UPSB v3
Serious Discussion / Religion
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Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 05:08:00
Why do people look towards religion? Is it a sense of stability? Maybe they need someone/something to guide them? I just want to ask this general question, I don't want any conversation on any religion in specific, this thread will not be a ball of flames. Nor will I tolerate any bashing on ones religion we all have our opinions and I expect that we will all be adult enough to respect those opinions.
My personal view is that people have two ways of coming into a religion, either they are looking for some sense of stability or a sense of family and brethren. Or in the other case, they are born into it and from the start that's what they're told to believe. -
Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 05:45:40
Yeah, I agree. I'm not big on religion, I'm more of a scientist kinda guy. I do believe in some teachings, but everything else is just beyond me.
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Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 05:50:23
I believe that in addition to basic needs we all know of (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_...archy_of_needs), there is an extra category, perhaps inside psychological, called "spiritual needs". It is the need of being able to have faith, a strong conviction in some entity/concept without providing "facts" to support that belief.
this need may stem from the curiosity of the human to have an answer to every question, even those not explained yet (by science). Spirituality give you an answer to almost everything, so it fills that need ("fear of the unknown"). I think this is really obvious in ancient times to explain the presence of unexplained phenomenon such as lightning, fire, etc. Even today we still have unanswered questions such as the meaning of life, afterlife, etc.
I also think that not everybody have that need with the same level of intensity. I guess you could say you can develop that need, just like one can develop his/her musical need and/or his/her drug need. -
Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 05:55:15
religion is one thing
but the church itself, i have some issues with
i feel that they're a brainwashing institution -
Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 06:55:27
Religions are made for people to believe in something to make their life worth living. Personally, religion is greatly impacted in my life. I am a catholic who believes in my religion. To me, my religion helps me calm myself, plan carefully, and live carefully. You can say what you want; religion is worthless, etc. Buhh believing in something isn't a crime.
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Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 07:12:05
Well, I have this friend who told me his mom is one of those people that says, "If I didn't have God in my life, I just don't know what to do". He explained that his mom needed to pray everyday, to have that feeling that someone is out there listening to her. Not only that, but the Christian way of life is a means to give stability to her life. Without it, she simply would not be able to function, according to her. It seems that she needs religion just to be stable in her daily life. In this case, it seems that religion is not only a way to explain the unexplained, but a way to supply comfort and stability in their life.
I personally don't need an external source to help me stabilize my life. I usually just rely on just willpower to make sense out of all the things that happen to me daily, so I don't need a religion in that sense. I also don't need a religion to explain the unexplained because I prefer a more scientific approach for explanations. I also don't need a religion to tell me what is good and what is not. Usually that is dependent on the culture you live within.
Final thought: believe in what you want. Don't impose your system onto others. -
Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 15:29:59QUOTE (Eso @ Jul 15 2008, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In this case, it seems that religion is not only a way to explain the unexplained, but a way to supply comfort and stability in their life.
by explaining the unexplained, the believer feel comforted and stabilized -
Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 17:44:23
First let me say that not all Christians are the hardcore type who believe in Christianity in exclusion to everything else. I'm Roman Catholic but I use science to explain natural phenomena. If I fall seriously ill, I'm going to take medicine instead of praying. To me, my religion is the source of my faith, and I think it's important that everyone has a spiritual side otherwise what is your purpose on Earth? What is the meaning of your life?
Christianity helps me build character and personal integrity by instilling desirable traits. Unfortunately, a materialistic, mostly atheist society that cares not can make it very difficult living as a Christian. You try applying the fundamental tenet "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" only to see selfish people try to take whatever they can from you without reciprocating. This is but one example that has made me give up on society at large. -
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 14:29:53
This post is based around Christianity, especially Catholicism.
Personally, I am Catholic but I do not believe in 'God'.
I do not rule out a possiblility of a 'god' like thing creating the universe or anything, I just don't believe in Christianity or a Christian God.
To me it seems like there are things with small loopholes in them, which would go against other things in the religion, but then there is something there just to plug up that loophole. It just doesn't seem right to me, seems to be too convenient.
I'm not sure if you know what I mean, but that's what I think.
It's interesting though, because I go to a Catholic school, so I get taught religion. Religion at my school is pretty much just learning about 'God' and yourself and the Holy Spirit and stuff. Funny thing is, most people hate having to do the subjects, yet they say that they believe in God.
These are some of reasons why I think some people believe in God:- They grow up in a community of Christians, the possiblities of there not being a God would never occur to the person, how could everybody be wrong?
