UPSB v3
Research Department Feedback / Questions / Problems for the NC
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Date: Thu, Jun 14 2007 23:40:24
If you have anything you want to ask the naming committee, ask it here in this thread.
~Mats -
Date: Sun, Sep 16 2007 16:58:27
I think naming committy must create naming system for 2p2h, 2p1h and 1p2h tricks. I was stunned when i try to breakdowning some combo with this tricks. And transistion from one hand to another must have some special names i think.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16 2007 17:58:50
i started this, but i dont think it's used often enough to make it useful though... but actually i think i'll re-start this project ... regardless of how often its used, its still needed even if it's only used once ...
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Date: Sun, Sep 16 2007 18:07:42QUOTE (LMnet @ Sep 16 2007, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think naming committy must create naming system for 2p2h, 2p1h and 1p2h tricks. I was stunned when i try to breakdowning some combo with this tricks. And transistion from one hand to another must have some special names i think.
That is already being worked on.
What are you on about Strat?
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Date: Sun, Sep 16 2007 20:24:36
strat was leading the NC topic on 2p1h notation.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17 2007 02:29:15QUOTE (Mats @ Sep 16 2007, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What are you on about Strat?
uhm, exactly what i said?
if you didn't take leaves of absence from the board every other month you might know this stuff
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Date: Mon, Nov 5 2007 06:03:29
Hope this thread is still active because I have a question on a certain trick in particular,
well two tricks now that I think about it. Both are variations of how the trick should normally go.
When I do my inverse sonics I can't do them at the COB because for some reason the pen can't make the motion around my fingers like that, so instead I do my inverse sonic normal/rev harmonic up and down the hand manipulating the tip from one end. I asked Eso about this once and he said he called these sweeps (his own personal notation) and I was just wondering if there was an actual notation for executing inverse sonic normals / revs at the tip of the pen vs the base.
The second trick I was wondering about was one I kind of came across myself yesterday. I was busy doing my finger pass like how I usually do when I have a pen in my hand and suddenly I was kind of letting the pen slide during each pass. This was done in such a way where I'd have the end of the pen between two fingers and when I went to pass it instead of having those fingers catch the pen at the COB I let the pen slide through the original fingers mid-rotation such that the fingers that caught the pass were actually catching the pen by its tip. I started concentrating on getting just these and in essence I've started to create this kind of slidey/slippery like variation on the traditional finger pass. I think with enough practice I'll be able to have it down normal & rev using either end of the pen. I was just wondering if there's already a name for this variation
Thanks for all your help peoples on the naming comittee -
Date: Mon, Nov 5 2007 06:15:31
- For the first question, almost any trick can be done holding onto any portion of the pen. It doesn't matter where you hold it as long as the pen does the proper motion.
- For the second question, it sounds like the "Seasick" by Nate (the old-school spinner from UPSBv2)...QUOTE (Nate from the UPSBv2 thread)This fits in with the charge group. Done between any of your fingers, the Pencil slides along it's length.
That's pretty much it.
More clear description:
1: Hold the Pen/cil between any of your fingers perpendicular with your hand
2: Push your top finger to the right and your bottom to the left
3: Let the pen/cil slide to the end of it's body length
4: Do in reverse
Sea Sick
You hold onto one end of the pen, loosen your grip, and let the pen slide between your fingers, grab a hold at the other end.
- For the first question, almost any trick can be done holding onto any portion of the pen. It doesn't matter where you hold it as long as the pen does the proper motion.
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Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 11:25:54
Searched, but didn't find anything about the notation if you spin with your "other hand" (for righthanded spinners would it be the lefthand).
I think it's a bit bothersome and confusing to wirte "lefthand thumbaround ~> right hand fl. TA Rev." How should people now that the lefthand is the otherhand? But writing "other hand thumbaround ~> normal hand fl. TA Rev" is at least as stupid as the lefthand/righthand notation.
So how about giving "other hand" spinning a name? Like in skateboarding, if you drive the other way around as usual you say you drive "switch", so if you do a Kickflip, you do a switch Kickflip. So everybody knows what are you doing and can do it by his/herself.
It would look like this "switch ThumbAround ~> fl. TA Rev (no notaion, 'cause it's the normal hand)", or like this "sw. ThumbAround ~> fl. TA Rev."
If you do a little combo with you "switch" hand you could write it like this "[switch]ThumbAround Harmonic > BackAroundFall > Sonic Rise > ThumbAround Release[/switch]".
Or like this: "sw.ThumbAround Harmonic > sw.BackAroundFall > sw.Sonic Rise > sw.ThumbAround Release"
And for 1p2h spinning for example like this:
"sw.ThumbAround Harmonic > sw.BackAroundFall > sw.Sonic Rise > sw.ThumbAround Release ~> fl. ThumbAround Rev > NeobackAround 12-23 etc."
Notice that there is no "sw." in front of the fl. ThumbAround Rev. and the neobackAround so you spin this part with your normal hand.
-McDudelsaeck -
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 12:02:31
Good idea, things like this have been discussed in the RD and NC before but we've never finalized any notations. This is the best one I've seen this far.
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Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 16:17:09
this is good for 1p2h, but does not work for 2p2h or more.
if we invent a new naming, it has to be uniform for any xpyh. -
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 18:12:50
2p2h:
You could right your breakdown for switch and normal. If you pass the pen from the switch hand to your normal hand you could right for example "Pass switch pen to normal hand" or the trick "sw. TA (it have to be the switch pen, 'cause it's switch TA) ~> fl. TA Rev." Then you now that the Pen from the switch hand is no on the normal hand.
2p1h:
Had nothing to do with switch but you easily could write "pen 1" and "pen 2" (problem: Which is pen 1?)
3p2h:
Example:
[switch]Sonic 34-23 > Tw. Sonic 23-12 > Pass 12-23-34 > {pen 2: TA Release ~ sw. Fake Rev > sw. BackAround > sw. TA Harm} > Pass 34-23-12 > TA[/switch]
So, what do we know if we read this? We now that we do a switch combo, and after the pass 12-23-34 we got pen 2 from the other hand by a TA Release.
Same example, with also a normal hand combo.
[switch]Sonic 34-23 > Tw. Sonic 23-12 > Pass 12-23-34 > {[pen 2] TA Release ~ sw. Fake Rev > sw. BackAround > sw. TA Harm[/pen2]} > Pass 34-23-12 > TA[/switch]
[pen2] BackFall > Sonic Rise Harmonic > Pass 34-23-12 > {TA Release ~ sw. Fake Rev.}[/pen2] [pen1] fl. TA Rev. BackAround > Ext. TA[/pen1]
With more pens you could/can wirte "pen1" "pen2" "pen3" "pen4" which first should be well-defined (which pen is pen1? which pen2).
/edit:
If you want to do the switch combo first and start the seconed, then you could write it like this:
1: [switch]Sonic 34-23 > Tw. Sonic 23-12 > Pass 12-23-34 > {[pen 2] TA Release ~ sw. Fake Rev > sw. BackAround > sw. TA Harm[/pen2]} > Pass 34-23-12 > TA[/switch]
Starts when 1 is done completly (or: when 1 is done to Pass12-23-34)
2: [pen2] BackFall > Sonic Rise Harmonic > Pass 34-23-12 > {TA Release ~ sw. Fake Rev.}[/pen2] [pen1] fl. TA Rev. BackAround > Ext. TA[/pen1]
If you don't write when the combo starts then both combos start at the same time.
Dunno how confusing this is for people who aren't me, but for me it's clear (maybe 'cause I created it).
-McDudelsaeck -
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 20:12:07
for 2p2h, you're doing tricks on both hands at the same time.
how do you write it. -
Date: Wed, Jan 2 2008 20:31:04QUOTE(Normal)/1.: ThumbAround Harmonic > BackAround > NeobackAround 12-23 > Tw. Sonic Harmonic 23-12-23 -> Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev. 23-34 > Sonic Rise
(Switch)/2.:
[switch]ThumbAround Harmonic > BackAround > NeobackAround 12-23 > Tw. Sonic Harmonic 23-12-23 -> Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev. 23-34 > Sonic Rise[/switch]
So, two breakdowns, and if you start with the switch spinning a bit later, then you can write "Start switch spinning after NeobackAround from combo 1 (normal) is done."
So you know what the spinner is doing with his normal and his switch hand and when he is doing it.
If there is no "Starts when trick xy from combo xy is done" you do it both at the same time.
If you stop a combo for a while after starting it again, you could write it like this:QUOTE(Normal)/1.: ThumbAround Harmonic > BackAround > NeobackAround 12-23 [break: 5seconds/five tricks from combo 2]> Tw. Sonic Harmonic 23-12-23 -> Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev. 23-34 > Sonic Rise
(Switch)/2.:
[switch]ThumbAround Harmonic > BackAround > NeobackAround 12-23 > Tw. Sonic Harmonic 23-12-23 -> Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev. 23-34 > Sonic Rise[/switch]
So you know what the spinner is doing, when he is doing it and when he stops doing it/starts doing it again.
-McDudelsaeck -
Date: Thu, Jan 3 2008 16:00:36
Why complicate matters with things like 'switch'? Just use right hand and left hand or RH & LH if you're lazy.
QUOTE(Normal)/1.: ThumbAround Harmonic > BackAround > NeobackAround 12-23 [break: 5seconds/five tricks from combo 2]> Tw. Sonic Harmonic 23-12-23 -> Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev. 23-34 > Sonic Rise
(Switch)/2.:
[switch]ThumbAround Harmonic > BackAround > NeobackAround 12-23 > Tw. Sonic Harmonic 23-12-23 -> Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev. 23-34 > Sonic Rise[/switch]
Becomes:
RH: TA Harm. > Bak > NeoBak 12-23 > LH: TA Harm > Bak > NeoBak > Tw. Sonic Harm. 23-12-23 > Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev. 23-34 > RH: Tw. Sonic Harm. 23-12-23 > Inv. Tw. Sonic Rev 23-34 > (both hands) Sonic Rise
I'm not even sure if I got that completely right, your notation is very confusing.
But as you can see, this way works fine and is not confusing. You can include 'pen 1, pen 2' or 'p1 & p2' for lazy people if you want to be crystal clear about what you are doing (and for 2p1h too).
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Date: Thu, Jan 3 2008 16:54:25
If a spinner writes "left hand combo:" and "right hand combo:", how should people know which hand is the main hand? If a righthanded spinners does a amazing combo with is left hand (for example for a collab or what ever you want) and he writes his breakdown with "left hand: TA Rev. > BackFall 7.5 Harmonic > ThumbSpin 20.0 > etc." everybody will think he is lefthanded, but he isn't and isn't it more awesome to see a very good combo with the "switch" than seeing a very good combo with the mainhand?
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Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 02:25:10
Combo breakdowns don't need to express any relative difficulty (or relative awesomeness), they only need to describe what the pen (and possibly the hand) is doing.
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Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 19:55:11
Disagree.
I mean, the notation "BackAround" shows a trick that is harder to execute then a "ThumbAround", in the same way this notation should show that "Sw. BackAround" is harder then "BackAround". -
Date: Sat, Jan 5 2008 03:32:07
Not really. The name "BackAround" doesn't show a more difficult trick than "ThumbAround". On the other hand, we as pen spinners are accustomed to see "BackAround" as being more difficult that "ThumbAround" because experience and knowledge tell us so.
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Date: Sat, Jan 5 2008 11:38:47
Take David Weiss for an example I'm sure he finds Sonic Rise much more difficult then Cont. Baks 1.5.
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Date: Thu, Feb 7 2008 17:19:06
can i ask something... what combo should i do first? i mean i've been trying some but its just pointless, i cant finish it.
this are the tricks i can do (not too perfectly though):
t/a and t/a reverse
thumbspin
triangle pass
sonic, inverse sonic, twisted sonic
fingerpass
charge
infinty...extended, double etc
backarounds and its reverse
i can do the thumb pop but i dunno what trick to do next after that.
help and thanks
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Date: Thu, Feb 7 2008 17:28:15
that's not the right place to ask such question.
the naming commitee only answers questions about how to name tricks.
go in the advanced and fundamental sections.
there is a thread called "post your simple combos" -
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 20:44:00
Why is Fake Double called a Fake Double? What's a normal Double? Is it meant for Double TA? If so, then the movement doesn't really resemble a Double TA so that doesn't make much sense either.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 02:00:32
Fake Triple from the old Pentix site.
QUOTEHere's an alternative method of doing a three rotation trick (if you can't do the Thumb Spin Triple)...In the same vein, Fake Double is an alternative to the 2.0 rotation Thumbspin 2.0. They are both "fake" because they do not spin on top of thumb, but go around it.QUOTE (kam Thu Jun 12 @ 2003 3:56 pm)A regular Triple spins on TOP of the Thumb, for three rotations (obviously). The Fake Triple tries to accomplish the same effect (three rotations) with a different approach.The above quote uses older terms for tricks, below are translations to current names.
Whereas the Triple is a single trick, the Fake Triple is a combo composed of 360 Degree Normal, Index Spin, and another 360 Degree Normal (some people call it the ThumbSpin). The important thing to note is that in the Fake Triple, the pen NEVER spins on top of the Thumb, or any finger. It spins AROUND the fingers for every trick.
"A regular Triple" = Thumbspin 3.0
"360 Degree Normal" = Thumbaround
"Index Spin" = Indexaround
As an aside to older namings, here's a quote from nhk_9 that I like:QUOTE (nhk_9 Thu Jun 12 @ 2003 3:21 pm)He means the 360 Degree. If you see any numbers that are multiples of 180, those are "around thumb, or around fingers" tricks. If you see "Single, or Double" etc., you are dealing with on-top-of-thumb spins. However, the word "Single" can also be used to refer to the 360 degree as well, since they look so similar. Sometimes, the "Single" can be mean "Single Tap", which is slightly different from 360 degree (it is actually 0.5 spins more than a Half-tap... if you know what a half-tap is, then that would be great).That, people, is why proper naming is needed, otherwise you get messy.
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Date: Wed, Feb 20 2008 19:35:24
How did Shadow get to be named that way? :X
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Date: Wed, Feb 20 2008 21:13:47
this is just speculation from my part, but I vaguely remember kangandgeon (creator of the trick) comparing the Shadow as a "weird" sonic, hence it's the Shadow of Sonic. Huroni knows what I'm talking about
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Date: Thu, Feb 21 2008 20:36:10
i thought its named after shadow the character from sonic the hedgehog
now i got an interesting thing to point out:
is charge a sonic still?
just like the previous sonic 1.5 in place was called shadow (if i recall correctly, if the pen changed the finger slots it was called a sonic, else it was a shadow).
the charge movement is exactly like the sonic, it just stays in place, so a charge 23 is actually a sonic 23-23
the 'charge' that people do today is actually continuous sonics in place
in sonic 23-23 the pen stays in the same fingers, but in 23-12 it doesnt, and it gets a new name
a shadow (or any other trick as far as i knkow) in place and not in place dont get different names
why should charge\sonic be different?
its probably too late to change anything now. charge being a fundamental and all, but just tell me what you think.
imo the charge is a better name than sonic, because it actually describes the idea of the trick. -
Date: Thu, Feb 28 2008 15:59:04QUOTE (Vall3y @ Feb 21 2008, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>just like the previous sonic 1.5 in place was called shadow (if i recall correctly, if the pen changed the finger slots it was called a sonic, else it was a shadow).
Incorrect. If the pen spun on top of the fingers, that is, if the pen at some point during the trick used topspin, then it was called a Sonic 1.5. However, since the pen spinning on top of the hand involves a different spin type, the trick is no longer a Sonic and so the name Sonic 1.5 was deprecciated and replaced by the name Shadow.QUOTEthe charge movement is exactly like the sonic, it just stays in place, so a charge 23 is actually a sonic 23-23
the 'charge' that people do today is actually continuous sonics in place
in sonic 23-23 the pen stays in the same fingers, but in 23-12 it doesnt, and it gets a new name
a shadow (or any other trick as far as i knkow) in place and not in place dont get different names
why should charge\sonic be different?
Actually, it's more the other way around - A Sonic could be described as a Charge that moves slots (something roughly like Charge 23 ~ Charge 13 ~ Charge 12) . The tricks are closely related, but they are not the same. -
Date: Wed, Mar 19 2008 17:12:23
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=4741&hl=
This thread brought up some questions regarding modifiers to me. Let's take the Twisted Sonic Bust, as mentioned in the thread. Would a Twisted Sonic Reverse Bust be a Twisted Sonic Reverse followed by a Regular Fl FingerAround, or a Twisted Sonic Reverse followed by a Fl FingerAround Reverse?
The question is, shall we assume that a bust always goes in the same direction as the trick it is linked onto if not mentioned otherwise or not?
Somehow we should separate tricks from modifiers when writing them down, I'm not exactly sure how I mean but it can get quite confusing with Busts and Reverses.
Let's look at Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse.
(Twisted Sonic Bust) Reverse would be Korean BackAround ~> Twisted Sonic Reverse
(Twisted Sonic) Bust Reverse would be Twisted Sonic ~> Korean BackAround
Since in the first trick it's the whole thing that is reversed, while in the second only the bust is reversed. -
Date: Wed, Mar 19 2008 20:10:05
Bust is not a modifier. It's part of a name of a hybrid that's been extended to other things. The Bust concept was meant to smoothly link a Sonic with an Indexaround. Since the end of the first trick and the beginning of the second trick have the pen going in opposite directions (Sonic = clockwise, FL IA = counter-clockwise), you have to cut off the end of the Sonic and push the pen to make it smoothly continue. The pen still changes direction. Twisted Sonic Bust works the same way (Twisted Sonic = clockwise, FL IA = counter-clockwise), you have to cut off the catch position to smoothly transition between the two. The only hybrid from Kam used the Bust concept involved a Fingerless Indexaround. The concept just seems to apply to any hybrid that allows 2 tricks that would normally meet with the pen traveling in the opposite direction to be linked smoothly. Instead of that concept, it's just been taken that the "Bust" means adding a FL Fingeraround to the end of another trick.
For both ways to looking at it, you're just doing hybrids and should just use the proper notation for them.
So, yeah, Bust is not a modifier, but more of a trick-linking concept. As that's the case, Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse means that you reverse the entire path of the Twisted Sonic Bust hybrid, starting with FL Indexaround Reverse or even a regular Indexaround Reverse.
If anything, Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse (12 for an example) is: Twisted Sonic Reverse 12-23 ~> FL Ringaround Reverse 23-23.
In conclusion: I can't fully answer you until it is decided what "Bust" should actually mean. Either way though, you are just doing hybrids and the question doesn't really matter.
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Date: Wed, Mar 19 2008 20:53:44
I am aware of that Bust is not a modifier, I didn't use it as one in my text. Now then, take up my Bust question. Also, don't questions matter as long as people care about them? If you want people to use the proper notation, why not get us to drop the name bust alltogether, just like all the other neat names?
QUOTEThe question is, shall we assume that a bust always goes in the same direction as the trick it is linked onto if not mentioned otherwise or not?
