UPSB v3
Research Department Feedback / Expanded Hand Notation article released
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Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 03:41:36
The Research Department has just released a small article on the wiki. You can view the article here: Expanded hand notation. The article suggests notation for the palm and back of the hand for use in breakdowns.
Please give any comments/questions on the article in this thread. -
Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 04:05:44
Personally, I think that new notation adds a new level of complication that's just not needed.
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Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 04:22:39
P is used anyway and B could be useful in some situations so I don't see any problems or complications with it.
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Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 09:02:52
Awesome, I like the idea.
Just wondering, how would you use this for the trick: charge? -
Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 09:08:41
I don't think you would. You could try to do a Charge between a finger and the palm of your hand, but I don't think you will get much movement. Akward position.
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Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 09:25:02
Ah I see. So this extended hand notation only applies to some tricks?
Sorry I have another question, when you do a thumbaround and finish with your index out, the pen is below the thumb, but above the middle finger so would you ignore the expanded hand notation like charge? -
Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 09:40:17
In that position the pen is still between T and 2 ? Or you mean caught between T, 2 and the Palm ? Well you could notate the end position as T2P, but I don't think "P" would really be needed then. this last question refers more to the style in the TA execution than to the actual notation of the trick...Question then is, do we have to notate style too :/
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Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 12:15:36QUOTE (Skatox @ Apr 27 2008, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In that position the pen is still between T and 2 ? Or you mean caught between T, 2 and the Palm ? Well you could notate the end position as T2P, but I don't think "P" would really be needed then. this last question refers more to the style in the TA execution than to the actual notation of the trick...Question then is, do we have to notate style too :/
Inbetween T and 2.
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I think this expanded hand notation is also used to further notate style, because of different ending positions. Such as s777's fingerless ThumbAround ending with his index and middle fingers sticking out (T3), or ayatori's fingerless ThumbAround ending with his index finger sticking out (T2).
There is also the Devil's Around's two different ending positions.
The more well used one being Devil's Around 23-23 and Kam's Devil's Around 23-123 with his 'Fuck You' stall. The pen is on the palm side of the middle finger, and behind the index and ring finger so would P and B have to be used multiple times? -
Date: Sun, Apr 27 2008 23:03:49QUOTEI think this expanded hand notation is also used to further notate style, because of different ending positions. Such as s777's fingerless ThumbAround ending with his index and middle fingers sticking out (T3), or ayatori's fingerless ThumbAround ending with his index finger sticking out (T2).
"P" is to be used to notate the actual palm of the hand, below the fingers, not the palm-side of the fingers. Same goes for "B". I don't see how P or B relate to having fingers extended.QUOTEThere is also the Devil's Around's two different ending positions.
The more well used one being Devil's Around 23-23 and Kam's Devil's Around 23-123 with his 'Fuck You' stall. The pen is on the palm side of the middle finger, and behind the index and ring finger so would P and B have to be used multiple times?
Again, neither the palm or back of the hand are involved in the Devil's Around hybrids, so I don't see a need to use the notation for them.
This notation is meant to be used when the palm and back of the hand are actually involved in the tricks performed. -
Date: Mon, Apr 28 2008 04:12:36
So let me get this straight:
Old Notation: Twisted Sonic 23-12 -> IndexPinkyBackAround 2.0 Reverse 12-34
Expanded Notation: Twisted Sonic 23-12 -> IndexPinkyBackAround 2.0 Reverse 12-B-34 -
Date: Mon, Apr 28 2008 05:17:20
hand notations confuse me already. and you still want to expand it? man this might make me quit psing....i hope not.. im also confused about passarounds and stuff
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Date: Mon, Apr 28 2008 05:32:57
The use of Passaround is discouraged anyway, see the wiki. Passaround wiki page.
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Date: Mon, Apr 28 2008 05:35:31
@Xero: only if the pen actually travels over the back of the hand. Also, you don't have to fit in the P or B if a trick is already known to pass over that part of the hand. You can use the notation to try to make it more clear about where the pen goes. In the case of hybrids you have more options of telling where the pen is during a change of trick.
Example: Backaround 12-T1 still works just fine. If you wanted to be more precise, you could also say: Backaround 12-B-T1 just to make sure that you show that the pen moves over the back of the hand.
@Clyde: I don't see how it can be very confusing.
Previous hand parts: T=thumb, 1=index, 2=middle, 3=ring, 4=pinky
Current hand parts: T=thumb, 1=index, 2=middle, 3=ring, 4=pinky, P=palm, B=back of hand
Passaround is no longer recommended, so you shouldn't worry about that. But, just to make it clear: 1/2 of a Fingeraround was called a Passaround, now it's just called 1/2 of a Fingeraround. -
Date: Tue, Apr 29 2008 03:10:29
Would using this new notation get rid of using PalmSpin?
