UPSB v3
Naming Committee / [topic][5.12] Redefining Incorrectly Named Tricks
-
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 02:19:16
Project Leader: Mats
Description: Fake Reverse, HalfTap, FullTap, BackTap: These tricks are tricks of the spin family, but their name doesn't suggest this. There also is occasional confusion about these tricks, and Reverse ThumbSpins.
"I suggest we could use 'Tapped' as a modifier much like 'Fingerless' is now to show how the trick is push. This could also then be applied to any trick in which the push is a tap and not a true push that follows through. So I suggest the name 'TappedSpin' for these tricks."
----
Original Thread -
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 17:42:38
For Half/Full Taps I suggest we rename them to:
'TappedSpin'
(new modifier)
BakTaps are actually FingerlessSpins that spin on the fingers. I think we could rename them to 'Fingerless TopSpins' (since they spin on the top of the hand).
I'm not sure about fake reverse because I can't actually do it
Thoughts? -
Date: Tue, Sep 11 2007 02:46:09
I like the idea Tap being changed to a modifier. I'm not sure how to rename Backtap, since the placement on the backs of the fingers is important.
I'm okay with Hafltap/Fulltap/etc... being changed simply to Topspin. There's nothing else specific to the tricks then that. Backtaps may be able to be lumped together with them, except that you can do a Hafltap in the 12 slot with the pen starting and ending on the side of the Middle finger with your hand held vertically. If the hand is horizontal, you would do a Backtap, if it is vertical, I wouldn't know what to call the trick. -
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 01:50:50QUOTE (Mats)For Half/Full Taps I suggest we rename them to:
'TappedSpin'
(new modifier)
The problem is, in a previous discussion, I believe, that we haven't identified the exact location of where the pen spins on the hand in a Half/Full Tap. -
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 03:02:14
If Tap becomes a modified, and Haltap/Fulltap/etc... are deprecated, then the location does not matter. It can be specified like any other trick. Instead of naming it based on the location, we should have a name that allows the trick to be performed anywhere without changing it. Example would be Sonic, no need to change the name to fit the location.
The problem would be Backtaps, which have an odd location and hand position. That trick may need a different name from Halftap/Fulltap since the push and catch are different than that of Halftap/Fulltap. -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:15:15
In general, i dont like the idea of renaming/redefining already commonly used tricks/names.... it gets too confusing, plus people probably won't use the new names....
thats why for the interrupted stuff i suggested that previously named hybrids stay the same, its more receptive that way... but im all for using new modifiers for new tricks... don't continue misnaming them ... -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:20:49
there shouldnt be any problem renaming commonly used tricks, as long as the new notation makes even more sense. If the advantage to renaming is very small, most ppl won't change.
I mean, thumbaround is a fairly recent name. now everybody use it, because they realize it was confusing to differentiate between "around the thumb" spin and the "on the thumb" spin/ -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:29:13
haha, dont even get me started on that.
in my opinion a thumbspin 1.5 should be a thumbaround 1.5.
it does the same exact thing, only with a .5 rotation added in.... -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:36:30
yea, but it was confusing for round number spins (2.0, 3.0, etc). cuz you have double TA, and you have thumbspin 2.0. So if you're gonna call it thumbspin 2.0, might as well call thumbspin 1.5.
otherwise it would be
thumbaround 1.0, thumbaround 1.5, thumbspin 2.0, thumbaround 2.5, thumbspin 3.0, etc. which is stupid. -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:42:09QUOTE (Zombo @ Sep 18 2007, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>yea, but it was confusing for round number spins (2.0, 3.0, etc). cuz you have double TA, and you have thumbspin 2.0. So if you're gonna call it thumbspin 2.0, might as well call thumbspin 1.5.
otherwise it would be
thumbaround 1.0, thumbaround 1.5, thumbspin 2.0, thumbaround 2.5, thumbspin 3.0, etc. which is stupid.
huh?
why would you need thumbspin 2.0? it'd be a (SINGULAR) thumbaround 2.0 (<-- Referring to the number of spins in the ONE around).
a double TA would be simply that: a double TA.
EDIT: try to think about it this way- A shadow 2.0 isnt two shadows... its one shadow with two spins. why would it be different for an around? -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:55:23
Because you're changing the spin type, which is precisely the reason why shadows have different names from sonics.
