UPSB v3

Tricks & Combos / [topic][1.19.1] Diagram Design

  1. Eso
    Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 21:46:54

    Reference: Here

    Diagram Components

    • Modifiers
    • Tricks
    • Graphical Interface


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Modifiers
    Modifiers are basically the list of possible permutations you can act upon a trick, while preserving the identity of the trick.
    If there are any more modifiers, please list them.

    • Fingerless
    • Reverse
    • Inverse
    • Multiple Spin
    • Aerial




    Tricks
    We are attempting to map out the known territory of tricks and their modifiers and how they relate to one another.
    We must discuss how to treat hybrids, stalls, and aerials.

    • ThumbAround - (TS)
    • Charge - (Sonic, Shadow)
    • Pass
    • Sonic
    • Tipped Sonic
    • NeoSonic
    • FingerAround
    • BackAround
    • Sonic Clip
    • iSonic
    • Shadow
    • Twisted Sonic / Warped Sonic
    • Devil's Sonic / Around
    • Demon's Sonic
    • ThumbSpin
    • Triangle Pass
    • Basketball Spin
    • FingerSpin
    • Palm Spin
    • Tap
    • Baktap
    • Flush Sonic
    • Scissor Spin
    • Wiper
    • Infinity
    • Figure 8
    • Leigun
    • Backhand Bounce
    • Levitator
    • Thumb Snap
    • Arm Roll
    • Backhand Tracer




    Graphical Interface
    • Each trick is called a "node", and in the shape of a sphere
    • Each node has associated modifiers
    • The modifiers have unique colors and are arranged around a node in the form of fragmented rings, similar to the quadrants of the Ring of Light on Xbox 360 controllers
    • A node may have a link to another node. This is represented by a solid black line between the nodes
    • There will be a legend on the diagram to help the user understand what each color represents

  2. Mats
    Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 22:29:00

    Are the linkages between each nodes going to indicate similar spin types, or that one is a prerequisite (sp?) for the other, or something else? Could we have say, red lines linking similar spin types and blue lines (and arrow) to say one is a prerequisite (there's that word again doh.gif) of another?

    I think the node idea is good. Most tricks will have most modifiers though.

    How many tricks is this to be done for? I don't see why aerials have to be treated any differently?

    I think 'interrupted' is another modifier but I don't know if it needs to be used here...

    Edit: Moonwalk is another modifier? Not sure if that's been gotten rid of now (I still see it used).

  3. Eso
    Date: Thu, Feb 7 2008 01:33:32

    The lines between each node basically show similar spin types or similar paths.

    I don't want to make anything a prerequisite because the truth of the matter is that there are no true prerequisites. Also, I don't want to tell people how to learn. They should learn on their own.

    I don't know how many tricks should this be done for. I think we should try and get as many tricks possible. I want to try and map out the dynamic relationships between all tricks, but right now, there are some tricks that fit in their own niche. Well, this thread will help iron out these mysteries.

    "Interrupted" seems like a "modifier" that can be applied to everything. We could debate if we want it included... Personally, I don't want it included because it introduces a foreign concept that hasn't caught on to the general communities. Unless we want to inadvertently promote the use of Interrupted Tricks to create new hybrids... Let's debate it out!

    Moonwalk, Psuedo, etc are modifiers but I do not want them in because I don't think they are valid. Moonwalk Sonic is essentially Sonic Clip Normal 12-23.

  4. Eso
    Date: Thu, Feb 7 2008 16:06:35

    I think the most common hybrids should be included in the diagram.

    • Twisted Sonic / Warped Sonic
    • Demon's Sonic
    • Devil's Sonic / Around


    I don't know if I should include tricks such as NeoSonic and PassAround, because NeoSonic Reverse seems to be just the same as PassAround and this discrepancy needs to be discussed before adding it. The name PassAround is going to be abolished, so how can this be reflected upon the diagram?

    For the record, I don't really want to include combos. Things such as Fingerpass, K4LC, etc.

  5. Mats
    Date: Thu, Feb 7 2008 22:31:41

    I don't think PassAround should be included if it's going to be depreciated. Just put Around 0.5. NeoSonics could also be described simply in terms of partial arounds.