- They are afraid of going to 'hell'. Seriously, this is the reason which I think a fair few people say that they believe in God, they think 'If God really does exist and I say I don't believe in him, I will go to hell'.
- They really just believe it, because they have faith.
- They need something to believe in.
- They don't want to be called a witch and burned at the stake
I don't really need to have a belief in things. Some people do, and I'm fine with that, whatever works for them.
Hardcore Catholics sometime annoy me though (like WYD). I heard that some people were crying when the cross got to them, sounds weird to me though considering that it's not the actual cross or anything.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I think that I'm right, I did not mean it to sound like that, I'm just trying to throw out my opinion from a non-believer's POV.
EDIT: Looking at Tialys' post, I just decided to add: Some morals central to Christianity are morals which all people should live by, I'm not trying to say that everything in Christianity is wrong.
I'm not a religious expert or anything, so go easy if I said something you don't like. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 07:59:05
To me, religion is my way of life and the set of beliefs that I view true. I couldn't really say that "without it, I don't know what I would do with myself" or "I need it to explain the unknown, or it will remain unknown; it's good to know more", or anything similar. It's true that some of points given are true - people are raised going to church so they eventually stick with it, they're afraid of going to hell, or they do it to fill a void in their life. Personally I've been forced to go to church as a child, but I'm grateful that I was, because it has made me who I am today, and I'm glad I turned out the way I have. You can say that it's been "drilled into my head" or "forced upon me" but I'm not an idiot, I have my own opinions, and I actually happen to see this as extremely valid from a non-biased viewpoint. I can easily see why people would bash religions, and I guess they're entitled to their own opinions; I like to give information that COULD convert them but by no means do I force it on anyone.
As for believing in your religion, I say it's either all-or-nothing; you can't believe only parts of a religion and call yourself a follower, you're just getting an inspiration from the religion or something and mixing it with your own opinions or beliefs from somewhere else. For a simple example: I believe in heaven of course, but that means I also believe in hell (that it exists) because it's also in the bible. Now I bet some people think: "Well the bible says that you should be this and that and a good person and everything, but you obviously don't do it all, so you're not a 'true believer'". I do bad things all the time and stray from the righteous path, but I do believe that everything in the bible is a fact and try my best. My opinion can be called extremely biased when it comes towards religion because I basically believe "mine is right, yours is wrong" but the main point of having different religions is that people believe different things.
Anyway, referring to Tialys' post, natural phenomena such as getting sick, and many things that involve science I believe are true, because it's completely observable. I heard a quote from a really cheesy thing in church that was something along the lines of "Christianity and science work together easily in the sense that you're closely observing the things that God has created in this world". I hate it when scientists try to explain the unknown by throwing around stupid theories like spontaneous generation (in the past), and everyone is amazed by it. But when a Christian explains things according to the bible, which are equally "observably unproven", everyone gets upset and will make fun of or insult that person.
tldr: People don't "resort" to religion, they believe in it. They don't come crawling for safety or prosperity, they come to live a righteous way of life, which happens to be rewarded on earth and in the afterlife. They don't believe bits and pieces, they believe it all with all their heart. It might be hard for some to understand some things, as it's a feeling that you can only truely understand unless you've felt it. And by this feeling I'm talking about the love of God, and the feeling of the religion of Christianity as a whole.
I realize that 90% of my post is just rambling on about what I believe, but hopefully some of it can be used to pertain to the topic at hand. Also, although my beliefs are different from Tialys' (I'm a Baptist), I really respect him because his post has a lot of meaning and he can explain things that I'm not skilled enough to explain in words. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 09:50:41
You can see that people need religion only by the number of threads about religion on here ;-)
But the reason people need religion is not so clear.
I think the most important reason for people to look towards religion is to feel safe and accepted. Religion can bring people together when a lot of people think the same (and go to the same place such as a church). If you think the same as a lot of people that can make you feel accepted. But also if you think that God is there for you that can make you feel accepted (and safe).
I think that also those who think they don't need religion because there is science, have their religion. They believe that science is their God. Or maby themselves are God. Although they might not call it so.
I think science can only discover rules or laws that nature follows, but not the reason why there are rules or laws. Science can tell that the universe was made by a “big bang†but not what was the reason for that big bang. Religions try to explain why those rules exist.
Personally I don't think things are “good†or “badâ€. To me those are just feelings people linked to situations. But everyone can link feelings to situations differently.
