UPSB v3
Philosophy / Pen mods: original parts VS substitutes/changes
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Date: Mon, May 12 2008 05:25:37QUOTE (TEK @ May 10 2008, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>a kt with biefa grips isn't a kt?
an mx with anyball grip isn't an mx?
its the same thing as saying wcy's kt isn't a kt because he didn't use sailor grips (yellow)
and the right dr. grip tips...QUOTE (nateiskewl @ May 10 2008, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes and yes.QUOTE (TEK @ May 10 2008, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>exactly...@Tek: I read nateiskewl's response as agreeing with the questions, not your opinion, I might be wrong about that though.
Anyway, here's my thoughts...QUOTEa kt with biefa grips isn't a kt?Correct, it's not a proper Dr. KT.QUOTEan mx with anyball grip isn't an mx?Correct, it's not a proper RSVP MX.
If you don't use a originally designed pen mod parts, you have a different pen mod, even if it's just a variation on the original. The pen mod was designed a certain way, with certain pen parts, for a certain reason. If you use something else, you did not make the creator's pen mod, you just made something similar to the pen mod. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 05:28:25
So your saying using something such as Colortwins instead of Keicho pens would
no be making a dr. kt because is was supposed to be made with keicho? cuz thats
what it sounds like your saying. Its close enough in my book just as long as you dont
stray far enough for anyone to say anything -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 05:36:17
@tylt: In that case I would say it's quite different, since you are not using the pens that are used in the title of the pen mod itself: KT = KeiTyo.
I'm not saying that a variation is automatically worse or not worthy, just that it is different than the original, since different pens are used. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 05:38:44QUOTE (sketching @ May 12 2008, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you don't use a originally designed pen mod parts, you have a different pen mod, even if it's just a variation on the original. The pen mod was designed a certain way, with certain pen parts, for a certain reason. If you use something else, you did not make the creator's pen mod, you just made something similar to the pen mod.
I agree with this, but I'm unsure of what these variations should be called. Should they be referred to with the same name as the original, or withvariation? The latter seems like a hassle. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 05:44:52
@Rorix: I try to state that's it's variation and how it's different. With that said, I do get lazy quite often in the case of the HCMX. I do say "HCMX" too much instead of saying that it's the simplified version of it. >_< If I'm paying attention, I try to say "simplified HCMX" and link to the HCMX wiki article with both versions.
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Date: Mon, May 12 2008 06:45:04
I must agree with Sketching...using different pens than the original created by the inventor is not the same as the mod. Even if the variation is minor or no worse (and sometimes even better than the original), it's still a variation.
I'm not saying variations are bad, or that you should call or treat them differently. But I don't think you should say they're the same. In fact, I think only the inventor can really say if another mod is the same or not. I personally don't see color variations as being a different mod (as long as it uses the same parts), but some modders may think differently (specially if, say, the colors are a distinctive trait of the mod).
Some modders put a lot of time into their mods, while others are more loose about them. I'll take the RSVP MX for example, since it's one of my most well-known mods.
If you use a different grip than the HGG, you probably wouldn't want to call it a new name, but the mod is no longer as intended, because (for example, using an Anyball grip) you are changing the look and costs of the pen. You may like it better that way, but that's beside the point. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 07:52:59
its funny how you say, yes it is a new mod when you use different materials then the original mod.
and i know what you mean by it.
but i just see how some people make new mod that are fairly similar to a previous mod, but you will see there will be a million replys saying that
"i wouldn't consider that a new mod"
but anyways,
what about a color twin and a kietyo
i mean they are pretty much exactly the same if you gut them out.
and i mean, ya ct...kt names...but if that first person that made a CT, could he have just made up a totally different name and not go with Ryos Dr. ...
the guy could have just called it "Monster pen" because it was a new mod..
would there be different tutorials on a ct and kt mod?
as for just grips...
what if someone made a mold of an hgg grip with the exact rubber material and metal tip and made an mx with them.
would that be considered a different mod? its not nessesarily using an hgg..
but whatever
im not looking for an answer. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 08:59:21
if using a different grip, tip etc. would mean the pen is 'different' would that mean using different amount of grip would make a difference? like in Dr.KT i think the original is 3 Red, 2 Gray, 2 Red, 2 Gray, 8 Red. (not caring about colors) if you use 2 red, 2 gray, 2 red... would that mean it should not be called Dr.KT? its a small difference but it is 'different' to the creator's original mod.
and in pens like 'ayatori mod' shouldn't that mean noone actually made that mod except ayatori? i'm not 100% sure but isn't ayatori mod have that name because it was made/spun by ayatori? so if someone else makes/spins it, it shouldn't be called 'Ayatori mod' -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 09:04:26
Pen modding is all about customizing a pen such that you are comfortable spinning with it. So people make their own variations on popular mods to suit their personal preferences, and sometimes due to lack of pen parts. So technically it shouldn't be called the original mod, but for convinience's sake, most people just call it
+ For example, Signo-tipped mx. Just my 2 cents. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 10:28:48
so what if someone changes the grips, or maybe tips? okay body matters and caps, and maybe tips, but there are some changes that just don't matter that much.
like it's such a big deal,so you can't call it the same name anymore?!
gah -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 13:05:58
there are pragmatic reasons for being more loose when calling "approximations" the same name:
if every slight change is a new mod, ppl who create those variations will claim it as a new mod and perharps even post a new thread about it, and ppl will most likely reply that "it's not really a new mod".
if we don't consider variations as new mods, ppl are less likely to consider them as new.
also it inflates the number of names to remember. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 14:13:02
Why don't we just toss this question over to the naming committee and just do something similiar to the trick naming system.
ex: [base mod] [retractable/non] [body] [caps] [grips] [OPTIONAL: Tips]
K4S's MX-153 mod
[RSVP MX] [R] [RSVP] [HGG(1)-RSVP(1)] [HGG tip]
Dr. Kt Variation using beifa and a comSSa body
[Dr. KT] [N] [Dong-a Sign Pen] [Keicho] [Sailor(3)] [ Japanese Shaker tips]
not saying that this method is perfect, but if people are going to bicker about what to call pen variations. You might as well. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 14:24:47
I think as long as it gets similar performance it should be called the same. That's like having a Honda Civic and we changed a minor part, lets say a wiper blade, with a third party one, do we no longer have a Honda Civic? It's still reasonable to call the car a Honda Civic.As long as the concept is the same I think they should be the same mod.