TA goes around the finger, while TS spins on the finger. There is a difference. -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:57:19
i honestly disagree....
the only difference in my TA and my TS's is that i just wait and catch them later ... -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 01:58:53
Then you're not doing a TA, you're doing a TS 1.0. Also a different, yet possible trick. Video?
-
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 02:04:43
lol sure, but it'll just be a TA lol...
actually, i'll use this opportunity to explain what im trying to say....
/me tries to find camera -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 03:06:46QUOTE (strat1227 @ Sep 18 2007, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>huh?
why would you need thumbspin 2.0? it'd be a (SINGULAR) thumbaround 2.0 (<-- Referring to the number of spins in the ONE around).
a double TA would be simply that: a double TA.
EDIT: try to think about it this way- A shadow 2.0 isnt two shadows... its one shadow with two spins. why would it be different for an around?
you know what we used to have?
when you wrote it in degrees, i.e 720 degrees, it meant AROUND. When you wrote in number of spins 2.0, it meant SPIN. Confusing isn't it?
double vs 2.0 is as confusing as 720 vs 2.0.
I mean for veterans it was CRYSTAL-CLEAR, 720 is NOT 2.0. But we got so !@$!@$ fed up with newbs confusing the two that we invented the Naming Commitee JUST so we can find a solution to the Thumbspin problem. That's when we renamed it thumbaround.
So maybe it's like super clear to you, but I guarantee you a lot of ppl would just be confused if we kept only one name. We made the progress to change it to two names, why regress back. History told us it was bad, let's not go back and suffer agian. -
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 17:56:02
oh, i'm not saying that we should go back or anything ...
im just saying people think that Bak 1.5 is misnamed, but i think its just fine. a bak with 1.5 spins lol, its pretty simple...
same thing applies to other tricks, ect ect.
anyway, back on-topic: im against renaming current tricks unless there is a REAL problem (like, the hybrid thing where there WERE no names lol) -
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 01:58:59
Sonic 1.5 was used everywhere, just a week or so after the article's release on renaming the trick, I don't recall anyone using it...Seems there is no problem in changing names of tricks.
The other thing is, what we have is nearly a naming system. A naming system by which, you group tricks of similar spin types together. If we complete the system, there will be no confusion anywhere with any trick anymore. If some tricks don't follow the system... Well, then we have that classic problem that arises in the English language when you allow the spellings of words to be written and only nearly, and not entirely, follow the spelling rules, all over again.
Also, Around 1.5s are done from time to time. If we use Around 1.5 to refer to the spin 1.5, how are we to tell them apart? In future, people will use tricks like Around 1.5s more and more as pen spinning continues to grow. You suggest we have no way to tell these tricks apart? I've heard hearsay and naysayers about Around 2.0s, but in future these may also be done, increasing the confusion yet more. Seems sensible to complete the system, so as to have a solid foundation for the future, as well as for now.QUOTE (strat)EDIT: try to think about it this way- A shadow 2.0 isnt two shadows... its one shadow with two spins. why would it be different for an around?
Just to point out that this is flawed logic. Shadow 2.0 states there is one trick, that completes 2 spins. There is no way there can be two tricks involved, so this cannot be two shadows no matter how one takes it. Also, a Shadow by its very definition is purely a spin trick; it can have no other spin type. So A Shadow x will never be confused with anything else. A ThumbAround x also won't be, since if it spins on the thumb, it will be called ThumbSpin. However, with BackAround and Backs, there is nothing to seperate them. -
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 02:13:04
uuh, lets start with the first thing you said shall we
i said that if there were a problem (like sonic 1.5) then we need to change it... i dont really see any problems with any tricks in the status quo, feel free to point some out to me if you feel otherwise...
ok, now on the around thing ... i dont want to go back and forth on this anymore, but my position (and you or anyone else has yet to show me a compelling arguement to change my mind) is that the way things should be done is "Trick (number of spins within that trick)"
meaning: a shadow with 2 rotations would be a Shadow 2.0
an Index around (goes around the finger once by definition) with two rotations would be an IndexAround 2.0
the impossible instance you are putting before me that you say there isnt any way to name: an IndexAround followed by another IndexAround with no push... i don't know why you fail to realise that we've already come up with a notating system for this... it would be IndexAround 12-12 ~ IndexAround 12-12
very simple.... two consecutive tricks with no catch, no push... thats what interrupted notation was invented for.
its easy, its consistant... trick, then number of rotations... if you do the trick more than once, then its the trick interrupted by another one... i dont know why you feel otherwise, you've yet to effeciently explain yourself
-
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 02:23:31QUOTEeffeciently
Someone plz tell me what this bitch on about? Plz?