I do also believe that you can make life easier for yourself by minding the laws of nature. It's not bad not to mind them, you're just helping yourself by doing so.
And a bit off topic:QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 15 2008, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If I fall seriously ill, I'm going to take medicine instead of praying.
When you're sick / ill, your body is telling you that you don't follow the laws of nature. By taking a pill you tell your body to stop telling you what you do “wrong†but probably that's not a long term solution.
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Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 09:52:19QUOTEspontaneous generation (in the past), and everyone is amazed by it. But when a Christian explains things according to the bible, which are equally "observably unproven", everyone gets upset and will make fun of or insult that person.
I think this is a bit of an unfair example, since the spontaneous generation idea really came before proper use of the scientific method, which is the foundation of modern science. You can't use examples of 400 years ago to back up claims of today.QUOTEbut I do believe that everything in the bible is a fact
Two questions: Do you believe that God created the heavens and the Earth, or do you believe the big bang theory? Do you believe in God creating all creatures or in evolution? I just think these are two examples in which science and religion really greatly collide and I would like to hear your opinion on that.
Lastly, if alien life were ever to be discovered, would that lead you to question religion? After all, no life on other worlds is mentioned in any religion by the words of God. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 09:59:44
Mats, cannot God have created the heavens and the Earth through the big bang? Cannot God have created all creatures by evolution? And can't God just not have told about "aliens" because there was no need to? Or can't it be that people didn't want to hear it?
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Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 10:10:30QUOTE (fairy @ Jul 20 2008, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Mats, cannot God have created the heavens and the Earth through the big bang? Cannot God have created all creatures by evolution? And can't God just not have told about "aliens" because there was no need to? Or can't it be that people didn't want to hear it?
The description of the creation of the heavens and the Earth in the big bang theory and the description in the bible do not agree on the facts and so cannot both be correct. For instance, the big bang theory suggests the entire universe, all dimensions, matter, anti-matter and all forms of energy all came at once, whereas in the bible there are definate intervals at which various things were created (at first the Earth existed, then it existed with light, then it existed with waters etc).
I believe the bible suggests that all of humanity were descended of Adam and Eve (just two people). According to genetics, a species born of just two parents would not survive due to inbreeding. The bible also suggests that the trees and plants came first whereas evolution states that micro-organisms come first.
All in all, I think the two theories are incompatable and it really is a 'one or the other' situation. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 14:43:58QUOTE (jux @ Jul 20 2008, 03:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I hate it when scientists try to explain the unknown by throwing around stupid theories like spontaneous generation (in the past), and everyone is amazed by it. But when a Christian explains things according to the bible, which are equally "observably unproven", everyone gets upset and will make fun of or insult that person.
you've just answered your own question:QUOTEThey don't believe bits and pieces, they believe it all with all their heart.
a non-believer cannot possible understand a Christian's reasoning, since in order to do that, they need to believe it all with all their heart, as you said. On the other hand, science can be believed by bits and pieces. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 14:51:32QUOTE (Mats @ Jul 20 2008, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>All in all, I think the two theories are incompatable and it really is a 'one or the other' situation.
But not all the time.
I personally believe that religion does not and cannot provide a satisfactory answer to many of life's mysteries, much of which has been solved by scienctific inquiry. However, we still do not know many things, i.e is there an afterlife? Which is where religion comes in, for example Christianity. Believe in God, and you shall go to heaven. That is probably the only reason I believe in Christianity. Because we do not know many things, and IMO you dont have anything to lose just by believing in a certain religion, especially one which promises a Sugar Candy Mountain after death. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 14:55:34
that's a decent position gunblakes
I personally believe it'd be cool if there was something after life, but if there isn't, too bad. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 14:58:18QUOTE (Zombo @ Jul 20 2008, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>that's a decent position gunblakes
I personally believe it'd be cool if there was something after life, but if there isn't, too bad.
I dont even go to church etc, I just adopt this pragmatic approach. I dont think this conflicts with other religions either(e.g you dont get sent to some Hindu-hell for believing in the Christian God), so I guess its decent enough.
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Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 15:17:16QUOTE (fairy @ Jul 20 2008, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think the most important reason for people to look towards religion is to feel safe and accepted. Religion can bring people together when a lot of people think the same (and go to the same place such as a church). If you think the same as a lot of people that can make you feel accepted. But also if you think that God is there for you that can make you feel accepted (and safe).
