UPSB v3
Philosophy / does a pen really exist?
Metaphysics?
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Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 16:27:56
does a pen really exist? This topic was locked but i was wondering why. I thought metaphysics was a philosophy...and this is in the philosophy forum. This seems like a pretty good topic and could start up some good Matrix style PS discussion.
The red or the blue pill man, its your choice. -
Date: Tue, Apr 8 2008 17:01:37
I read something along the lines of this. The past only exists in our memories therefore it is not real, and the future can only exist in our plans therefore it is not real. Since our brains take a while to form mental images of what we perceive, all of our perceptions of things are in the past and not real. With this logic our perception of pens isn't real because what we perceive of the pen is already in the past.
I haven't read very much into metaphysics, but I think it can make an interesting conversation. It is near impossible to prove any of it, but it can be fun to think about.
By the way I would eat the Red and the blue pill -
Date: Fri, Apr 11 2008 15:05:43
Does the pen really exist?
I'm going to say it both does and doesn't exist at the same time, because, as we all know, until something is observed, it exists in all possible states. Therefore, while we observe the pen, it exists, while we are not there to observe it, it both does and doesn't.
And I would take the red pill and the blue pill, crush them both up and snort them. -
Date: Fri, Apr 11 2008 16:11:09
IMO it exists if you have it, it ceases to exist when you break it.
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Date: Sat, Apr 12 2008 04:46:12
it's not a pen
it's a penmod
which exists because life exists and everything in it and i'm not getting into philosophical crap because i'm not in the mood
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Date: Sat, Apr 12 2008 16:58:32QUOTE (awsome @ Apr 8 2008, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I read something along the lines of this. The past only exists in our memories therefore it is not real, and the future can only exist in our plans therefore it is not real. Since our brains take a while to form mental images of what we perceive, all of our perceptions of things are in the past and not real. With this logic our perception of pens isn't real because what we perceive of the pen is already in the past.
I haven't read very much into metaphysics, but I think it can make an interesting conversation. It is near impossible to prove any of it, but it can be fun to think about.
By the way I would eat the Red and the blue pill
WIN
ive never heard of metaphysics
im gonna have to look into this -
Date: Sat, Apr 12 2008 17:04:25QUOTE (awsome @ Apr 8 2008, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I read something along the lines of this. The past only exists in our memories therefore it is not real, and the future can only exist in our plans therefore it is not real. Since our brains take a while to form mental images of what we perceive, all of our perceptions of things are in the past and not real. With this logic our perception of pens isn't real because what we perceive of the pen is already in the past.
I haven't read very much into metaphysics, but I think it can make an interesting conversation. It is near impossible to prove any of it, but it can be fun to think about.
By the way I would eat the Red and the blue pill
Umm i really dont quite understand this topic but the statement of saying the past isnt real bothered me to much. R u saying that just because something is a memory its not real? What about history? What about the holocaust? just because those things are in the past doesnt mean it doesnt exist or hasnt existed. your logic is flawed. -
Date: Sat, Apr 12 2008 19:21:52
his idea is not that they didnt happen
but rather that what isnt happening at the exact present hasnt happened, or it has already passed and is gone forever
therefore not existing anymore
not existing=not happening now -
Date: Sat, Apr 12 2008 20:10:16
@ Samson iLLfOX is right, Something in the past did exist, not anymore, if it continued to exisit it would be in the present now. It's difficult to prove anything in this kind of subject. So any statement saying one way of thinking is wrong or better then another is pointless. Your free to think what you want on this sort of topic.
Edit: fixed a spelling mistake -
Date: Sun, Apr 13 2008 07:37:40QUOTE (Teddy @ Apr 12 2008, 05:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>it's not a pen
it's a penmod
which exists because life exists and everything in it and i'm not getting into philosophical crap because i'm not in the mood
Psh. Some of use are hardcore enough to use pens. -
Date: Sun, Apr 13 2008 22:43:33
I must say it exists... If it didn't, we wouldn't be here discussing its existance.