My strong dislike for you aside... You agree there was a problem, and that Sonic 1.5 should have been renamed to Shadow. What was that problem? The problem was that Sonic 1.5 denotes and incorrect spin type. There is a trick called BackAround 1.5, this is taken by most however, to mean a spin trick, yet the name clearly states around spin type. This therefore, should be changed, by the very same logic that caused Sonic 1.5 to be changed. You agree with the renaming of Sonic 1.5, but not with this one, yet they are for the same reason.QUOTEan Index around (goes around the finger once by definition)
I'm afraid it does not. An IndexAround 1.0 goes around the finger once by defintion, but an IndexAround 0.5, 1.5 or 2.0 does not. 'IndexAround' on it's own denotes a trick that goes around the index. It is merely assumed since 1.0 is the most common, that with no number after the word, this is what is meant, much the same as with 'ThumbSpin' people typically assume 1.5 spins if there is no number present.QUOTEIndexAround 12-12 ~ IndexAround 12-12
This is unclear. One would have to write IndexAround 12-12 [p][s] ~ IndexAround 12-12 [s][c] just to make clear what is happening. Seems a bit tedius...
Aside from that, having an IndexAround 1.5 as spinning as a topspin spin type goes against our very own naming conventions.
It seems you're the only one arguing that the Naming Committee should opt to ignore it's own conventions where it sees fit. -
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 02:26:14
lol. this is why i stopped trying to have intellegant conversations with you... you just get pissed off and insulting ... there was no need to make it personal dude, i was only trying to convey my position to you.
and i dont understand what's unclear about IA ~ IA. -
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 03:05:13
Ok guys... come on. Thats really enough. We're all working twords the same goal here, you're just both being stubborn and blind to each other's positions.
Simply put, there are two different proposed naming systems here, which I will try to simply explain now:
Mats: Around vs Spin. around tricks may only go around the finger(s) and may not have any topspin rotation. If they do, then itis renamed toSpin. See Thumb Around vs Thumb Spin for an example. (yeah, strat, I know you don't like the example, but until you show me a video that says otherwise, the entire community has been disagreeing with you for years...)
Strat: Around = Spin. An around may have any number of rotations, which imply spins. For tricks that go around a finger multiple times use hyrbrid naming (and yes, you would need the detailed version to be clear). Example: IA that goes around twice = IA[p][s 1.0] ~ IA[s 1.0][c]. Spins on index 2.0 = IA 2.0
Now both conventions would theoretically work. The thing is, which would the public except easier? Both require changes... in Mats, you need to rename tricks like bakaround 1.5+ to backspin1.5+ (or another name). In strat's you would need to eliminate the term thumbspin, and a number of oher spins, which can be performed as similar arounds. I personally prefer Mats' just seems more intuitive... but thats what we're here to discuss. As in not flame... now play nice. -
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 10:38:04
im not proposing we eliminate thumbspin dude... thats what i've been saying the whole time... dont change shit that already works... but right now, apparently there's no real definition for an IA 2.0 ...
so i guess i should make another topic for it ... because its not really redefining anything, its just defining it in the first place lol ... -
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 13:07:03
sonic 1.5 was working fine, yet we changed it... what was the problem with sonic 1.5? everybody was clear and not confused on it.
-
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 18:54:10
i wasnt around, why did you change it then?
-
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 20:11:03QUOTE (Zombo @ Sep 20 2007, 09:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>sonic 1.5 was working fine, yet we changed it... what was the problem with sonic 1.5? everybody was clear and not confused on it.
