UPSB v3
Philosophy / Nature vs Nurture
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Date: Mon, Mar 3 2008 18:11:20
This is a reformulation of stroud's topic: http://www.upsb.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=4331
The question is whether it is more important to be born with a talent for PS or if it is more important to practice PS.
The follow-up question is if to become a good spinning you need ONLY practice or ONLY talent.
In other words, can one become the best spinner in the world without any (or much) practice and can one become the best spinner in the world without any talent or predisposition to PS. -
Date: Mon, Mar 3 2008 18:26:10
I think it has to be both.
I am a steadfast believer that genius is mastered failures. That is, practice is the whetstone that resharpens the blade that is talent. I believe that no matter how genius/talented you are, if you don't practice, your blade will dull over time. Practice also allows one to have a wider world view in, say in this case, penspinning. Sure, one may have the nimblest/most dexterous fingers, but without the appropriate training, this talent will be nothing but a raw unpolished potential.
If you have watched this anime, Slamdunk, you'll know that Sakuragi Hanamichi believes in hard work more than talent
Just my 2 charges
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Date: Mon, Mar 3 2008 19:46:35
The answer is still nurture. There is no such thing as a "pen spinning" gene.
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Date: Mon, Mar 3 2008 21:12:48
I agree with Tialys. You are not born bieng able to pen spin. Pen Spinning is something that you stumble across and learn more. The more hard work you put in, the better you will become.
There is only one exception to this: Bonkura. He obviously came out of the womb spinning a pen. -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 01:06:09QUOTE (nolan @ Mar 3 2008, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There is only one exception to this: Bonkura. He obviously came out of the womb spinning a pen.
lol, I can imagine him breaking off a piece of his mom's organ to spin and every time he dropped it, his mom thought it was him kicking. -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 01:09:10
If someone practices for 10 hours a day for 10 years, they will beat anyone and everyone, no matter how talented they might be.
Obviously this one is nurture... -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 01:13:44
i think that it is litle bits of talent and lots and lots of practice
which means it's a skill
so i chose nurture:) -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 03:37:43
nothing ever comes easy its all hard work
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Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 03:45:50
Yeah Nurture is what I think is the BEST possible answer.
It's like Rock Lee, he can't to genjutsu or jujitsu or w/e it's called, but he works hard and is still an amazing fighter due to that.
Perhaps you're really bad at Fingerarounds and just simply can't do them (almost like me
)
You can make combos without it. -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 03:46:01
I think its obvious that hard work and determination can beat talent.
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Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 04:24:38QUOTE (Tialys @ Mar 4 2008, 03:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There is no such thing as a "pen spinning" gene.
Agree with that.
And I don't think Bonkura's parent know how to spin pens. So where do that kind of genes come from? -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 05:54:07QUOTE (Missle_Z @ Mar 3 2008, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yeah Nurture is what I think is the BEST possible answer.
It's like Rock Lee, he can't to genjutsu or jujitsu or w/e it's called, but he works hard and is still an amazing fighter due to that.
Perhaps you're really bad at Fingerarounds and just simply can't do them (almost like me)
You can make combos without it.
but rock lee still suck compare to the gived ones -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 10:15:18QUOTE (Missle_Z @ Mar 4 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yeah Nurture is what I think is the BEST possible answer.
It's like Rock Lee, he can't to genjutsu or jujitsu or w/e it's called, but he works hard and is still an amazing fighter due to that.
that doesn't support your answer properly. Sasuke is stronger than Rock Lee.
no matter how talented you are, you still need to practice for pen spinning. there is noone on earth afaik who could do 'bakfall' without any pratice just because they are so talented. thats what i like about it. each person's pen spinning level is decided by the amount of time you practiced.
The only true talent in pen spinning is the your own determination to practice.
i don't agree bonkura had the pen spinning genes etc. he was made a great pen spinner by practicing. im pretty sure that bonkura didn't just randomly pick up a pen one day and could do all the tricks. he practiced. -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 14:30:05
They are depending on eachother... It is almost like a simple linear function from school...
Practice x Talent = Skills
Talent being a constant, and Practice being a variable...
If you had no practice, but a lot of talent, you still wont have any skills... Because nobody has ever been able to do any tricks with out some kind of practice...