Are you sure? You can also feel accepted by acting like the majority of society, which may be atheistic, so validation is one of religion's minor functions. Religion is faith in the non-physical and is akin to a philosophy in that it offers its believers direction in life. It's a road map to experiencing the world.QUOTE (fairy @ Jul 20 2008, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think that also those who think they don't need religion because there is science, have their religion. They believe that science is their God. Or maby themselves are God. Although they might not call it so.
Strictly speaking, science is not a religion because it does not contain supernatural elements. This is why science and religion co-exist and you can hold beliefs in both. You can believe that science is the manifestation of God's will. What you can't do is disprove one using the other since faith cannot be reasoned.QUOTE (fairy @ Jul 20 2008, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Personally I don't think things are “good†or “badâ€. To me those are just feelings people linked to situations. But everyone can link feelings to situations differently.
So you believe that our notion of good or evil is derived from how we feel about the situation? I do agree that 'good' or 'bad' comes from an agreement between many people but this judgment is determined from the nature of the act itself. For example, humans may perversely enjoy violence even though they realize it is evil.QUOTE (fairy @ Jul 20 2008, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I do also believe that you can make life easier for yourself by minding the laws of nature. It's not bad not to mind them, you're just helping yourself by doing so.
It's not so much making life easier than preventing it from becoming difficult. For instance, China chose to take engineering shortcuts during the construction of buildings and later paid when earthquakes hit. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 15:21:51QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 20 2008, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Are you sure? You can also feel accepted by acting like the majority of society, which may be atheistic, so validation is one of religion's minor functions. Religion is faith in the non-physical and is akin to a philosophy in that it offers its believers direction in life. It's a road map to experiencing the world.
Since religion has been on a decline in the past century, it's safe to say that belonging to a religious group immerses you in a closely-knit community where ppl disregards differences and are united by faith only. It is akin to pen spinners feeling accepted for their PS prowess.QUOTEStrictly speaking, science is not a religion because it does not contain supernatural elements. This is why science and religion co-exist and you can hold beliefs in both. You can believe that science is the manifestation of God's will. What you can't do is disprove one using the other since faith cannot be reasoned.
I think you're begging the question. Supernatural can be defined as "Anything unexplained by science or not in accordance to a science". -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 19:17:04QUOTE (Zombo @ Jul 20 2008, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Since religion has been on a decline in the past century, it's safe to say that belonging to a religious group immerses you in a closely-knit community where ppl disregards differences and are united by faith only. It is akin to pen spinners feeling accepted for their PS prowess.
Yes, but I don't see that as a main reason for joining a faith. You join a religion because you share its beliefs. You join a PS community because you share a common interest with others, not necessarily to feel accepted as a spinner. Acceptance is a perquisite of the community rather than a reason to join. If you join a group for validation, you are simply insecure about yourself.QUOTE (Zombo @ Jul 20 2008, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think you're begging the question. Supernatural can be defined as "Anything unexplained by science or not in accordance to a science".
Religion is belief in the supernatural. Supernaturalism transcends natural laws and is distinct from science, which is concerned with explaining the natural world. Therefore science is not a religion. Defining something by what it is not doesn't amount to an actual definition, otherwise circular reasoning would appear in many arguments. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 19:19:10
who wrote the bible?
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Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 21:11:55
Zombo: Yeah okay, but I'd rather believe something that is all-fact than something that I have to nitpick at. You honestly confused me though, I didn't ask a question and I don't see 100% what you're getting at.
Mats: I believe God created everything, I don't believe in the Big Bang theory, and as far as evolution goes: people and animals adapt to their environment and obviously the best survive, but the whole single celled organisms evolving into monkeys that evolve into humans or whatever you wanna say, I don't believe it. I'd hate to go into detail on this matter as it's extremely controversial and there's tons and tons of long arguments and I honestly am not extremely well versed in the theory and teachings of the bible. As for aliens, I wouldn't be surprised if they existed. That does not disprove anything in the bible; the bible does NOT contain all the information of this world and the next. Some people have a misconception that the bible contains all answers but some things either don't have a point to being mentioned, or were not meant to be known by us.
Zombo: My area is known for having more religious activity, mainly Christian, than other parts of the US. A big chunk of the south is part of the bible belt, and my town is no exception. People don't cling to a group of fellow Christians to feel accepted in a closely knit group or anything like that even though that might be an easily possible benefit.
fairy: I think there is absolute good and absolute evil. Things might seem good to you but in reality hurt others. An opinion of an open-minded individual or a majority of people isn't enough to justify right and wrong.
shadowserpant: The bible is separated into books, each written by a different person (well there's some people that wrote several books, such as Moses). But, most importantly, the bible is the word of God, written by Him, and inspired by Him. He did not physically write it, but His followers have. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 21:23:01QUOTE (jux @ Jul 20 2008, 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Zombo: Yeah okay, but I'd rather believe something that is all-fact than something that I have to nitpick at. You honestly confused me though, I didn't ask a question and I don't see 100% what you're getting at.