I think we should. We should define Bust to being a Fl Fingeraround moving in the same direction as the trick it is linked onto. You could also take the bust as a separate part, like Twisted Sonic ~ Bust for example, and add modifiers to the Bust if needed. This would take away the function of Bust though, since IA (or any other Around) could just as well be used then, so I don't think we should do that.
How are modifiers supposed to be placed around busts then?
Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse: Korean BackAround ~> Twisted Sonic Reverse
Twisted Sonic Reverse Bust: Twisted Sonic Reverse ~> FL Fingeraround Reverse
As I see it.
Also, you broke down Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse in two different ways.QUOTEAs that's the case, Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse means that you reverse the entire path of the Twisted Sonic Bust hybrid, starting with FL Indexaround Reverse or even a regular Indexaround Reverse.Did you mean to?
If anything, Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse (12 for an example) is: Twisted Sonic Reverse 12-23 ~> FL Ringaround Reverse 23-23. -
Date: Thu, Mar 20 2008 09:54:52QUOTE (Sfsr @ Mar 20 2008, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse: Korean BackAround ~> Twisted Sonic Reverse
Twisted Sonic Reverse Bust: Twisted Sonic Reverse ~> FL Fingeraround Reverse
I agree with this. Look at the reverse concept. (something) reverse means that if u filmed (something) in normal direction and then reversed the video, u will see (something) reverse. Now look at the Twisted Sonic Bust. If u want to see Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse, u must reversed the video with Twisted Sonic Bust, and it would be Korean BackAround ~> Twisted Sonic Reverse. Twisted Sonic Reverse Bust is just twisted sonic reverse with FL FingerAround in the end.
I have another question. Why u guys breaking down twisted sonic bust like Twisted Sonic Reverse ~> FL Fingeraround Reverse? I'm always thinking that this is just combo, not hybrid (Twisted Sonic Reverse > FL Fingeraround Reverse). Tw sonic bust have 2.5 rotation (1.5+1.0), both tricks is finished, but they just looks like hybrid because of easy linkage. -
Date: Thu, Mar 20 2008 10:30:04
I think it's since ~> donates that the Twisted Sonic doesn't have a catch, but that the trick after has a push (a Fingerless push since it's a Bust), which is the case with Twisted Sonic Bust.
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Date: Thu, Mar 20 2008 10:42:29
Why u think that twisted sonic doesn't have a catch? U catch it in 12 after full 1.5 rotation, and only when u finished tw sonic, u start bust.
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Date: Fri, Mar 21 2008 03:11:12
@LMnet: Twisted Sonic has a bit of a Charge motion at the end, which is definitely having the pen travel in the opposite direction as a Fingeraround Normal. If you leave off the Charge rotation at the end (what is normally done when performing Twisted Sonic palm-down into a Fingerless Fingeraround) you can very easily transition into the FL Fingeraround.
QUOTEThe question is, shall we assume that a bust always goes in the same direction as the trick it is linked onto if not mentioned otherwise or not?Since the FL FA Normal goes in the opposite direction of the end of both Sonic and Twisted Sonic, I would say "No".QUOTEWe should define Bust to being a Fl Fingeraround moving in the same direction as the trick it is linked onto. You could also take the bust as a separate part, like Twisted Sonic ~ Bust for example, and add modifiers to the Bust if needed. This would take away the function of Bust though, since IA (or any other Around) could just as well be used then, so I don't think we should do that.I don't like that idea since it could just cause more questions. Thumbaround is technically a Fingeraround variation as the thumb is still another finger. That means that Double Thumbaround could also be called Thumbaround Bust and the Extended Thumbaround/Fake Double/Tornado arugment can then add Thumbaround Bust as another possible name. That would mean that existing ideas like Double Fingeraround (Indexaround ~> FL IA) would get another name along with any other Double "..." hybrids. Since I'm all for stopping the naming of combos/hybrids, I view this as going in the wrong direction.
As for stopping the use of "Bust" as a name, that would be okay with me.QUOTEIf anything, Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse (12 for an example) is: Twisted Sonic Reverse 12-23 ~> FL Ringaround Reverse 23-23.It was supposed to be Twisted Sonic Reverse Bust.QUOTEHow are modifiers supposed to be placed around busts then?For the sake of clarification after messing up in my last post:
Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse: Korean BackAround ~> Twisted Sonic Reverse
Twisted Sonic Reverse Bust: Twisted Sonic Reverse ~> FL Fingeraround Reverse
As I see it.
The path of Twisted Sonic Bust Reverse 12:
Indexaround Reverse > Pass Normal 12-23 > Charge Reverse 0.5 23
The path of Twisted Sonic Reverse Bust 12:
Twisted Sonic Reverse 12-23 ~> FL Ringaround Reverse 23-23QUOTEI am aware of that Bust is not a modifier, I didn't use it as one in my text. Now then, take up my Bust question. Also, don't questions matter as long as people care about them?I see Bust as a concept for performing tricks together. As it currently stands, the performance tends to be of hybrids which I see no reason for naming anymore. "Bust" as a concept of joining tricks that are traveling in opposite directions is great as a performance concept, not as a combo/hybrid naming concept. Keeping the old name of Sonic Bust as an example of the concept is fine, for historical purposes, but I don't see a need to try and expand with more names based on the original hybrid of Sonic 23 ~> FL Indexaround. -
Date: Mon, Mar 31 2008 03:17:53
With the interrupted trick notation, for the first trick, do you write it's original ending position, or its actual ending position?
For example, a Sonic 34-23 interrupted by a Twisted Sonic 24-12. Would that be:
Sonic 34-23 ~> Twisted Sonic 24-12
Or
Sonic 34-24 ~> Twisted Sonic 24-12 -
Date: Tue, Apr 1 2008 02:40:10
It should be the normal ending position. You are showing the full intended path of the trick before the interruption of the second trick/partial trick.
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Date: Tue, Apr 1 2008 03:09:53
What would be the correct notation for the old name fake index spin?
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Date: Fri, Apr 4 2008 04:19:15QUOTE (Leviathan @ Apr 1 2008, 04:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What would be the correct notation for the old name fake index spin?
Got a video of a fake index spin leviathan? -
Date: Fri, Apr 4 2008 17:35:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myFCwNvw78c
At 34 seconds. It starts as a half tap, but then goes over the index and ends in 12. -
Date: Mon, Apr 7 2008 06:06:38
In the CV "SpinningParty ||" Seven dose some tricks with the whole hand and i was wondering if i could break down those tricks with a "P"
Example:
Seven 01:57 - 02:05
Ext Thumb Around T1-12 > Thumb Around 12-P > Palmspin Rev P-Tf ~ Fl Thumb Around Rev Tf-34 > Ring Backaround 34-23 > Charge 23 > Middle Backaround 23-12 > Invisible Pass 12-TP > Wiper Rev TP > Pinky Backaround TP-34
and also, in saizens combo, i found two hard to break down tricks
Saizen 00:46 - 01:00
Middle Around .5 23-12 > IndexMiddle Around 12-23 > MiddleIndex Around 23-12 > Rev Twisted Sonic 12-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12 ~ Shadow 12-12 > Palmdown Pass 12-23 > Twisted sonic 23-12 > Neo Sonic 12-T1 > Pass T1-12 > Backaround 12-Tf > Tf charge rev > Rev shadow Tf-23 > Middle Around rev .5 23-T2 > Pass T2-23 > Middle Backaround 23-T2 > Inverse Warped Sonic T2-23 > Middle Around 23-23 > Twisted Sonic rev 23-34 > Pass 34-23 > Pass Rev 23-12-23 > Wiper Rev 23-T2 > Thumb Around T2-Tf > Flick Halftap Rev TF2-12 (?) > Sicssor Spin 12 ~ Middle Around .5 12-23 (?) > Charge Rev 23 > Shadow 23-12 > Twisted Sonic Rev 12-23 > Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Thumb Around
SpinningParty || -
Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 09:38:54
Jamie Enns, i find some mistakes in your breakdowns
Seven 01:57 - 02:05
Fake double T1-T1 > Thumb Around T1-TP > FL Palmspin Rev P-TF ~ Fl Thumb Around Rev TF-34 > Ring Backaround 34-23 > Charge 23 > Middle Backaround 23-12 > inverse sonic 12-T2 ~> Wiper Rev T2 > Pinky Backaround TP-34
And this moment in Saizen's combo (i was too lazy to breaking down all combo ):
Fake reverse (middle flick) 0.5 T2-T1 [p][s0.5] ~ sonic rev T1-12 [s0.5] ~> scissor spin 0.5 [0.5] ~ MA 0.5 [c][s0.5] -
Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 21:28:32QUOTE (Jamie Enns @ Apr 7 2008, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In the CV "SpinningParty ||" Seven dose some tricks with the whole hand and i was wondering if i could break down those tricks with a "P"
Transmitted the question about using "P" for Palm to the Naming Comittee. Thanks for the idea.
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Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 05:06:05
I use P (palm) when i breaking down key3's combo from Japen 3rd in breakdown request thread:
QUOTEpass normal 34-23 > inverse sonic rev 23-34 ~> neo-sonic normal 24-T2 (palm down) > wiper normal T2 > pass rev T3-23 > twisted sonic rev 23-34 > RA 34-34 > warped sonic rev 34-23 > inverse sonic rev 23-34 ~> PA 24-23 > MA rev 23-23 > inverse warped sonic normal 23-34 (palm vertical > palm down) > pass rev 34-T2 > wiper normal T2 > wiper rev P2 (P means Palm, it's not official) > pass normal P2-34 > sonic normal 34-23 > inverse tipped sonic 23-T3 > Charge rev T2 (2 on palm side) > Charge rev TF > FL Fake rev 0.5 > pass normal 12-23 > twisted sonic 23-12 > counter IA rev [p][s 0.5] 12-P1 ~ charge rev P1 [c][s 1.0] > FL TA rev > neo-bak 12-12 ~> FL Pass normal 12-23 > MidBak 1.5 > midbak
This combo is so difficult for breakdowning, but i did it NC must look at this combos and make some good breakdown system for tricks like wiper rev P2 (P means Palm, it's not official), Charge rev T2 (2 on palm side) and counter IA rev [p][s 0.5] 12-P1 ~ charge rev P1 [c][s 1.0] -
Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 16:49:56
thanks for the proper breakdown, even tho i still call your fake double an Ext Ta
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Date: Thu, Apr 10 2008 04:15:07QUOTE (Jamie Enns @ Apr 9 2008, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>thanks for the proper breakdown, even tho i still call your fake double an Ext Ta
That's not right, read this thread. -
Date: Mon, Apr 21 2008 05:04:58
before i propose my problem i'd like to ask
can a leigun be defined as a halftap/fulltap release? -
Date: Sun, May 4 2008 11:34:35
the 0.5 spins against 'passarounds' made me think, isnt the fundemental thumbaround you teach new people to pen spinning, is actually a 0.5 spin? you start with 13 and it ends in 12, and not in 13 again
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Date: Sun, May 4 2008 15:39:35QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Apr 21 2008, 07:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>before i propose my problem i'd like to ask
can a leigun be defined as a halftap/fulltap release?
I guess not. The push for a leigun can differ from a classical halftap or fulltap push, depending on what trick comes right before...And besides, the leigun is a trick with a defined catch, while a trick with "release" does not include a catch in it...But this aspect is quite specific and could deserve further inquiries...QUOTE (Vall3y @ May 4 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the 0.5 spins against 'passarounds' made me think, isnt the fundemental thumbaround you teach new people to pen spinning, is actually a 0.5 spin? you start with 13 and it ends in 12, and not in 13 again
Hum, before answering, did you make a mistake using 12 in place of T1, and 23 instead of T2 ? Cause I don't see a thumbaround teached to beginners starting from 13 and ending 12, though it might be a possible trick...
And well, the thumbaround alone is 1.0 rotation, even when tought to beginners. But when you learn Thumbaround Harmonic, it's often done with shortened versions of TA and TA rev which are 0.5 ... Maybe the definition of a thumbaround harmonic could include this aspect.
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Date: Sun, May 4 2008 19:20:38QUOTE (Skatox @ May 4 2008, 11:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hum, before answering, did you make a mistake using 12 in place of T1, and 23 instead of T2 ? Cause I don't see a thumbaround teached to beginners starting from 13 and ending 12, though it might be a possible trick...
And well, the thumbaround alone is 1.0 rotation, even when tought to beginners. But when you learn Thumbaround Harmonic, it's often done with shortened versions of TA and TA rev which are 0.5 ... Maybe the definition of a thumbaround harmonic could include this aspect.
err, yeah. piano finger notations<_< i think they'd make better finger notations anyway but thats for an other time
yeah that thing got me all confused, now i understand thats its 1 rotation, while TA harmonic is actually 0.5 rotations -
Date: Sun, May 4 2008 21:16:52QUOTE (Vall3y @ May 4 2008, 09:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>now i understand thats its 1 rotation, while TA harmonic is actually 0.5 rotations
To really bother you, I would say that TA Harmonic is 1.0 rotation when done quickly, and 2.0 if done more slowly with "large" moves of fingers. And each TA or TA rev is then in it is then 0.5 if done quickly, 1.0 if done with larger moves. This is a fuck*** case of course
.
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Date: Mon, May 5 2008 03:54:52
ok well anyways, im not quite sure about this but here it goes
shouldnt the thumbaround release be called the thumbaround riser?
because i've found another trick i believe should be called the thumbaround release... -
Date: Mon, May 5 2008 03:58:58QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ May 5 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>ok well anyways, im not quite sure about this but here it goes
shouldnt the thumbaround release be called the thumbaround riser?
because i've found another trick i believe should be called the thumbaround release...
Nothing was ever agreed or even discussed really on what is the difference between a 'riser' and a 'release'. There probably should be a system of 'release = FL' 'riser = non-FL' or something like that, but it's never yet been implimented or recommended officially. -
Date: Mon, May 5 2008 04:55:09
well i think it's an important differentiation, and i've already established it in my head. ill bring it up with sketching (i dont really understand the whole topic thing ><)
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Date: Mon, May 5 2008 06:37:23
As far as I know, the word Release is used when you launch the trick into the air while executing it, while Riser is when you first commence the spin or rotation of the trick in the normal way and then toss it up in the air from there.
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Date: Mon, May 5 2008 15:09:38
@Vall3y: the basic Thumbaround should be close to a full 1.0 rotation. Thumbaround Harmonic should be classified as a hybrid since it usually has nowhere near 1.0 rotation for either the TA Nor or TA Rev. Continuous TA Harmonic tends to have both tricks performed with about 0.5 rotation each. I don't understand what you mean when you Passaround in the first part of the sentence, so I'll skip that part for now.
@Shadowserpant:
As for TA Release/Riser, I'll agree with Mats: there isn't anything official for the definitions right now. Currently, you can do it both ways by what I figure is the de facto standard for defining the names. For something like Bakriser or Shadow Riser, you push the pen when it is moving freely from the fingers with only an upward hand motion. The pen is not held by the fingers during the rising portion of the trick, it's a fingerless push. For something like Indexaround Release, the pen is launched into the air while held by the fingers, the pen is pretty much thrown into the air witha finger push.
Now, for TA Release. You can perform it as a Riser by letting the pen travel on top of the Thumb, free from the fingers, before launching it into the air. You can also perform it like you usually would perform any Fingeraound Release by launching the pen during the push of the Thumbaround. -
Date: Wed, May 7 2008 15:03:15
Is there any way to describe when a trick is performed with the palm down or the palm sideways?
Because it changes when you do, for example a Tw Sonic (palm down) > TA than if you do it Tw Sonic (palm sideways) > TA -
Date: Wed, May 7 2008 15:26:59
@Freeman: There is currently nothing beyond what you had in your example of putting the hand position in parentheses. For now, it's up to you to know how the hand is usually positioned during a trick and figure out how the hand may change during the trick to accomodate the following trick. Unless it is stated, in parentheses, that the trick is performed differently than the usual, you can assume that the trick is performed as usual. Since breakdowns tend to follow videos, for now you can watch the video and easily see how the hand is positioned.
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Date: Wed, May 21 2008 16:01:42
Thanks for the explanation, sketching. I have another doubt, how can I differentiate (in breakdowns, for example) a Pseudo Sonic that starts in 34, then goes like a Sonic 34-12 and ends in 34 from a Pseudo Sonic that starts in 34, goes like a Sonic 34-23 and ends in 34?
EDIT:QUOTE (sketching)As for TA Release/Riser, I'll agree with Mats: there isn't anything official for the definitions right now. Currently, you can do it both ways by what I figure is the de facto standard for defining the names. For something like Bakriser or Shadow Riser, you push the pen when it is moving freely from the fingers with only an upward hand motion. The pen is not held by the fingers during the rising portion of the trick, it's a fingerless push. For something like Indexaround Release, the pen is launched into the air while held by the fingers, the pen is pretty much thrown into the air witha finger push.
Now, for TA Release. You can perform it as a Riser by letting the pen travel on top of the Thumb, free from the fingers, before launching it into the air. You can also perform it like you usually would perform any Fingeraound Release by launching the pen during the push of the Thumbaround
After reading that, can I say that in a Riser the pen spins on a horizontal plane, and in a Release spins on a vertical one? -
Date: Wed, May 21 2008 19:42:26
If you want to try to lessen confusion, do not use Pseudo Sonic at all, use hybrid notation...
QUOTE (Freeman @ May 21 2008, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...Pseudo Sonic that starts in 34 then goes like a Sonic 34-12 and ends in 34 from a Pseudo Sonic that starts in 34, goes like a Sonic 34-23 and ends in 34?Sonic 34-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Moonwalk Sonic 12-34[s 0.5][c]
informal:
Sonic 0.5 34-12 ~ Moonwalk Sonic 0.5 12-34QUOTEAfter reading that, can I say that in a Riser the pen spins on a horizontal plane, and in a Release spins on a vertical one?I wouldn't give Riser that specific a notation yet. I can see someone doing something like an almost vertical-hand Palmspin with the pinky finger straightened and pointing inward. The spinner could then flick his hand upward, allowing the pinky finger to push the pen as the hand goes up. This would give the pen an almost vertical spin. I would still call that Palmspin Riser since there was no finger push, the hand motion launched the pen.
Edit: for another way of trying to see a vertical spin: visualize a TA done with a vertical hand. Instead catching the pen in a finger slot, the pen hits the pinky finger as the hand is jerked up, the pen should move with a vertical spin instead of horizontal. I don't know what that would be called, but it would not have an actual finger push, so I wouldn't want to call it a Release of some kind.
Thumbaround[p][s 0.75] ~ "?" Riser
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Date: Fri, May 23 2008 23:53:04
Ok so the main difference is the push...
Another question, sketching, a Moonwalk Sonic 12-23 is Charge 12 0.5 ~ Charge 13-23 0.5? -
Date: Mon, May 26 2008 06:59:49
Yep.
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Date: Fri, Jun 13 2008 16:45:34
I have some qualms with the trick list on the wiki.
In order of appearance:
Windshield Wiper and Windshield Wiper Reverse are listed as aerial tricks and should have 'release' following them to make them an aerial (Windshield Wiper Release for example), otherwise they would simply be a Through-Spin.
ThumbAround Riser (and its variations) are listed under Arounds when they are actually Aerial tricks.