Haha, YOU were the one who suggested it lol.
here - http://z15.invisionfree.com/UCPSB/index.ph...t&p=1137435
The name was changed for consistency of spin types, not because everyone was confused. -
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 21:12:40
If you're gonna make IA 2.0 a spin trick, then you had better make TA 2.0 a spin trick as well. Otherwise all hell's gonna break loose with confused people.
-
Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 21:41:34
Indexaround with extra spins (like the current Backaround 1.5+) already has a perfectly exceptable name: Indexspin 1.5+.
-
Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 01:23:20QUOTE (thig @ Sep 20 2007, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Haha, YOU were the one who suggested it lol.
here - http://z15.invisionfree.com/UCPSB/index.ph...t&p=1137435
The name was changed for consistency of spin types, not because everyone was confused.
that's right, but strat is saying we should only change when ppl are confused, so that's contradicting the change for sonic 1.5 -
Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 01:40:12
People were confused as to why Sonic 1.5 wasn't already part of the Shadow family, some were already calling it Shadow. After some discussion, we decided that Sonic 1.5 was closer to Shadow than it was to Sonic.
-
Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 20:10:29QUOTE (sketching @ Sep 17 2007, 11:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If Tap becomes a modified, and Haltap/Fulltap/etc... are deprecated, then the location does not matter. It can be specified like any other trick. Instead of naming it based on the location, we should have a name that allows the trick to be performed anywhere without changing it. Example would be Sonic, no need to change the name to fit the location.
The problem would be Backtaps, which have an odd location and hand position. That trick may need a different name from Halftap/Fulltap since the push and catch are different than that of Halftap/Fulltap.
For BakTap, I don't think its location is odd. If I were to do a Half Tap 12, then the BakTap position in the most logical(?) position. But yes, the push is definitely different. I'm not too sure about the catch. -
Date: Sat, Sep 22 2007 04:43:39
Hmm... Baktap would just be the fingerless version of Halftap. I'm cool with that.
-
Date: Sat, Oct 20 2007 18:55:02QUOTE (sketching @ Sep 10 2007, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Backtaps may be able to be lumped together with them, except that you can do a Hafltap in the 12 slot with the pen starting and ending on the side of the Middle finger with your hand held vertically. If the hand is horizontal, you would do a Backtap, if it is vertical, I wouldn't know what to call the trick.
wait, what? -
Date: Sun, Oct 21 2007 04:42:04
RE: my quoted text above
That was in regard to possibly combining Halftap and Backtap into just "Topspin". The Halftap push would be the finger push, Backtap would be the fingerless push. I think I just answered my own question with that last sentence.
You can do a fingerless push in the Haltap hand position with the pen in the 12 slot. You can also do a fingerless push with the pen in the 12 slot as a Backtap. In the quote above, I wondering if they should be different tricks, but now I see that it would just be a matter of hand position...like Sonic palm vertical vs Sonic palm down. No need for different trick names.
Taps and different pushes
Taps may be able to be renamed to Top Spins, except that you can use a TA Rev push or a "flick" push for Fulltap Reverse. Should "tap" and "flick" be modifiers to designate different kinds of pushes, like "fingerless"?
Examples
New modifiers?- Flicked = Kam and David's way of doing a Fake Reverse push, Eso "rediscovered" it a while ago. A quick tap with the top of a finger while the hand is vertical.
- Tapped = the usual Halftap, Fulltap type of push. A quick tap with the side or bottom of a finger instead of a smooth push while the hand is in any position.
Put into use- Halftap T12 = Tapped Top Spin T12-T12
- Fake Reverse = Top Spin Reverse T12-T12
- "flicked" Fake Reverse = Flicked Top Spin Reverse T2-T2
-
Date: Sun, Oct 21 2007 09:29:25
getting new modifiers should be a good way to fix some floating names. The Weissian moves deserve it, in a way, they are widely forgotten by too many spinners.
Flicked and tapped : IMO those are O.K. for what they pretend to design. Just my two cents then : many notations are already "heavy" to learn and pronounce, so it's a bit sad to turn simple names like Halftap or Backtap in "Tapped Top Spin"... But apart from this minor point, it's good to introduce a formal system for pushes, the fingerless modifier was really not enough.
ah and sorry if I can't take part in the debates above, I really don't have the time to read and fully understand EVERY posts today