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Date: Mon, Apr 14 2008 14:11:40QUOTE (zblader @ Apr 13 2008, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I must say it exists... If it didn't, we wouldn't be here discussing its existance..
Doesn't the very fact we are even discussing its existance suggest that it is not certain it does exist?
Hmm. If the past isn't real, the pen may or may not have existed before we first saw it, there is no way to say. All that one can say is the pen exists 'now' as I look at it. However, as soon as I am not there, the pen might not exist anymore.
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Date: Mon, Apr 14 2008 15:46:57
If you believe a pen doesn't exist, then you have to acknowledge that all objects do not exist, even when you can verify them with your senses. If you believe things exist only as you're interacting with them, then you must also admit that places out of view don't exist either. So then why do people make travel plans to places that don't exist? Why do spinners trade pens that don't exist?
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Date: Mon, Apr 14 2008 17:06:52QUOTE (Tialys @ Apr 14 2008, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you believe a pen doesn't exist, then you have to acknowledge that all objects do not exist, even when you can verify them with your senses. If you believe things exist only as you're interacting with them, then you must also admit that places out of view don't exist either. So then why do people make travel plans to places that don't exist? Why do spinners trade pens that don't exist?
^-- this is the reason why I closed the original thread. If you argue that pens don't exist, you have to argue that reality in general doesn't exist (as you perceive it to be). Why would anyone argue that ONLY pens do not exist in this world, makes no sense. That's why this topic is considered off-topic. -
Date: Mon, Apr 14 2008 19:35:10
Consider the following:
We perceive only what our bodies are made to perceive. Our perception varies from person to person, and we all experience things differently from one another. Every experience from person to person is entirely unique and cannot be replicated. Through application of what we've been taught, we perceive this object and by language we identify it as a "pen." Now, by simply not speaking the english language, a person would not know of a "pen's" existance, therefor in their perception a pen does not exist.
Also, what one person perceives as a pen, another person may perceive as a stick, simply by reference to what they can identify with that they are used to.
Due to the flaw of the human perception, there is no guarantee that what we experience is truly what is. We may only experience part of a greater whole in the universe due to our limits in what we are able to perceive.
Then again, there is not much use in discussing the unknown for anything other than entertainment because the unknown is exactly that... unknown. -
Date: Tue, Apr 15 2008 00:24:40QUOTE (Mats @ Apr 11 2008, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Does the pen really exist?
I'm going to say it both does and doesn't exist at the same time, because, as we all know, until something is observed, it exists in all possible states. Therefore, while we observe the pen, it exists, while we are not there to observe it, it both does and doesn't.
And I would take the red pill and the blue pill, crush them both up and snort them.
ummm, how can it exist and not exist at the same time. ??? this talk is confusing... what is metaphysics? -
Date: Tue, Apr 15 2008 17:02:35QUOTE (ZRandom @ Apr 15 2008, 01:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>ummm, how can it exist and not exist at the same time. ??? this talk is confusing... what is metaphysics?
The article in wiki on metaphysics is actually pretty good and gives you a good idea of what metaphysics is. -
Date: Wed, Apr 16 2008 02:09:18
"What is "real"? How do you define "real"? If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." - Morpheus
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Date: Wed, Apr 16 2008 02:31:17
Of course a pen/pen mod exists, what a silly question. If it didn't they we wouldn't exist.
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Date: Wed, Apr 16 2008 02:54:20QUOTE (awsome @ Apr 8 2008, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I read something along the lines of this. The past only exists in our memories therefore it is not real, and the future can only exist in our plans therefore it is not real. Since our brains take a while to form mental images of what we perceive, all of our perceptions of things are in the past and not real. With this logic our perception of pens isn't real because what we perceive of the pen is already in the past.
