UPSB v3

Philosophy / Video Tutorials

Beneficial or harmful?

Eso
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 13:34:53

Back before I came around and started making video tutorials, there were textual instructions on how to perform tricks. There are several disadvantages to text instructions:
- The instructions are only as good as the poster's writing abilities
- Words have a hard time capturing and describing the full complexity of a trick
- Long blocks of text are often disengaging and do not keep the full attention of the reader
Aside from text tutorials, there were also video tutorials. There were quite a bit. Examples include Kam, the people of Turtlespin, David Weis, Aysh, and tohlz. However, they all had several things in common:
- There was no accompanying voice
- The length was usually less than 10 seconds
- Most had the pattern of displaying the video and then replaying the video again, but slower
While these video tutorials helped us through the years, the aforementioned points are also their disadvantages. Spinners had to constantly play the videos on loop, hoping to gain a better understanding of the trick. It is true that once the spinner achieves the trick, he gains a feeling a satisfaction and accomplishment. However, there are those that simply do not understand. They have a mental block that prevents them from learning the trick, and a simple video of the trick being displayed wasn't enough to help them gain that better understanding.

When I created the video tutorials, I wanted to show the world that tricks and combos are not as hard as everyone makes them out to be. I am thankful that I was able to understand how to do tricks just by reading text tutorials and by viewing those video tutorials. By observing closely and noting the critical points, I was able to simplify the learning into a few easy steps. Of course, this requires some thought by my viewers. I can only present the points, I cannot make the viewer learn. I like to think that I brought down the learning curve, but not to the point where it is simply given on "on a silver platter", so to speak. When I formulated the learning steps, I made sure that the viewer asks himself/herself certain questions in order to get from point A to point B in a trick or combo. This is critical thinking, and this is ultimately what I wanted to teach my viewers. With critical thinking, it is possible to achieve just about any trick or combo if one tried hard enough.

I have stated my case, and I wish to present to you the heart of the matter. Are video tutorials beneficial or harmful? This question has many layers. Is it beneficial or harmful to one's thinking? To one's personal satisfaction? To the learning curve? I would like to address each of these. First, I have already stated that I wanted to instill critical thinking upon the viewers. However, there are those that believe the video tutorials simply just hand the trick over to the viewer, as if the learning curve is practically non-existent. I can assure you that this is not the case because I still receive numerous emails and messages on YouTube from my viewers. This is a sure sign that there is a learning curve, and that in fact there is a mental block amongst many. Yes, a mental block, even with my tutorials.
Second, I believe that no matter how high or low the learning curve, once someone achieves a trick, the personal satisfaction is still there. Some believe that because of the video tutorials, the struggle to achieving the trick is not as great, therefore, the yielded satisfaction is not as high. This seems to be highly dependent on the individual, rather than a generalized statement. Again, I have received messages and emails from viewers and members of pen spinning boards that my tutorials have helped them and they are excited having learned a new trick.
Third, the learning curve is something that is dependent on the individual. In my case, I was able to learn nearly all tricks in a matter of weeks, some within a single day. While I have this special ability, linking continues to be my downfall. While another spinner may have the complete opposite attributes; it takes several months to learn a single trick but after learning that trick, is able to link it flawlessly into other tricks. It seems to me that the naysayers for the video tutorials wishes pen spinning to remain exclusive and the only way to make it exclusive is to keep the learning curve high. Perhaps it is to "weed out" the not-so-dedicated people. Perhaps it is a way to distinguish who is a "true spinner." I have no real qualms about any of these motives. I only wish to present the people with a better way of learning. No more, no less. If my tutorials bring down the learning curve, which I'm sure it does, then so be it.

So now I ask you, do you believe video tutorials are beneficial or harmful? Before you answer, it's best to define the scope. Is it beneficial or harmful to learning? To the pen spinning world? To the rest of the world? I await your answers.
Mats
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 14:26:40

Beneficial to learning.
Beneficial to the pen spinning world.
Immaterial to the rest of the world.

