UPSB v3
Naming Committee / General NC Brainstorm
-
Date: Fri, Jun 15 2007 01:23:19
RippDrive
------------
"This section is basically for you to post any future projects you would like to see or any ideas you have about how the committee should be run. Rather than going though the whole process of an organised debate and vote and all that you can just run it by everyone in here.
Feel free to expand on peoples ideas or point out weak points but once again, be constructive.
Anything along the lines of "Wouldn't it be cool if we had..." or "I think we should change..." would go here." -
Date: Tue, Oct 2 2007 04:23:47
How strict should NeoSonics be? Where should the official catch be?
If NeoSonic does not have to end in the T1 slot or in the Thumbflap, then you do things like NeoSonic 34-12 fairly easily, it then becomes a hybrid of Fingeraround Reverse ~ Inverse Sonic. Doing a NeoSonic with as flat a hand as is possible, the pen only does 0.5 rotation from the 23 slot to the T1 slot, the extra 0.5 comes from the Thumb's position and needing to rotate more to reach it normally. Going from 34-12 only needs 0.5 rotation.
Example: NeoSonic 34-12 ends up being:
Fingeraround Reverse 34-23 [p][s 0.5] ~ Inverse Sonic 23-12 [c]
Edit: here's a video showing the usual NeoSonic 23-T1, followed by two "NeoSonics Normal 34-12" hybrid combos...and a Backaround.
-
Date: Tue, Oct 2 2007 06:26:32
How come it's a hybrid. Isn't it just an Around Reverse?
NeoSonic 34-12 = MiddleRingAround Reverse 34-12 0.5 ?
Edit: Haha, there's another (very minor) issue. On multiplel finger arounds, which fingers should be listed first on the name. Index to pinky (MiddleRing round), or pinky to index (RingMiddleAround), or should we just not care what order they are in? -
Date: Tue, Oct 2 2007 06:34:41
The pen travels along the inside of the hand, as it passes by the Middle finger, before being caught in the 12 slot, instead of the outside as a Fingeraround Reverse variation would tend to be done. With a change in how the pen is moving around the hand, it seems to me that there would be a change of trick involved.
MiddleRingaround Reverse / RingMiddlearound Reverse would have the pen first traveling along the outside of the Middle finger, then going around that finger. "NeoSonic 34-12" does not do that.
I would assume that for naming tricks like MiddleRingaround / RingMiddlearound, the first finger to be written would be the first pen that the pen goes past, the second/third/etc finger would be the last finger that the pen goes around. -
Date: Sun, Oct 7 2007 12:14:20QUOTE (sketching)How strict should NeoSonics be? Where should the official catch be?
I think as long as the pushes, spins, and catches are consistent, then it's ok to have tricks like Neosonic 34-12. But this is assuming that Neosonic 23-T1 is actually Fingeraround Rev 0.5 23-T2 ~ Inv Sonic T2-T1 0.5. If we make this the official definition of the hybrid Neosonic, then some tricks will come into question, such as Neosonic 12-T1, which wouldn't be considered a Neosonic anymore.
So the question is, is Neosonic = Fingeraround ~ Inv Sonic? -
Date: Sun, Oct 7 2007 18:24:16
One problem is that the original needs more rotation due to the Thumb placement. Any variation not involving the Thumb doesn't seem to need as much rotation to complete the same basic path of the pen since the rest of the fingers are on the same plane. Performing NeoSonics with the hand as flat as it can be, everything seems to work out the same except NeoSonic 12-T1, since there is no longer a finger between the 2 slots used for the push and catch.
The main question was really whether the original NeoSonic should be caught in the Thumbflap or just the T1 slot. Having NeoSonics in other finger positions is not needed since they are obviously hybrids and can be written as such.
It was just something interesting that I came up with after looking at the path of the pen during the original NeoSonic. -
Date: Fri, Oct 12 2007 02:30:32
I propose we release something to clarify the differences among NeoSonic, FingerAround, and PassAround. In my opinion, PassAround is redundant, since, as far as I know, it is the same as FingerAround 0.5. Many also seem to believe that NeoSonics may end in slots other than the Thumbflap, which we have not necessarily concluded, but created a feeling of agreement that these are not NeoSonics but hybrids.
-
Date: Fri, Dec 7 2007 20:01:37
I was thinking about Pseudo Sonics and hybrids. Here's some thoughts thrown out...
Pseudo Sonic 34-34 seems to be considered by most to be a trick but can be expressed as a hybrid of:
Sonic 0.5 34-23 ~ Moonwalk Sonic 0.5 23-34
I was thinking about a Pseudo Sonic that starts in the 34 slot, goes up to the index finger, then falls back down to the 34 slot:
Sonic 0.5 34-12 ~ Moonwalk Sonic 0.5 12-34
In that instance, as a trick breakdown, it could be written as Pseudo Sonic 34-12-34.
To further that example, a Pseudo Sonic might be able to be classified as being able to travel between finger slots as something like:
Sonic 0.5 34-12 ~ Moonwalk Sonic 0.5 12-23
The above could be expressed as Pseudo Sonic 34-23.