I notice Moonwalk Sonic is still listed in spite of it being another name for Sonic 12-23 that is not required.
There should be an Inverse ArmRoll during which the pen rolls on the other side of the arm?
I believe I saw Erirornal K. do an Inverse ThumbSpin? No Inverse spins are listed for ThumbSpin...
Also, I noticed there is no way to distinguish which way a pen travels during an Around. For example, if I begin a Fingerless IndexAround with the pen on top of the index finger and allow it go around with it passing under the finger, there appears to be no way to distinguish this from a regular IndexAround? Or at least, if there is a way, it is not listed in that trick list. -
Date: Fri, Jun 13 2008 16:48:13QUOTE (Fresh @ Jun 13 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have some qualms with the trick list on the wiki.
In order of appearance:
Windshield Wiper and Windshield Wiper Reverse are listed as aerial tricks and should have 'release' following them to make them an aerial (Windshield Wiper Release for example), otherwise they would simply be a Through-Spin.
ThumbAround Riser (and its variations) are listed under Arounds when they are actually Aerial tricks.
I notice Moonwalk Sonic is still listed in spite of it being another name for Sonic 12-23 that is not required.
There should be an Inverse ArmRoll during which the pen rolls on the other side of the arm?
I believe I saw Erirornal K. do an Inverse ThumbSpin? No Inverse spins are listed for ThumbSpin...
moonwalk sonic != sonic 12-23
and i belive what you saw was palmspin
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Date: Fri, Jun 13 2008 17:16:06QUOTE (minche @ Jun 13 2008, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>moonwalk sonic != sonic 12-23
and i belive what you saw was palmspin
I believe it is you who needs to read the wiki.
Erirornal Kraione assured me that it was an Inverse ThumbSpin he performed. The video is on his blog. -
Date: Fri, Jun 13 2008 17:22:05
Yeah, Eriror does an Inv TS, and Chau has also been doing the I believe. And for the Moonwalk Sonic, I'm not sure we ever released anything about it? But we've been talking about taking away the modifier "Moonwalk", since it's the same motion although moving in the other direction of Sonic.
As I see it, Windshield Wipers aren't supposed to be listed as Aerials, as the whole point as that they travel along the hand and not through the air.
Agreed on the rest. -
Date: Fri, Jun 13 2008 17:22:32
there is indeed an inverse thumbspin, and the moonwalk sonic is now a sonic 12-23
im not sure what you mean with that last statement about the around though, Fresh...
EDIT: At Sfsr, i believe we already released an article on that, didn't we? -
Date: Fri, Jun 13 2008 17:55:08
Well for the arounds, you can put say a MiddleAround in the following ways:
MA 12-12
MA 23-23
The MA 12-12 would travel in the same direction as the regular MA (23-23) but start and finish in 12 instead. -
Date: Fri, Jun 13 2008 22:58:14
oh we didnt release an article... but we took the vote right? what's up with that?
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Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 00:39:37QUOTE (minche @ Jun 13 2008, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>moonwalk sonic != sonic 12-23
sonic 12-23 != sonic 23-12 != sonic reverse 12-23
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Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 12:33:44
uhh sorry, didn't read it right, i thought it was sonic 23-12
and i really didn't know there was inverse ts
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Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 12:36:13
So if now a Moonwalk Sonic 12-23 is a Sonic 12-23, what would be a Sonic Fall? Sonic 12-23 > Sonic 23-34 or Sonic Rev 12-23 > Sonic Rev 23-34? Or now exist both Sonic Fall and Sonic Reverse Fall? If yes, the Sonic Rise Fall Harmo changes...
What is a Pseudo Twisted Sonic 23-23? Twisted Sonic 23-12~ Moonwalk Sonic 12-23 (now Sonic 12-23) or Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Pass 12-23 (double charge), as taichi says?
And I think the Naming Comitee should clarificate the differences between Release and Riser.
Thanks -
Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 12:36:58
Yeah there is, I've seen it a lot (Inv. TS)
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Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 13:31:44QUOTE (Freeman @ Jun 14 2008, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So if now a Moonwalk Sonic 12-23 is a Sonic 12-23, what would be a Sonic Fall? Sonic 12-23 > Sonic 23-34 or Sonic Rev 12-23 > Sonic Rev 23-34? Or now exist both Sonic Fall and Sonic Reverse Fall? If yes, the Sonic Rise Fall Harmo changes...
Harmonic has always been Normal -> Reverse, so we're not changing that. As for calling Sonic 12-23 -> Sonic 23-34 for Sonic Fall, just write out the tricks instead, it doesn't take that much more time.QUOTE (Freeman @ Jun 14 2008, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What is a Pseudo Twisted Sonic 23-23? Twisted Sonic 23-12~ Moonwalk Sonic 12-23 (now Sonic 12-23) or Twisted Sonic 23-12 > Pass 12-23 (double charge), as taichi says?
Pseudo Twisted Sonic doesn't exist, since Twisted Sonic consists of a Charge and a Pass, and the Charge doesn't change the slot, and the Pass doesn't have any clear rotation. Pseudo Sonic is called so since it looks like a Sonic is being preformed, but actually the pen doesn't change slot. With Twisted Sonic there simply is no such thing, so we're not going to use Pseudo there. Pseudo Sonic is the name of the trick, Pseudo isn't a modifier that can be applied to any trick.QUOTE (Freeman @ Jun 14 2008, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And I think the Naming Comitee should clarificate the differences between Release and Riser.We have pretty much already, I just think we have not released the article about it yet. -
Date: Sat, Jun 14 2008 13:33:34
Thank you very much.
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Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 06:53:20
but no... sonic fall uses sonic revs... that's already established
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Date: Sun, Jun 15 2008 20:04:34QUOTE (Freeman @ Jun 14 2008, 05:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...And I think the Naming Comitee should clarificate the differences between Release and Riser.
Release and Riser definitions comment thread. -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 02:07:29
My question was missed. What's the correct breakdown for the old name "fake index spin"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myFCwNvw78c
It starts at 34 seconds. It's like a halftap that goes over the index finger and ends in 12. -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 03:02:18
"Fake IndexSpin" = Halftap 0.5 T1 ~ IA 0.5 T1-12
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Date: Fri, Jun 20 2008 02:04:10
Does tipped sonic go up or down the hand?
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Date: Fri, Jun 20 2008 02:44:45
Direction of tipped sonic is the same with sonic. Tipped sonic normal go up, reverse down.
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Date: Sat, Jun 21 2008 06:21:37
except... there is no tipped sonic normal/reverse. it's just tipped sonic and whatever finger slots you choose
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Date: Sat, Jun 21 2008 22:59:31
Look at the wiki.
Tipped Sonic in the Wiki -
Date: Sun, Jun 22 2008 03:04:13
the wiki isn't god. for one thing, the moonwalk sonic and pseudo sonic articles need to be removed are at least changed to inform people that they no longer are used, right? and seeing as the tipped sonic and tipped sonic reverse are the exact same thing, and moonwalk sonics have been abolished so that direction no longer matters, there is logically only a tipped sonic. No reverse.
Tipped sonic 12-23
Tipped sonic 23-12
is there really any way to mix that up? -
Date: Tue, Jun 24 2008 05:04:20
As far as the NC is concerned, Tipped Sonic is currently similar to Sonic but has a flat, see-saw motion instead of a conical motion. Tipped Sonic Normal would move in the same direction (up the hand) as Sonic Normal. Tipped Sonic Reverse would move in the same direction (down the hand) as Sonic Reverse.
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Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 01:10:12
How do I formally notate this -
Charge 0.5 23-12 ~> Pass 0.5 12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
or
Charge 0.5 23-12 ~> Inv Sonic 1.0 23-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
? -
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 01:30:42QUOTE (thig @ Jul 16 2008, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>How do I formally notate this -
Charge 0.5 23-12 ~> Pass 0.5 12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
or
Charge 0.5 23-12 ~> Inv Sonic 1.0 23-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
?
Since when can a charge switch slots? -
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 01:55:53
haha sorry. I meant -
Charge 0.5 23 ~> Pass Rev 23-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
Charge 0.5 23 ~> Inv Sonic 23-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
How do I formally notate these? -
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 06:01:51QUOTE (thig @ Jul 16 2008, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>haha sorry. I meant -
Charge 0.5 23 ~> Pass Rev 23-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
Charge 0.5 23 ~> Inv Sonic 23-12 >~ Charge 0.5 12
How do I formally notate these?
that sounds correct. -
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 18:50:31
I mean with the [p], [s], and [c] things.
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Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 19:57:24
Charge 23 [p][s .5] ~ Pass Rev 23-12 [p][s][c] > Charge 12 [s .5][c]
similarly for the second one. -
Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 17:56:59
Question for the NC:
I've been doing this trick, that is similar to an iSonc, but I'm not sure if its just a variation on it or a new trick.
You can see it in the Infinity Collab at 3:11
Sketching told me that the beginning is probably just Wiper Normal 13. Can anyone else on the naming comitee help with the second part? (If you cant tell from the video, I kind of use my middle finger (2) to push the pen around, reversing the previous action and making the pen end up behind my hand).
I know that its not really an iSonic, since there is no sonic action involved, so maybe an iWiper? lol. I really have no idea if its new or not.. -
Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 22:25:16
I think that the part where you use your finger to push the pen back after the Wiper Reverse 13 would be the Wiper Normal 13, I don't know about the catch portion.
Maybe Wiper Normal 13 ~ iSonic 123[c] -
Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 23:43:17
in that breakdown, doesn't the iSonic part imply that the pen basically does 1/2 a sonic and is caught behind the hand?
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Date: Sat, Jul 26 2008 04:19:33
Since the Wiper Normal is done fully, the iSonic catch would just have the pen coming to a stop behind the fingers as iSonic normally does.
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Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 13:54:44
Which of this two videos is the correct for an Out-In Sonic?
I think it is the first, but many people say that is the second: Sonic 34-23 ~ Inverse Sonic 23-12.
Out-In Sonic version 1
Out-In Sonic version 2
EDIT: Another thing, isn't Backspin 1.5 the correct name for Backaround 1.5?
Here is a video example. -
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 22:42:56
The first video is correct: Sonic 0.5 34-23 ~ Charge 0.5 12. It uses the ending of this version of Inverse Sonic, rather than this version. Don't mind the names for either video. The Out-In Sonic hybrid only has 1.0 rotation total.
Backaround 1.5+ should be a form of Backspin 1.5+, just like Thumbspin can start and end like a Thumbaround, but it's not. :/ -
Date: Sun, Aug 10 2008 22:48:44
I have a doubt about the fingeraround notation also. How the multi-fingeraround tricks are officially named? What is the correct name for ipba/piba 2.0 backaround tricks? Would it be something like:
CODEFingerless IndexAround 12-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Fingerless Shadow [s 0.5] ~ Fingerless Demon's Shadow [s 1.0][c 34]? -
Date: Mon, Aug 11 2008 00:49:45
Some thoughts about Out-In Sonic/In-Out Sonic:
It looks like the In-Out Sonic was created first. It was mentioned on Tholz' website but the video is no longer aviable. The oldest video I found is this *video* from Leviathan.QUOTE (Tholz)Another trick of my own invention. A Combo-Like, but actually a trick of its own. What can I say about this trick? Hmm... It seems like a Combination of Inverse Sonic 34(Pinky and Ring Finger) Normal and Sonic 23(Middle and Ring Finger) Normal. The only thing is that the trick does only one spin
When I'm doing this hybrid it feels like I move the pen from the 24 slot during the inv Sonic immediately into the 13 slot to perform the second part of the Sonic normal.
If you do the Out-In Sonic in the same way you have to do a Sonic 34-23 0.5 then move the pen from 24 to 13 to end it with the second half of an inv Sonic 23-12. Now if you add a Charge 0.5 before and after the Out-In Sonic you get the combo of Freeman's Out-In Sonic version 2.
Freeman's Out-In Sonic version 1 is considered the real Out-In Sonic in the GPC too. However some Spinners think the Hybrid looks more like some kind of Pass. If you do the trick without the charge motion (like tipped Sonic) it looks like Pass 34-23 > Pass rev 23-12 done at the same time. The resulting trick would be some kind of Pass 34-12 with no actuall rotation. Out-In Sonic version 1 would be:
Charge 34 0.5 ~> "Pass 34-12" >~ Charge 12 0.5 with the idea of the twisted Sonic hybrid in mind. The "Pass 34-12" might need its own name like "Out-In Pass".
Here are two videos to show what I am trying to ewplain:
Video 1
#1 "Pass 34-12"
#2 "Pass 34 T1" same idea as #1 with a different ending slot
#3 original In-Out Sonic
#4 my way to do Out-In Sonic in the same way as the original In-Out Sonic
Slow motion: Out-In Sonic and Out-In Sonic with Charge motion before and after (actually I forgot the Charge motion in 12)
After filming that I got another idea how to do Out-In Sonic and according to this another way to do In-Out Sonic. I realized that these are just Sonic 34-12 with one finger streched and one finger curled. This looks like how the Out-In Sonic was supposed to be performed but trick #1 in my first video looks the same and is alot easier. That's why the trick is peformed as a "Pass 34-12". If you do the Out-In Sonic like a Sonic 34-12 fast enough, the time the pen is in the 14 slot is almost zero and the trick turns into the "Pass 34-12".
Video 2
#1 like Out-In Sonic
#2 like In-Out Sonic -
Date: Mon, Aug 11 2008 01:34:59
i dont get why people keep saying these things only have one spin. the out in/in out sonics and their reverses all have 1.5 revolutions.
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Date: Mon, Aug 11 2008 19:07:07
Because tohlz, the guy who invented it, said that In Out Sonic only has 1 rotation, and performed it with only 1 rotation, using the hybrid version of Inverse Sonic. Since In Out Sonic only has 1 rotation, Out In Sonic would also have only 1 rotation, along with the Reverses of both hybrids.
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Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 08:42:41
I have question about some new type of FingerArounds.
http://rutube.ru/tracks/469567.html?v=0b03...440c40dd6563d3d
In this video u can see PinkyAround reverse 34-34, but not with FingerLess push, it's with Ring finger push.
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=iknAOyTpGQc
In this collab Immortal did RingAround reverse 23-23 in the same way as previos trick.
How i must named this trick? Because in PinkyAround reverse 34-34 with ring push hand can be also in the palm vertical position, but the pen goes under the finer (UnderAround?). Maybe write hand position or something like that? -
Date: Fri, Aug 15 2008 20:25:50
It is just called a Pinkyaround Reverse. Pinkyarounds have always been done with the hand in a different position than the other Fingerarounds. Just like an Indexaround T1-T1 starts above the index finger and goes underneath it, no change in the name. The around is the most important part of a Fingeraround, not the starting/ending position. If the pen goes around a finger in the same direction as a usual Fingeraround, it would be a Fingeraround. If anything, you could specify however you want that the hand is in a different position (upside-down, inverted, however you want to describe it) but the trick itself does not need to change. Don't forget that a trick is usually done in a combination, so the position of the hand during the previous trick and proceeding trick will also help to tell what position the hand is in during the Pinkyaround if you don't want to specify a hand position for that trick.
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Date: Sat, Aug 16 2008 05:04:00QUOTE (sketching @ Aug 11 2008, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Because tohlz, the guy who invented it, said that In Out Sonic only has 1 rotation, and performed it with only 1 rotation, using the hybrid version of Inverse Sonic. Since In Out Sonic only has 1 rotation, Out In Sonic would also have only 1 rotation, along with the Reverses of both hybrids.
but knowing what we do now, shouldnt we change it? to do it with 1 rotation makes it a direct fingerswitch > fingerswitch right into 23. Which means it's just a sonic -
Date: Sat, Aug 16 2008 16:12:47
You are combining atleast 2 pushes, which would still have them be hybrids.
Out In Sonic = Ringaround Reverse 34 0.25 ~ Charge 0.75 12
In Out Sonic = "fingerswitch" 34-24 ~ Charge 0.25 24-13 ~ Charge 0.75 13-12 -
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 02:11:08QUOTE (Jacobä @ Aug 10 2008, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have a doubt about the fingeraround notation also. How the multi-fingeraround tricks are officially named? What is the correct name for ipba/piba 2.0 backaround tricks? Would it be something like:CODEFingerless IndexAround 12-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Fingerless Shadow [s 0.5] ~ Fingerless Demon's Shadow [s 1.0][c 34]?
Just quoting myself in case my post have passed unnoticed. -
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 17:20:22
You are talking about both Fingerarounds and Backarounds, which would be different and are currently handled slightly differently when more rotations than normal are involved.
Fingerarounds just go around a finger otherwise you need to introduce Shadows/Backspins/Palmspins/etc... depending on what you doing. You would use hybrid notation along with whatever trick is most appropriate.
Backarounds currently allow spins as long as the spins are in the middle of the trick, without needing to use any other trick. They would just be Backaround 1.5+. -
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 21:56:22QUOTE (sketching @ Aug 17 2008, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You are talking about both Fingerarounds and Backarounds, which would be different and are currently handled slightly differently when more rotations than normal are involved.
Fingerarounds just go around a finger otherwise you need to introduce Shadows/Backspins/Palmspins/etc... depending on what you doing. You would use hybrid notation along with whatever trick is most appropriate.
Backarounds currently allow spins as long as the spins are in the middle of the trick, without needing to use any other trick. They would just be Backaround 1.5+.
Hmm, ok, it is clearer now.
And my other question was about the multi-fingearound tricks (IndexMiddlearound for example).
Is there a specific notation for it? I mean, i can do an IndexRingaround both making the pen rotate around the 123 fingers or benting my midle finger inside the hand.
Thanks -
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 22:49:54
If the pen rotates around 123, wouldn't that be an IndexMiddleRingaround?
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Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 04:18:50
If it goes around both fingers, I've been calling it by both fingers: IndexMiddlearound starts in the 23 slot, goes over the index finger with both the index & middle fingers together, and ends in the 23 slot.
If the pen starts in the 34 slot, goes over the index, middle and ring fingers together, I'd call it a IndexMiddleRingaround 34-34.
If it starts in the 12 slot, goes over the index finger, ends in the 23 slot, I would still call that just an Indexaround with a different ending position. There was a discussion somewhere that was leading in that direction: the multi-finger names would be if the pen goes completely around both fingers, and it made sense to me.
A trick that starts in the 23 slot, goes up and over the index finger and middle finger together, but ends in the 12 slot. The pen mostly went around the index finger so I'd call it an Indexaround 23-12.
Going on the last example, if the pen started in the 34 slot, moved all the way over the index finger with the index, middle & ring fingers together, but ended in the 23 slot, I would call it an IndexMiddleAround 34-23. The pen did not go around the ring finger enough to warrant it being in the name.
...not sure how many other people would go along the same lines as I do though. If I wanted to make sure, I would probably go with a more complex hybrid breakdown to try and fully show what was happening, along with the video that the breakdown was for. -
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 15:39:39QUOTE (Jacobä @ Aug 17 2008, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I can do an IndexRingaround bending my midle finger inside the hand.
I agree with all you have said, Sketching, but I think he meant this. -
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 23:55:11
@Freeman: ah, yes. I would also call that an IndexRingaround 34-34.
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Date: Tue, Aug 19 2008 20:14:58
Are these Triple Charges correct?