I don't see how this is philosophy?
Sfsr
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 15:08:58

I believe that your video tutorials are great for most spinners and an awesome addition to the penspinning resources already available, but they are nothing for me. I don't know why, no doubt I'd learn a lot of new stuff by watching them, but it's just nothing I would do... :/
Zombo
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 17:23:53

I wouldn't worry about learning curve or whatnot, this is because the standards today are much higher than before. If you spend years learning the fundamentals starting from today, you probably won't get very far in "competitive pen spinning".

In that sense, what was hard yesterday should become basic today so that in general, pen spinning can progress further. If new spinners have to rebuild from scratch what the pioneers have achieved, then the progression of pen spinning in general will fall.

Now one problem with video tutorials has to do with the way it frames your pen spinning knowledge. It's like watching a movie interpretation after reading the novel. You're somehow stuck with the face of the main character from the movie in your mind, when everybody had a different vision of the character prior to the movie.

It's the same thing here, you somehow lock or associate the content of the video to your own understanding of the trick at hand. What happens in text tutorial is that it's open to interpretation. THere are many ways to execute the same tricks and there's no "perfect" unique way.

In that sense, using video tutorials will limit their ability to develop their own personality through their spinning.

Now at the limit, this is OK for simple, basic tricks. We've worked on those tricks for years and there are generally agreed principles on how to perfect them.

The problem comes when the video tutorial talks on advanced topics. Once a tutorial reaches that level, it becomes subjective and the watcher will start to think like the user. It somehow standardizes pen spinning.

The solution is to simply build tutorials for common tricks and be as objective as possible. Do not inject your own opinion, and show different sides / views.
Mats
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 17:47:03

If there were lots of different people making video tutorials, it would not matter about 'standardising' pen spinning, since each person would do it a bit different in each tutorial, so long as people didn't flock to just one person, and people used all the different tutorials. Unless this happens however, I tend to agree. I remember noting how Eso does his Extended TAs very differently to how I do mine, and I suspect that means now the way I do my Ext TAs is going to be far more rare than the way Eso does his due to the video tutorial
grsbmd
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 17:47:22

I don't really like anything that dictates how people have to spin, whether it be a learning order, fundamentals, "wut shud i lern nex?" thread, etc...

I think the tutorials are great, but the things I don't like are:

1. You list specific prerequisites for each tutorial. I realize you can't start every video from scratch, but it leads people into thinking that somehow shadow is a more advanced trick than sonic, but that's really just a stereotype that advanced spinners are pushing. I think that categorization like this leads people to all spin in the same mold. For example, I could very easily see someone who learns backaround conclude that the only thing you can do with a backaround is a bak fall and a bak fall with multiple baks, when in reality, there's inverse backarounds, backaround-shadow hybrids, etc... that you can do once you learn backaround, but people aren't willing to try them because they aren't promoted the same ways as tricks that you're "supposed to learn" after you learn a backaround.

2. You can only make so many videos. If people come to rely on your videos, their repetoire will include only the tricks that you show them how to do.

3. When you show somebody how to do everything, there's no chance for the person learning to experiment, or do the trick wrong and figure out a variation.

4. If you do a trick incorrectly, everyone who watches the video will learn to do it incorrectly.
Eso
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 18:56:03

QUOTE (grsbmd @ Sep 10 2007, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. You list specific prerequisites for each tutorial. I realize you can't start every video from scratch, but it leads people into thinking that somehow shadow is a more advanced trick than sonic, but that's really just a stereotype that advanced spinners are pushing. I think that categorization like this leads people to all spin in the same mold. For example, I could very easily see someone who learns backaround conclude that the only thing you can do with a backaround is a bak fall and a bak fall with multiple baks, when in reality, there's inverse backarounds, backaround-shadow hybrids, etc... that you can do once you learn backaround, but people aren't willing to try them because they aren't promoted the same ways as tricks that you're "supposed to learn" after you learn a backaround.