That's just my 2 cents. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 14:51:13QUOTE (Awesome @ May 12 2008, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think as long as it gets similar performance it should be called the same. That's like having a Honda Civic and we changed a minor part, lets say a wiper blade, with a third party one, do we no longer have a Honda Civic? It's still reasonable to call the car a Honda Civic.As long as the concept is the same I think they should be the same mod.
That's just my 2 cents.
That is the worst comparison I've ever heard. Cars have MANY more parts than pen mods. You're comparing apples and oranges. Lets say you have an true RSVP MX, you decide change the tip to a signo, it's much different now, the balance point has changed, it looks different, etc. How is it the same mod? -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 16:27:16QUOTE (Zombo @ May 12 2008, 08:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>there are pragmatic reasons for being more loose when calling "approximations" the same name:
if every slight change is a new mod, ppl who create those variations will claim it as a new mod and perharps even post a new thread about it, and ppl will most likely reply that "it's not really a new mod".
if we don't consider variations as new mods, ppl are less likely to consider them as new.
also it inflates the number of names to remember.
ya i agree with zombo.
there are always going to be variations
and its ok to call it the same orginal mod if it is still similar
so out of all this how the subject came up.
that ayatori mod that that one guy posted was an ayatori mod
so its all norices fault for saying its not
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Date: Mon, May 12 2008 19:54:39
I think if we did that naming system similar to the trick naming that it is making it way more complex than it needs to be...If you have an MX with an Anyball grip, than if someone asks what it is, just say MX, will it really make that much of a difference? Yes, it is not made with the intended parts, but it is still the same mod customized a bit. I don't think it would really make a difference if someone had a different part uneless you were selling them or something in which case you could describe the mod.
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Date: Mon, May 12 2008 20:11:23
An Anyball grip has a different look, feel and shape to it than the Hgybrid Gel Grip grip, using one grip over another makes for a different spinning experience. Replacing the HGG tip with a Signo tip further changes the look and feel as the larger tip moves the COP forward. Same thing goes for using a cut peice of RSVP grip behind the original grip to extend it, or using a G2 grip. In my mind, they are different from the original mod, and should be stated as such, but not be given new names as they are slight variations of the original. I just like seeing changes properly accounted for so that everyone is on the same page.
@Tek: I'm not for giving variations new names (like the Anyball MX, G2 MX, Profile MX, Star Gels MX, etc...) but I am for stating any differences used when showing a mod that is similar to a previously-created mod with some changes.
I havan't paid too much attention to Ayatori mods and/or Ayatori-like mods since the cut-up grip looks ugly to me (). It seems like any mod with a cut-up grip on the front is an "Ayatori ..." mod. I really don't care to see people naming off Ayatori MXs, Ayatori Lakubos, Ayatori Monami 153S Retractables, etc... if all they did was add a grip.
A naming sytem for pen mods seems a bit too much what with the possibilites of using multiple grips inside and outside the pens, stickers & inserts inside & out, different tips inside * out, etc... If you make a variation on a known pen mod, I suggest you simply say so and list how it differed.
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I've withheld stating the other reason since people seem to get rather annoyed at me for it. It's also about giving proper credit when using a mod creator's original plans versus giving proper credit when you deviate from those plans for your own personal preferences. This comes from my previous interest in GUI modding and skinning. The communities I come from tried hard to always give credit for any portions of others' work used in their own personal skins that they show screenshots of and try to get permission from the original authors beforehand if they release that work.
That is why I was so pushy when it came to inserts and credit, since that was most familiar for me compared to my past experiences. I feel the design work of pen mods are also similar and I feel that describing how a personal mod deviates from the original mod just makes sense. -
Date: Mon, May 12 2008 20:44:48QUOTE (nateiskewl @ May 12 2008, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That is the worst comparison I've ever heard. Cars have MANY more parts than pen mods. You're comparing apples and oranges. Lets say you have an true RSVP MX, you decide change the tip to a signo, it's much different now, the balance point has changed, it looks different, etc. How is it the same mod?
You can completely change a car to. Let's swap out the engine, turbo or super charge it. Give it a tranny overhaul, new suspension, new tires and rims. Give it a paint job, redo the interior and put in a stereo system and anything else you want. You would of completely changed the performance, appearance and would of changed more of it proportionally then signo tipping an MX yet it would still be called a Honda Civic.
Now it would be stupid to allow this in pen mods, if you bought a pre-made pen mod you could easily get ripped because of substitutes. I think just stating the variations would suffice like sketching said.
I guess it is a bad to compare cars and pens, but you can't call a slight variation in something "new".
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Date: Mon, May 12 2008 23:06:47
I think what people find annoying is when someone posts a pic of their MX that has an anyball grip someone corrects them says "thats not an true MX cause it does not have HGG grip" or if someone posts a Dr.KT made with color twins people say "NO thats a Dr. CT" Its obvious what the poster meant and theres no need to correct them on it. If Im talking in real life about my anyball-gripped MX, Im still gonna call it my MX. None of my friends are gonna correct me on that since its obvious that it is a variation with an anyball grip.