Triple Charge compilation
The video is not mine, but I am confused because the Wiki says:
"Triple Charge 34-34 (trick notation)
* Twisted Sonic Normal 1.5 34-23 > Twisted Sonic Normal 1.5 23-12 > Pass Normal 0.5 12-23 > Pass Normal 0.5 23-34"
But in the vids I've seen, Triple Charge is performed on the other way. -
Date: Tue, Aug 19 2008 20:33:11
Triple Charge still isn't an official combo and so no official way to do it. See this UCPSB thread for some discussion of the combo with some ideas.
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Date: Tue, Aug 19 2008 23:21:40QUOTE (sketching @ Aug 19 2008, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Triple Charge still isn't an official combo and so no official way to do it. See this UCPSB thread for some discussion of the combo with some ideas.
Ok thanks Sketching for the information. So, shouldn't the Wiki article for the Triple Charge be edited or eliminated?QUOTE (sketching @ Aug 17 2008, 07:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Backarounds currently allow spins as long as the spins are in the middle of the trick, without needing to use any other trick. They would just be Backaround 1.5+.QUOTE (sketching @ Aug 11 2008, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Backaround 1.5+ should be a form of Backspin 1.5+, just like Thumbspin can start and end like a Thumbaround, but it's not. :/
Sorry but I don't understand the difference between Backaround 1.5+ and Backspin 1.5+; while the difference between Thumbaround and Thumbspin or Indexaround and Indexspin is very clear to me.
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Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 01:10:41
Normally Thumbspin can be performed like a Thumbaround, but with a topspin in the middle of the trick.
Thumbspin can also describe just the topspin on the thumb.
Backaround 1.5+ is performed like a Backaround, but with a topspin on the back of the hand, the back of a finger or even the side of a finger, in the middle of the trick.
Backspin describes just the topspin on the back of the hand, like Palmspin describes just the topspin on the palm of the hand. -
Date: Wed, Aug 20 2008 08:52:23
I understand now, thanks Sketching.
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Date: Sat, Aug 23 2008 04:50:22
I was wondering, is an around trick done palm down still notated as just an around.
Example: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=DFfrsZAsxd8
I initially perform the IA palm down so it looks sort like an anti-gravity trick. Also, if I was able to do an inverse shadow palm down, would that be notated as anti-gravity inverse shadow? As it does defy gravity... -
Date: Sat, Aug 23 2008 05:28:18
The trick would just be notated as being palm-down, same as Sonics and such. The Naming Committee voted a long time ago to discourage use of the "anti-gravity" in trick naming, but nothing was ever released. >_< I'll go make a note in the wiki.
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Date: Sat, Aug 23 2008 20:43:54
In the wiki's Anti-gravity guides says: "palm-down Indexaround Reverse 11-11"
I think is "palm-down Fingerless Indexaround Reverse 11-11".
Correct me if I'm wrong.
EDIT: Another thing, is the name of "Dual Pass" (trick invented by Le0n) oficial? -
Date: Sat, Aug 23 2008 22:11:06
Yep, he invented the trick so he gets to name it.
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Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 02:34:04
Is this notated correctly?
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Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 03:31:07
If you did not use the hand motion, it would be. You don't seem to be pushing with the fingers individually.
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Date: Sun, Aug 24 2008 03:45:25QUOTE (sketching @ Aug 23 2008, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you did not use the hand motion, it would be. You don't seem to be pushing with the fingers individually.
Yeah, I'm new to it so there's the extra hand motion... :] Thanks. -
Date: Tue, Aug 26 2008 14:23:45
Sorry if I interrupted.
I'm just going to ask a few questions
1.How many families are there currently? Would you please list them out?
2.What is the different between "Around" and "Around Spin"? Or there are simplily no such a family called "Around"?
3.If an Palm-down Inverse Sonic 23-12 was interrupted by Shadow to 23when the pen reach 13.
Should I call this Palm-down Inverse Sonic 23-12[p 13][s .5]~Shadow 13-23[s 1.5][c 23]
Sorry for my grammatical mistake.
Sorry if these questions were answered some where.
Thanks alot! -
Date: Tue, Aug 26 2008 18:48:03
1. Spin types @ the wiki is the current setup.
2. "Around spin" is the spin type, "Around" is part of the name of a trick that uses the Around spin and is not normally said by itself except to stand for some kind of shorthand instead of actually saying a specific trick name.
3. palm-down Inverse Sonic 23-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Shadow 13-12 -
Date: Thu, Aug 28 2008 07:26:55QUOTE (sketching @ Aug 27 2008, 02:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>1. Spin types @ the wiki is the current setup.
2. "Around spin" is the spin type, "Around" is part of the name of a trick that uses the Around spin and is not normally said by itself except to stand for some kind of shorthand instead of actually saying a specific trick name.
3. palm-down Inverse Sonic 23-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Shadow 13-12
thx,
For Question 3
Am I correct to type
palm-down Inverse Sonic 23-12[p 13][s 0.5] ~ Shadow 13-12
?
Thx again -
Date: Thu, Aug 28 2008 07:44:03
No, you still push the pen with 23, not 13. No need to add anything extra, sketching's breakdown already covers it all.
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Date: Thu, Aug 28 2008 15:14:16
Sorry,I can't wait to ask, while I think I am supposed hold the questions and ask all of them in one time.
Am I OK to say:
"Infinity is one of the tricks with Through Spin." ?
Thx again. -
Date: Thu, Aug 28 2008 17:33:53
Infinity isn't trick, it's combo.
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Date: Thu, Aug 28 2008 18:16:38
yea infinity is a combo. The wiper is a trick that uses through-spin.
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Date: Mon, Sep 1 2008 14:16:08
Me again.
Are they correct?
"Hybird is a kind of Trick.Combos are series of Tricks or Hybirds."
"Combos cannot be classified into any spin types even though the combos are as simple as Double Charge."
"Devil's Sonic belongs to Conic Spin."
Sorry for my poor English. -
Date: Tue, Sep 2 2008 00:34:36
Definitions can be found in the wiki:
- Hybrid Combo: basically, a combo that has at least one partial trick to it. It's not a full combo, see next item for combos.
- Combo: 2 or more full tricks, hybrid combos or some combination of both. Combos do not have spin types. As an example, Double Charge includes tricks in both the Conic and Pass spin types.
- Devil's Sonic is not a single trick (it is a hybrid) and does not belong in a single spin type. Devil's Sonic includes tricks in the Conic, Pass and Top spin types. -
Date: Wed, Sep 10 2008 21:49:57
hi, i have a little question about a kind of pass. does a inverse pass exist? well if in the indexaround normal 13-12, finger 2 is like in sonic normal 23-12 (near the palm) and in the inverse indexaround normal 13-12, finger 2 is like in inverse sonic normal 23-12, when i do a pass normal 13-34 interrupting an inverse sonic normal 23-12, am i doing a inverse pass normal 13-34 or i must breakdown it like if i had interrupted a sonic normal 23-12?
excuse me for my poor english, i cant explain it better
PD: (((freeman, im editing im editing!!))) does a inv ia really exist? we are not sure now ^^"
PPD: what's the official name for thumbflap charge? thumbflap charge or charge tf? -
Date: Wed, Sep 10 2008 22:59:45
it should be clear based on what trick the pass interupted
if i say inverse sonic 23-13 ~> pass 13-34 then it's obviously the inverse way
altho i did have an idea for an "inverse pass" involving finger crossing... ill bring it up once i can do it -
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 20:31:08
How does one notate hand transfers and two-handed tricks? Can it only be done using formal notation or is there also an informal notation for it?
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Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 00:41:37
i dont think there's a formal way yet
if i were you i'd use [L] and [R] in the finger notations -
Date: Tue, Sep 30 2008 20:56:26QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Sep 28 2008, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i dont think there's a formal way yet
if i were you i'd use [L] and [R] in the finger notations
I figured that was the best way for now. Thanks shadow. -
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 00:55:52
I have a naming problem. Just do a rev sonic 12-34 with one spin between the finger switch. Palm down. Would that be a rev sonic 12-34 or a rev shadow 12-34?
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Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 04:20:41
a palm down sonic is still a sonic...
im not sure i understand the problem -
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 04:20:52
What do you mean by "one spin between the finger switch"?
-
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 04:23:09
i think he either
1) thinks palm down sonics are shadows
2) thinks sonic 12-34s are shadows
does the entire trick have 1.0 revolutions? -
Date: Wed, Oct 1 2008 22:54:12
Na, thats not what im talking about, we discussed it yesterday on the shoutbox, thanks though.
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Date: Sun, Oct 12 2008 13:02:09
I have few questions:
- Someone told me that in 13 Charge, if the middle finger is bent in, its normal and if bent out, inverse. If this is the case then what would you call a Charge 14 that has ring finger bent in and middle finger bent out and(or) vice versa?
- If a Charge 13 is considered inverse if middle finger is bent out, then using the same concept I could say Neo-Sonic 13-TF can also be considered inverse if the middle finger is bent out. Is this true?
- The same goes for a backaround. Can an Inverse Backaround 13 be: middle finger pulled out, pen held with 1 and 3?
- If the first question is applied to Neo-Sonic or Backaround what will it be called?
- Is In-Out Sonic and Out-In Sonic named hybrids or people just find it easier to call so. Can it be called Flush Sonic 34-23 even though it doesn't follow the same concept.
- Is a Palm Up Shadow possible? (not inverse)
- Is a Palm down Inverse Shadow possible?
- Is a Counter ThumbSpin Possible?
- Is there such a thing as a "Palm Roll"?
- Just wanted to know what exactl is an "extended bakfall"..I'm not sure what it's called.
Yea...thats it! - Someone told me that in 13 Charge, if the middle finger is bent in, its normal and if bent out, inverse. If this is the case then what would you call a Charge 14 that has ring finger bent in and middle finger bent out and(or) vice versa?
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Date: Wed, Oct 15 2008 00:37:34
inverse charge does not notate which finger is in or out, that is inferred from the previous trick.
same applies to the second question. An inverse backaround is an entirely different trick, starting in a palm up charge 0.5 position.
a neosonic is a passaround 0.5, and thus does not have an inverse.
in-out sonics are not flush sonics
and what do you consider a named hybrid?
people use it, so it's a name
however, i would highly advise against ever using it because it's inaccurate and confusing.
same goes for extended bakfall; Idk wtf that is, and i'm sure there's another way to notate it.
and for all the rest of your questions:
they are all possible, but extremely hard. -
Date: Sat, Oct 18 2008 20:46:49QUOTE (Outsmash @ Oct 12 2008, 05:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have few questions:
- Is a Palm Up Shadow possible? (not inverse)
Yes - Is a Palm down Inverse Shadow possible?
Yes, I've been able to do it. I do the inverse shadow palm down and sort of release the inv shadow into the air while keeping my hand over it. - Is a Counter ThumbSpin Possible?
Definitely. Thumbspin 1.5 > Fl rev thumbspin 1.5 is cake. - Is there such a thing as a "Palm Roll"?
I guess? - Just wanted to know what exactl is an "extended bakfall"..I'm not sure what it's called.
No such thing. If there is, some random person on youtube decided to name their bakfall variation that.
- Is a Palm Up Shadow possible? (not inverse)
-
Date: Thu, Oct 23 2008 16:40:28
I know you are working on xPxH notation, but will you consider expanding the notation for things such as:
- Wrist, Arm, Elbow
- Fingercrossing, Fingerswitching, (and maybe Fingerrolling)
- Side Sonics (in those where you have to move two fingers up and down, like 3 up and 2 down at the same time)
- Palm up / palm down / palm side...? -
Date: Thu, Oct 23 2008 23:28:58
why notate side sonic when it's already called side sonic? i don't get it
do you mean inverse sonic vs. sonic positions? those are generally inferred by the previous trick
xPxH is in progress...
and up/down is sort of >< -
Date: Fri, Oct 24 2008 11:38:47
It's hard to explain, for example you can do a Side Sonic 34-12 in three ways: moving 2 and 3 up at the same time, moving only 3 or moving only 2. And you can find these in some crazy hybrids.
And what about the two first points I mentioned:
- Wrist, Arm, Elbow
- Fingercrossing, Fingerswitching, (and maybe Fingerrolling)? -
Date: Sat, Oct 25 2008 01:36:35
oO do you mean flush side sonic?
oh i see what you're saying, i didn't see that 34-12 haha
uhm yeah i don't know how -
Date: Sat, Oct 25 2008 06:47:05QUOTE (Freeman @ Oct 24 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's hard to explain, for example you can do a Side Sonic 34-12 in three ways: moving 2 and 3 up at the same time, moving only 3 or moving only 2. And you can find these in some crazy hybrids.
And what about the two first points I mentioned:
- Wrist, Arm, Elbow
- Fingercrossing, Fingerswitching, (and maybe Fingerrolling)?
This can be dealt with if there are more tricks to do with the parts you specify:
Wrist, Arm and Elbow dont have like 15 tricks that its hard to differentiate... It wouldn't occur so much in a breakdown so you could just mention it in brackets..
Same goes for "Fingercrossing, Fingerswitching, (and maybe Fingerrolling)" --> They dont play much of an important role.
All these can/will be thought of eventually and for the timebeing since there are not that many tricks that involve them, you can just say what you want to in brackets. Probably like In-Out Sonic 34-12 (Finger Switch - 2down 3up) or something like that... -
Date: Sat, Oct 25 2008 23:55:25
You're right Outsmash, but it would be better an oficial way to notate it.
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Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 23:35:43
it just occurred to me that any 14 variation could be notated as some sort of of sonic hybrid
for example
flush sonic 23 ~ inverse sonic 14-12
flush sonic 23 ~ side flush sonic 23
flush sonic 23 ~ sonic 14-12
now, you asked for sonic 34-12 hybrids soo....
sonic clip 34-14 ~ inverse sonic 14-12
sonic clip 34-14 1.5 ~ flush sonic 0.0 14-23 yeah that's weird... i think you can kinda count the last 0.5 as in flush sonic position but idk
..i don't feel like doing the ring finger, but it'd involve inverse flush sonic
so yeah, you get the point
god that took a long time -
Date: Thu, Oct 30 2008 15:23:35
1) Is the reverse of anti-gravity known as gravity?
2) Is an inverse anti-gravity when you do it palm up or do you have to bend your finger backwards (which is impossible)?
3) How do you notate something where the pen is held with 11 22 and 33 or likewise? -
Date: Thu, Oct 30 2008 16:08:34QUOTE (Outsmash @ Oct 30 2008, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>1) Is the reverse of anti-gravity known as gravity?
No
2) Is an inverse anti-gravity when you do it palm up or do you have to bend your finger backwards (which is impossible)?
No
3) How do you notate something where the pen is held with 11 22 and 33 or likewise?
Err, Neosonic 12-11 -> Reverse Neosonic 11-12
For Anti-gravity, it is simply an old name that shouldn't be used anymore see more here -
Date: Thu, Oct 30 2008 16:11:47
@Outsmash, I think I can answer your questions:
"Antigravity" doesn't exist, now it is a Fingerless Indexaround Reverse 11-11 (of course, done palm down). And I think that answers your 3rd question, you can do Fingerless Indexaround 22-22, Fl IA Rev 33-44, etc.
The Reverse of Antigravity was known as Antigravity Reverse, now is a Fingerless Indexaround 11-11 (palm down).
And yes, what you say it would be an Inverse Antigravity, but I think it's impossible and, as I said, Antigravity name doesn't exist now. So, if possible, it would be a Fingerless Indexaround Reverse 11-11 (palm up).
EDIT: Sangara was faster than me -
Date: Thu, Oct 30 2008 16:30:12QUOTE (Freeman @ Oct 30 2008, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>@Outsmash, I think I can answer your questions:
"Antigravity" doesn't exist, now it is a Fingerless Indexaround Reverse 11-11 (of course, done palm down). And I think that answers your 3rd question, you can do Fingerless Indexaround 22-22, Fl IA Rev 33-44, etc.
The Reverse of Antigravity was known as Antigravity Reverse, now is a Fingerless Indexaround 11-11 (palm down).
And yes, what you say it would be an Inverse Antigravity, but I think it's impossible and, as I said, Antigravity name doesn't exist now. So, if possible, it would be a Fingerless Indexaround Reverse 11-11 (palm up).
EDIT: Sangara was faster than me
Thanks for the info but you did not answer my 3rd question like you said. My question was how would you notate something like:
Twisted Sonic 23-12 --> IA Rev 12-112244??
(1,2 and 4 hold the pen on the palm while 3 is raised.)
-
Date: Thu, Oct 30 2008 16:48:17QUOTE (Outsmash @ Oct 30 2008, 09:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks for the info but you did not answer my 3rd question like you said. My question was how would you notate something like:
Twisted Sonic 23-12 --> IA Rev 12-112244?? (1,2 and 4 hold the pen on the palm while 3 is raised.)
Hrm, Neosonic 12-124P -
Date: Mon, Nov 3 2008 22:06:58
I think the correct name for the following arounds is that:
IndexRingaround
RingMiddlearound
IndexRingMiddlearound
IndexRingaround
But which names are correct for there Backarounds?
IndexMiddleBackaround / MiddleIndexBackaround
RingMiddleBackaround / MiddleRingBackaround
PinkyRingBackaround / RingPinkyBackaround
IndexMiddleRingBackaround?
MiddleRingPinkyBackaround?
Thanks in advance -
Date: Tue, Nov 4 2008 00:02:49
uhm well it's basically just two fingers, the one it starts around and the one it ends around (unless it ends around more)
the most common example is the indexpinky bak
starts as a pinkybak, ends around index.
now, if you wanted to start as a pinkybak and end as a midbak, it's be an middlepinky bak.
BUT if you wanted it to start as a pinkybak, go around your index AND your middle and end in 23, it'd be an indexmiddlepinkybak 34-23
...i think
im kinda going out on a limb for this stuff based on my observations of the IPBA -
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 15:46:05
If a MiddleIndexBak (MIB) is one where you start with the midbak position but it goes around both and ends up in the 12 slot (midbak position, usually) then what is it when you do the trick with both 1 and 2 (holding the pen in the 23 slot).
Basically, the pen is held in the 23 slot, below the COP and a bak is done around the 12 back to the 23 slot. -
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 15:57:35
So you're starting in the Midbak position, and then doing said Midbak but going around the Index... MiddleIndexBak 23-23 1.5 I think it's only possible with 1.5
-
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 21:52:52QUOTE (sangara @ Nov 7 2008, 07:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So you're starting in the Midbak position, and then doing said Midbak but going around the Index... MiddleIndexBak 23-23 1.5 I think it's only possible with 1.5
It's basically a bak that goes around two fingers. Which means it's still only rotation. A middleindexbak 23-23 1.0. -
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 23:43:13QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Nov 7 2008, 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's basically a bak that goes around two fingers. Which means it's still only rotation. A middleindexbak 23-23 1.0.
Huh that's weird when ever I try to do it it's 1.5,
-
Date: Sat, Nov 8 2008 06:26:35
you must be doing it 12-12?