I was trying to explain the difference between science and religion and why people have opposite reactions when both attempt to explain the same issues.QUOTEDefining something by what it is not doesn't amount to an actual definition, otherwise circular reasoning would appear in many arguments.
supernatural means "above nature" and simply means any events which cannot be explained by the current laws of nature. I see no problem with this definition. "Uncuttable" means something which does not cut, care to give me a definition which is not negative? -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 23:16:24QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 20 2008, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes, but I don't see that as a main reason for joining a faith. You join a religion because you share its beliefs. You join a PS community because you share a common interest with others, not necessarily to feel accepted as a spinner. Acceptance is a perquisite of the community rather than a reason to join. If you join a group for validation, you are simply insecure about yourself.
I highly agree with the statement above, this pretty much encompasses my belief on religion.QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 20 2008, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>who wrote the bible?
A genius. -
Date: Sun, Jul 20 2008 23:17:40QUOTE (Zombo @ Jul 20 2008, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>supernatural means "above nature" and simply means any events which cannot be explained by the current laws of nature. I see no problem with this definition.
Neither do I, but science and nature are not the same thing. Science is currently unable to explain many things but this doesn't mean these phenomena are supernatural. But religion can't be explained by science because religion is transcendent; it is not subject to that judgment. There are arguments on both sides for instances when science and religion conflict and whatever you believe is up to you. Religion and science don't agree at times, but there is no reason they can't co-exist. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 00:09:53QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 20 2008, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Neither do I, but science and nature are not the same thing. Science is currently unable to explain many things but this doesn't mean these phenomena are supernatural.
I am arguing the point that "supernatural -> not explained by science", not "not explained by science -> supernatural": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_Consequent
I have a neutral stance in religion, all I care about is that people reason with sound arguments. I am merely trying to point out flaws/weaknesses in everybody's reasonings, regardless of their stance on religion. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 08:26:21
Is there a difference between BELIEVING and JOINING a religion? I.e merely believing in the Christian God, as opposed to joining a Christian community and engaging in religious activites.(going to church, etc)
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Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 15:07:53QUOTE (Gunblakes @ Jul 21 2008, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Is there a difference between BELIEVING and JOINING a religion? I.e merely believing in the Christian God, as opposed to joining a Christian community and engaging in religious activites.(going to church, etc)
yes.
some may believe in God, but dislike religion and religious activities.
some may take part in religious activies, but not believe in God, either because they're forced (by their parents) or they want to feel accepted (same concept as group smoking).
some do both
some do none. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 23:21:53
well, people wrote the bible right? i feel like... sometimes i think the church in general just goes too far with its ideals, and it instills it in people's minds. for example, why would god care about adultry? did marriage exists when the first human beings were created (however u believe that to have happened)? Other animals commit adultry all the time, why would god have created humans differently? and then there's the catholic church saying god doesn't approve of condoms. since when? when the hell did god tell us he didnt like condoms? when were condoms invented, anyway?
i mean, if i saw a book float down from the sky on a beam of light that said "The Bible" by God, then i'd convert instantly.
and then i see people with those signs saying God hates fags...
i find that most people who have problems with homosexuality are religious
seeing as AoD just called Mats and me abominations
how does that make sense? God made us, didnt he? are you saying God made a mistake or something? -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 23:28:23
The bible has a passage (can't cite exact location off the top of my head) where it says it is a sin to waste semen, so that's where people get that from.
God does not hate gays (as the bible states god loves everyone) but according to the bible, they will still go to hell because the bible says homosexuality is a sin.