    I agree that combos should not be included, with one exception - The FingerPass. Since it is considered a fundamental, it seems that it should be included on the diagram.

    Hybrids should be put in a different colour or something imo, they are not the same as tricks. In fact, they involve interruptions. Maybe it's best that interruptions are left off this as a seperate thing for people to look at? It seems that it would just be put on pretty much every trick as a modifier...

  6. Eso
    Date: Fri, Feb 8 2008 02:09:39

    Well, I don't know if I want to include the idea of interruptions into this diagram. I want to keep this strictly as a dynamics diagram, rather than a syntactic graph. Since the notion of Families is absent in this diagram, I think Interruptions would be absent as well. But that's just what I think. While this seems kind of a double standard, since I don't want combos included, but I figure that combos usually have dynamics that are shared between existing nodes. For example, K4LC has the dynamics of 3 nodes (Sonic, Twisted Sonic, ThumbSpin), and this would further complicate the diagram.

  7. Eso
    Date: Fri, Feb 8 2008 21:25:28

    Ok I updated the list again. It contains most of the tricks from the Trick List from the wiki. This way, we can weed out anything that's not needed. I also added 2 more modifiers, Counter and Aerial. This is to prevent multiple nodes that share the same dynamics.

  8. sketching
    Date: Fri, Feb 8 2008 21:57:24

    For the final diagram, I would suggest using a different word than "modifier" if it is to be used in the legend, so as not to confuse the term with the official trick modifiers.

  9. Eso
    Date: Fri, Feb 8 2008 22:32:43

    I based the modifiers off of the official trick modifiers, with the exception of Multiple Spins. I do not see any confusion, but if it comes to a renaming, I would probably rename it to "Permutations".

  10. sketching
    Date: Fri, Feb 8 2008 23:50:59

    Continuous really shouldn't be a modifier, since nothing about the trick is changed, you are just performing a combo, but that's a NC issue.

    I would put a line directly between Sonic and Charge. When doing continuous Charges, a very small change in finger movement can change from Charge to Sonic.

    I would have another line connect Sonic and Shadow.

  11. Eso
    Date: Sat, Feb 9 2008 00:09:39

    QUOTE (sketching @ Feb 8 2008, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Continuous really shouldn't be a modifier, since nothing about the trick is changed, you are just performing a combo, but that's a NC issue.

    I would put a line directly between Sonic and Charge. When doing continuous Charges, a very small change in finger movement can change from Charge to Sonic.

    I would have another line connect Sonic and Shadow.



    Thanks for pointing that out! I'll remove Continuous from the modifiers. I'll also update the top post with the links between each node. It'll be in a linked list format, kinda. This way it'll be easier to map out when I'm drawing it out.

  12. sketching
    Date: Mon, Feb 11 2008 01:52:51

    You said above that you don't want interruptions included, so Counter should be removed. Counter is an interruption of a trick in one direction with a fingerless trick in the opposite direction.

  13. Eso
    Date: Wed, Feb 13 2008 22:19:51

    I am currently learning Photoshop so hopefully within this week or the next, I will have a rough draft available for review.

  14. Eso
    Date: Thu, Mar 6 2008 03:16:12

    Here is a node. I can make it lighter if need be.

  15. Sfsr
    Date: Thu, Mar 6 2008 08:35:25

    What about format?

    "Format: 72 DPI
    686 x 842 pixels
    24,2 x 29,7 cm"

    to fit in the mag?

  16. Eso
    Date: Thu, Mar 6 2008 14:40:10

    Hm, I'll have to figure out some more on this. Thanks for the notice!

    However, if the nodes are too small and the text can't be read, then maybe this will have to exist as an external PDF.

  17. sketching
    Date: Thu, Mar 6 2008 19:43:12

    I'm thinking that this will end up much too big to fit in the magazine. If anything, Eso could have a report on the subject of the diagram, with a detailed description and its aims, then have a link to the file.

  18. Zombo
    Date: Thu, Mar 6 2008 19:46:30

    make it a seperate file that can be printed as a big poster.

  19. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Mar 8 2008 21:44:56

    Sounds good.