I can see how people can be easily led into the trap of spinning just like you see in the tutorials. However, there's a plethora of videos out there and with the Breakdown Request thread, it's possible to discover other variations of tricks. As for other variations of tricks, I think they can only be discovered through research. That's a skill most people don't have, unfortunately. However, there is one false statement you have there. While there are prerequisites, I do not list tricks you're supposed to learn after learning a particular trick. In fact, I often tell my viewers that they should create their own path and see what they come up with, since I am often swamped with questions of "what am I supposed to learn now?" So, in my defense, I have tried to promote self-discovery and self-learning.
I call the prerequisites as I see them. Based on the mechanics of the trick or combo I'm teaching, it would make sense to learn a primer trick, especially in the case of combos such as Double Charge and

QUOTE
2. You can only make so many videos. If people come to rely on your videos, their repetoire will include only the tricks that you show them how to do.

This is only limited by the individual's willingness to search. After each video, I include a link to UCPSB, so there's no excuse for them to NOT look. If a large number of people come to rely on my videos and nothing else, then I must say it is their own fault. But, who are we to say whether they are happy or not with just the things I taught them?
I do realize it is partly my duty to give out a video as a disclaimer of sorts to clear any confusion around this molding that's going on.

QUOTE
3. When you show somebody how to do everything, there's no chance for the person learning to experiment, or do the trick wrong and figure out a variation.

Again, this is purely dependent on the individual. There are several misleading points in your statement. First, I can't possibly teach everything, since I do not know everything. Second, there's always a chance for someone to experiment. Whether it's linking or variations, it is up to the person to do the experimenting. If there is any kind of limiting happening, it is themselves.

Thank you all for your posts! It seems that releasing tutorials entails lots of responsibilities. I wanted to defend my original intent of making tutorials, because I did not want to be responsible for any kind of harmful impact on the pen spinning world.

This begs the question: if there are many pen spinners that live near you, wouldn't teaching them in person have the same effect as video tutorials? I certainly think so.
However, it seems that the points showed to me cater to the creative aspect of pen spinning, as well as the path of discovery. I will certainly make my viewers aware of this aspect.
Zombo
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2007 19:53:02

QUOTE (Eso @ Sep 10 2007, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This begs the question: if there are many pen spinners that live near you, wouldn't teaching them in person have the same effect as video tutorials? I certainly think so.
However, it seems that the points showed to me cater to the creative aspect of pen spinning, as well as the path of discovery. I will certainly make my viewers aware of this aspect.

the topic of tutorial is not black or white; it largely depends on the way you do it.

You could make video tutorials that are "spoiler-free" just like you could make very normative and imperative tutorials that will force the viewer in a certain direction.

The same is true when you teach someone. I usually them the basic (i.e. what you would read in a text tutorial) then tell them to experiment on their own for a while. After a while they come back to me they should tell me what their problem is and then I'll suggest improvements.
K4S
Date: Tue, Sep 11 2007 00:31:33

I dont see anything wrong with thorough video tutorials. It's not as if someone can watch a tutorial and master the trick in the same day....it's still up to the viewer to practice in order to learn the trick. I joined ucpsb before Eso made all those tutorials so i had to learn everything by reading text tutorials and it's frustrating trying to filter through what people are saying to interpret the trick correctly. In some cases i interpreted the text wrong and only after watching a video tutorial did i realize i was doing it wrong.

Video tutorials do not lower the learning curve, they simply eliminate the factor of having to sort through good and bad text tutorials to learn the trick.
Tim
Date: Sat, Sep 15 2007 06:04:29

Man, when I first got sonic from Kam's textual description from pentix, i was so happy, frickin ecstatic, and i was with the rest of the fundies as well. I can't really remember learning many tricks after that. I managed to learn tricks quickly from turtlespin and that. I learnt backaround and infinity from a thread with vid tuts from upsb v2 (I didn't know ucpsb existed yet). Those were pretty much the only tricks that I used vid tuts for. I used turtlespin for pretty much all my tricks.

Anyway, I think i had a much better understanding of the sonic because it took me so long to get it and I had tried all these different ways. Because I practiced it so much, i got a really good understanding of how the trick worked. when you don't see the trick in motion and just with pics, it was really really exciting when the first time I saw it for real, was when I did it.
WhiteFang
Date: Sat, Sep 15 2007 10:15:10

Video tutorials can be harmful and benefical..
it depends on the viewer..i reckon if you are dependant on the video tutorial its harmful since it limits your own style of ps. but if you wish to learn a certain trick without a video and you have tried to learn it but couldn't, i do one of these..