@thig: I'm still okay with allowing Fingerarounds to only have to rotate 0.5 around a finger and to remove the Passaround name. This just keeps things simple. -
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 10:24:41
I don't see the point in removing trick names. Adding new stuff is great to me, but removing names and just getting everything down to Sonic and Arounds with different modifiers just isn't kewl :(
-
Date: Sat, Dec 8 2007 16:33:31
Passaround is a fairly recent addition, so I don't see a problem with getting rid of it. Even if arounds have to go 1.0 rotation, we can still use hybrid notation and 0.5 around to describe a Passaround.
-
Date: Mon, Jan 28 2008 03:34:03
Hello.
Its been a while. I apologize for my inactivity.
So how are we going to decide on this? by vote? -
Date: Mon, Jan 28 2008 12:53:01
A vote on passarounds? I think that would be a good idea. This committee really needs a leader (suggests sketching) and some activitiy! There is much to be done!
-
Date: Wed, Jan 30 2008 02:40:08
I've given up on using Passaround for now. It seems to confuse people even more. >_<
I'm sticking with partial Fingerarounds instead of Passarounds since we have an appropriate notation for them. -
Date: Thu, Jan 31 2008 05:30:16
If we all agree that PassAround is unnecessary, then I think we should release a brief statement discouraging the use of the term.
-
Date: Thu, Jan 31 2008 17:59:14
I agree that it's unnecessary. So how would we notate it then? PassAround 23-12 is now MiddleAround .5 23-12?
-
Date: Thu, Jan 31 2008 21:35:45
@Leviathan: yeah, I've just been notating, as an example: Passaround Normal 23-12 as...
Middlearound Normal 0.5 23-12 ~ ... -
Date: Sun, Feb 3 2008 09:46:16
We can put Anti-Gravity Fingeraround on the board to decide whether it would be useful to keep/get rid of the name variation.
Normally, such a variation would simply be a palm-down variation of a trick, in this case:
palm-down Fingerless Fingeraround Reverse xx-xx -
Date: Sun, Feb 3 2008 09:59:13QUOTE (sketching @ Feb 3 2008, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>We can put Anti-Gravity Fingeraround on the board to decide whether it would be useful to keep/get rid of the name variation.
Normally, such a variation would simply be a palm-down variation of a trick, in this case:
palm-down Fingerless Fingeraround Reverse xx-xx
I agree we should put it on the board. The name should be gotten rid of. Anti-Gravity doesn't follow naming conventions and there is already easy notation to describe it. Palm down versions of tricks don't deserve an entire new name and I can see palm down FL FingerAround Reverse xx-xx being done palm down having a different name only causing confusion. -
Date: Mon, Feb 18 2008 12:20:45
I'm wondering if palm-orientation should be added as official modifiers? Palm-orientation tends to change how a trick is performed fairly dramatically, as working with the effect of gravity can sometimes be very important depending on the trick performed. We could then have official abbreviations to make it easier to write breakdowns for those trick variations. For example, the Anti-Gravity Fingerarounds and the palm-down Thumbaround that Leon recently showed. Palm-orientation could be placed at the very front of the trick description, before any other modifiers.
Examples:
Palm-up Fingerless Indexaround Normal 1.0 11-11
or
PU FL IA 11
Palm-down Sonic Normal 34-23
or
PD Sonic 34
Edit: actually, the palm-orientation may be more important to the trick performance than the other modifiers, and might be placed closest to the "core" element, like we decided on where to place "Reverse" in the trick name. -
Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 14:10:31
I guess that using PU or PD as official modifiers for each trick could overcharge the notation of a combo dramatically. But as it's often whole parts of a combo that are done "PU" or "PD", it could be useful to indicate the change in palm-orientation when it happens...
something like
sonic normal 23-12 > sonic reverse 12-23 > ... > sonic normal 23-12 >PD> sonic normal 23-12 > ... > sonic reverse 12-23 >PU> sonic 23-12
would figure for a sonic harmonic with palm-orientation change in the middle...and switching back to PU at the end. Of course if you do only one trick PD or PU in a whole combo in another palm-orientation , these would stand only around 1 trick... Or in the middle of a trick ? like trick1~PU~trick1 ? (you can make great sonics with this midtrick switch)
Another problem for the NC introduced by a hard-to-remember-the-nick member :
do we consider the "P" for "Palm" as an object to notate the position of the pen, as a "finger slot" ?
Can we talk about sonic 12-P1 , or backaround P-T1 , etc -
Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 20:17:42
It makes enough sense to have everything after the acronym have that orientation. On first reading, I missed the part about using the hybrid notation for mid-trick orientation changes. That makes enough sense to me.
About palm as a finger slot.
I don't see how something like P1 would work, but I would like having P as a position anyway, along with B for the back of the hand. For the example of Backaround that starts in the palm, you would still need to show where the pen went directly after the palm. Backaround P-23-T1 makes more sense to me, showing where the pen goes after it leaves the palm and where it ends up. For an ending position, Backaround 23-T1-P and Backaround 0.5 23-B seems obvious enough to me to be used. -
Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 21:24:44
Yay, you sure have a point with backaround P-23-T1, I should have noticed the lack of information. About something like "P1", it could make sense to notate that cool neosonic Zombo did in an old collab...UPSB+PDS
. The catch was really nothing else than "P1" ( finger 1 folded, and the pen between 1 and the Palm ). As for B, if we take P why shouldn't we take B with it. Of course, that makes a lot of sense. -
Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 07:45:23
That slot would actually be written as 11, since it's not quite held between 1 and the palm but solely with 1.
