UPSB v3
Naming Committee / [project][5.15] Hybrid Half Taps and Taps (Expanded Notation)
a way to extend the notion
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Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 17:06:52
While working on Thumbaround and Taps combination, I had this idea to do half taps and taps but not with the fingers where the pen is laying.
It's a bit strange at the beginning but it becomes easier with some training (as usual)
So I just tried to do a video gathering some of them including the reverse ones
then I talked about it with Zombo and we came to the fact it could be interesting to extend the notion of Half taps
There is also some other possibilities about the way t do tricks withe fingers that are not involved in the trick itself
The reverse hybrid culd actually be the True reverse half tap
Maybe Zombo will be clearer than me because of my poor english^
Anyway, here is the video that tries to explain a bit what's goin on
Just tell me what you think of that and if you think it could be interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPW6ESAkfG0 -
Date: Sun, Feb 17 2008 18:10:17
yes basically Fratleym's idea is an generalisation of the concept of "taps".
in the regular tap, the pen is lying on the 2 and the pen is being tapped by the 1. in the video, fratleym shows that it's possible to tap the pen with the 2 or 3 while the pen is lying on 1.
in the reverse tap, the pen is lying on the 2 and the pen is being tapped by the t. in the video, the pen is lying on 1 and tapped by the 2 or 3.
I think it's an interesting discovery because we never tend to pay attention at what finger is the "pusher" and which finger is the "supporter". those simple ideas show another dimension of variability we can add to the (much-confined) tap family.
The challenge now is how to name this general class. We'd need a way to differentiate the tapping finger from the supporting fingers.
Furthermore, this also opens possibilities in other families. Consider the baktap family. A simple baktap 12 is tapped by the 2, but you might as well tap it with 3.
Consider the backaround family. Immediately after releasing the pen from 12 (backaround 12), the pen could be further tapped by 2 or 3 to reinforce the spin. This is easier to visualize with the weissian backaround. Likewise for the shadow.
Basically this discovery opens a new way of thinking about variations and seperates the roles of the fingers in a trick. One could say at that a finger is "Active" when it moves during a trick and contributes to the spin of a trick and a figner is "Passive" if it is invovled in the trick, but does not move (only supporting).
Very good. -
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 12:32:19
We should be able to use Interrupted Trick Notation with this. The wording for the push section can be revised to instead use "x" to simply stating what is used for the push, instead of the entire starting position, which is already placed after the trick name.
QUOTE (current wiki article)[p x] = The [p] stands for "push", and is placed after the first trick, to signify that this is the push used to do the trick. The x can be replaced by the fingers it starts from (T1 or 34 or whatever), if the trick is not starting from its normal starting postition.
Halftap Normal T2-T2[p 3][s 0.5][c]
This shows a Halftap T2-T2 with a push from the ring finger. -
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 14:18:11
what ab out a shortened form?
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Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 16:33:55
I think we can use just the push section for the shortened form.
Halftap T2[p 3] -
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 17:47:58
i like this a lot, simple and reuses existing notation.
however the interrupted notation then becomes a misnomer, because it can be used for other purposes. -
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 23:53:02
The name could be kept due it's original purpose...which may go against the point of proper naming.
It could be renamed to something like "Expanded Trick Notation". We are pulling apart a single trick into 3 distinct portions in the formal notation, which expanded the possible naming into hybrids. Adding the ability to describe new ways of pushing continues the idea. -
Date: Tue, Feb 19 2008 09:30:51
Why not just call it 'advanced trick notation'. This suggests that it is still part of trick notation, but that it will not be as simple as the 'basic trick notation'. A trick notated with basic notation is described well. A trick described with advanced trick notation is described completely. We could then have two wiki articles, or two sections on the same article for basic and advanced trick notations.
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Date: Tue, Feb 19 2008 16:45:04QUOTE (Mats @ Feb 19 2008, 04:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Why not just call it 'advanced trick notation'. This suggests that it is still part of trick notation, but that it will not be as simple as the 'basic trick notation'. A trick notated with basic notation is described well. A trick described with advanced trick notation is described completely. We could then have two wiki articles, or two sections on the same article for basic and advanced trick notations.
advanced trick notation is misleading, because advanced trick is a section here on UPSB which treats with non-fundamental tricks.
expanded is a better term.
we need to release on article on this, with fratleym's consent. -
Date: Wed, Feb 20 2008 12:29:13
no problem to me^^
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Date: Wed, Feb 20 2008 17:01:27
Most of the article doesn't need to be changed. Mainly the introduction and a portion added about pushes differing from the norm. Here's a rough idea of what can be changed/added to the current article...