  20. Mats
    Date: Sun, Mar 9 2008 10:59:02

    'Multiple Spin
    Aerial'

    As modifiers? Since when? Multiple spin can be applied to A LOT of tricks of various types and isn't a modifier. Aerial? This is a spin type? If Aerial is a modifier, then should not also Sonic, Charge, Around etc also be modifiers?


    You have infinity listed twice on that list of tricks too btw.

    QUOTE
    For the record, I don't really want to include combos.


    QUOTE
    Twisted Sonic / Warped Sonic
    Devil's Sonic / Around
    Demon's Sonic
    Triangle Pass
    Infinity
    Backhand Tracer


    Are not all of those combos? huh(1).gif

    On the diagram:

    Why the seperate node for FL Around Reverses? Should Fingerless and Reverse not just be modifiers on 'Arounds' node and that is that?

    Why is NeoSonic connected to Sonic when it is a trick of the Around family?

    Extended TA should have Reverse and FL modifiers on it.

    Is there not an Inverse I-Sonic (i.e. One in which then pen will vanish from the back of the hand to the front)? I've not seen it done but it must be possible.

    NeoBak should carry a Cont modifier if you are using that (modifier).

    Cont should be on Infinity and Figure of 8.

  21. Eso
    Date: Sun, Mar 9 2008 19:33:50

    QUOTE (Mats @ Mar 9 2008, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    'Multiple Spin
    Aerial'

    As modifiers? Since when? Multiple spin can be applied to A LOT of tricks of various types and isn't a modifier. Aerial? This is a spin type? If Aerial is a modifier, then should not also Sonic, Charge, Around etc also be modifiers?

    Modifiers isn't the same modifiers you know it as. I think the more correct term would be... permutations? The different things you can do with each trick.


    QUOTE
    You have infinity listed twice on that list of tricks too btw.

    Thanks! I'll fix that.



    QUOTE
    Are not all of those combos? huh(1).gif

    Well, they're hybrids. I am willing to make the exception for hybrids, but I don't intend on including combos like K4LC.

    QUOTE
    Why the seperate node for FL Around Reverses? Should Fingerless and Reverse not just be modifiers on 'Arounds' node and that is that?

    Why is NeoSonic connected to Sonic when it is a trick of the Around family?

    Extended TA should have Reverse and FL modifiers on it.

    Is there not an Inverse I-Sonic (i.e. One in which then pen will vanish from the back of the hand to the front)? I've not seen it done but it must be possible.

    NeoBak should carry a Cont modifier if you are using that (modifier).

    Cont should be on Infinity and Figure of 8.

    The diagram is outdated. I'm going to get rid of the FL Around Reverse "link".
    I agree with the NeoSonic issue.
    I believe LB did the Inverse I-Sonic before. I'll be sure to make Inverse a part of i-Sonic.
    All other points you made, I'll see to them.

  22. Eso
    Date: Fri, Mar 28 2008 04:39:10

    Updated node with the outer ring:


    or

  23. sketching
    Date: Fri, Mar 28 2008 06:03:02

    bottom image

  24. Zombo
    Date: Sat, Mar 29 2008 13:20:21

    both are the same thing except for that bubble? why is there a bubble?

  25. Mats
    Date: Thu, Apr 3 2008 11:45:24

    I guess the bubble is to try and make it appear 3d. However, I find that it is just annoying and the lower of the two images is the best and looking very nice, I must say.

  26. Eso
    Date: Thu, Jun 5 2008 23:04:15



    This is what I have so far. Any suggestions? I have not yet decided what to assign each color since I want to make sure this is a good design choice first. Let me know.

  27. iMatt
    Date: Thu, Jun 12 2008 04:55:23

    change the gradient to white. keep it simple.

  28. Sfsr
    Date: Thu, Jun 12 2008 08:01:42

    You mean the complete node? I wouldn't do that, I think this looks awesome.

  29. Eso
    Date: Thu, Feb 12 2009 07:34:44

    I finally created a rough draft of the diagram:

    http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/808/dddraftit6.jpg

    Please give suggestions, corrections, complaints, etc. Also, I will be uploading the PSD files so that others on the RD can edit it as they wish. Thank you for reviewing.