I agree on that we should use P and B though. Sketching, why wouldn't P1 work? You just have the pen on your palm and hold it down with 1. -
Date: Wed, Apr 9 2008 09:20:26
@Sfsr: *smacks forehead*
yeah....I ignore that part of my post.
-
Date: Sat, May 3 2008 18:17:24
If any of you guys know about Fratleym's "fingerswitching" , I'd like to deal a bit with "implicit fingerswitching"...which means when a fingerswitch is not appearant in the breakdown of the combo...
Quick examples :
sonic 23-12 > Backaround Reverse 12-12 : no fingerswitching, in A>B , every ending slot of a A is the starting slot of B.
sonic 23-12 > invisible pass 12-T1 > TA T1-T12 : appearant fingerswitching : the i-pass notate the fingerswitch between 2 and T, which is done without any movement of the pen ( btw, it's hard to consider the i-pass as a trick, I think ).
charge T1 > charge T2 : implicit fingerswitching . In A>B, ending slot of A not equal to starting slot of B. A fingerswitch is necessary without any "linking trick" between A and B, for if there was one it would have to appear in the breakdown.
Here my proposal is to explain that in a case where, in A>B , ending slot of A not equal to starting slot of B , a fingerswitch is implied, and so, must be read between the words. An optional sign to show the fingerswitch could also be set up, and be used to detail the combo as largely as possible, but this convention would be useful in shorthand notations like the informal expanded trick notation... -
Date: Sat, May 3 2008 18:41:03
I'd like to formally name "fingerswitching" slotswitching instead, since you switch what slot the pen is in.
-
Date: Sun, May 4 2008 11:40:45
Yeah I guess it would have at least as much sense as "fingerswitching", so why not.
-
Date: Sun, May 4 2008 22:46:35
Fingerswitching, makes more sense and sounds better!
Win win win idea sfsr! -
Date: Mon, May 5 2008 03:26:50QUOTE (Mats @ May 4 2008, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Fingerswitching, makes more sense and sounds better!
Win win win idea sfsr!
wait what? sfsr wanted it to be slotswitching...
why not just call it switching?
i actually dont know what this is or how it works, but if it's what im thinking that would allow it to just be notated something like switch 12-23, if that applies -
Date: Mon, May 5 2008 03:43:22
I think we should put it to a vote. . .
-
Date: Mon, May 5 2008 06:33:26QUOTE (Mats @ May 5 2008, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Fingerswitching, makes more sense and sounds better!
Win win win idea sfsr!
(again) wait... what? -
Date: Mon, May 5 2008 15:38:14
Hmm, I haven't quite got it down yet. Would Tipped Sonic fall under this category too then? There isn't much of a trick done as the pen changes slots.
-
Date: Mon, May 5 2008 17:50:02
Yep, tipped sonic is a kind of trick which actually uses only a simple fingerswitch and a very basic pen vibration...
A Fingerswitch(or slotswitch, or switch if renamed) is the act to replace a finger with another in your hand position while doing a trick, or between two tricks, but without introducing further pen movement.
Tipped sonic is a very near example, not really exact because there's a little pen movement involved, that you can hardly avoid, but apart from that it's a kind of fingerswitch.
Other examples : charge T1 > charge T2 > charge T3 > charge T4 , which is easy to deduce from a breakdown, involves not less than 3 fingerswitches, or slotswitching depending the way you see it. -
Date: Tue, May 6 2008 00:56:07
how about triangle pass?
-
Date: Tue, May 6 2008 16:10:30
Triangle pass involves a pen spin, and can be done with push and stop...this is a trick. Besides, the slot doesn't really change a lot, it's always
T12 but not in the "same order"...If we were to generalize the fingerswitching this far, it wouldn't make much sense because every trick that changes the pen slot would involve fingerswitching, which means almost every trick.
That's why as long as there's need of a pen spin to do the slot or finger switch, it's a trick and not a switch...At least I see the things that way... -
Date: Tue, May 6 2008 17:42:37
I agree with Skatox on that, I wouldn't count Triangle Pass in this category because there is significant rotation of the pen in a single direction at a time. Tipped Sonic which has a small amount of see-saw movement without moving the pen anywhere with that movement.
-
Date: Tue, May 6 2008 22:03:11
the first time Fratleym showed me this concept, we somewhat agreed that it was more of a "style" than a definite concept.
has that changed? I'm not convinced it can be part of a trick, but more liek a general style. You can do sonics see-saw as well.
fratleym has access to the RD he should explain himsefl -
Date: Tue, May 6 2008 22:25:37
Basically, I'm kinda stunned by all the knowledge of Skatox in naming convention.
Anyway when I first think about it, it was for this trick: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=ypmjKwr193Y
done at 0.12~0.13
I do a pass 12-T1 then I put my ringfinger to block the pen and I'm finally easily in T3
It makes me wonder about the concept and finally I got ideas about doing something like a mess.
