex and each one has a different view on each and every component. -
Date: Tue, Mar 11 2008 14:29:11
I really agree with Thewave, I think that penspinning is all about learning the tricks and improving on them. But mainly the purpose of penspinning is to link or connect different tricks into combinations and hybrid tricks. Everyone has a different view about this but I believe that most everyone will say that penspinning is about the combos. I think that the smoother that your transitions are the better penspinner you have become, because I think it takes more time to connect tricks smoothly than it does to learn the actual tricks. In the end it comes down to the difficulty, creativity, and smoothness(just like Thewave said) that makes the penspinner better. It's just a personal view on the different components, that's all.
-
Date: Wed, Mar 12 2008 05:23:07
i don't think the tricks matter
as long as it looks really smooth and good it's a good combo
fi it's all choppy and unsmooth
uit's the worst combo ever -
Date: Thu, Mar 13 2008 04:41:10QUOTE (cluu1 @ Mar 12 2008, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i don't think the tricks matter
as long as it looks really smooth and good it's a good combo
fi it's all choppy and unsmooth
uit's the worst combo ever
agreed cause i saw a dude do a bakfall that sucked balls so the combo was not as good as a bakfall :/ -
Date: Thu, Mar 13 2008 05:55:45
is a smooth sonic risefall really better than a choppy bakfall?
-
Date: Thu, Mar 13 2008 05:58:58QUOTE (Vall3y @ Mar 13 2008, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>is a smooth sonic risefall really better than a choppy bakfall?
i think so -
Date: Sun, Mar 30 2008 20:09:45
i agree. an audience would be more impressed with risefall than the choppy bakfall. unless u r just practcing.
-
Date: Sun, Apr 6 2008 11:21:15QUOTE (Vall3y @ Mar 13 2008, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>is a smooth sonic risefall really better than a choppy bakfall?
ya! -
Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 21:29:32
I'm still thinking that if you screw up a trick, the comeback is what makes it a good trick. There is always room for redemption.
-
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 19:03:00
The rule, seriously is not absolutely true. Yes, it is sure that to drop a pen is verry bad for the visual appeal of a combo, but to say "A combo is only as good as its weakest trick" is not absoutely true.
Example: Alan spins. in his (fabulous) combo, there is a sonic. Is the combo as good as Thumbaround-sonic-Thumbaround just beacause the weakest tricks of both was a sonic?
But yeah, a verry bad error makes a combo not just a little bit weaker.
I'l say that the level of technic difficulty of a combo is like an average: Backfall=+10. Sonic=+2. pen fall=-50? -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 19:06:53QUOTE (Stay'n Alive @ Jun 16 2008, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Example: Alan spins. in his (fabulous) combo, there is a sonic. Is the combo as good as Thumbaround-sonic-Thumbaround just beacause the weakest tricks of both was a sonic?
weakest trick does not mean the easiest trick
weakest means the one that is done the most poorly (at least that's what i had originally meant) -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 21:47:46
okay than change my example of soics with sonics badly done...
-
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 22:46:40QUOTE (Stay'n Alive @ Jun 16 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>okay than change my example of soics with sonics badly done...
thats true sonics badly done are brutal -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 23:28:29
So a combo with a really fast and smooth bakfall 1.5 is as bad as a crappy sonic if there's a bad one there?
-
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 23:32:45
David Weis has rather poor sonics, yet one cannot question the quality of his combos.
So a combo cannot be judged simply by the tricks that are in it, much less what the 'weakest' trick within it is. -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 00:20:54QUOTE (someone @ Jun 16 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So a combo with a really fast and smooth bakfall 1.5 is as bad as a crappy sonic if there's a bad one there?
that is teh question that i'm posing
i wouldn't say discount the fact that a bakfall 1.5 was executed so smoothly, but like, would a bad sonic lower the viewer's judgement on that clip by a LOT?
let me give you an example i guess...
okay, i'm gonna give some values to tricks like how stay n' alive had done
perfect bakfall 1.5 = 12 points
perfect bakfall = 8 points
bad sonic = ? points
Person A does a perfect bakfall 1.5 followed by a bad sonic and then the rest of the combo which isnt' anythign special but there are no "bad" tricks or mistakes being made
A: 12 points + ? points
Person B does a perfect bakfall followed by the rest of his combo which isnt' anything special but there are no "bad" tricks or mistakes being made
B: 8 points
(i nulled the points in the rest of the combo cause lets assume that the rest of the combo both receieves equal point values)
NOW...
the question is... "what is the value of '?' aka the "bad" sonic???"
is that value such a negative value that it brings teh 12 points that the bakfall 1.5 got down to say a ..7?
or is that value a negative value but not low enough to bring the 12 points down too much and only brings it down to say...9?
which one of those 2 scenerios do you find to be true?
as a sidenote though, anybody who can pull off a bakfall 1.5 smoothly wont' mess up on a simple sonic but thsi is just for argument's sake that we use the example of sonic -.-'' -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 02:11:13
Thanks a lot, JC.
I can translate these mathematics notions by "how much valor the bad sonic makes loose to the combo" -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 02:49:48QUOTE (Stay'n Alive @ Jun 16 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks a lot, JC.
I can translate these mathematics notions by "how much valor the bad sonic makes loose to the combo"
yes..simply put...that is what i meant xD
wow, that would've saved me so much time if i jsut wrote that -.-'' -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 14:54:01
Ahhhh, yeah, poor JC, I must learn to develop my ideas more clearly, more efficiently. It will save ppl of doing what you did...
-
Date: Thu, Jun 19 2008 10:25:27
hmm.... are we discussing about the visual appeal of combo or just combo?
of course a drop or not steady catch are affecting the visual appeal of a combo, but doesn't mean that the combo is poor right?
I'll still use my previous example - combo is like music score. A combo performed by different ppl will have different visual appeal and how they interpret the combo(breakdown-ed) are different too, unless they follow exactly the way how the original spinner(or 1st spinner performing) of the combo, like palm down sonic. Look at the music Canon in D, the original version is so so great, but there are also so many different versions today of Canon rearranged by different people, and some of the versions are great too. Lets say a person playing the original version of Canon, but this person do not have very good skill, and he made error in between playing, what would you comment about it? the Canon in D is bad score? or it's a bad performance?
Applying it in pen spinning, lets say a spinner with unsolid skill performed one of Eriror K.'s great combos, this spinner lagged or maybe a drop, is that a bad combo or bad perform?
p.s. hope my post isn't messy because my opinions are all like scrambled together in my mind. i did try to arrange what i wrote. -
Date: Thu, Jun 19 2008 12:26:06
Okay, assume we talk about the perform, or "Technic hardness of the combo" multiplied by "quality of interpretation", the quality of interpretation including of course the fact of making errors.