I haven't read very much into metaphysics, but I think it can make an interesting conversation. It is near impossible to prove any of it, but it can be fun to think about.
By the way I would eat the Red and the blue pill
This sort of makes me fear for my body. Like...if i'm only experiencing the aftermath of something that happened in the past..then my body is just wandering aimlessly and my brain is controling it only through past experiences. This makes me think that if the technology to process information faster than the human mind ever existed...then that technology could feasibly be able to react to human beings faster than we would be able to percieve ourselves being reacted upon. Thats scary....
Robotic pens will take over the world!!! -
Date: Wed, Apr 16 2008 03:14:49
I think the pen exists. lol atoms are phasing in and out im pretty sure the pen exists. lol
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Date: Wed, Apr 16 2008 15:57:10
Nothing exists if we live in a computer-generated dream world.
Anyway, everything exists in the present seeing that the past and future are not real. Nothing existed 10 minutes ago and nothing will exist 10 minutes from now because we cant observe something exactly 10 minutes ago and the future hasnt happened yet. But in 10 minutes, everything WILL exist then immediately become the past and no longer exist. Clear as mud, right?
Well... I just love these kind of twisted subjects. My friend, my sister and I love going on for a long time on subjects close to this.
-Mystic- -
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2008 12:16:19
ever heard of augustinus? he said like exactly the same things about time...
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Date: Thu, Apr 17 2008 21:32:34
"I think therefore I am"
pens do not think therefore they are not
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Date: Fri, Apr 18 2008 00:17:32QUOTE (servantofGod @ Apr 17 2008, 05:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>"I think therefore I am"
pens do not think therefore they are not
but what happens if 'we' people don't think for a moment? do we then not exhist? so if someone stops thinking for a moment will he be caught up in time? i wonder... -
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2008 09:22:15
lol. (non religious ppl) Think of what happens after you die. Is everything black? What happens? Not being offensive, it only works on non-religious ppl. It feels weird right? Like your brain cannot compute what happens.
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Date: Sat, Apr 19 2008 05:30:33QUOTE (SpinStar @ Apr 18 2008, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>lol. (non religious ppl) Think of what happens after you die. Is everything black? What happens? Not being offensive, it only works on non-religious ppl. It feels weird right? Like your brain cannot compute what happens.
??????? what does this have to do with pens not exhisting? -
Date: Wed, Aug 27 2008 20:09:55
No one can know if anything really exists. People tell us that something "is" and we believe it. Who is to say that we are not like "Men in Black" where we are just a marble to something larger? We could be nothing but at the same time, we could be everything... Who knows if a pen exists? No one can be sure that it or anything else exists... Without these answers, we are nothing...
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Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 14:22:58
We can't prove that the pens exist. Hell, we can't really prove that anything exists.
However, we can conduct a system of scientific tests on the pen and deduce pretty easily
that it is most likely real. So if all the physics we've discovered so far is accurate, than we know it
exists, at least within our own frame of reference. -
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 14:53:50
i don't get it.. what's metaphysics?
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Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 15:42:37
If you believe that it exists, then it does. If not... I feel sorry for you.
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Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 20:24:20
There's a difference between your waking state and your dream state. Do you know what it is? Within your dream state, things you sense (feel, smell, hear, see etc.) cannot exist aside from your mind. This way you can alter your dreams and do whatever you want. In waking state the things you sense do exist aside from your mind. In other words, you can't alter the objects (turn it into cola per example), which is possible in the dream state.
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Date: Sat, Oct 18 2008 02:29:46
some people find it quite odd the different ways dreams are percieved. some people see them as dimensions to another realm, others believe them to be reality. if you are dreaming right now, then i dont exist, but i am thinking as i am typing so to me i exist. you have no way of proving i exist. nobody does. i have no proof of you. a conversation of existence is like adding a random 2 in a binary code line and hoping it works. the brain can simply not compute these concepts.
and for the record, none of you are real.