In the video I put on youtube to illustrat the concept (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=459xRubam5U), I just first thought I was doing some mess putting fingers when I wanted just to show that complexity in finger changing could become something cool or at least something that would need to be developped.
Then, I have often used this kind of trick in my combos but don't really pay an attention about finding some convention around it as it really was, to me, something unconventionnal.
Then I talked with Skatox about it, and thse days, someone asked me for a recent breakdown of one of my combo, and I was against this problem. The Ipass/ fingerswitching difference. Sometimes, i naturally choose Ipass and sometimes when it's more "personal" trick I use fingerswitching. It's sometimes pretty hard because fingerswitching are kind of pass but a pass has a 0.5 spin instead of fingerswitching which has no motion at all. I think it's the main differency.
So far, I obviously think that Skatox has the best description.
as for charge T1>charge T2> charge T3, you do the fingerswitch in the middle of a motion.
So maybe the best description would be: a typical change of fingers that occurs during a trick which not implied a change of motion according to the previous trick.
or a better equivalent (at least in a better english T_T) ... Because this description allows you to give a general definition of the concept and as a matter of fact, you can think about this idea and have some own developpement, I don't know if I'm really clear lol
Anyway I give my whole trust to Skatox Zombo and Sketching who are IMO those who have worked most on syntax naming. I gave you my ideas, good luck to you if you want to expand the idea, it's always an honor to help you in this task^^ -
Date: Wed, May 7 2008 00:57:21
zombo makes a good point...
i do think we should assign this a name, but to classify it as a trick?
doing so would turn the sonic into some sort of hybrid/combo, wouldnt it?
charge 0.5 23 > switch 23-13 > charge 0.5 13 > switch 13-12
just an interesting note.
i still think we should name it, but maybe not consider it an actual trick...?
btw didn't eso make some 'magic reset' in his progress video? i think that involved this -
Date: Wed, May 7 2008 07:09:05QUOTEzombo makes a good point...
i do think we should assign this a name, but to classify it as a trick?
doing so would turn the sonic into some sort of hybrid/combo, wouldnt it?
charge 0.5 23 > switch 23-13 > charge 0.5 13 > switch 13-12
just an interesting note.
i still think we should name it, but maybe not consider it an actual trick...?
btw didn't eso make some 'magic reset' in his progress video? i think that involved this
you are totally right but the switch would only be for hybrid naming that we can't name for the moment.
a sonic is definitely a trick, no deal about it.
I do think, as well as you, that it's not a trick, it's more a convenient way to name some hybrids and linkages
to be as meaningful in breakdown as it can... -
Date: Wed, May 7 2008 16:42:31QUOTE (Zombo @ May 7 2008, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the first time Fratleym showed me this concept, we somewhat agreed that it was more of a "style" than a definite concept.
has that changed? I'm not convinced it can be part of a trick, but more liek a general style. You can do sonics see-saw as well.
fratleym has access to the RD he should explain himsefl
well, it isn't really a part of any consistant trick, it's a linkage...Like when you do a charge T2 after a charge T1, you do no trick between the charges, but yet the fingerslot in which you have your pen is modified...here comes the switch.
it can easily be used for style during a trick, or between two tricks, but even if you intend to place it as a style effect, it somewhat alters the breakdown of your combo, in most cases. It doesn't add any new trick, but allows a linkages that couldn't be done without fingerswitch...I guess charge T1 > charge T2 is a very good example to understand that.
Now, I'm not prenteding to set it up as a heavy convention on namings, I'd like to gather arguments around that matter and see if we're more likely to theorize this or not...
When I talked about "implicit fingerswitching", I was thinking of keeping a simple notation ( NO notation for a fingerswitch done between two tricks ) but still having a theory on the concept, which explains why we do this. I'm not sure I'm clear. Oh well.
I agree with Shadowserpant And with Fratleym too : I'm awesome 
Shadowserpant, about the sonic, you can't describe it like this charge 0.5 23 > switch 23-13 > charge 0.5 13 > switch 13-12 because the different parts in your breakdown are done at same time...you don't do one charge, then a switch, then one charge, you do a charge with a switch inside, which is one only trick...It would be a classical hybrid if it involved only tricks, but if we don't consider switch as a trick, the current naming conventions aren't sufficient to breakdown the Sonic. Anyway, the Sonic is a trick that can't be broken down any further. Is this an hybrid, well I guess it could be an hybrid with a switch, but really, we're lacking of definitions in those very fundamental matters... That's the perefect time to set up the definition of a trick, I guess ^^. -
Date: Wed, May 7 2008 17:04:04
Well, before you released your first video about "Fingerswitching" frat, when discussing these kind of tricks with Ceedgee we just referred to them as "Tipped" tricks, and thought it was cool to include a small "Tipped" part in combos. Like Zombo wrote, regular Sonics can just as well be performed this way. Basically, you just remove any rotation the trick should have.
If you try to break down a combo with fingerswitchings I'm pretty sure you could define most of them as being things like "Inv Sonic Switch" or whatever you want to call it. Doing a good looking Inv Sonic from say 23 up to the Thumb and then intercept it with some other trick can be pretty hard though, and so making it a switch instead comes pretty naturally. -
Date: Mon, Jun 16 2008 23:21:10
I thought about this yesterday and was just reminded of it...