And if you had no talent whatsoever, and practiced all the time you still wouldnt get any skills... -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 19:06:02QUOTE (WhiteFang @ Mar 4 2008, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sasuke is stronger than Rock Lee.
Rock Lee is rly fast, but I agree with you Sasuke can tear him to peaces
Back to the topic:
Well I assume that you need some talent, take japan ppl. They have talent for everything xD. But yes, you cant just grab a pencil and start spinnin even if u havent seen it before. -
Date: Tue, Mar 4 2008 21:29:55QUOTE (Susho @ Mar 4 2008, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>take japan ppl. They have talent for everything
No. They just focus more on the things they want to achieve. Just about anybody has that same capacity.
For the poll, my answer is nurture that's more important. I believe that talent (aptitude is a better word) can only take you so far. -
Date: Wed, Mar 5 2008 00:21:34
yeahh..like eso was saying, talent can only take a person to a certain point and without motivation to continue (which means practice) they won't
so they're stuck at that point
if they do get past that boundary though, it'll be because of practice--not their original talent
people who practice to get it will also feel much more satisfied after doign so imo
people who have talent will be able to do it faster, perhaps, but wont' be able to continue if they just give up when they need to practice and aren't used to practicing -
Date: Wed, Mar 5 2008 02:07:34QUOTE (Eso @ Mar 4 2008, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For the poll, my answer is nurture that's more important. I believe that talent (aptitude is a better word) can only take you so far.
you are right, but what about the opposite?
does hard work can only take you so far?
meaning to become the #1 spinner of the world, you need both. you can't rely on hard work alone. -
Date: Wed, Mar 5 2008 02:21:52QUOTE (Zombo @ Mar 4 2008, 09:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>you are right, but what about the opposite?
does hard work can only take you so far?
meaning to become the #1 spinner of the world, you need both. you can't rely on hard work alone.
I whole heartedly agree! I'm a living example of this. I agree that you must have some aptitude in spinning in order to even rise. Now I wonder, is aptitude something innate or is it something that can be built upon?
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Date: Wed, Mar 5 2008 02:41:18QUOTE (Eso @ Mar 4 2008, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I whole heartedly agree! I'm a living example of this. I agree that you must have some aptitude in spinning in order to even rise. Now I wonder, is aptitude something innate or is it something that can be built upon?
arent you just reformulating the original question? if aptitude could be built upon, then it means you could be the best using only hard work.
of course, as humans, we tend to think that it's easier to accept lack of effort than lack of talent. If you lack talent, you can't do anything about it, if you lack effort, you can always practice more.
So ppl who think they have worked their hardest with little result may think that they still have to work even harder. -
Date: Sun, Mar 9 2008 15:28:05
nurture definitely. i don't see how could one be talented for PSing, one my be good at it and invent new tricks and see more potential in it and use it differently than someone else, but that isn't talent. i think it's just about training, of course some would have to train less, some more, but it's always like that.
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Date: Sun, Mar 9 2008 17:36:59
I don't believe someone without any "talent" in penspinning can become the top penspinner in the world through practice alone. It's not in the genes, but peoples hands are different, how they can move the fingers, etc. Some things can be trained up more easily for some people, and not as easily for others.
I guess one could put it this way; people without any talent could become the best penspinners in the world, but since people with better conditions would have an easier time getting that good, the people who base their penspinning skills solely on practice wouldn't become the best in the world. -
Date: Sun, Mar 9 2008 17:51:43
hmmm....i think this is sort of a one sided question as it is very much possible to be a naturally athletic athlete, but is there any way to be a naturally good penspinner, besides like, understanding the physics of the pen motion or having like double joints on ALL your fingers?
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Date: Mon, Mar 10 2008 02:50:04
Well I think it depends on practise. Now that maotivation to practise is up to the person, or chance. I mean I don't know how to make yourself WANT to practise if you don't want to in the first place. So I think how much you'll practise is up to nature. With this I'll say nature only beeacse it will determine how much nurture will happen. In that sense they are both important for becoming a good penspinner.
( I am new these messege borad things and it won't let me vote for some reason) -
Date: Mon, Mar 10 2008 13:59:34
I totally think that anyone can spin well with persistence and lots of practice.