-
Date: Sat, Nov 8 2008 06:36:37
I'm pretty sure it's 23, but I figured out where the rotation is coming from, for some reason when it comes over the tops of the fingers it has an extra. Maybe its the MX? Idk...
-
Date: Sun, Nov 9 2008 13:41:57
I dont know if my explanation was wrong but here's a video: (you must be knowing what I'm talking about now)
I think it's in this order:
1) MIB
2) The thing I was talking about
3) MIB
4) Cont. MIB -
Date: Mon, Nov 10 2008 05:24:42QUOTE (Outsmash @ Nov 9 2008, 05:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I dont know if my explanation was wrong but here's a video: (you must be knowing what I'm talking about now)
I think it's in this order:
1) MIB
2) The thing I was talking about
3) MIB
4) Cont. MIB
Things you did:
MIB 23-23
MIB 123-23
Cont MIB 23 - 12 > FL Pass 12-23 -
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2008 14:35:40QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Nov 10 2008, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Things you did:
MIB 23-23
MIB 123-23
Cont MIB 23 - 12 > FL Pass 12-23
I think I did:
MIB 23-12
MIB 23-23
Cont MIB 23-12 --> FL Pass 12-23
Btw whats tossed TA? -
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2008 21:14:07QUOTE (Outsmash @ Nov 12 2008, 06:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think I did:
MIB 23-12
MIB 23-23
Cont MIB 23-12 --> FL Pass 12-23
Btw whats tossed TA?
The trick at 00:06 is a MIB 123-23. You hold it betwen three fingers.
The other tricks are basically just MIBs in different slots. -
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2008 13:39:02QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Nov 13 2008, 02:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The trick at 00:06 is a MIB 123-23. You hold it betwen three fingers.
The other tricks are basically just MIBs in different slots.
That's not my point though.. (even if you are right)..
When everyone was talking about IPBA Rev 2.0 I thought 2 and 3 will bend down ( 1 and 4 up)..catching the pen below 1 and 4 holding it against 2 and 3 and doing a bak rev whih comes back o the same position.
Now what would that be called?
-
Date: Fri, Nov 14 2008 00:30:36
...you need to describe things better
that would probably be some kind of bak 14-34
idk -
Date: Fri, Nov 14 2008 05:58:35QUOTE (Outsmash @ Nov 13 2008, 05:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That's not my point though.. (even if you are right)..
When everyone was talking about IPBA Rev 2.0 I thought 2 and 3 will bend down ( 1 and 4 up)..catching the pen below 1 and 4 holding it against 2 and 3 and doing a bak rev whih comes back o the same position.
Now what would that be called?
Not sure what you're saying dude.
But, IPBA Rev spins on top of the hand, palm down. IPBA spins palm up.... Does that help?... -
Date: Fri, Nov 14 2008 06:07:26
oO wait what?
since when oO -
Date: Fri, Nov 14 2008 06:09:24QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Nov 13 2008, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>oO wait what?
since when oO
Indexpinkybak Normal = Palm up
Indexpinkybak Rev = Palm down
Pretty sure that's notated correctly. I shall post a vid later. No camera or tripod with me right now. -
Date: Fri, Nov 14 2008 06:15:43
hmm well i see how it could be done palm side...
but it seems naturally palm down to me
or... do you just mean the starting position?
cuz yea it'd start palm side but after that...
so idk
see i cant actually do either one but i thought i understood it
so yeah idk im going to sleep anyways, we'll figure it out later -
Date: Sat, Nov 15 2008 03:51:27QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Nov 13 2008, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>hmm well i see how it could be done palm side...
but it seems naturally palm down to me
or... do you just mean the starting position?
cuz yea it'd start palm side but after that...
so idk
see i cant actually do either one but i thought i understood it
so yeah idk im going to sleep anyways, we'll figure it out later
Here's the vid:
-
Date: Sat, Nov 15 2008 04:01:03
...what... the hell....
i thought it was...
basically the opposite of the rev ><
i thought u started as a pinkybak and let it go around the index...
are you sure? -
Date: Sat, Nov 15 2008 05:58:32QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Nov 14 2008, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...what... the hell....
i thought it was...
basically the opposite of the rev ><
i thought u started as a pinkybak and let it go around the index...
are you sure?
Well, since it's indexpinkybak, that means it spins about the index first. A pinkyindexbak spins around the pinky first.
Another vid:
-
Date: Sat, Nov 15 2008 07:12:08
yeah i guess you're right... i always just assumed the names were reversed for some weird BA reason lol
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Date: Sat, Nov 15 2008 07:15:41QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Nov 14 2008, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>yeah i guess you're right... i always just assumed the names were reversed for some weird BA reason lol
BA Reason...? -
Date: Sat, Nov 15 2008 07:53:09
backaround.. like... maybe it was notating where it was going to first.. idk T_T
guess i was wrong lol -
Date: Sat, Nov 15 2008 12:42:31
So this answers my question.
The first finger in the name is the first the pen goes around? -
Date: Sun, Nov 16 2008 01:29:45QUOTE (Freeman @ Nov 15 2008, 04:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yessir. -
Date: Tue, Nov 18 2008 21:59:00
I have trouble when naming Rise Fall Harmonic:
Sonic Reverse 12-23 > Sonic Reverse 23-34 > Sonic Normal 34-23 > Sonic Normal 23-12 has to be written as Sonic Rise Fall Harmonic, Sonic Fall Rise Harmonic, Sonic Rise Harmonic or Sonic Fall Harmonic?
Which of the 4?
The same happens to me with similar tricks.
Another question, is the Triangle Pass Bonkura did with the back of his fingers another type of Triangle Pass?
I mean, the normal one (done with the fingertips) is a Triangle Pass Normal 123, for example.
But is that one done with the back of the fingers an Inverse Triangle Pass Normal 123 or anything like that? -
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 00:07:43
i dont know what triangle pass you're talking about
vid?
and for the rise/fall/harmonic thing, seriously, just list the tricks -
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 11:14:20
Name it:
Sonic Fall --> Sonic Rise (or) Sonic 12-23-34-23-12 ....
I'm guessing it's a Triangle Pass 123 Reverse cuz I dont think Pass's can have inverses. -
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 12:45:43
Thanks Outsmash I also thought that later
. Thanks also Shadowserpant.
That Triangle Pass isn't Reverse, is Normal, here's a vid:
Bonkura: a legend
Look at minute 12:35
EDIT:
@NC: It is correct to say "Sonic 12-23-34", and "Pass 12-23-34-23-12"?
@Outsmash, Sonic 12-23-34-23-12 wouldn't work, because you're mixing Sonic Normal and Sonic Reverse. -
Date: Thu, Nov 20 2008 02:50:41QUOTE (Outsmash @ Nov 19 2008, 03:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Name it:
Sonic Fall --> Sonic Rise (or) Sonic 12-23-34-23-12 ....
I'm guessing it's a Triangle Pass 123 Reverse cuz I dont think Pass's can have inverses.
What i meant was, you've no need of using Sonic rise or fall harmonic. Just list the tricks in your breakdown.
I would indeed call it an inverse triangle pass. The triangle pass is not a pass, so i don't know what you're getting at.
But...
well idk if inverse triangle pass reverses the direction or not.
if it does, then the one he did was normal.
if not, he did an inverse triangle pass rev -
Date: Fri, Nov 21 2008 23:37:33
Thanks.
Two more questions:
1 - I once read the breakdown of the Backfall and it was something like:
Indexbackaround 12-12 > Fl Pass 12-23 > Middlebackaround 23-23 > Fl Pass 23-34 > Ringbackaround > Pinkybackaround.
Do Fl Passes exist? Or these are Pass (technically), but in practice are like Fl Pass?
2 - Someone said me on Youtube that my Devil's Sonic 8.0 was, in fact, a Devil's Spin 8.0. Which is the correct name? -
Date: Sat, Nov 22 2008 00:08:58
yes there are FL passes, i suppose their the same as FL around 0.5s
the devils shadow, for example, contains a FL pass, and i think the fake double has 2
it's a very iffy concept i think
and no it isnt a devils spin, because the devils sonic is a named hybrid, and it isnt an around -
Date: Sat, Nov 22 2008 03:47:23
@Freeman:
Here's how the pen travels through my fingers for "Bak" Fall:
FL Indexaround Rev 1.0 12-12 > Pass 0.25 12-23 ~ FL Middlearound Rev 0.75 123-23 > Pass 0.25 23-34 ~ FL Ringaround Rev 0.75 234-34 > FL Pinkyaround Rev 1.0 34-34
RE: FL Passes. I'm just using FL Fingeraround Rev 0.5 instead. Passes need to be held throughout the trick so FL Pass doesn't make sense in that context.
Does the Devil's "Something" end in the same finger slot that it started in, or does it end in a finger slot above where it started. Same slot should equal a Devil's Around variation. One slot above should equal a Devil's Sonic variation, if the pen is not going fully around any finger.
Devil's Spin is an old name for Devil's Around. -
Date: Sat, Nov 22 2008 05:47:53QUOTE (From Fundamental Tricks)Are the fundamentals?
(1). FL TA
(2). FL TA Rev
(3). TF Charge Rev (FL)
(4). TS
(5). Rev TS
(6). FL TS (Rev)
(7). If (1) is considered a fundamental the can Double TA be a fundamental? (since double TA = TA --> FL TA)
(8) Fundamental Combos can involve hybrid within Fundamental right?? ( Twisted Sonic, Warped Sonic, Demon Sonic, etc.)
-
Date: Sat, Nov 22 2008 06:58:35
As far as I know...
There are 4 Fundamentals (3 tricks, 1 combo): Thumbaround Normal T2-T1, Charge Normal 23, Sonic Normal 23-12, Fingerpass Normal (Pass 12-23 > Pass 23-34 > Pass 34-23 > Pass 23-12). The tricks done in different finger slots, in different directions and on different sides of the fingers are all separate tricks based on the 4 Fundamental tricks/combo.
Fingerless Thumbaround & Fingerless Thumbaround Reverse are variations of the Fundamental trick: Thumbaround Normal. Just like Thumbaround Reverse is a variation, not the actual Fundamental. They are both tricks based on a Fundamental (Thumbaround Normal) and another variation of that Fundamental (Thumbaround Reverse).
Thumbflap Charge Reverse is a variation of the Fundamental trick: Charge Normal.
Thumbspin Normal is a variation of the Fundemental: Thumbaround Normal.
Thumbspin Reverse is variation of Thumbaround Reverse and Thumbspin Normal.
Fingerless Thumbspin Normal & Fingerless Thumbspin Reverse are variations of the Fundamental: Thumbaround, along with Thumbaround Reverse and TS Normal & Reverse. Different tricks based on other tricks.
With all that said, Double Thumbaround is not a Fundamental. There is only 1 Fundamental combo: Fingerpass Normal. The same is said for any other combos/hybrids involving Fundamental tricks. They are seperate combos/hybrids that only use a Fundamental trick(s), they are not Fundamentals themselves. -
Date: Sat, Nov 22 2008 07:33:46QUOTE (sketching @ Nov 22 2008, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As far as I know...
There are 4 Fundamentals (3 tricks, 1 combo): Thumbaround Normal T2-T1, Charge Normal 23, Sonic Normal 23-12, Fingerpass Normal (Pass 12-23 > Pass 23-34 > Pass 34-23 > Pass 23-12). The tricks done in different finger slots, in different directions and on different sides of the fingers are all separate tricks based on the 4 Fundamental tricks/combo.
Fingerless Thumbaround & Fingerless Thumbaround Reverse are variations of the Fundamental trick: Thumbaround Normal. Just like Thumbaround Reverse is a variation, not the actual Fundamental. They are both tricks based on a Fundamental (Thumbaround Normal) and another variation of that Fundamental (Thumbaround Reverse).
Thumbflap Charge Reverse is a variation of the Fundamental trick: Charge Normal.
Thumbspin Normal is a variation of the Fundemental: Thumbaround Normal.
Thumbspin Reverse is variation of Thumbaround Reverse and Thumbspin Normal.
Fingerless Thumbspin Normal & Fingerless Thumbspin Reverse are variations of the Fundamental: Thumbaround, along with Thumbaround Reverse and TS Normal & Reverse. Different tricks based on other tricks.
With all that said, Double Thumbaround is not a Fundamental. There is only 1 Fundamental combo: Fingerpass Normal. The same is said for any other combos/hybrids involving Fundamental tricks. They are seperate combos/hybrids that only use a Fundamental trick(s), they are not Fundamentals themselves.
So If I were to create a Fundametal combo can i use TW Sonic and Warped Sonic, Demon Sonic etc..? Can I also use FL TS and TS and all that? -
Date: Sat, Nov 22 2008 09:38:13QUOTE (sketching @ Nov 22 2008, 04:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Does the Devil's "Something" end in the same finger slot that it started in, or does it end in a finger slot above where it started. Same slot should equal a Devil's Around variation. One slot above should equal a Devil's Sonic variation, if the pen is not going fully around any finger.
Devil's Spin is an old name for Devil's Around.
It was 23-12, and you say it equals to a Devil's Sonic variation. Does that mean it was Devil's Sonic 8.0, or have I to notate the breakdown of it (Twisted Sonic Normal 23-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Shadow Normal 12-12[s 7.5][c])? -
Date: Sat, Nov 22 2008 20:23:52QUOTE (Outsmash)So If I were to create a Fundametal combo can i use TW Sonic and Warped Sonic, Demon Sonic etc..? Can I also use FL TS and TS and all that?A "Fundamental combo" would be a combo only using Fundamentals. Since the hybrid idea is not a Fundamental trick/idea, Twisted Sonic, Warped Sonic, ect... wouldn't work, IMO. Thumbspin adds the topspin element that is not a Fundamental, so...no. All the named Devil's/Demon's/etc... hybrids wouldn't work for me for the same reason that Twisted Sonic wouldn't work, they are hybrids, along with using non-Fundamental-trick parts. Same goes for Fingerless versions, they are more advanced tricks based off of the Fundamentals, but are not the actual Fundamentals.
Fundamental combos are boring.QUOTE ("Freeman")It was 23-12, and you say it equals to a Devil's Sonic variation. Does that mean it was Devil's Sonic 8.0, or have I to notate the breakdown of it (Twisted Sonic Normal 23-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Shadow Normal 12-12[s 7.5][c])?Since we are still fairly free in using already-named-hybrid names, Devil's Sonic 8.0 would still work for describing Twisted Sonic [p][s 0.5] ~ Shadow [s 6.5][c].
....actually, I don't know if people usually state the spin of Twisted Sonic as only being the Pass portion, since the ~0.5 Charge rotation is already assumed to be there in the push portion of the hybrid. If you are unsure, go with the information notation of just "Twisted Sonic 1.0 ~".
The catch of the Shadow is assumed to be the usual 0.5 Charge rotation, so you could state the spin as only being 6.5, making it entire hybrid 8.0 rotations total. 0.5+0.5+6.5+0.5.
...hmmm, probably just better to say Twisted Sonic 1.0 ~ Shadow 7.0 and let people figure out the details themselves from watching the video.
You could go either way. -
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 07:58:59QUOTE (sketching @ Nov 23 2008, 01:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>A "Fundamental combo" would be a combo only using Fundamentals. Since the hybrid idea is not a Fundamental trick/idea, Twisted Sonic, Warped Sonic, ect... wouldn't work, IMO. Thumbspin adds the topspin element that is not a Fundamental, so...no. All the named Devil's/Demon's/etc... hybrids wouldn't work for me for the same reason that Twisted Sonic wouldn't work, they are hybrids, along with using non-Fundamental-trick parts. Same goes for Fingerless versions, they are more advanced tricks based off of the Fundamentals, but are not the actual Fundamentals.
Fundamental combos are boring.
So instead of saying "Sonic 34-23 --> Twisted Sonic 23-23" Can i rather "Sonic 34-23 --> Charge23-23 ~> Pass 23-12 >~ Charge12-12"?
-
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 20:10:13
@Outsmash:
Sonic Nor 34 > Charge Nor 23 ~> Pass Rev 23-12 >~ Charge Nor 12
or
Sonic Nor 34 > Charge 23 > {Pass Rev 23-12} .... using the nesting part of the Interrupted Trick Notation.
I still get confused with nesting notation, I don't use it anywhere near enough to remember all the symbols for it. >_<
"-->" is not official notation. -
Date: Mon, Nov 24 2008 11:26:22QUOTE (sketching @ Nov 24 2008, 01:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>@Outsmash:
Sonic Nor 34 > Charge Nor 23 ~> Pass Rev 23-12 >~ Charge Nor 12
or
Sonic Nor 34 > Charge 23 > {Pass Rev 23-12} .... using the nesting part of the Interrupted Trick Notation.
I still get confused with nesting notation, I don't use it anywhere near enough to remember all the symbols for it. >_<
"-->" is not official notation.
you got off the point.. Read it again and what is nesting notation?
-
Date: Tue, Nov 25 2008 05:14:14
@Outsmash: where did I get off point?
if you want to only state Fundamental tricks, you can use:
Sonic Nor 34 > Charge Nor 23 ~> Pass Rev 23-12 >~ Charge Nor 12
...another way of stating the same thing would be to use the nesting notation from the Interrupted Trick notation article. I linked to that section of the wiki article in my last post. The following is an abbreviated version of what the first breakdown using different notation, another way of breaking down Sonic 34 ~ Twisted Sonic 23:
Sonic Nor 34 > Charge 23 > {Pass Rev 23-12} -
Date: Sat, Nov 29 2008 15:35:07
Can a Figure 8 T1 be described as Wiper Rev T1 > Charge 0.5 T1 ~> Wiper Rev T1 > Charge 0.5 T1?
Is a Neobak Rev 12-T1 the same thing as a Fl Scissor Spin 12-T1? -
Date: Sat, Nov 29 2008 15:43:22QUOTE (Freeman @ Nov 29 2008, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can a Figure 8 T1 be described as Wiper Rev T1 > Charge 0.5 T1 ~> Wiper Rev T1 > Charge 0.5 T1?
Is a Neobak Rev 12-T1 the same thing as a Fl Scissor Spin 12-T1?
Figure 8 can be described as what you said but the "charge 0.5" is basically like a small hand movement but I guess that would be appropriate.
Neobak Rev 12-T1 is not the same as FL Scissor Spin 12-T1.
NeoBak Rev 12-T1 = Shadow 12-T1 -
Date: Sat, Nov 29 2008 19:19:51
Um hello NC.
I would like to ask why are "Devil" tricks term as "Devil"? Like, why is Shadow Normal 12-23 ~> FL MA Normal 23-12 ~> Charge Normal 12 = Devil's Shadow?
Is it because of the middle finger sticking out? For Demon tricks I know it's from the \m/ handsign.
Oh and, why are FL IAs termed as "busts"? -
Date: Sat, Nov 29 2008 19:52:14
You can find the answers in the wiki:
Devil's Around: Named for the straight position of the middle finger while all other fingers are bent, this offensive gesture was thought to be associated with the Devil.
Devil's Sonic: Named for the similar look of the hybrid to Devil's Around.
Demon's Sonic: Named for the similar look and hybrid nature of the Devil's Sonic.