The fundamental tricks are the ones that form a basis from which other tricks are built further reading.
If this is indeed the case, then why is Wiper not a fundamental trick? It is of a different spin type to the other fundamentals and leads to the entire infinity family and combos can be formed from it by mixing for example, Thumbaround with Wiper to do the combo known as cardioid... -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 00:09:53
Your definition of a fundamental is somewhat incorrect.
Regarding to why the Wiper is not a fundamental -QUOTE (Niffe @ Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:31 pm)...the fundamentals are the tricks that we [NC] recommend the newcomers to start out with. We want the newcomers to learn doing impressive tricks as fast as possible. That's a reason for why the Pass is not appro[p]riate. No one can impress anybody with a single Pass - same with the Wiper.
He did also say,QUOTE (Niffe @ Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:31 pm)I wont say anything about the Infinity. We will take your thoughts into consideration.
when addressing a debate of whether to include Infinity as a fundamental.
---
Isn't Shadow just a hybrid of Sonic ~ TopSpin ~ Sonic? And isn't ThumbSpin just a hybrid of ThumbAround ~ ThumbSpin ~ ThumbAround? -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 00:39:13QUOTE (Fresh @ Jun 16 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I thought about this yesterday and was just reminded of it...
The fundamental tricks are the ones that form a basis from which other tricks are built further reading.
If this is indeed the case, then why is Wiper not a fundamental trick? It is of a different spin type to the other fundamentals and leads to the entire infinity family and combos can be formed from it by mixing for example, Thumbaround with Wiper to do the combo known as cardioid...
that's not quite true,
you must also take into account the concept of "utility trick".
fundamentals are not necessarily the most basic (indivisible) unit of PS. However, utility tricks always are. -
Date: Tue, Jun 17 2008 02:27:10
Check out the infinity thread in the fundementals section Fresh
-
Date: Fri, Jul 18 2008 21:51:24
Going off of the Release/Riser article discussion thread, what if we expand "Pop" to include aerial tricks where the pen does not move around any part of the finger/hand/whatever. The only push is that which launches the pen up into the air. The currently discussed combo by bonkura could be TA ~ Index Pop.
Edit: we could go with Bounce instead. Either way. The definition could be purposefully general, no specific movement/orientation of the pen/hand/body part/etc... would be defined besides a movement that simply launches the pen into the air. TA ~ Index Bounce? -
Date: Sat, Jul 19 2008 01:34:00
....sounds ok to me
i kinda like pop tho -
Date: Sat, Jul 19 2008 11:28:23
Pop seems about right.
I thought that bounce was used to describe allowing an aerial basically to hit you before catching it. -
Date: Sat, Jul 19 2008 19:36:54
I was more a fan of bump myself, I think it explains the motion better, of "bumping" the pen with your finger.
-
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 01:59:52
what do you guys think of abolishing sonic clip
so that sonic clip 23-12 = sonic 2.0 23-12 -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 02:10:48QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 23 2008, 02:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>what do you guys think of abolishing sonic clip
so that sonic clip 23-12 = sonic 2.0 23-12
I don't like the idea at all.
-
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 02:19:32
i was thinking it might be rejected, but idk it makes sense to me...
i was thinking alot about the nature of sonics and such
it just made sense to me -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 03:45:01
It has more than one push, it makes more sense for it to stay as a hybrid
-
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 04:26:44
it kinda goes along with what i said before about fingerswitching
i feel that the sonic is in a sense a hybrid
eh, i know pretty much everyone is gonna shoot me down on this one
i feel that... the charge in the sonic clip doesnt interrupt a sonic, it just kinda continues it -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 15:42:56
There is still more than one push going on in Sonic Clip, the single Sonic push followed by the ongoing Charge push.
-
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 21:43:20
Ok so um after checking out the Riser and Release definition thread I decided to make a video on why "Bump" is an appropriate name for things like bonkura's TA to Air. I give several examples all with a thrilling conclusion
. Just sharing my thoughts really. -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 22:35:52
Those tricks you name as 'Palm and Backhand 'bumps'' are actually already named as 'Palm Bounce' and 'Backhand Bounce' respectively. I think this is written on the wiki so sounds like you don't read this.
Link -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 23:28:03
damn I thought they were unoffical names, oh well I'm still pushing for Index bump
-
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 23:31:50
Well if anything it would surely have to be 'bounce' as this fits in with current naming conventions.
Why would you push for something that is extra and unneccesary? -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 23:33:07QUOTE (Mats @ Jul 23 2008, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well if anything it would surely have to be 'bounce' as this fits in with current naming conventions.
Why would you push for something that is extra and unneccesary?
Thats really what I meant to say, >_< time to make a new video -
Date: Mon, Aug 25 2008 01:39:05
We've been seeing a lot more fingerless tricks that don't actually involve the pen moving around the hand, but rather the hand moving pen remaining stationary relative to the hand. A few examples:
http://www.dailymotion.com/pyralux/video/9665964
The pen stays against the palm while the hand moves from palm-up to palm-down to palm-vertical.
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=EET9uu8FbW8
I only saw this one for the first time today. Even though I still can't figure out how to do it, I think it's just another case of the hand moving around the pen.