1. keep trying until i get it
2. read some more articles on the trick and try again
3. learn another trick first then come back to the trick
4. Watch ur vid tutorial.

so i do use ur videos and have nothing against it. but i think after i learn a trick from ur vid, i just learn how to do the trick not understanding why the trick is possible. when you learn a trick without a vid, you try all sorts of things until you get the trick.i think that process is really important, experimenting. that's something you miss out on when you learn from a video.
Chungy
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 03:06:15

Video tutorials are just like drugs.. They need to be taken in moderation. If you learn a fingerpass with a video tutorial, you shouldn't need a tutorial for the reverse fingerpass. Putting all of your faith in one person releasing videos won't work very well, no matter how good that person is at explaining it. I think that if you rely too much on other peoples tutorials, you will miss the most important aspect of pen spinning, the joy of learning a trick and being able to perform it well on your own. Don't get me wrong looking at a video tutorial is great if you don't understand how a trick is performed and are at a loss to how people do it, but like I said before, complete reliance on video tutorials IMO isn't a good thing.
Nova
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 10:22:28

from the look of it, new spinners seem to LIKE video tutorials a lot.

but since i had started spinning, i have never watched a single video tutorial except Eso's first one, the twisted sonic bust ~ bak rev one, and i already knew it then and was just watching as a 'critic' of some sort.

for me, penspinning isn't a very conceptual skill. once you get the concept down, there aren't many 'SUPER TIPS' which a 'teacher' can give you to optimize your learning speed. the next thing is practice.

to me, it seems the video tutorials actually only heighten the awareness of spinners that there IS such a trick, and the concept is being taught.

i think it would be wiser to create video tutorials, or rather videos and text descriptions of what spinners can do with the tricks they have mastered. for example, a walkthrough on combo-planning would be beneficial to those technically inclined spinners who seem to always be accused of 'spamming', but are actually merely not choosing the correct flow of tricks.

of course there should not be too many examples of say, how to start a combo/end a combo as this might kill creeativity, and the outcome would be everyone spinning using the same style.

video tutorials should trigger more individuality, and not force spinners into a 'by the book and master thread listing' approach.

hope i made sense.
iMatt
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 21:42:03

i hear what your saying, but really your just putting more videos to Kam's Learning Order http://www.pentrix.com/articles/images/learning_order.gif
It's really up to the new spinners to decide what they need/want to learn next. No need to re-invent the wheel. Like you said,"It's all about Practice." The linking of tricks is very very different from person to person. I agree with the individuality part of everyone should develop there own style, but there's just some tricks that need to be learned fundamentally. Then let the spinner develop the trick themselves into something unique

Don't mean to shut ya down or anything. Just an IMO.
romainhxc
Date: Tue, Sep 18 2007 22:02:50

QUOTE
for example, a walkthrough on combo-planning would be beneficial to those technically inclined spinners who seem to always be accused of 'spamming', but are actually merely not choosing the correct flow of tricks

i disagree with that one.teaching "combo planning to people" is teaching their the way YOU thought of a good planned combo.to me neither my version of a good planned combo neither yours is good, its up to the penspinner choice and own creativity.

really please don't take it as an offense (please please please please) but it kinda shock me.
i remember some old debate on creativity on UCPSB, even if i didn't took part in it but (i don't know if you are one of the people who try to push creativity ( as opposoite to what some call spammers), but if you are----> )) it kinda shock me someone want to teach what he thinks is the good way to link tricks.

Sorry, UPSB old style is not the good way to do penspinning, PDS style is not the good way. they re both are different approach and i don't think some one can consider which one is good.

unfortunately, i don't have psers to teach in real life but if i had to do, i would tell "heres how i like to link some tricks, BUT thats not THE way, there are many variations or directions change/palm position change/finger position/finger flick/wrist flick etc... that you can try"

here's my really humble opinion

QUOTE
Once a tutorial reaches that level, it becomes subjective and the watcher will start to think like the user. It somehow standardizes pen spinning.

thats a matter of choice : you say that if we make tutorials it kinda standardize PS , i don't disagree, but if we don't everyone is on his own then. sure everybody got to experience differents ways but, personnaly i like to help other
FratleymメFS
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 12:40:14

Take a look at the XCM world...

if they were no youtube, XCM teachings would only be the Devo's DVD which are pretty expensive, XCM is an underground world in comparison with penspinning. People who post freely tricks from other XCMers are considered as betrayers by the community, I do think it's a pity. A passion is still a passion... Devo's is making a lot of money with that and no one seems to complain.