But for me at least, I'm more inclined (I guess you could say) with skill toys like yo-yo, juggling, unicycle, and now PSing. -
Date: Wed, Mar 12 2008 12:45:47
i voted nurture because i tried hard to become better than this dude at my school
and it worked -
Date: Tue, Oct 28 2008 11:17:55
I think nurture...but i may have my doughts...
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Date: Wed, Nov 12 2008 23:44:45
I'd say you nurture. You can't do anything without practice. But you could be born with an advantage such as extremely flexible hands, but that can only take you as far as you are willing to work. the only thing it will do for you is give you a headstart, but work is still necessary
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Date: Thu, Nov 20 2008 00:38:08
Nurture. theres no such thing as being talented in psing from the beginning.
its all about practice -
Date: Fri, Nov 28 2008 20:35:16
I am completely on the side of practing. Because a famouse writer has said:"At the beginnig every people is an unwritten paper". That mean[s at the beginnig the people haven't any skills. And only with time and learning they gain skills.
If someone is enraptured with something than he/she wil often learn for this "something", and so he/she will with time and hard working become a pro in this "something" and become much better then others who are less interested of this "something". In pen spinnig is just so .
So this is my thinking: THE MORE YOU LIKE PEN SPINNIG THE BETTER PEN SPINNER YOU ARE
philosophizing by mett -
Date: Fri, Nov 28 2008 22:21:06QUOTE (Mett @ Nov 28 2008, 01:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So this is my thinking: THE MORE YOU LIKE PEN SPINNIG THE BETTER PEN SPINNER YOU ARE
philosophizing by mett[/size]
lol not necessarily. u can be a penspinning fanatic and not be a good spinner
its more like "the more you practice the better spinner you are" -
Date: Sat, Nov 29 2008 13:22:48QUOTE (SJ. @ Nov 29 2008, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>lol not necessarily. u can be a penspinning fanatic and not be a good spinner
its more like "the more you practice the better spinner you are"
If someon is a pen spinning fanatic then he will train until he will get mad. -
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 00:15:40
I'd say nuture is most important. However, I think someone might have a genetic predisposition that makes it easier for them to nuture this talent. Whether they choose to practice or not would be up to them though.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 02:49:05QUOTE (Susho @ Mar 5 2008, 03:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Rock Lee is rly fast, but I agree with you Sasuke can tear him to peaces
Back to the topic:
Well I assume that you need some talent, take japan ppl. They have talent for everything xD. But yes, you cant just grab a pencil and start spinnin even if u havent seen it before.
then how did the 1st spinner started to spin
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Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 05:14:35
I'd go with nuture. However, a person could have some kind of innate ability that would help them in pen spinning, but he or she couldn't be the best spinner just based on talent. They would still need to practice to make themselves better.
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Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 05:42:29QUOTE (loonwern93 @ Jan 29 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>then how did the 1st spinner started to spin
Very slowly, it took years for PS to develop from just simple TAs to what we are used to now. The first spinners had to come up with new concepts, until they could get enough people to be interested and get the hobby growing. It wasn't until PS started becoming known that what we consider "spinning" came into existence. The point is even the first spinners need lots of practice before they started spinning, much more than what upcoming spinners need now, with Eso's tutorials and other resources.
and lol at my post it was one I was a noob here and didn't know I needed 20 posts to vote XD -
Date: Fri, Jan 30 2009 15:05:45
Nurture, without practis you will be nothing in PS, but telent is good thing e. g. I learned TA pretty easy, but my priend cant get it for about month (he is practising only durning the school lesons)
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Date: Thu, Feb 5 2009 15:46:31
I think learning a PS technique is to know how your fingers actually execute the movement of the technique rather than you imitate the movement, and nurturing your fingers. So pretty neutral haha xD
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Date: Fri, Feb 27 2009 11:48:06
I think its nurture. But maybe Tek's little brother is nature: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NMsib5Plj4...re=channel_page
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Date: Fri, May 22 2009 12:23:09
so this is like which 1 is better????
anyway, for ME it is like a talent is not good enough w/o practice so like i chose both (even though i cant vote
) -
Date: Sat, May 23 2009 01:38:30
I'd prefer a little talent with practice. The reason why Bonkura got so good was because he practiced, right? but he may have had a gene for PSing
much better if practice, after all, talent comes out 1 in a million persons out there. -
Date: Thu, Jan 7 2010 01:30:19
This question is very one sided because unlike running or jumping you cant know what it is without practice, talent is only potential, how much of that potential you use is up to practice. Plus nature determines "nurture". So I think its more important to have talent, beacuse if you have enough, even though no one ever will, you could learn and invent every trick the first time you pick up a pen.