The "Bust" naming is a bit more complicated: The first "Bust Trick" was Sonic Bust. It was a Sonic that was interrupted by an Indexaround. Because Sonic and Indexaround spin in different directions it looked like the Sonic was busted, hence the name Sonic Bust. Some spinners thought "Bust" just adds an Indexaround to the trick so Twisted Sonic > IA was called Twisted Sonic Bust. And for some unknown reason multiple Busts had to be fingerles so a Bust is now a fl IA or Bak rev.
All these names are unofficial so it doesn't really concern the naming commite =P -
Date: Sun, Nov 30 2008 13:04:28QUOTE (Outsmash @ Nov 29 2008, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Neobak Rev 12-T1 is not the same as FL Scissor Spin 12-T1.
NeoBak Rev 12-T1 = Shadow 12-T1
Are you sure of that? A Neobak is Fl, a Shadow not.
And another question for the NC:
I don't know in which direction the Levitator Normal and the Levitator Reverse spin. I have read the article in the wiki, but I haven't found any vid or tutorial of it where I can see it well, so it's a bit confusing.
Thank you very much. -
Date: Sun, Nov 30 2008 16:49:31QUOTE (Freeman @ Nov 30 2008, 06:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Are you sure of that? A Neobak is Fl, a Shadow not.
And another question for the NC:
I don't know in which direction the Levitator Normal and the Levitator Reverse spin. I have read the article in the wiki, but I haven't found any vid or tutorial of it where I can see it well, so it's a bit confusing.
Thank you very much.
Sorry... i mean: "FL Shadow 12-T1"
and anyways I dont know about the leigun.. But thinking of the "pinch" or just trying it will probably (I think) be counter-clockwise.
-
Date: Sun, Nov 30 2008 17:30:20
@Outsmash, I didn't say Leigun, I was referring to the Levitator.
Hmm and that you say it isn't correct at all, Leigun spins counter-clockwise for righties, but clockwise for lefties. -
Date: Mon, Dec 1 2008 06:21:05
Just something I've been thinking...
Figure 8s and Infinities are very similar tricks. The only thing different is one makes a slot change. Why give them both a different name? -
Date: Mon, Dec 1 2008 06:25:57
well because... they're different tricks oO?
-
Date: Mon, Dec 1 2008 06:44:21QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Nov 30 2008, 10:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well because... they're different tricks oO?
Hardly.
See eso's vid for reference:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1pLTaPhs8Zc
Figure 8 = Wiper Rev T1 > Wiper T1
Infinity = Wiper Rev T1-12 > Wiper 12-T1
I think that should be notated correctly. -
Date: Mon, Dec 1 2008 06:50:26
well i know what they both are
it's just that the figure 8 i find to be a useful name
because wiper harmonic (or its breakdown) doesn't imply the palm turned conic shape that figure 8s have -
Date: Mon, Dec 1 2008 07:51:48QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Nov 30 2008, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well i know what they both are
it's just that the figure 8 i find to be a useful name
because wiper harmonic (or its breakdown) doesn't imply the palm turned conic shape that figure 8s have
Isn't the infinity the same? Both create the 8 shape. -
Date: Mon, Dec 1 2008 11:32:17QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Dec 1 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Isn't the infinity the same? Both create the 8 shape.
They do create the same shape and is your point something like:
Figure 8 = Infinity T1??
IMO I dont think it should happen since i find figure 8's a bit more diferent and it can help beginners understand the motion of an infinity as well as it gives them the happiness of learning a new trick.
-
Date: Mon, Dec 1 2008 23:58:49
yes but infinities can accurately be discerned from their breakdowns
after the pass, it is clear that the wiper must have the opposite rotation
anyways... i just think that figure 8 is a useful name to have, in order to differentiate from an actual wiper harmonic -
Date: Tue, Dec 2 2008 03:07:02
Infinity includes a pass while Figure 8 does not, amirite?
Any I think we need more wiper-based tricks other than Infinities and Figure 8
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Date: Tue, Dec 2 2008 03:15:22
they're both combos...
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Date: Tue, Dec 2 2008 07:34:15QUOTE (Scandiacus @ Dec 1 2008, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Infinity includes a pass while Figure 8 does not, amirite?
Any I think we need more wiper-based tricks other than Infinities and Figure 8
There are plenty of infinity combos. Triple infinity, double, extended infinity, etc.
Plenty of cool wipers to do too. Wiper 13, Wiper 14, Rev wiper 13, Wiper T2, etc. -
Date: Thu, Dec 4 2008 13:25:46
Ah I see.....
Anyway, since Inverse Sonic 23-12 is Charge Normal 0.5 23 ~> Pass Normal 13-12 ~> Charge Normal 0.5 12, is it a hybrid or a individual trick? -
Date: Thu, Dec 4 2008 15:21:47QUOTE (Scandiacus @ Dec 4 2008, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Ah I see.....
Anyway, since Inverse Sonic 23-12 is Charge Normal 0.5 23 ~> Pass Normal 13-12 ~> Charge Normal 0.5 12, is it a hybrid or a individual trick?
If you put it that way, then almost all tricks would become hybrids.
It could be considered as a hybrid but refer to it as a trick since it will cause great confusion. -
Date: Thu, Dec 4 2008 21:04:24
Do Inverse Backtaps exist?
-
Date: Fri, Dec 5 2008 01:01:36
inverse sonic is not a hybrid, and there is no pass in it
.gif)
yes there are inverse baktaps -
Date: Fri, Dec 5 2008 04:08:30QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 4 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>inverse sonic is not a hybrid, and there is no pass in it
yes there are inverse baktaps
Technically, a sonic could be considered a hybrid consisting of charges. -
Date: Fri, Dec 5 2008 04:59:30
i proposed it before, it would require a fingerswitch to be considered its own individual trick
i dont think that's a good idea -
Date: Fri, Dec 5 2008 06:18:06
That's my point exactly.
Anyways wouldn't:
Inverse Baktap = Palmtap? -
Date: Fri, Dec 5 2008 06:38:06
are those the things leon did? he did them differently, they werent fingerless, he hit them with his fingers
the starting position was a 0.25 revolution from the baktap position -
Date: Fri, Dec 5 2008 09:42:33QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 5 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>are those the things leon did? he did them differently, they werent fingerless, he hit them with his fingers
the starting position was a 0.25 revolution from the baktap position
I'm not sure what le0n did but I think you bend you finger (like tap it) and the pen does half a rotation on the palm. It starts on top of the slot (hand faced up).
I said that just in case you didnt know what palm tap was. If otherwise, then I'm not sure what your talkin about. -
Date: Fri, Dec 5 2008 12:09:29
Hmm yes, Shadow is right, that's how Palmtap is (how Le0n performed it).
Here's a vid of it: -
Date: Sat, Dec 6 2008 01:50:14QUOTE (Outsmash @ Dec 4 2008, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That's my point exactly.
Anyways wouldn't:
Inverse Baktap = Palmtap?
Baktap has the pen spinning on the back (outside) of the fingers, not the hand. Inverse Baktap spins on the inside of the fingers with the hand palm-up.
Freeman's video only shows Palmtap, not Inverse Baktap, the pen is spinning just below the fingers. -
Date: Sat, Dec 6 2008 11:46:29QUOTEI don't know in which direction the Levitator Normal and the Levitator Reverse spin. I have read the article in the wiki, but I haven't found any vid or tutorial of it where I can see it well, so it's a bit confusing.
Can somebody help me with that please? -
Date: Sat, Dec 6 2008 12:39:25
Levitator Normal: counter-clockwise (right hand), same direction as Halftap Normal
Levitator Reverse: clockwise (right hand), same direction as Halftap Reverse -
Date: Sat, Dec 6 2008 13:10:29
Can someone give me a clear explanation on:
1) Handaround
2) Wrist Around
3) Palm Around. -
Date: Sat, Dec 6 2008 21:26:59QUOTE (Outsmash @ Dec 6 2008, 05:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can someone give me a clear explanation on:
1) Handaround
2) Wrist Around
3) Palm Around.
Handaround is the trick spinnerpeem does. The TA ~ Handaround.
Wristaround was done by bonkura. It's a Pinkybak ~ FL TA Rev, but he moves his hand forward during the rotation so the pen moves somewhat along the back of the hand.
No idea what a palmaround is. -
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 02:27:05QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Dec 7 2008, 03:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Handaround is the trick spinnerpeem does. The TA ~ Handaround.
Wristaround was done by bonkura. It's a Pinkybak ~ FL TA Rev, but he moves his hand forward during the rotation so the pen moves somewhat along the back of the hand.
No idea what a palmaround is.
I was thinking a wristaround was the trick the guy against patte (in a battle a while ago) did. A palmaround should be what Cienkis tutorial mentioned but instead of going back it should come all the way.
That would be palmaround reverse. -
Date: Sun, Dec 7 2008 22:53:13
Handaround: goes around the entire hand. Probably should just be a Backaround variation: Backaround T1-T1 can be considered a Handaround since the pen travels around the entire hand.
Wristaround: the pen mainly goes around the wrist.
Palmaround: I'm pretty sure that it was a name that was thrown around when people were trying to figure out if Inverse Backaround could be done. -
Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 07:27:12
Quick question about Drummer.
Do we use drummer in UPSB/english notation or is it only used in JEB/japanese notation? -
Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 07:36:06QUOTE (dust_kid @ Dec 9 2008, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Quick question about Drummer.
Do we use drummer in UPSB/english notation or is it only used in JEB/japanese notation?
It's only used in japanese breakdowns. I've never seen one in a breakdown from a UPSB member anyway. -
Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 07:40:11
That's just because not many people know the mini-combo so people are unable to use it.
-
Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 07:58:02
that's because there's no reason to use it when you could easily break it down to avoid confusion and inaccuracy
-
Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 10:45:09
why is a symmetrical bakaround called a symmetrical bakaround?
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Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 18:01:26QUOTE (Look Into the Sun @ Dec 6 2008, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Wristaround was done by bonkura. It's a Pinkybak ~ FL TA Rev, but he moves his hand forward during the rotation so the pen moves somewhat along the back of the hand.
Hmm I'm pretty confused now. The wristaround tutorial by Cienki showed him doing a FL TA Rev then he catches the pen with 4 fingers and flicks it around his wrist.
So is Bonkura or Cienki correct? -
Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 18:14:08QUOTE (Glamouraz @ Dec 9 2008, 02:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>why is a symmetrical bakaround called a symmetrical bakaround?
Because key3 (the creator) named it that way. That's the only reason why.
Broken down I believe it's something like: Devil's Shadow 34-TF > Fl TA. I know he does a charge initially, so it should be a devil's shadow 34 rather than a rev pinkybak. -
Date: Tue, Dec 9 2008 23:51:41
tell that to frip
-
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 00:42:20QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 9 2008, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>tell that to frip
Thanks but no need. My name is capitalized and ends with a â„¢. So next time you'll get it right.
Devil's Shadow 34-34 = Pinkyaround.
But why?
As you should know, regular Fingerarounds are pushed. However, fingerless versions exist. A Pinkybak is a fingerless Pinkaround reverse. Therefore a Pinkybak rev. is a fingerless Pinkyaround. So Pinkybak Rev IS NOT a regular Pinkyaround.
Let's say you try to push a Pinkyaround just like a Indexaround. Won't work. Simply because you're missing a finger. In order to do a Pinkyaround you have to somehow push it. That's when you do the Charge-like motion. Pinkyaround does the same movement as a Devil's Shadow 34-34. It's is just named Pinkyaround because; a) That trick comes closest to the other arounds. It travels AROUND the pinky. Since there is no other way to do it, this is Pinkyaround.
People just got used to calling it a Pinkyaround. I'm not saying it is not misnamed, it rather IS misnamed, just like Twisted Sonic (There's no sonic in there). Instead of saying Devil's Around 34-34 people started calling it Pinkyaround.
The Pinkyaround HAS to be different then all the other regular Arounds since you have no 6th finger! Theoretically there is no Pinkyaround, but over time people started calling Devil's Around 34-34 Pinkyaround, because it has a push and it goes around the pinky.
Robert in GPC said: To learn the Pinkyaround just start out with the Charge just like the one in the Devil's Shadow in 34. You'll see after a few tries that the pen goes around the Pinky.
-
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:16:45
uh... im not gonna go pull up a tm sign every time i type your name >>
well, i disagree
a true pinkyaround is not impossible, just incredibly hard
therefore i don't think we should give its name away to the devil's shadow 34-34
especially because it isnt fingerless- how can it be fingerless when you're clearly doing a full charge motion before it?
and since when does a pinkyaround have 2.0 revolutions? -
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:19:45QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 9 2008, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>uh... im not gonna go pull up a tm sign every time i type your name >>
well, i disagree
a true pinkyaround is not impossible, just incredibly hard
Because it is so incredibly hard to be born with 6 fingers?
QUOTEtherefore i don't think we should give its name away to the devil's shadow 34-34
especially because it isnt fingerless- how can it be fingerless when you're clearly doing a full motion before it?
It is NOT supposed to be fingerless ^^QUOTEand since when does a pinkyaround have 2.0 revolutions?
It has 1 o_O" -
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:22:17
You're thinking about it too hard, turn your hand, then try it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:22:18
You don't have to have 6 fingers. It's possible.
And if you do a devil's shadow 34-34, which you are insisting is a pinkyaround, you end up with 2.0 revolutions. -
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:27:51QUOTE (WIKI)Pinkyaround differs from the other Fingerarounds due to the lack of a pushing finger below. The pen only starts above the pink finger. A twist of the hand may be done to place the ring finger underneath the pinky finger. Hand movements may be necessary to keep the pen spinning around the pinky.
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:44:34
How about you stop talking and find a video of it?
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:47:53
Why do we need to find a video? You're the one who isn't supporting anything you say with actual evidence. We don't even know if this trick has ever been done before, but the point is it's possible, and therefore we can't just go reassigning its name.
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 01:59:00QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 9 2008, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Why do we need to find a video? You're the one who isn't supporting anything you say with actual evidence. We don't even know if this trick has ever been done before, but the point is it's possible, and therefore we can't just go reassigning its name.
Umm how is it supposed to be possible if nobody has ever done it? You don't know if it is possible until somebody does it.
btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6nNSzimhQY...feature=related
And why do I even care about this? -
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 02:02:21
Because you're the one arguing our definition of a pinkyaround.
And...?
He did it correctly, and fingerlessly -
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 02:04:09QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 9 2008, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Because you're the one arguing our definition of a pinkyaround.
And...?
He did it correctly, and fingerlessly
Who? And I am NOT talking about the FINGERLESS Pinkyaround.
I am talking about the REGULAR Pinkyaround that hjas a PUSH.
@sangara
You just throw the pen up and catch it ...
@Shadow ups wrong link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzmWqhWwiX0 -
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 02:06:41
I know... so why did you just post that? That was fingerless.
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 02:08:11
Your lord and savior has come
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 04:05:20
Cant see what you're doing sangara. And I was too lazy to read what frip wrote, but pinkyarounds are possible. I'll post a vid tomorrow if I can. It's simply done differently from any other around trick, gotta think outside the box to figure it out.
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 05:48:47
it'll take me like a week to get it but i can do it
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Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 15:18:17
I've seen a Pinkyaround here in UPSB a few months ago, but I don't find it anywere...
Another thing:
I've seen many times things like:
Pass Normal 34-23-12-23-34 or Sonic 34-23-12, that seems incorrect to me, isn't it? -
Date: Wed, Dec 10 2008 23:47:18
im pretty sure it's incorrect
it's just people being lazy -
Date: Thu, Dec 11 2008 02:51:54
Disproving the impossible once again.
Pinkyaround: -
Date: Thu, Dec 11 2008 03:21:35
...but that looks veeeeery fingerless
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Date: Thu, Dec 11 2008 03:23:49QUOTE (FripメECツ @ Dec 10 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...but that looks veeeeery fingerless
That's because I don't practice it much. :]
Try it yourself, you'll notice that it is possible.
Here's another vid, if you still don't believe me.
The handmotion is done because you have to spread all your fingers so none get in the way. It utilizes a very strong and quick flick for the push from the ring finger. Which hurts the fingers. That's why I don't like practicing it. -
Date: Thu, Dec 11 2008 04:15:41
yup, that's it
im working on mines palm down though, idk why it feels better to me -
Date: Thu, Dec 11 2008 04:44:59QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Dec 10 2008, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>yup, that's it
im working on mines palm down though, idk why it feels better to me
It's easier palm-down because you don't have to fight gravity. PA requires a lot of force. I don't think I've done any trick that requires as much force as a PA. -
Date: Sun, Dec 14 2008 03:00:46
What I'm saying: "IPBA Rev 1.0 is not possible"
Am I correct? Cuz i checked a lot of times. If you want me to make a video and explain, I can get it by like tomorrow. -
Date: Sat, Dec 20 2008 17:36:15
A few questions:
1- Are Fake Double and Fake Triple used, or are arcaic names for that combos?
2- Do Tipped Sonic Normal and Reverse exist, or only exist Tipped Sonic T1-T2, Tipped Sonic T2-T1...? Because these tricks have not circular motion, but the path is the opposite (for Normal and Reverse).
3- Is the Twisted Ringaround (or maybe Twisted RingMiddlearound, since it travels around these two fingers) invented by Bajamba a different trick than regular Fingerarounds? (since it involves fingercrossing to do the trick).
Here I have a vid of it: -
Date: Sat, Dec 20 2008 17:51:26
1) Fake Double is used but Fake Triple is quite outdated.
2) Yes Tipped Sonic (Nor + Rev) does exist. It's like a sonic without the charge like motion. Just bend your finger and bring it up. Inverse Tipped Sonic (+Rev) exists too.
3) It wouldn't be anything new if finge crossing notations for it existed. -
Date: Sat, Dec 20 2008 18:01:09
Oh thanks.
Yes, I knew they existed . But my question was the naming method. So Normal and Reverse continues used. I get confused since the Moonwalk Sonic deprecation in Tipped Sonic, I read Normal and Reverse didn't exist more, only Tipped Sonic.
And for the Twisted Ringaround, fingercrossing notations don't exist because anyone has worked on that for now (AFAIK). The impulse is different, I would like to read more opinions on that. -
Date: Sun, Dec 21 2008 00:07:46QUOTE (Outsmash @ Dec 13 2008, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What I'm saying: "IPBA Rev 1.0 is not possible"
Am I correct? Cuz i checked a lot of times. If you want me to make a video and explain, I can get it by like tomorrow.
Yes, 1.5 is the lowest
Freeman, i have had numerous debates as to the notations for tipped sonics...
i think they're the same thing, but idk, that arguement kind of died -
Date: Sun, Dec 21 2008 00:29:55
Hmm ok.
And what about the "Twisted Ringaround"? -
Date: Tue, Dec 23 2008 01:25:49QUOTE (Freeman @ Dec 20 2008, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>3- Is the Twisted Ringaround (or maybe Twisted RingMiddlearound, since it travels around these two fingers) invented by Bajamba a different trick than regular Fingerarounds? (since it involves fingercrossing to do the trick).
If there is ever a notation for specifying crossed fingers, than Bajamba's trick would be a different variation, like Fingerless Fingerarounds are. Different push variation.