The bible says sin existed in the first place because of man disobeying god (ate the fruit from the tree), so it's not a mistake on God's part - it is man's. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 23:30:32
then people should be equally opposed to anal, oral, and auto sex
which some are, but most are not
btw forgive me, some of the questions i ask are actually questions, because i dont know too much about the bible and stuff
EDIT: auto... does that work? w/e i mean masturbation -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:00:02QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well, people wrote the bible right? i feel like... sometimes i think the church in general just goes too far with its ideals, and it instills it in people's minds. for example, why would god care about adultry? did marriage exists when the first human beings were created (however u believe that to have happened)? Other animals commit adultry all the time, why would god have created humans differently? and then there's the catholic church saying god doesn't approve of condoms. since when? when the hell did god tell us he didnt like condoms? when were condoms invented, anyway?
i mean, if i saw a book float down from the sky on a beam of light that said "The Bible" by God, then i'd convert instantly.
and then i see people with those signs saying God hates fags...
i find that most people who have problems with homosexuality are religious
seeing as AoD just called Mats and me abominations
how does that make sense? God made us, didnt he? are you saying God made a mistake or something?
Adultery is somewhat vague, but it includes sex before or marriage, or things of that nature. It's a violation of commitment and isn't healthy for the soul. Small things can always lead into bigger things, and it doesn't always just matter between yourself and God, other people can be affected somehow in certain situations. If you get married to a woman, would you want her cheating on you, masturbating to porn (other guys), or lusting after other people? It's just a bad habit and something that's usually undesirable, at least by people such as myself.
Marriage didn't really exist when humans were created... keep in mind the bible wasn't written at the beginning of time, read my previous post. The bible was written throughout "modern" times, not prehistoric or anything. Animals and people are significantly different, humans are intelligent and have free will, animals are beasts that rely on instinct (although they can be somewhat intelligent). The bible makes many clear points that animals and humans are on completely different levels; I guess you could say animals don't have true "souls" as humans do. Of course, this doesn't mean it's ok to abuse animals or anything.
Condoms and the Catholic church, I have no clue because I'm not Catholic. Maybe they're just discouraging premarital sex. It's fine to use condoms if you're having sex with your spouse.
Again, the bible didn't magically appear, it was written by humans that were the followers of God and it virtually comes from God, He is the true author and His word is expressed through these people in the books of the bible.
God doesn't hate fags, He has unconditional love for everyone. His love is always there, you just need to accept it, and repent of your sins, and live a righteous life in His name. It doesn't matter how bad you are, God is always there. There's people in the bible like Saul, who was a mass-murderer of Christians (commanded people to slaughter them), but eventually he turned out to be a very strong follower of Christ. Being gay is indeed a sin, and it's a choice that some people continue to live in constantly, but it's completely forgivable if you change your ways.
God made us to have free will, we are made in His image, but we have a sin nature and are far from living a perfect life. Nobody is perfect, with the exception of Jesus, who is God's son sent to earth. (FYI, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are separate entities, but also the same)
And yeah, the devil was in the form of a serpent in the garden of Eden, and tricked Eve into eating the fruit from the tree, who then gave it to Adam to eat. It's man's fault. One interesting thing I've read (this is pure theory though, not directly in the bible at all) is that God created everything, but God did not create evil, because evil is the absence of good. Sounds pretty cool, and kinda helps explain the idea that "if God is omnipotent, then why does evil still exist/why was it created". I'm not 100% sure, not everything is 100% clear in the bible and some things aren't meant to be known. Or maybe I haven't done enough research, w/e.
Uh... masturbation is a sin because it's lusting/adultery. As far as these sex topics go, basically the sanctity of marriage is important, and it's fine to have all the sex you want with your wife/husband, it's more of a cultural thing to strengthen the emotional and physical bond between you two. I'm not encouraging you to have wild sex or anything lol, but I mean I don't see what's really wrong with it. I guess exotic sex is fine too as long as it's in the same situation.
I hope most of this makes sense and answers some of your questions/enlightens you on certain topics. I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the scripture, but I'm trying to share the information I know with you. Don't worry about asking a lot of questions, I'm more than happy to answer any you might have about my religion.
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:04:02QUOTE (Gunblakes @ Jul 21 2008, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Is there a difference between BELIEVING and JOINING a religion? I.e merely believing in the Christian God, as opposed to joining a Christian community and engaging in religious activites.(going to church, etc)
Definitely. Joining a religion involves an initiation process. In Christianity this is baptism, which usually occurs when you are a few days old, although adults are sometimes baptized.QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>well, people wrote the bible right? i feel like... sometimes i think the church in general just goes too far with its ideals, and it instills it in people's minds.
Maybe some churches do. This is why I prefer masses where the priest does not try to drill ideas into people's minds but talks about how we can apply Bible verses in our everyday lives. I don't like people who treat the Bible as a sacred and unchallengeable authority. I prefer to see it more as a guide to living one's life.QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>for example, why would god care about adultry?