QUOTE (current article intro)The aim of this article is to classify the use of one of more partial tricks with a unified notation as "interrupted" tricks. Here are some examples of ways that this is be accomplished:The aim of the ''Expanded Trick Notation'' is to more precisely describe the performance of pen spinning tricks. The purpose is allow a greater flexibility in describing the details of tricks, especially when these details differ from the usual. The following are but a few ways that this notation can further describe tricks:
Addition to the first examples, following the introduction:- A trick is pushed by a finger not normally used in the trick. In a few examples by Fratleym, Halftaps are performed with a pushing finger that differs than the usual.
QUOTE (current article)[p x] = The [p] stands for "push", and is placed after the first trick, to signify that this is the push used to do the trick. The x can be replaced by the fingers it starts from (T1 or 34 or whatever), if the trick is not starting from its normal starting postition.[p x] = The [p] stands for "push" and is placed after the trick name. This signifies the push portion of the trick. The x can be replaced by the finger(s) used to push the pen if different than its normal pushing finger(s).
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Date: Wed, Feb 20 2008 17:55:29
well i didnt mean to modify the original article, but rather release a new one as an addendum
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Date: Thu, Feb 21 2008 16:51:10
Alrighty, here's a rough article that can be linked from the Interrupted Trick Notation article...
Expanded Notation
As pen spinning continues to grow, so must the notation that is used to describe it. The last major change to how we look at and think about pen spinning tricks was the Interrrupted Trick Notation, designed to better describe partial tricks and how they interact with other partial and full tricks. Continuing with this process is another idea brought to the Research Department's attention by Fratleym of UPSB and FPSB.
The idea is to describe tricks where the push comes from fingers not normally involved in the push of a trick. Frat started with Halftaps and Fulltaps. Rather than using the finger directly above the two supporting fingers to push, Frat moves the job of the pushing finger to other parts of the hand. This greatly increases the possibilities of how to perform tricks and possibly add additional help to others. This concept can most easily be applied to all topspin tricks (Shadow, Baktap, etc...) while Zombo brought the idea of Backarounds using additional fingers part-way through the trick to give additional help. The question is how to go about describing such actions. Luckily, the RD already has a notation in place that can be used to further describe these kinds of actions. Using part of the Interrupted Trick Notation, we can describe these extra pushes even in complete tricks, rather than sticking to the partial tricks that the notation was created for.
Notation
[p x] = The [p] stands for "push" and is placed after the trick name. This signifies the push portion of the trick. The x can be replaced by the finger(s) used to push the pen if different than its normal pushing finger(s).
Examples
Halftap T2-T2 with a push by the ring finger.- Formal notation
- Halftap T2-T2[p 3][s 0.5][c]
Informal notation - Halftap 0.5 T2-T2[p 3]
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Date: Thu, Feb 21 2008 16:56:46
pretty good, but it s hould include a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPW6ESAkfG0
and breakdown of the different tricks in it.
maybe mention the idea can also be aplpied to baktaps, shadows and more? -
Date: Thu, Feb 21 2008 17:10:44
Yeah, the underlined portions will be linked in the actual article, the underlined "Halftaps and Fulltaps" will link to the usual youtube video portion at the bottom of the article.
Added mention of all topspin tricks to the second paragraph. -
Date: Thu, Feb 21 2008 17:25:21
add the breakdown for frat's vid and it'll be good to go.
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Date: Thu, Feb 21 2008 18:15:48
Alright, the article is up on the wiki.
In the above examples, the starting and ending positions are stated the same way as with the hybrid notation. The push section of the trick shows the additional finger used (in this case, the ring finger) for the push of the trick. The shorthand, informal, notation brings only the push section of the original hybrid notation to accurately describe how the push differs from the usual performance.
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I still suggest using the above description (or something similar) for the push section in the original article. A starting position that differs from the usual finger slot can still be placed directly after the trick name so also placing it in the push section is just repetitive. Using the push section for describing the pushing finger(s) alone makes more sense.