Let's say I did a TA T1 -> PalmSpin 0.5 (Catch 34)
Would that be notated as TA T1-P0.5-34 or something? -
Date: Tue, Apr 29 2008 04:27:49
I would prefer to keep Palmspin, it doesn't make much sense saying a Thumbaround went on your palm.
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Date: Tue, Apr 29 2008 07:18:51
@sketching
oh...well i was confused with passarounds before because it just looks like a pass rev 23-12...or 34-23...oh well -
Date: Tue, Apr 29 2008 12:41:35QUOTE (Xero @ Apr 28 2008, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Would using this new notation get rid of using PalmSpin?
Let's say I did a TA T1 -> PalmSpin 0.5 (Catch 34)
Would that be notated as TA T1-P0.5-34 or something?
I think Palmspin still stays
think about it.
ThumbAround T1... isn't that redundant? You're saying the trick is gonna use the Thumb in the name ThumbAround, yet you still notate T1?
therefore you can always notate PalmSpin P-34 and be redundant. -
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2008 02:54:15QUOTE (Zombo @ Apr 29 2008, 07:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think Palmspin still stays
think about it.
ThumbAround T1... isn't that redundant? You're saying the trick is gonna use the Thumb in the name ThumbAround, yet you still notate T1?
therefore you can always notate PalmSpin P-34 and be redundant.
No, it's not redundant because you can have TA T1, T2, T3, T4, and FL. -
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2008 15:30:20QUOTE (Xero @ Apr 28 2008, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Would using this new notation get rid of using PalmSpin?
Let's say I did a TA T1 -> PalmSpin 0.5 (Catch 34)
Would that be notated as TA T1-P0.5-34 or something?
1. The pen starts spinning on the thumb, in one position, for a single Around trick.
2. As it moves to the palm, a new Top Spin trick is started as both the location of the pen and the hand position have changed.
The same would be said for something like Thumbspin 1.0 ~ Fulltap 1.0: even though it may be a slighter change in top-spin location. The pen is spinning stationary in one location, then moved to a new location.
I would say that your above example could be either:
Thumbaround T1-P[p][s 1.0] ~ Palmspin P-34 [s 0.5][c] (which assumes that the full Thumbaround is done through the T1 slot before passing to the palm)
-- (informal notation) TA 1.0 T1-P ~ PS 0.5 P-34
or
Thumbaround T1-T1-P[p][s 1.0] ~ Palmspin P-34 [s 0.5][c] (explicitly stating that the pen passes through the T1 slot before going to the palm)
-- (informal notation) TA 1.0 T1-T1-P ~ PS 0.5 P-34
Addition:
Hmm. Combining Xero's post with what I just said above about the TS ~ Fulltap. Things like Neobackarounds and Shadows, that travel finger slots while performing (mostly likely) more than 0.5 spins, would then have to be split into more than one trick. The pen would be spinning in a single location (back of the hand) in between the 1/2 spin of the Fingeraround push and 1/2 spin of the Shadow catch.
I'm sticking to my answer for your original example Xero, but now I'm not completely sure the my own additional example. >_< -
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2008 17:28:35
I really like how the informal notation looks.
- TA 1.0 T1-P ~> PS 0.5 P-34
Writing PalmSpin notation was a bit tricky for me, but I like how P can be used to notate Palm.
I REALLY like using the notation like that.
I think using the new notation like THAT would make breakdowns a lot easier.
NeoSonic 0.5 12-T1 -> FL TA Rev T1-P ~> PalmSpin 0.5 P-34 -> PinkyBackAround 34-34
I think using P would be nice as slot usage, instead of using it to specify individual trick movement. -
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2008 23:35:43QUOTE (Xero @ May 1 2008, 05:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think using the new notation like THAT would make breakdowns a lot easier.
NeoSonic 0.5 12-T1 -> FL TA Rev T1-P ~> PalmSpin 0.5 P-34 -> PinkyBackAround 34-34
I think using P would be nice as slot usage, instead of using it to specify individual trick movement.
I thought that was how it was intended to be used anyway? At least, that was how I thought it was supposed to be used. -
Date: Thu, May 1 2008 00:07:40
I think standardization of notation is good, and the P & B denotations could provide some clarity for some ambiguous situations. I think that notation should be specific and precise enough that someone could visualize exactly what the combo looks like, just from reading a breakdown. This expansion is useful for that, in my opinion.
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Date: Fri, May 2 2008 18:47:14
i think that the notation alone will inspire people to make new ways of creating tricks~~~which would certainly make the new notation worth it. It seems to me as though there r too many unoriginal pen spinners (not that i am original...) nowadays, and not enough fratleyms...
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Date: Thu, Jun 5 2008 18:15:12
And what about adding W for the Wrist to the Expanded Hand Notation?
I think that was Sketching's idea, but he said me it was not official (in What Am I Doing, i think). -
Date: Fri, Jun 6 2008 06:40:25
i second the wrist thing
but for say a palm spin up on the fingers... would it just be an inverse shadow type hybrid?