Because adultery is the sin of lust and violates the sanctity of marriage.QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Other animals commit adultry all the time, why would god have created humans differently?
Whereas animals act only on instinct, God created humans as rational beings. Thus, we are able to reason that adultery is evil and not commit the act. He created us superior to animals because he had some higher purpose for us. Specifically, he wanted us to carry out his will on Earth and ascend to his kingdom after death.QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>and then there's the catholic church saying god doesn't approve of condoms. since when? when the hell did god tell us he didnt like condoms?
If the Catholic church said that then they implied it from God saying seed (semen) should not be wasted. According to God, man is supposed to use seed for the purpose of procreation.QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>did marriage exists when the first human beings were created (however u believe that to have happened)?QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>and then i see people with those signs saying God hates fags...
Yes, it existed. God defines marriage as the union between man and woman. While he does not approve of same-sex marriage, he also teaches us to love our fellow humans irrespective of race, creed, or sexuality. Regretfully, those anti-gay protesters are radical Christians who make the rest of us look bad.QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>seeing as AoD just called Mats and me abominations
I wouldn't take anything AoD says seriously. He is either posing as or really is one of these hardcore Christians. Believe me, we loathe these types of (pseudo-)Christians just as much as you do. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:04:38
one thing at a time
QUOTE (jux @ Jul 21 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Being gay is indeed a sin
why??
edit: i mean i understand that not all religious people are those people holding those signs, but you do still think it's wrong -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:09:08
Read Tialys' post I guess, same-sex marriage was never meant to be. The bible says it as well.
Interesting, I wasn't completely sure if actual marriage existed in the beginning, I mean I guess it could be more of a commitment and no ceremony type thing, but yeah you get the point. I don't see why it couldn't. Again, I'm not the most well-versed. I'll look it up later, and I might just get a direct scripture about the gay thing Shadowserpant.
Edit: Read this page, it has some scripture references and assesses the question on homosexuality: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html
Edit2: It's all good Tialys, I prefer to have more than one viewpoint on questions, and it's always good to have someone reaffirm my existing points. I like your posts a lot. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:10:27
but again... people wrote the bible, right? how do you know that those people who originally wrote the bible didnt misinterperet God's words?
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:15:50
where does it say that? can someone get like a quote or something
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:19:13QUOTE (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.QUOTE (Romans 1:26-27)For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.QUOTE (1 Timothy 1:9-10)Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
The verses quoted here were in the link jux posted -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:20:23
yea just saw that link
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:24:17
What I meant with marriage is that the concept must have existed during Creation but the rite was not put into words until the Bible. I agree that the ceremony must have become more intricate over time.
Homosexuality is not tolerated because God created man and woman so they could, at the very least, procreate. Gay marriage defeats the purpose of creating woman in the first place. This is reflected in human nature. By nature, men are chemically and psychologically attracted to women, and vice-versa, through pheromones and other factors. This is why it's hard to believe that people are naturally gay. Instead, homosexuality must have arisen from man's yielding to temptation and willful defiance of God's word. This is no better than Eve biting the apple. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:26:46
i'm thinking of making another thread regarding all of this...
my other problem with religion is the blind faith people seem to have in it
i often see people whose lives have just been utterly ruined by their own carelessness
and instead of trying to fix themselves, trying to work harder, they simply say
im not worried. god has a plan for me. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:28:39QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but again... people wrote the bible, right? how do you know that those people who originally wrote the bible didnt misinterperet God's words?
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
Humans might be capable of misinterpreting or writing something wrong down, but in the hands of Someone who isn't, there's no way they could write anything that wasn't meant to be.
Back then was different from the days of today, God had a bigger direct influence on people/events. Both halves of the bible have quite a time gap between them, but all in all you can see that the things written in the bible are consistent, and that it's still standing today and hasn't been proven wrong. Of course there's the question faith in believing things in Christianity, and this would be one of them, but it's not blind faith, there's good reason to believe that the bible is in fact the very Word of God.
Edit: With prayer, faith, and obedience , God can help you survive the most difficult situations, and rejoice in the greatest of times. However, God is not a crutch you rely on and can use for your safety all the time. Your life is also in your hands, if you do something about it God will aid you in ways you can't even imagine. Although He can, God is not there to help you when you're going to be really lazy and throw yourself in the gutter and expect him to clean it up. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:36:50
see jux, you're one of those people who illustrate to me the good aspects of religion. Religion generally makes people good, better than they would be without.