Imagine, in penspinning, at the beginning of UPSB, Kam would have made some DVD to show tricks... And if you don't buy it, there's no other ways to learn, wouldn't you find it unfair... well it's like that in XCM...

Perhaps tutorials aren't always that good, but I think we can, at least, be proud, about the fact that penspinning do not belong to one man... Everybody is free to show what he wants and everybody is free to watch the videos he want... Finally, it's not that bad....
Nova
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 13:15:56

QUOTE (romainhxc @ Sep 18 2007, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
really please don't take it as an offense (please please please please) but it kinda shock me.

ah.. it's ok.. i try to remain as open-minded as possible

but i seriously feel that pen spinning lacks this visual appeal of flow IMO.

as in people merely do hard tricks over harder tricks and not bother to make it look nice. there is no effort to show which trick is the center of focus in a combo.

i'm not really trying to force people to 'link' tricks the same way i do, but rather, perform shorter combos all made with clear distinctions between the real climax and plain filler tricks.

ever seen a solo video where all the combos start looking the same after some time? these combos may actually be very different, but need to be carefully dissected and broke down to be fully appreciated.

what i'm thinking of is the overall look of the combo. i hope i brought my point across clearly and unoffensively.
Zombo
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 16:58:21

like I said 3-4 times in this thread, it's not a question of "Are tutorials bad or not", it's a question of "Which kind of tutorials are bad or not". You can have good and bad ones.
Mats
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 17:11:18

QUOTE (Nova @ Sep 19 2007, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ah.. it's ok.. i try to remain as open-minded as possible

but i seriously feel that pen spinning lacks this visual appeal of flow IMO.

as in people merely do hard tricks over harder tricks and not bother to make it look nice. there is no effort to show which trick is the center of focus in a combo.

i'm not really trying to force people to 'link' tricks the same way i do, but rather, perform shorter combos all made with clear distinctions between the real climax and plain filler tricks.

ever seen a solo video where all the combos start looking the same after some time? these combos may actually be very different, but need to be carefully dissected and broke down to be fully appreciated.

what i'm thinking of is the overall look of the combo. i hope i brought my point across clearly and unoffensively.

I don't think I've ever seen combos that build to a climax, but the other things you mentioned are the reason I think people like NHK, Tohlz and Lordbojo (for example) are the best spinners out there; their combos simply have awesome visual appeal.

I have to say that Fratleym brought up a good point... The fact we can even have discussion about if the video tutorials out there are good or bad is just one of the things that makes the pen spinning community awesome. Romain, I'm also tending to agree with what you said too. Video tutorials are all well and good, but there is more than one way to do a trick, and many more ways to link them.
romainhxc
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 22:56:18

QUOTE
ah.. it's ok.. i try to remain as open-minded as possible

but i seriously feel that pen spinning lacks this visual appeal of flow IMO.

as in people merely do hard tricks over harder tricks and not bother to make it look nice. there is no effort to show which trick is the center of focus in a combo.

i'm not really trying to force people to 'link' tricks the same way i do, but rather, perform shorter combos all made with clear distinctions between the real climax and plain filler tricks.

ever seen a solo video where all the combos start looking the same after some time? these combos may actually be very different, but need to be carefully dissected and broke down to be fully appreciated.

what i'm thinking of is the overall look of the combo. i hope i brought my point across clearly and unoffensively.

ok, i didn't though you discribed it that way, i though you were a "creativity extremist" haha so i apologize.

about the "hard trick after hard trick without looking nice" i kinda agree, but...thats strange but it happens to me when i see some videos, i say "damn that looks bad, this sequence is very hard but it looks bad".
but then, i say, "hey, maybe this could thinks it looks very good, we just don't have the same tastes.

so IMO its just a matter of taste, i often see young FPSB members doing stuff i can't even though of in term of difficulty ( and they spin since 5 month) but i think it looks good. but when i see the comments for their combos i read that people are very admirative of that.
i guess its just the inner-definition of PS a person have.