I thought we might want to start brainstorming on how to name tricks like these. -
Date: Mon, Aug 25 2008 18:30:15
check the "isolation" thread
-
Date: Fri, Nov 7 2008 03:54:07
why is the first trick in infinity a wiper rev?
why not wiper? -
Date: Mon, Feb 9 2009 03:23:38
it has been brought to my attention that FPSB have started a project on notation for modding.
they watn to create new terms for common modding parts/techniques to improve understanding and facilitate writing.
for instance:
undergrip => the body of the pen which is underneath a grip
example: (in an modding tutorial) "lime the 4 sections of the undergrip" instead of "lime the 4 sections of the body which was under the grip you just removed"
insertip => any cap where a tip can be inserted
example use: metallic mods always possesses insertips.
folded clip: denotes a clip folded in 2, used for certain tricks like L spin. Rarely seen though.
ruffle: the little bump after the tip
by extension: inktip and inkruffle
in addition to creating new terms, it'd be nie to compile old terms we know in a list -
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2009 05:58:34
Is that like really necessary? I mean if you explain how to make the pen with good pictures... what's the use of naming it something else?
-
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2009 07:52:18
i like it, i think some terms are too mistakable
like, idk, backcap
even tip can sometimes be mistaken, it depends on the case
a uniform name policy would help imo -
Date: Tue, Feb 10 2009 14:29:07QUOTE (sangara @ Feb 10 2009, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Is that like really necessary? I mean if you explain how to make the pen with good pictures... what's the use of naming it something else?
suppose someone needs help modding something so he describes his problem or someone gives him help and describes what he needs to do -
Date: Wed, Feb 11 2009 01:04:40
I still don't see how a picture doesn't fix the problem.
-
Date: Wed, Feb 11 2009 01:27:35QUOTE (sangara @ Feb 10 2009, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I still don't see how a picture doesn't fix the problem.
you're too lazy/don't have the time to make a picture
to make a picture you need:
- the material (not trivial if you have to explain a particular modding step and u only have completed mods)
- the camera
- the editing
it's like sometimes we simply use words to discuss pen spinning tricks, not just videos, if we could do the same with mods, wouldnt it be more convienent. -
Date: Fri, Oct 16 2009 19:38:15
Recovery of my old post:
I have many things to talk about:
1- Backhand Spin / Copter Spin
We have the Palmspin trick, so why we don't have a Backhand Spin one? It's the same but "inversed".
It can be useful, for example when doing a "backhand spin" with the other hand impulsion. Or, for example, to describe a Shadow Riser ~> "backhand spin" (or maybe that has to be named as Shadow Riser ~ Shadow?). Same for a Bakriser ~> "backhand spin reverse" (or Bakriser ~ Shadow Reverse).
Then, use the term Copter Spin when performing a "backhand spin" on B, near the wrist, but not on it. If we use the term "backhand spin", then we could specify when is done on B12, B34, B1234, B... That would show where the pen is spinning.
Examples:
Backhand Spin B23-12 (done with hand impulsion)
Shadow Riser 12-12 ~> Backhand Spin B12-12
Bakriser ~> Bakchand Spin Reverse B23-23
Backhand Spin B-TF (that could be the Copter Spin with hand impulsion)
2- Bakspin
Well, if we have a Indexaround and a Indexspin, why don't we have a Backaround and a Bakspin?
Bak 2.5 sounds a bit confusing when you don't know it, it seems it's describind the times the pen goes around a finger, not the total spins (talking about around and top spin parts).
3- Neobak
Can't we simply name a Neobackaround as a Fingerless Shadow Reverse? A Neobak is not an around. There exists the Fingerless Shadow Rev TF-XX, why not to have Fl Shadow Rev 12-34, 23-23, etc.
4- Halftap / Fulltap
Why the same trick with different revolutions changes the name? Well, similar happens with TA/TS, but that are different tricks, they have different spin types. So why not to have Halftap 1.0, Halftap Rev 1.5... (though the name is a bit nonsense). Then, maybe better to find another name?
5- Palmspin / Sidespin
Two videos to show my point:
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDrRXsrVEL8
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lk1gwGcRyc
The first is clearly (to any spinner) a Palmspin, but a lot of spinners talk about the second as a Side Spin.
IMO, are the same tricks: Palmspin. In the second video, we can see the pen spinning on the metacarpal related to the thumb. The fingers have phalanxes, and the palm metacarpals. So it's obvious the pen is not spinning on the thumb, so we can't call that a Side Spin IMO.
6- Expanded notation
Why not to add W (Wrist) , H (Hand), A (Arm) and E (Elbow) to the expanded trick notation?
7- Various tricks
It was said we should revise the tricks on this thread, I don't know if this was already done.
- "Air Clap" - Have no ideas, I always thought that was new.
- "Swing" - I would describe that as Wiper 11' (according the 1P2H we are developing). What about the direction? It's Normal or Reverse? Because for one hand is a Wiper Normal, and for the other is Reverse. We should determinate if the Wiper on that trick is Normal or Reverse (so the same thing happens with other tricks like Charge 11’, Triangle Pass TT’1…).