Twisted Ringaround doesn't work with the current use of "Twisted" in pen spinning terms though. -
Date: Tue, Dec 23 2008 01:28:20
i wasnt aware there was a standard usage of twisted oO
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Date: Fri, Dec 26 2008 14:37:13
Thank you all very much.
How can I notate the "Le0gun"?
0:30 -
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2008 18:50:08
Will there ever be an official notation for Bonkuras Wristaround (so that we can clearly differ it from Pyralux "Wristaround Normal").
Currently there is a big discussion in the GPC and no one is really sure which trick is which...
Thanks in advance. -
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2008 18:55:35
the fact is, it's just another hybrid, just like this one
it's not even a wristaround
it's basically a palmed turned, half around, half around rev sort of hybrid
ill try to figure out a breakdown later i guess, but generally with tricks like those, a breakdown isn't going to help anyone really intent on learning it -
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2008 19:00:11
This is not a direct answer to my Question. Even though its a hybrid, you can't really break it down, because there is no official notation for Hand movement.
So now what?
a) Think about a notation for Hand movement
B) Make the Wristaround/Wristaround Normal a 'real' Trick (which is in my opinion not a good choice, because your hybrid would still be unnamend)
/EDIT: btw, its not only not a wristaround, its not even a real around... -
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2008 19:12:28
i realize it isnt an around, i said that...
and are you suggesting we come up with a notation for palm turns?
because then i agree -
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2008 19:29:25QUOTEit's basically a palmed turned, half around, half around rev sort of hybrid
Let's take Cienki's "Wristaround" http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=zjqZRSBzq9Q
It's just a Fl Pinkyaround rev 0.5 ~ Pinkyaround 0.5 I just have problems notating the Fingerslots. Of course this breakdown doesn't include the movement of the hand that is needed to do this smoothly but the position of the hand/fingers in relation to the pen during the trick/hybrid is not important in the current namingsystem (e.g. korean bak and fl Indexaround are the same). Another example is the anti gravity. It's a fl Ia rev that spins ccw (righthanded) but normal fl Ias palm down spin ccw too.
Edit: Here is a video to explain the idea of the around ~ rev around concept. This is the concept that is also used for stuff like "twisted backaround". I know there are variations where the pen actually touches the wrist but most of the time it's the concept that I try to explain.
-
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2008 22:12:43
very well said pudels, and exactly what i was trying to convey 
palm turn notation is still needed imo -
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 16:27:17
Are T1, T2, T3, T4 called Thumb Charges?
And, how is the part in the shadow l=notated when the pen moves from the palm side to the back side? -
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 20:39:04
I have seen always Charge T1, Charge T2, etc. ; but idk.
I don't understand your Shadow question, but I have one:
Can a Shadow 23-12 be breakdowned as Charge 0.5 23 ~ Backspin 0.5 ~ Charge 0.5 12? -
Date: Fri, Jan 2 2009 21:41:50
shadow is a trick right? not a hybrid? the idea is that "backspin 0.5" really isn't a trick at all. there's no starting or ending position for a 'backspin', no execution guide or layout. it's just something people might make up in trying to describe a shadow
so, i guess if you want to help someone describe a shadow, that would work, but i dont think it's technically correct... -
Date: Sat, Jan 3 2009 06:02:31
I would prefer: FL Baktap 23-12 (push, spins and catch are normal)
And is a neobak fall :
Neobak 12-23 > Neobak 23-34? or
Neobak 12-12 > (FL)Pass 12-23 > Neobak 23-23 > (FL)Pass 23-34 > Neobak 34-34?
And about my shadow question: I was talking about:
Suppose the pen is in the slot 12, after it does the 0.5 charge motion it lands on the top/back of the hand on TOP of 12 not in between them.
If I were to do this without the charge like motion, more like a tipped variation of it, what would it be called? What would the trick be called when the pen moves from between a slot to the top of a slot? Even if it was a charge-like motion, it wouldn't matter.. -
Date: Sat, Jan 3 2009 20:33:00
a shdadow is not FL, so it could'nt be an FL baktap...
Neobak fall is neobak 12-123 => neobak 123-234 => neoback 234-34 -
Date: Sun, Jan 4 2009 07:19:33QUOTE (lindor @ Jan 4 2009, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>a shdadow is not FL, so it could'nt be an FL baktap...
Neobak fall is neobak 12-123 => neobak 123-234 => neoback 234-34
I said "FL Baktap" not FL Shadow so:
Shadow: Charge 12-12 [s 0.5] ~> FL Baktap 12-12 [s 0.5] >~ Charge 12-12 [s 0.5]
That is how I would describe Shadow. Push and catch is normal. -
Date: Sun, Jan 4 2009 07:32:07
a baktap is FL
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Date: Sun, Jan 4 2009 07:36:20QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jan 4 2009, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>a baktap is FL
(at myself)..
Well, then the the FL can be skipped.. just that, the push seemed a little different to me.. w/e -
Date: Mon, Jan 5 2009 12:12:59
I would like to know the difference between Bak 1.5 (Index/Middle/etc.) and Neobak (Index/Middle/etc.). They looks kinda the same and have the same spinning/travel path...?
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Date: Mon, Jan 5 2009 12:24:47QUOTE (Scandiacus @ Jan 5 2009, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would like to know the difference between Bak 1.5 (Index/Middle/etc.) and Neobak (Index/Middle/etc.). They looks kinda the same and have the same spinning/travel path...?
- Bak 1.5 is like a bak but has an extra spin on the top. It spins "around" the finger. And in this case, onr finger.
- Neobak does not spin around a finger. It's caught between the fingers. Basically a FingerLess Shadow Reverse. And Neobak cannot be done around one finger only. It will involve two fingers, for the push and the catch.
Bak = around type (FL + Rev)
Bak 1.5 = around type + 0.5 spin
Neobak = Shadow type (FL + Rev) -
Date: Mon, Jan 5 2009 17:09:34
Ah I see. Thanks for clearing me up
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Date: Wed, Jan 14 2009 07:47:10
I got an idea to notate fingercrossing. Twisted RA, etc. It's not so good though.
If you're holding the pen between the middle and ring, we genrally notate it as 23.
Suppose we're notating it in the downward order.. eg: If your fingers are strectched out straight I=1, M=2, R=3, P=4, T=T. But it in the case of finger crossing, two of youre fingers change positions.
In the case of twisted RA, R and M switch places. Now if you apply the downward notating rule, it would be called 32.. not 23. It's not much of a difference though.
The problem is that some beginners/noobs use 32 instead of 23. I dont think that can be stopped so we can also add something more like 32 --> 32FC/32F/32C. Where, F=finger, C=cross.
So Twisted RA would be notated as: RA 32C-34 or something like that. -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 01:24:30
that wont work, people already mix them up all the time
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Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 02:34:12
can't we just notate it with a different push like Middlearound 23-23 [p 2] or whatever?
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Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 04:38:34QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jan 15 2009, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>that wont work, people already mix them up all the time
Yea I know. We could still get in that "C" after the slot. "32C". c=cross. -
Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 22:57:35
What about something like RA 23-23 [f 23] - indicating that the fingercross is with the middle and ring fingers?
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Date: Fri, Jan 16 2009 02:15:56QUOTE (Freeman @ Jan 16 2009, 04:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What about something like RA 23-23 [f 23] - indicating that the fingercross is with the middle and ring fingers?
or [f 32]... or RA 32-34 [fc]. -
Date: Fri, Jan 16 2009 03:42:56
Then could it be named crossed middlearound or something? or is the term crossed already in use?
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Date: Fri, Jan 16 2009 04:33:54QUOTE (Fall @ Jan 16 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Then could it be named crossed middlearound or something? or is the term crossed already in use?
That wouldn't be so useful cuz we're talking abuot Fingercrossing which can be done in many ways other than only for arounds. -
Date: Fri, Jan 16 2009 10:15:17
I think the 21, 32, 43 notation proposed by Outsmash very interesting; if noob spinners confuse 23 with 32 is their problem IMO
But with this notation, if you wanted to describe a Charge done with 24 and with 3 and 4 crossed (all at the same time), for example, then I don't know how to notate it. -
Date: Fri, Jan 16 2009 15:22:49QUOTE (Freeman @ Jan 16 2009, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think the 21, 32, 43 notation proposed by Outsmash very interesting; if noob spinners confuse 23 with 32 is their problem IMO
But with this notation, if you wanted to describe a Charge done with 24 and with 3 and 4 crossed (all at the same time), for example, then I don't know how to notate it.
Yea.. I guess people would have to get used to it just like how the Interrupted Trick Notation became quite familiar.
Formal Notation: 32 [F] or 32 [C] or 32 [FC] or 23 [F/C/FC] or 23 [C 32] or whatever..
Informal Notation: 32C or 32c or 32.
Something like that would be fine. -
Date: Fri, Jan 16 2009 23:30:41QUOTE (Freeman @ Jan 16 2009, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think the 21, 32, 43 notation proposed by Outsmash very interesting; if noob spinners confuse 23 with 32 is their problem IMO
But with this notation, if you wanted to describe a Charge done with 24 and with 3 and 4 crossed (all at the same time), for example, then I don't know how to notate it.
Or we could just flame all the people who do that... (*ahem* me)
-
Date: Mon, Jan 19 2009 06:41:40
There's something that's been bothering me for a while:
How do you notate an iSonic in a breakdown?
Because I was thinking, wouldn't it get confusing because there are three types of iSonic's?
1) Original iSonic(by Kam) with three fingers
2) Eriror's variation with two fingers.
3) Bonkura's variation with spread fingers.
Thanks! -
Date: Mon, Jan 19 2009 10:29:56
They are just variations but the same concept. And it's more of a trick and does not need any breakdowns.
I'll try though:
Sonic 23-13 > stall/hold it for a while 13 >~ Sonic 23-12.. Some thing like that but it's nothing great.. Only a sonic with like a puase (hide) in the middle. -
Date: Tue, Jan 20 2009 01:25:30
Hmm... is there a notation for Assisted spinning? I have an idea if there isn't...
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Date: Tue, Jan 20 2009 02:15:49
No.
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Date: Tue, Jan 20 2009 04:36:08
I was thinking like Assisted Double Infinity [A Pass 12-23 > pass 23-34 > pass 34-23 > TS 23-12 > Pass Rev. 12-23].
Where the stuff inside the brackets is what the other hand is doing to assist it... -
Date: Tue, Jan 20 2009 05:19:21QUOTE (Fall @ Jan 20 2009, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I was thinking like Assisted Double Infinity [A Pass 12-23 > pass 23-34 > pass 34-23 > TS 23-12 > Pass Rev. 12-23].
Where the stuff inside the brackets is what the other hand is doing to assist it...
I was gonna post something like this a month before but it needed work and Assisted Spinning Concept has not been done by anyone so far ecept maybe a few so it' not really requied atm. -
Date: Wed, Jan 21 2009 02:35:43
Kind of a weird question, but:
1) How do you write the breakdown for a Figure 8 Reverse?(Haven't been able to figure it out.)
2) How do you do the finger slot notation for PinkyBak? Is it also 34? -
Date: Wed, Jan 21 2009 03:11:37
1) wiper harmonic
2) yes -
Date: Wed, Jan 21 2009 09:23:40QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jan 21 2009, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>1) wiper harmonic
2) yes
Isn't a Wiper Harmonic Wiper > Wiper Rev.. Figure 8 = Wiper > Wiper (w/ hand motion (.5 charge)) right??
-
Date: Wed, Jan 21 2009 22:04:59
a palm turned "charge" isn't really a charge...
the pen doesnt move in relation to the hand
the palm turn creates the illusion of a charge -
Date: Thu, Jan 22 2009 04:56:55
I get it now... It is a wiper harmonic.. sorry.
btw what's the difference between the hai tua trick and the handaround? -
Date: Thu, Jan 22 2009 05:03:11
hai tua is a hybrid...?
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Date: Thu, Jan 22 2009 05:57:13QUOTE (Outsmash @ Jan 21 2009, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I get it now... It is a wiper harmonic.. sorry.
btw what's the difference between the hai tua trick and the handaround?
a hai tai said in the video by spinnerpeem breaks it down as
ext. ta to 34-> fingerless ta
and idk what a handaround even looks like it could be like a bak 34 and catching it in your thumbflap idk
-
Date: Thu, Jan 22 2009 09:04:41QUOTE (tomohiro @ Jan 22 2009, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>a hai tai said in the video by spinnerpeem breaks it down as
ext. ta to 34-> fingerless ta
and idk what a handaround even looks like it could be like a bak 34 and catching it in your thumbflap idk
Exactly.. That's why i requested a video of a HandAround. The way Juggurt did it was different. It wemt around the entire palm. But some others say PTBA is a handaround. -
Date: Mon, Feb 2 2009 20:41:37
I've seen many times a Devil's Sonic Reverse 12-23 as Neobak 12-12 (or Shadow Rev 12-12 other times) ~ Twisted Sonic Rev 12-23.
But I think if the Devil's Sonic Normal 23-12 is Twisted Sonic 23-12 ~ Shadow 12-12, a Devil's Sonic Reverse has to be Twisted Sonic Rev 12-23 ~ Shadow Rev 23-23.
Am I right? -
Date: Tue, Feb 3 2009 01:48:49
uh... yeah...
whoever said neobak is just wrong -
Date: Wed, Feb 4 2009 15:04:15
difference between reverse neosonic and rev pass t1 12?
-
Date: Thu, Feb 5 2009 02:02:39
Um... what defines Isolation? I know how to use it and everything, but I can't figure out what it means exactly...
-
Date: Thu, Feb 5 2009 07:30:09QUOTE (Fall @ Feb 4 2009, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Um... what defines Isolation? I know how to use it and everything, but I can't figure out what it means exactly...
i think it means that one point of the pen stays fixed in a position -
Date: Thu, Feb 5 2009 11:11:08QUOTE (Fall @ Feb 5 2009, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Um... what defines Isolation? I know how to use it and everything, but I can't figure out what it means exactly...
I've heard some people say that in General PS, your pen spins around your hand and with Isolation, your hand revolves around the pen. -
Date: Fri, Feb 6 2009 16:22:09QUOTE (Outsmash @ Feb 5 2009, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I've heard some people say that in General PS, your pen spins around your hand and with Isolation, your hand revolves around the pen.
how do you do that? i mean, the pen follows the hand, no? -
Date: Fri, Feb 6 2009 17:09:42QUOTE (Sian_ing @ Feb 6 2009, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>how do you do that? i mean, the pen follows the hand, no?
look at Rafe's video in WT09 R1
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sVLbUo55hY8 -
Date: Wed, Feb 11 2009 11:49:01
What it a Charge with Palm Down / Palm Normal switch called?
Explanation:
You do a Charge normal in let's say 12 (Palm Normal). And in the charge motion, you switch to Palm Down. And then to Palm Normal again and so on. This won't cause an interruption and it can be done smooth and continous. BUT: The Palm Normal part is a Charge Normal 12 and the Palm down part is a Charge Rev 12.
What's the name for this? Counter Charge (Cont)? Twisted Charge (Cont)? Or Charge 12 ~ Charge Rev 12 (Cont)?
I hope you understood me, got no vid.
EDIT: Some more questions:
- Is there an official Mirrored modifier? If yes, what does it mean?
- There was a Neobak / Bak 1.5 discussion last page. My opinion: A Neobak can also travel up the hand, right? -> Neobak 23-12 = Midbak 1.5 23-12! -
Date: Thu, Feb 12 2009 09:30:14QUOTE (HeadBan(ger) @ Feb 11 2009, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What it a Charge with Palm Down / Palm Normal switch called?
Explanation:
You do a Charge normal in let's say 12 (Palm Normal). And in the charge motion, you switch to Palm Down. And then to Palm Normal again and so on. This won't cause an interruption and it can be done smooth and continous. BUT: The Palm Normal part is a Charge Normal 12 and the Palm down part is a Charge Rev 12.
What's the name for this? Counter Charge (Cont)? Twisted Charge (Cont)? Or Charge 12 ~ Charge Rev 12 (Cont)?
I hope you understood me, got no vid.
A charge always follows a Clockwise direction on the palm side and and anti-clockwise direction on the backhand side.
When you do a charge Palm Normal/Side/Up or whatever, you look at the palm side of the hand.. When you bring it palm down, you can only see the back side of the hand. Therefore, both are the same. The thing that matters is which part you look at.QUOTE (HeadBan(ger) @ Feb 11 2009, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>- Is there an official Mirrored modifier? If yes, what does it mean?
I dont know what "Mirror Modifier" you're talking aboutQUOTE (HeadBan(ger) @ Feb 11 2009, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>- There was a Neobak / Bak 1.5 discussion last page. My opinion: A Neobak can also travel up the hand, right? -> Neobak 23-12 = Midbak 1.5 23-12!
When a Bak 1.5 is performed from one slot to another, it automatically becomes a neobak. There is no such thing as midbak 1.5 23-12.. Like you said -> That's a neobak 23-12. -
Date: Thu, Feb 12 2009 13:01:07
Thx for the fast answers.
I found a vid for the "Couter Charge" on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OwQmfDLHo
As you see, it's not interrupted and quite often used to link Palm Normal / Down tricks. BUT: Try it yourself, it's a mixture between a Charge Normal and a Charge Rev (as a consequence of the different point of view). -> It's no Charge and no Charge Rev!
Is Counter Charge the correct name for this?
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Concerning the Mirrored modifier:
I've heard sth of a "Mirrored Demon's Sonic". But who cares, Demon's and Angel's are senceless and confusing imo. -
Date: Thu, Feb 12 2009 13:44:27
maybe im missing something but theres no direction change in this "counter charge"
if there's no direction change, it cannot be counter -
Date: Thu, Feb 12 2009 14:43:27QUOTEThx for the fast answers.
I found a vid for the "Couter Charge" on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OwQmfDLHo
As you see, it's not interrupted and quite often used to link Palm Normal / Down tricks. BUT: Try it yourself, it's a mixture between a Charge Normal and a Charge Rev (as a consequence of the different point of view). -> It's no Charge and no Charge Rev!
Is Counter Charge the correct name for this?
Counter Charge = Charge ~ Rev Charge
That video had only Charge going palm Side to Palm Down. Read what I posted. It's just an aspect of looking at it.
So Basically, that video is wrong.
And there is no Mirror Modifier or w/e. Don't get confused..
EDIT: and as Zombo basically said:
A counter trick = TRICK ~ (FL) REV TRICK
where,
TRICK = any trick
(FL) = applicable to some tricks -
Date: Fri, Feb 13 2009 00:02:00QUOTE (HeadBan(ger) @ Feb 12 2009, 05:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thx for the fast answers.
I found a vid for the "Couter Charge" on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2OwQmfDLHo
As you see, it's not interrupted and quite often used to link Palm Normal / Down tricks. BUT: Try it yourself, it's a mixture between a Charge Normal and a Charge Rev (as a consequence of the different point of view). -> It's no Charge and no Charge Rev!
Is Counter Charge the correct name for this?
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Concerning the Mirrored modifier:
I've heard sth of a "Mirrored Demon's Sonic". But who cares, Demon's and Angel's are senceless and confusing imo.