QUOTE
but there is more than one way to do a trick, and many more ways to link them.

yes, i stated that in my previous comment

i went a little off topic

so, about tuts :
i think tutorials are good, but i doesn't mean that when you mastered the trick "tutorial way", then its done.
everybody must explore and discover by himself
Zombo
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 23:00:31

this is about video tutorials, not style of spinning.
Eso
Date: Wed, Sep 19 2007 23:20:34

I'd like to point out that not everybody has the same mindset and attitude towards pen spinning like we all do. Some of the people out there are like those people that are totally clueless with technology. At first, they think the CD-ROM drive is for holding a cup. Then they get a tutorial on how to use computers. It's not like they're going to become computer whizzes, mostly because they don't care enough.

So I think in that regard, video tutorials will help them learn the basics. But I highly doubt they will try and venture out. I think that largely depends on whether they are a person that "uses the CD-ROM as a cup holder" or not.
nolan
Date: Thu, Oct 11 2007 00:10:45

i like learning from tutorials since i can see what there doing, but they need to be explaned well too.
Xethrion
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2007 08:18:47

As a new pen-spinner, I absolutely love video tutorials. Being able to see the trick performed in real time, then broken down step by step definitely increases the speed at which I learn new tricks, as compared to text tutorials w/ pictures.

It also helps when the video maker gives commentary on what to avoid doing, or tips on common errors.

However, the person watching the video still has to put in practice to fully master the trick, it's not a guaranteed thing.

I guess the best thing about posting video tutorials, is that you're opening the world of PSing up even more to those who can be arsed to look for resources. And promoting PSing and getting new people to PS is always a good thing
Icepray
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2007 19:01:42

Since I started spinning I haven't used many video tutorials... I learned my Inverse Sonic and Warped Sonic 13-34. That's it.... First of all I couldn't find many, I thought the for the fundies the text was more than enough and for a few other tricks some videos helped, slow more and looking at the mouvement was plenty. And I also find everybody has a few differences with how they do their tricks. I watched all of Eso's video tutorials to see if I was doing them correctly and there were a few of them that I did not do the same way like the TA extended where I tilt my hand after he does and all and I find that adds to my own style (which might be why I'm a terrible spinner xD) overall it does help and I could have used them to progress faster but I would maybe not be as pround of myself as I am now. But maybe one bad thing could be that they just learn the tricks in the video tutorials and don't try to be creative about their spinning and all, they might just watch a combo helper video that shows a few mini combos do those and watch a collab and maybe do some moves that were in the collab and be stickly bound to the videos on youtube etc... but I doubt that people will have a generic spinning style but they might be missing some tricks from their library.

But Video tutorials are all around beneficial to the community!
MantisJ
Date: Sat, Nov 3 2007 01:09:15

Eso I must say, Ur tutorials are much more benefitual dan u think. I learn mainly from your teaching skills. I found this site mainly because of you. Spreading the glory of penspinning to the worldwide!
U helped me quite a lot i must say, thanks for posting ur tutorials up.
Tialys
Date: Thu, Nov 8 2007 02:37:45

I feel that video tutorials are generally neutral and that their degree of usefulness depends largely upon the viewer's interpretation of the content. The problem is that viewers tend to approach tutorials myopically, attributing ostensible authority to the creator and consequent sacredness to the video. They need to realize that the tutorial is only one interpretation of a trick or combo taught by one spinner using one method/style. I think this narrow-mindedness is characteristic of the new generation and their ability to be led unquestioningly by the hand. Society's suppression of critical thought won't affect areas where learning is structured and ordered (e.g. Photoshop tutorials), but pen spinning involves exploration and experimentation. While this freedom from stricture would normally be an asset, it regrettably sabotages the efforts of those who don't claim this freedom.

Because objectivity has a limit, the creator can only do so much, and the beneficial or detrimental nature of the video rests heavily upon the viewers and their mental openness. The creator can hardly be blamed for the misinterpretation and misguided assumptions of the viewers.