  30. Zombo
    Date: Thu, Feb 12 2009 12:26:08

    hmm i found myself looking frequently at the legend in the bottom cuz mapping modifiers to colors is pretty abstract...maybe there's a better way

  31. Awesome
    Date: Wed, Feb 25 2009 01:25:31

    QUOTE (Zombo @ Feb 12 2009, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    hmm i found myself looking frequently at the legend in the bottom cuz mapping modifiers to colors is pretty abstract...maybe there's a better way

    I had the same problem, maybe you could make the colors larger and put like a letter in them. like red is for reverse so in that red area you could put in a darker shade red "R" or maybe even "rev." and so on, without making it less appealing, if you get the shades right.


    I have the sudden urge to play FF X now tongue.gif

  32. Mats
    Date: Wed, Feb 25 2009 01:27:22

    Scissor Spin and NeoSonic really don't have a reverse? I'm sure they do... Do all tricks not have reverses?

  33. Outsmash
    Date: Tue, Mar 3 2009 15:16:30

    QUOTE (Mats @ Feb 25 2009, 06:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Scissor Spin and NeoSonic really don't have a reverse? I'm sure they do... Do all tricks not have reverses?


    They do. A bak ~ scissor spin would make the scissor spin a reverse and neobak reverse is also possible.

  34. Mats
    Date: Tue, Mar 3 2009 18:36:16

    Shadow and NeoBackAround are on seperate nodes? I thought Fingerless Shadow = NeoBak?

    Also, multiple spin arounds are possible... I have seen several videos of Around 1.5s.

  35. Eso
    Date: Tue, Mar 3 2009 23:01:59

    NeoBackAround as in the Weis version. NeoBak would be the Fingerless Shadow. Around 1.5 haven't been fully described, IIRC.

  36. walkingjacket
    Date: Wed, Mar 4 2009 02:53:22

    QUOTE (Eso @ Mar 4 2009, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Around 1.5 haven't been fully described, IIRC.


    Would it be something like Fingeraround 1.0 xy ~ Fingerless Fingeraround 0.5 xy-zx?

  37. Charlie
    Date: Wed, Mar 4 2009 03:47:43

    QUOTE (walkingjacket @ Mar 3 2009, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Would it be something like Fingeraround 1.0 xy ~ Fingerless Fingeraround 0.5 xy-zx?


    Mats either talking about spiderspins or what I did in my WT vid (which no one noticed :[) in the beginning.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqtFEjhTRcU...re=channel_page

  38. Mats
    Date: Wed, Mar 4 2009 11:28:04

    QUOTE
    Mats either talking about spiderspins


    No, because these are spins, not arounds.

    QUOTE
    Would it be something like Fingeraround 1.0 xy ~ Fingerless Fingeraround 0.5 xy-zx?


    No, it would be Fingeraround 1.5 slot-slot

  39. walkingjacket
    Date: Thu, Mar 5 2009 02:56:52

    QUOTE (Mats @ Mar 5 2009, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    No, it would be Fingeraround 1.5 slot-slot


    Fingeraround 0.5 xy ~ Fingerspin 0.5 ~ Fingeraround 0.5 xy

    Or an example with fingers:

    Middlearound 0.5 23 ~ Middlespin 0.5 ~ Middlearound 0.5 23

    -----

    I can't think of anything else that you could be talking about, but if this is the right breakdown, then it's not a 'fingeraround 1.5' because of the extra 0.5 fingerspin in the middle of the hybrid.

  40. Mats
    Date: Thu, Mar 5 2009 15:21:00

    QUOTE (walkingjacket @ Mar 5 2009, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Fingeraround 0.5 xy ~ Fingerspin 0.5 ~ Fingeraround 0.5 xy

    Or an example with fingers:

    Middlearound 0.5 23 ~ Middlespin 0.5 ~ Middlearound 0.5 23

    -----

    I can't think of anything else that you could be talking about, but if this is the right breakdown, then it's not a 'fingeraround 1.5' because of the extra 0.5 fingerspin in the middle of the hybrid.


    No it's not what I'm talking about... facepalm.gif

    I'm talking about Fingeraround 1.5s.

    Or an example with fingers:

    IndexAround 1.5 12-23

    A bit of searching yielded a video by sketching. All cleared up now. smile.gif