Note: this is not the “Lever†trick from Lindor that was later changed to Swing.
- "Pen around"- That's difficult, I think first we have to work on 2P1H notation for that.
- "Pull spin concept"- That could be an example of what I was saying on point 1.
Also, there are other tricks that should be revised:
- Quadrangle Pass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fAAeo4sivw
It's that a Triangle Pass T123? I don't know, because it seems it works on a different way.
- aerial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RyZB3AJXQc
Something new? It works as a "fingerless bakflip T1-T1". It can be performed as Continuous and Harmonic.
8- Isolation
Why not to make official the Isolation as a modifier? Examples:
Isolated Triangle Pass T12
Isolated Thumbaround Reverse T1-T2
9- Hand position
What about notating the hand position as a modifier? Then we can officially name
the palm side, palm up, palm down and back side in a breakdown (PS, PU, PD, BS abreviations?).
10- Tipped Sonic
The NC didn’t agreed on the http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=7945"" target="_blank">Tipped Sonic notation, so should we continue that discussion? -
Date: Sun, Jan 24 2010 22:40:56
Also, renaming the hierarchy of tricks to start off with spinning manipulation, isolation manipulation (point manipulation? still manipulation? illusion manipulation?), and spinless manipulation (freehand manipulation), I think this would encourage further development in tricks under all of these categories.
Alternative to text notation.
I also believe adding many modifiers would further build upon a system which is already realitivly cluttered. With penspinning I think a notation is required which encompasses the anatomy of the hand which may also include a form of shorthand similar to current text notation which could be used to describe all tricks through spatial description (applies to advanced hybrids in which the timing of the change between tricks would better be described visually or through a differen't sort of notation... ( as with spinless and isolation manipulations often require more detail than just the name of the "trick" and as penspinning is further developing often times the name of spinning tricks alone is not enough without somewhat cluttered modifiers...)
To go along further with this, an additional line of notation perhaps instead of modifiers, and additional line could be used to depict hand movement and position (styles could be described as some sort of common hand movement along with a trick)
And for synchronism Ps an an additional line depicting the outline or ups and downs of the music/ beat to describe or justify the pens location or trick, this line would be used to describe speed and direction if not music.
So it would be a three line system a "formal notation".
1st line hybrid and tricks This would be the classic text notation used today.
2nd line hand position/ hand movement/ isolation and spinless manips ( this would be in regards spatially and in 3 dimensions, use of arrows? seems as if it would need some alternative symbol system besides arrows to describe forwards and backwards motion from the viewer. This would start with a quick notation of the camera or presentation angle of the spinner and all notations afterwords would be in regards from the "original" location at first and each one before. This would also be the place for finger location. aka 12, 23-34.
3rd line direction speed and music. ( in regards to the one before, alternatively this notation could be assigned a number system) Spinning by metronome bpm, an few classic music notations or words etc.
each line formatted in such a way that is corresponds to the one above.
These three lines or deviation of, could be dubbed formal notation where as the one line method with modifiers would be freehand or quick notation...
A small example of what this may look like. but defenatly needs further development.
UR = Upper right corner.
0 = Fingerless
R = Reverse
S = Side
U= Up
*<- refers to a notation of the hand, when along side carrots ^>^> --- = in the third and first line denotes the space between tricks which allows extra notation upon the second line.
#<- refers to a notation of the arm
@<- refers to other bodily notations
-------------TA-->----TA--->--------MA--->------TA--->------Bak-->---Bak--->---Bak->--Bak-->------TA
UR S*12-t-12,_R12-t-12,_<^*23-2-12,_0R12-1-12_ S*12-1-12_ 23-2-23_34-3-34_ 34-4-34_U*012-t-12_S*_^v>>^
-----00000000-00000000------1234321---00000000---77777777-7777777-7777777-7788899---000033344445555321
numbers = relative speed.
-(symbol)- <- refers to what the pen is spinning over.
The bottom two lines towards the end is detonating a somewhat mechanical and awkward hand flourish.
This didn't turn out quite correctly due to the use of - to denote spaces if I were to create another example I would probably use _ which would more adequately space out the tricks sot hey fit each line...
In the perfect world a spinner would look at the second line and peripheral vision would allow him to copy this combo smoothly. =]
I have also been working on a visual notation in which a completely different written notation would be used which would represent all tricks through visual translation from line to line to represent finger and rotation direction. At this time It seems unnessarily complicated and I think the three line suggestion above would suffice just as well.
Also, perhaps a comprehensive guide of naming tricks so if text notation is to be continued there is a comprehensive updated guide that would inform and standardize notation.
"Alternative notation regarding spinless and isolation tricks?
This may not be necessary but a form of spatial notation and other alternative or additional notations that would be helpful in bringing spinless and isolation type tricks into notation.
symbols like < > ^ and v to describe hand movement (expanded upon) to be used to be able to describe all spinless tricks through notation for use additional to the conventional naming and notation system. (further explored in the naming comitee?)"
Post from T and C. -
Date: Thu, Feb 11 2010 14:07:42
List of all tricks version 1.2. Here is a list of all changes since version 1: http://www.mediafire.com/?mygwqyzeu2j
QUOTEChange log - List of all tricks 1.1
Added i-Sonics
Added Passes
Fixed some formatting
Added backarounds
v1.2
Added wipers
Added notes
Added basketball spin
Added fingerpass as 'combo considered as fundamental trick'.