I think he's talking about how Angel's Sonic is almost a mirror of Demon's Sonic. -
Date: Fri, Feb 13 2009 04:08:36
Hmmm... that makes me wonder if some one dug up Xero's old thread on his pitch about the "Mirrored" modifier thing. We were talking about a "Mirrored Demon's Sonic" and "Mirrored Twisted Sonic"
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Date: Fri, Feb 13 2009 04:46:06
link pl0x... or are you talking about inverse?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 01:16:20
http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showt...amp;hl=Mirrored
Ugh that brings back memories
I miss those days. -
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 03:09:10
So is the term mirrored still used? For like sfsr's example of mirrored double charge?
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Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 03:21:53
No it never was and never will, well probably wont ever.
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Date: Sun, Feb 15 2009 21:43:23
Is there such thing as an index stall or a Thumb Up trick?
The hand is doing the Thumbs Up sign will the pen is resting on the index finger
if ever there's none
please note d concept is mine.... -
Date: Tue, Feb 17 2009 00:19:40
about the stall... i think its just a stall... there really isn't notation for hand gestures...
You don't write:
-TA T1-T1 > Bunny ears/peace sign/whatever you call it
-Twisted Sonic Bust > bak rev > pen ninja's crazy 40 second hand gesture thingy...
I might be wrong... don't quote me on this. -
Date: Tue, Feb 17 2009 07:27:13QUOTE (chrisPS @ Feb 15 2009, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Is there such thing as an index stall or a Thumb Up trick?
The hand is doing the Thumbs Up sign will the pen is resting on the index finger
if ever there's none
please note d concept is mine....QUOTE (Fall @ Feb 16 2009, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>about the stall... i think its just a stall... there really isn't notation for hand gestures...
You don't write:
-TA T1-T1 > Bunny ears/peace sign/whatever you call it
-Twisted Sonic Bust > bak rev > pen ninja's crazy 40 second hand gesture thingy...
I might be wrong... don't quote me on this.
Usually, in breakdowns, I see: "Stall on Middle Finger" or "Stall on Pinky" but there are names for some of the other stalls, like Cobra Stall, or F*** You, and such. -
Date: Tue, Feb 17 2009 11:44:44QUOTE (chrisPS @ Feb 16 2009, 04:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Is there such thing as an index stall or a Thumb Up trick?
The hand is doing the Thumbs Up sign will the pen is resting on the index finger
if ever there's none
please note d concept is mine....
Index Stall = Stall on 1 (like FI said).
When a trick is being done, only the fingers that are involved matter. The other fingers do not matter at all (whether they're showing the "Thumb Up" sign or not).
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Date: Thu, Mar 19 2009 22:50:37
Is an indexaround T1-T1 possible?
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Date: Thu, Mar 19 2009 22:58:42
Yes.
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Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 02:54:23
And my other question I forgot to ask: is notation supposed to be a perfect way to express a combo or is it just an augment to the video itself?
i.e.
Is it supposed to be perfect, or is it just a way to give a basic idea of what the spinner is doing? -
Date: Fri, Mar 20 2009 03:21:30QUOTE (hoiboy @ Mar 19 2009, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And my other question I forgot to ask: is notation supposed to be a perfect way to express a combo or is it just an augment to the video itself?
i.e.
Is it supposed to be perfect, or is it just a way to give a basic idea of what the spinner is doing?
perfect notation is a goal, but its impossible. in fact, we are far from describing a video completely using text. you can even argue it's not even supposed to be a goal, only a guide. this is because it makes more interesting as it allows interpretation from the spinner.
same thing in music. someone said "what you see on the music sheet only represents 5% of what music is". -
Date: Tue, Mar 24 2009 06:08:29
Is there a finger notation system for positions other than just between two fingers, such as the starting position for the midbak? (on top of 1 and 3, but below 2)
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Date: Tue, Mar 24 2009 06:31:24
the starting position for a midbak is 23 or 12
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Date: Tue, Mar 24 2009 19:57:45QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Mar 23 2009, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the starting position for a midbak is 23 or 12
I think he means a midbak 12-123. That's how a lot of people end it when they finish with cont midaks. -
Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 02:54:34
okay, well you dont need a system, it's 123
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Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 02:59:38
123 could represent a lot of things... (in front of 1/3 and behind 2, like my example; in front of 2 and behind 1/3; behind 2/3 and in front of 1; stalled on top of all three fingers; etc.)
Here's a better example: Triangle pass. You could call the starting position T12. But if you do one pass, it's in a different position, but still between T, 1, and 2. -
Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 03:29:25
if you do part of a triangle pass, you are not holding it in T12, you're holding it in 12 and touching it with your thumb
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Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 03:43:58
That's not my point... My point is that you can hold the pen with the same fingers but in different positions:
123 could mean:
In front of 2 and behind 1 and 3
Behind 2 and in front of 1 and 3
Stalled on top of all three fingers
When you have four fingers, it's even more confusing:
1234 could mean: (though I don't think there's much use for a position using four fingers in penspinning, much less all five)
In front of 1 and 3 and behind 2 and 4
Behind 1 and 3 and in front of 2 and 4
In front of 3 and behind the others
Behind 3 and in front of the others
In front of 2 and behind the others
Behind 2 and in front of the others -
Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 03:47:51
we've no way of differentiating that, as it can be derived by its preceding trick
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Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 04:59:43QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Mar 24 2009, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>we've no way of differentiating that, as it can be derived by its preceding trick
and much too complicated. there is no notation for finger movements and such (yet?). -
Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 12:32:57QUOTE (Pandubear @ Mar 25 2009, 04:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Stalled on top of all three fingers
That would be B123, if you use the Expanded Hand Notation -
Date: Fri, May 22 2009 11:15:18
Hello guys, I have a question:
Is there any official notation of the Palm Position (Palm Up/Down)?
Sorry, if it's written in this topic, but I'm a bit lazy :X -
Date: Sat, May 23 2009 14:05:55
for one hand it is palm up, palm down and palm side.
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Date: Tue, May 26 2009 15:16:18QUOTE (Zombo @ May 23 2009, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>for one hand it is palm up, palm down and palm side.
Ah, I know how to name the Palm Position, but I want to know something else:
Look, when I'm doing i.e.:
TW Sonic 23-12 -> Pass rev 12-23 -> Rev TW Sonic 23-34 -> Pass normal 34-23 -> TW Sonic Bust 23-12
I'm changing the palm position two times. With my information - I cannot include these palm position changes in normal and official breakdown. I have my own way to include that, but first I want to know is there a formal way to notate it? -
Date: Tue, May 26 2009 15:20:33
officially there is no notation
you can write it as
(PS) or (PU) or (PD)
before the name of the trick -
Date: Sat, May 30 2009 00:35:50
Is the NC working on some system to breakdown spin transfers? I had a really hard time trying to breakdown some recent wt09 videos due both the appearing of new hybrids and the spin transfers.
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Date: Sat, May 30 2009 04:51:38
You can use a generic spin trick name to denote a spin with an unspecified push
Palmspin, Backhand Spin
then you use ~ to denote spin transfer since it indicates omission of the unspecified push.
TA ~ Backhand Spin 34 (example)
(this is only my suggestion) -
Date: Sat, May 30 2009 05:14:30
once we release the 1p2h notation it'll be simple to breakdown in hybrid notation
i'll do that once school lets out -
Date: Mon, Jun 1 2009 05:27:00
(copy pasted from the irreversible trick thread.)
In my opinion the Tipped Charge should should be separated into Tipped Charge and Tipped Charge Reverse.
When performing a Charge(assuming you are right-handed), the tip on the inside of your hand rotates down then up in a Clockwise direction.
However when performing a Charge Reverse(assuming you are right-handed), the tip on the inside of your hand rotates up then down in a Counterclockwise direction.
This should also relate to the Tipped Charge and Tipped Charge Reverse.
When performing "Tipped" tricks that have had their conic rotations removed, the direction they "tip" should stay the same.
In a Tipped Charge the tip on the inside of your hand should first go down then up.
While in a Tipped Charge Reverse the tip on the inside of your hand should first go up then down.
Otherwise if they were to be converted back to tricks with Conic rotation the spinning directions would be different.
For example you would not perform a Sonic reverse by having the tip on the inside of your hand go down first. Otherwise it would be a Moonwalk Sonic. -
Date: Tue, Jun 2 2009 17:41:49
Hi.
As some of you may know, japanese spinners call inverse sonic "symmetrical sonic". I now can imagine how well you would not understand why those inverse tricks were named so. In fact, I am sure that our naming of inverse tricks is incorrect.
That's because I noticed the difference between inverse and symmetrical. Originally, HIDEAKI is the who named the trick "symmetrical sonic", for a translation of the word symmetrical is just (considered1) what he would like to describe the appearance of the trick.
And, as for the difference of the two I'd like to check, a "symmetrical" object is one which has a symmetry element in it, whereas "inverse" refers to the relationship between an object and the other one; is this alright?
If I am correct, then I think we should revise our naming system. -
Date: Thu, Jun 4 2009 04:22:18QUOTE (Aphsamoth @ Jun 2 2009, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi.
As some of you may know, japanese spinners call inverse sonic "symmetrical sonic". I now can imagine how well you would not understand why those inverse tricks were named so. In fact, I am sure that our naming of inverse tricks is incorrect.
That's because I noticed the difference between inverse and symmetrical. Originally, HIDEAKI is the who named the trick "symmetrical sonic", for a translation of the word symmetrical is just (considered1) what he would like to describe the appearance of the trick.
And, as for the difference of the two I'd like to check, a "symmetrical" object is one which has a symmetry element in it, whereas "inverse" refers to the relationship between an object and the other one; is this alright?
If I am correct, then I think we should revise our naming system.
I find it a bit hard to understand you -- sorry. But though you have a point, I say our naming for inverse is fine. Inverse is somewhat synonymous to the word, opposite, and inverse tricks are normally done on the opposite side of the hand (ex: inverse shadows, inverse sonic).
Symmetry is exact reflection of form on opposite sides of a dividing line or plane. Which sort of does work with inverse sonic and sonic if you consider the fingers to be that dividing line -- sort of works. but then again symmety can be applied to a lot of tricks. A sonic rise is symmetrical if you consider 23 to be the dividing line.
All in all, inverse is simply more cohesive and clear. -
Date: Sat, Jun 6 2009 16:09:44
No, you get it.
Well, I could assume the possibility of using symmetrical as inverse, considering the fingers to be symmetry plane, and I'm still wondering if only the predicative use of symmetrical may be more likely to mean like inverse than the attributive. Is there any difference in meaning between the predicative use of symmetrical and the attributive?QUOTEAll in all, inverse is simply more cohesive and clear.This is actually a welcome answer. Yet, if the attributive use of symmetrical cannnot especially work like inverse, virtually means only "symmetry", a symmetrical trick (i.e. attributive) is a trick which has a symmetry element per se, in which symmetrical sonic is symmetrical, no longer dependent on sonic in terms of its symmetry. And I agree to the symptom that a lot of tricks can be symmetrical.
By the way, sonic rise is an interesting example, although its symmetry element is not 23 reflection but exactly translation due to the direction. -
Date: Sat, Jun 6 2009 21:51:27QUOTE (Aphsamoth @ Jun 6 2009, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>No, you get it.
Well, I could assume the possibility of using symmetrical as inverse, considering the fingers to be symmetry plane, and I'm still wondering if only the predicative use of symmetrical may be more likely to mean like inverse than the attributive. Is there any difference in meaning between the predicative use of symmetrical and the attributive?
This is actually a welcome answer. Yet, if the attributive use of symmetrical cannnot especially work like inverse, virtually means only "symmetry", a symmetrical trick (i.e. attributive) is a trick which has a symmetry element per se, in which symmetrical sonic is symmetrical, no longer dependent on sonic in terms of its symmetry. And I agree to the symptom that a lot of tricks can be symmetrical.
By the way, sonic rise is an interesting example, although its symmetry element is not 23 reflection but exactly translation due to the direction.
Yes, so you do bring up a good point, but changing a trick name is tough to do anyway. Especially when inverse works fine. -
Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 18:57:19
Hi!
I would like to introduce the problem of the notation of "sided" tricks. The first sided trick invented was the side sonic, I think you know about it. But lots of tricks can be "sided", So I made a vid to show the necessity of a notation, and I'll propose a notation for each of the 3 hybrid trick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmv78-U4sdY
The idea of the notation is to interrupt "virtually" the trick notation at the moment of the side, and then to finish the trick.
The three breakdowns are:
-Pseudo Sonic 34-24 ~> Inverse Sonic 24-14 ~ Side(3) >~ Sonic 14-12
-Pseudo Sonic 34-24 ~> Inverse Sonic 24-14 ~ Side(2) >~ Inverse Sonic 14-12
-Pseudo Sonic 34-24 ~> Inverse Sonic 24-14 ~ Side(2,3) --> Fingerswitch 14-13 >~ Sonic 13-12
For the first, only the ringfinger is sided, for the second, only the middlefinger, and for the third, both middle and ringfingers are sided. I think this is an easy way to breakdown those tricks, and to solve the problem.
And for some tricks, the "modifier" "side" is quite equivocal, for example the flush sonic.
So a good way to be sure of his breakdown is to decompose the flush sonic in two parts, and to introduce the side between the two parts:
Flush sonic 23-14 ~ side(2) ~ flush sonic 14-23
Flush sonic 23-14 ~ side(3) ~ flush sonic 14-23
Flush sonic 23-14 ~ side(2,3) ~ flush sonic 14-23
Perhaps, for this last example, there is a better notation, but I want to know what you are thinking of the sided hybrid tricks.
Byebye!
KIRGO -
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 18:00:16
Hello about another disambiguation of Shadow and Sonic:
Along with your deprecation of Sonic 1.5 and the like with corresponding Shadow 1.5 tricks, such tricks as Sonic 12-T1 and Shadow 12-T1 would also like to be differeniated in words.
Indeed, Shadow can bear less than 1.5 rotations. What matters is whether the pen is held by fingers or not during the migration: Sonic must require the pen to be held by fingers and Shadow requires the pen to spin freely from any finger hold.
If the pen spins for 1.0 rotation freely migrating from 12 to T1, then the trick should be named Shadow 1.0 12-T1, and only if the pen spins for 1.0 rotations always held (i.e. touched) by the index finger and either of the middle or the thumb or by the middle and the thumb during the whole trick, it should be defined as Sonic 1.0 12-T1. -
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 18:26:15QUOTE (Aphsamoth @ Jan 26 2010, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hello about another disambiguation of Shadow and Sonic:
Along with your deprecation of Sonic 1.5 and the like with corresponding Shadow 1.5 tricks, such tricks as Sonic 12-T1 and Shadow 12-T1 would also like to be differeniated in words.
Indeed, Shadow can bear less than 1.5 rotations. What matters is whether the pen is held by fingers or not during the migration: Sonic must require the pen to be held by fingers and Shadow requires the pen to spin freely from any finger hold.
If the pen spins for 1.0 rotation freely migrating from 12 to T1, then the trick should be named Shadow 1.0 12-T1, and only if the pen spins for 1.0 rotations always held (i.e. touched) by the index finger and either of the middle or the thumb or by the middle and the thumb during the whole trick, it should be defined as Sonic 1.0 12-T1.
Not according to the current definitions. Sonic is sonic regardless of whether you hold it, doesn't matter.
EDIT: look to sonic 34-12 for example. many people aren't flexible enough to hold the pen between 1 and 4, but that doesn't mean it's a shadow. you can still even do it palm-sideways without "holding" the pen. -
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 18:29:08
no he has a valid point
a true sonic 12-t1 transitions through the slot t2
while a shadow 12-t1 does not have this slot. -
Date: Tue, Jan 26 2010 18:58:44QUOTE (strat1227 @ Jan 26 2010, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Not according to the current definitions. Sonic is sonic regardless of whether you hold it, doesn't matter.
EDIT: look to sonic 34-12 for example. many people aren't flexible enough to hold the pen between 1 and 4, but that doesn't mean it's a shadow. you can still even do it palm-sideways without "holding" the pen.
Right, not exactly "holding". Sorry for my poor English.
But as Zombo says, Sonic 34-12 should even involve 14 slot in the middle of migration. -
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 01:36:11
i actually agree with the usage of shadow 1.0
there's a clear difference if you try a weissan neobak 12-34 1.0 -
Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 03:45:56QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jan 26 2010, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i actually agree with the usage of shadow 1.0
there's a clear difference if you try a weissan neobak 12-34 1.0
i don't see a distinction between that and just "Fl sonic rev" though
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Date: Wed, Jan 27 2010 20:53:54
But there's a big problem in the notation of the rotation... What does it mean 1.0 ? For a sonic, it's seams to be a "charge" rotation, but for a shadow it's seams to be a spin. Both are too mixed to make a good difference I think... A sonic 1.0 has absolutely no sense if we consider that the notation "1.0" is used to describe spin rotation.
We should have a tool to make the difference between spin an charge rotation. I think our actual notation is not clear on those points. A sonic is for me in the family of the charge, and a shadow in the family of the spin. We can't compare them.
For the sonic 12-T1, he should be "hold" as you say Aphsamoth, but it's never done like this. But can we call the trick a shadow? Well it depends on the number of rotation a shadow has to do to be a shadow =D
That's a bit strange that a shadow 23-12 or a shadow still 12 has to do 0.5 spin rotation to be a shadow, and that a "shadow 12-T1" in fact makes 0 rotation (yes in fact 0.25 but has he is catched early in his spin he makes "0" spin rotation from the initial position).
But we can't speak of a "FL sonic" I think, does it makes sense? -
Date: Sun, Jan 31 2010 06:50:17
We might want to have a definition of "hold" to which I referred. I did not mean strongly "grasping" or "clutching" a pen. It would be like this...
QUOTETo hold a pen refers to keep the pen by at least two fingers preventing it from falling off.Consequently unless you did not hold the pen, the pen would fall off or just keep its rotating condition (or inertial motion).
I did not notice that you do not have a comprehensive notation on rotations of tricks. If you are only considering rotations of Top spin tricks, we may be interested in counting rotations of tricks with other spin types such as Around and Through. Tricks with different spin types should need different ways to count their rotations, in which exhibited rotations possess different meanings. Herein I give a brief example of ways to count different types of spin though some of them are not exactly about counting rotations.- Around: How many times the pen goes freely around fingers
- Top: How many times the pen spins freely on a surface
- Conic: How many cones the pen held by fingers describes
- Through: How many times the pen spins held by fingers going through them
- Pass: How many times the pen held by fingers goes around fingers migrating from one fingerslot to another (usually 0.5)
- Aerial, Roll: Potentially variable (difficult to count or define meaningfully)
By the way, could not only Shadow 1.0 12-T1 and Sonic 1.0 12-T1 but with other fingerslots, say, Sonic 1.0 23-12 and Sadow 1.0 23-12 also be performed individually. -
Date: Fri, Feb 19 2010 10:08:49
I agree with Aphsamoth, I believe it's important to classify tricks in function of their types of rotation.
And some tricks are really difficult to classify, for example the flush sonic... He makes 0.5 rotation in ration of his beginning position, but there are lots of charge rotations during this trick...