Question: If you dont know its psing is it still practice -
Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 20:07:49
I voted nature because genetics can affect your spinning alot. for example chubby fingers, short hands etc. also my mom told me asain people tend to have better motor skills. (Not trying to be racist at all just what she told me.). She thinks its because over the years many asains play piano, penspin etc. so over the centuries they have more nimble fingers which they pass on to their kids. (I dont know if its true, she just told me that). so i believe they both matter but nature is slightly more important.
EDIT: Once again I'm not trying to be racist and dont wanna be known as a racist asshole -
Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 20:11:23QUOTE (Kirby @ Jan 10 2010, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I voted nature because genetics can affect your spinning alot. for example chubby fingers, short hands etc. also my mom told me asain people tend to have better motor skills. (Not trying to be racist at all just what she told me.). She thinks its because over the years many asains play piano, penspin etc. so over the centuries they have more nimble fingers which they pass on to their kids. (I dont know if its true, she just told me that). so i believe they both matter but nature is slightly more important.
EDIT: Once again I'm not trying to be racist and dont wanna be known as a racist asshole
Having chubby fingers doesn't mean you can't spin well. There's bunch of spinners who have chubby fingers out there.
Same for short hands. And about Asians having better motor skils... just look at FPSB, GPC, and etc.
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Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 21:09:47QUOTE (SJ @ Jan 10 2010, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Having chubby fingers doesn't mean you can't spin well. There's bunch of spinners who have chubby fingers out there.
Same for short hands. And about Asians having better motor skils... just look at FPSB, GPC, and etc.
I said chubby fingers could affect spinning never said it was worse (maybe just a different look and style). and very good point about the other sommunities. my mom just told the motor skills thing and I thought it sorta made sense
EDIT: dont you agree size shape of hands and fingers will affect spinning? -
Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 21:11:45
Wellll, new time magazine talks about how genetics can be changed and such do to your environment so I really do think it's nurture.
BTW I'm pretty sure science has proven beyond any doubt and statititcs show there is no such thing as NATURAL talent there is natural advantage but that really doesn't mean anything when you look at the upper tiers of things like athletics and other competitive things.
It's generally assumed 10,000 hours is how much time you need (about 10 years of hard consistent practice) and not just mindless practice, development, is needed to become a high level competitor or like fluent at what you do. As no penspinners have reached that time yet it will be interesting to see what happens in the next 5 years and how penspinning develops as we become "masterfull" in our skill.
I had a whole thread about it and there are a wide variety of books about it and studies done which pretty much prove beyond a doubt that really "talent" doesnt mean shit =\.
it boils down to Luck, practice, and environment. -
Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 21:52:03QUOTE (Kirby @ Jan 10 2010, 01:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I said chubby fingers could affect spinning never said it was worse (maybe just a different look and style). and very good point about the other sommunities. my mom just told the motor skills thing and I thought it sorta made sense
EDIT: dont you agree size shape of hands and fingers will affect spinning?
Oh, style-wise, it does make a difference for sure.
size and shape of hands and fingers might affect spinning but with practice, one can overcome it.
Nate has small hands, but hes good. Vic has gigantic hands, but hes good.
Bao0 has chubby hands, but hes good. etc
@EoL
what do you mean "luck"? -
Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 22:11:24
You need to have the right opportunities 10,000 hours is A LOT of time and there takes a lot of work and circumstances for you to get the "right" kind of practice.
for ex Bill Gates only got to work on computers because there happened to be so many lucky chances for him. Given different circumstances he may have accumulated 10,000 hours but it was due to "luck" that he managed to become help develop one of the great computer monopolies... = \ -
Date: Sun, Jan 10 2010 22:40:55
So it's basically talent vs experience. I dun think that ANYBODY can pull of a decent 10 sec combo right off the bat, so i'll go with nurture