Misc spin type (at the bottom) - For miscellanous tricks that don't seem fit into one spin type. Will be
put into a spin type if it's made clear that they can fit into one.
Added bounces into misc spin types.
Added 'rolls' - Check - Think NC decided on new name (free-spin?)
Future additions? - Links to appropriate upsb wiki pages.
Spiderspins
Shadows
backhand tracer
magic?
It would be really great if some of you guys can have a read through this spreadsheet and just reply below with missing tricks (most important!), incorrect naming and formatting issues as well as ideas for future additions etc. Please please DO NOT edit this file yourself because we will all get lost with what changes have been made. REPLY TO THIS POST with what is is missing and I WILL UPDATE THE LIST AND ADD THE CHANGES TO THE CHANGE LOG. Eventually, a system should be in place in which there is a team (probably the Naming Committee) who will take suggestions for changes and updates and then the team will impliment the changes updating the change log so everyone knows what's happening both within the team and outside of it and no confusion happens. New versions will have to be approved by the NC before release to ensure that this list remains to a decent standard. A set of past versions will be kept so that we can restore to any point in time in case a huge error is made and missed for several versions.
I will try to release the final version in several ways. Might need some help from you guys in making some of these if anyone wants to put their hand up? Probably in March sometime. The several ways:
As a PDF file - With contents so you can jump to certain places (maybe jump to spin type?)
As a plain txt file - Which anyone can open and edit, with readable formatting
As HTML - That looks nice and more readable
As a spreadsheet - This seems to be the easiest way to update and maintain a file like this.
On the UPSB wiki - With links to the appropriate pages in the wiki, for example, all fingerarounds link to the fingeraround tutorial page.
Any requests, with reasons, for any other versions to be made? Or should less versions be made?
I'm going to release this, at whatever stage it is in, sometime in March or early April as I won't have as much time to work on it for 6 months or so, although I will perhaps get some work done on it. It should be the most complete list out there by then, if it is not already, at least in English.
Thoughts? -
Date: Thu, Feb 11 2010 16:53:08
looks good
it would really help my combo generator if you could make one version in my format
http://www.upsb.info/gen/combo-generator/data/base.txt -
Date: Sat, Feb 13 2010 10:47:56QUOTE (Zombo @ Feb 11 2010, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>looks good
it would really help my combo generator if you could make one version in my format
http://www.upsb.info/gen/combo-generator/data/base.txt
Just looked at the format yesterday. Will do it when the release in March goes out.
-
Date: Fri, Feb 19 2010 20:00:04
Can I start a new topic for this, or will people in NC keep track of the current 'Trick book' topic?
-
Date: Fri, Feb 19 2010 21:22:51
sure
-
Date: Tue, Mar 2 2010 02:14:47
Formal mod naming?....
Maybe a formula which would go along with the mod to kind of give people an idea of whats in it, abnd that everyone uses so oit's not jsut a bunch of eltters but something you can say this mod is so and so because it has this this and this?
Ummm so I suggest this, however this is made right now so maybe someone can make something much better
First 2 letters of pen BODY manufacturer/Pen name, if it has multiple words for the name then the first word/ number of pens used/double capped DC or single capped SC or if N/A Na
So rsvpmx would be
Persvp2sc
hmm? -
Date: Tue, Mar 2 2010 02:23:14
yep look here: http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showt...417&hl=tree
the idea was to generate a "hash value" for each mod. if you compare the hash values of each mods, you could get an idea how similar they are. -
Date: Fri, Mar 5 2010 16:39:14
Alright guys, version 1.7 is going to be the LAST version of the trick book (find the topic in advanced tricks, it's a staff pick) and will be the final release of this trick book (until at least October). Any requests/suggestions for anything you want in it? Maybe a difficulty (rough) of each trick or something like that? Suggested orders for learning? Anything missing you want added in?
Btw, if you're having difficulty opening the file - The extension is .xlr if you can't open it change the extension to .xls and you can use Microsoft Excel to view it. -
Date: Sat, Mar 6 2010 23:49:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUCaj2QgT44&feature=sub
would this be considered inverse bust? -
Date: Sat, Mar 6 2010 23:56:24
No it's going int the wrong direction an inverse trick is going in the same rotational direction but on the opposite side, an inverse bust would be like a normal bust but start and end on the outside of the index finger rather than the inside that is not inverse because A: it is not the same direction and B: it is not on the right side of the finger.
The defeinition of inverse gets very fuzzy when we discuss fingerless tricks and shouldn't even apply to fingerless tricks like busts imo. As fingerless inverse tricks are pretty much impossible... ( thats not to be said they can't be done, just insanely difficult because many would involve insane stalls...for ex an invers fl ta would require you start with the pen on the back of your thumb and end up with the pen stalled on the back of your thumb...or your fingers bent back in some insane way to to keep the pen on the back of your thumb...( nails facing inwards) -
Date: Fri, Jun 11 2010 20:47:03
I just saw this wikipedia article...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen_Tricks
What?... =_=
/fixd