But there're the other people, those that I feel take advantage of religion, and twist its values to fit their needs -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:41:07QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i'm thinking of making another thread regarding all of this...
my other problem with religion is the blind faith people seem to have in it
Christianity is just one of many religions. If you want to talk about Christianity in particular I'll gladly split the thread but discussion about blind devotion to religion in general belongs in this topic.
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 00:44:08
Thanks, but I owe all the credit to God.
There's always people out there who will be out on the street with the "God hates fags" signs or things of a similar nature, but just ignore them because they're crazy people and usually frowned upon by others. When it comes down to it, if anyone preaches something that seems a little suspicious or whatever, resort to the bible (or google stuff with bible quotes) and you can read the very direct word of God and double check what is right or wrong.
Edit: Tialys has a point. I'm driving the original point of the topic into the wrong direction. I'd like to hear the opinions of other religions regarding the original question. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 12:36:30
How come if mankind has been around for some one million years has religion only been around for several thousand years ?
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 16:02:48
Mats, I don't know if what you stated is true, but maybe people were either not intelligent enough to think in words and thus to have religion or they were so confident about themselves that they didn't need a religion to make them feel accepted?
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Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 16:18:01QUOTE (Mats @ Jul 22 2008, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>How come if mankind has been around for some one million years has religion only been around for several thousand years ?
Sources please -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 16:28:26QUOTE (Mats @ Jul 22 2008, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>How come if mankind has been around for some one million years has religion only been around for several thousand years ?
if you look at the maslow pyramid, humans have to satisfy their basic needs first. so back then mankind struggled just to survive so obviously they didn't realyl have time to think about anything else, after they've settled and assured their basic needs they started looking at other stuff, like art, language, social, etc.. and also religion. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 17:17:50QUOTE (NaDa @ Jul 22 2008, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sources please
Well erm my generic encyclopedia suggests mankind has been around for like millions of years but that 'modern man' i.e. when we started to use tools and such has been around for like 40 000 years. However, the bible states humans have only been around for 6 000 years. The tools found would probably have been identified as being x number of years old by carbon dating which is a pretty accurate technique. I don't know what techniques were used to establish ages of fossils (not being a paelentologist and all). -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 18:51:39
I don't think units of time are specified in the bible like Mats assumes. I don't know where you got 6000 years from but uh... the time system we use today is made by us, a "day" for God could be thousands and thousands of years. Who knows? If you can find a source from the bible I'd like to see the dating of when Adam and Eve were created.
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 13:17:10
Adam and Eve by the bible count were made 5768-9 years ago.
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 13:23:37QUOTE (jux @ Jul 22 2008, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I don't think units of time are specified in the bible like Mats assumes. I don't know where you got 6000 years from
I actually got that from a lecture a professor from the Royal Institute gave on evolution. -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 14:11:16
Quote from bible please.
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 16:15:16
mats is referring to http://www.conservapedia.com/Young_Earth_Creationism
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 20:55:07
Sorry, try again.
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 23:12:26
I see a lot of "guessing" on the age of the earth. The link zombo posted assumes that the days in the bible are the same as the days today; they go by solar cycles (the sun comes up and goes down). However, we cannot be 100% sure on this. The lecture from a professor on evolution doesn't sound credible, even if he did claim to study the bible.
I'm not exactly sure how people can determine that man has been around for millions of years. An encyclopedia is a good source of info, but when it comes to topics like this it's not credible on my side.
If Adam and Eve were the first two people on earth (which I say they are of course), why do you say religion only existed for a couple thousand years yet mankind has been around for 40,000 or a million or whatever? "Religion" started with the creation of man, it was not written but it was not completely necessary as Adam and Eve could communicate to God directly. Eventually things came into writing, population grew, and things turned out how they did today.
thnikk: Well not everything in life is very fun like working, but in the end it's the results that count right? -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 23:27:31QUOTE (jux @ Jul 24 2008, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The lecture from a professor on evolution doesn't sound credible, even if he did claim to study the bible.
He really just said it as a sort of aside random fact. He had a lot of those. Because he's from the Royal Institute one would assume he's probably done quite a bit of research before the lecture as it would be damaging to the institutions reputation if he was making claims that are just totally random or purely his opinion.QUOTEI'm not exactly sure how people can determine that man has been around for millions of years.
The dating of rocks and fossils?QUOTEIf Adam and Eve were the first two people on earth (which I say they are of course), why do you say religion only existed for a couple thousand years yet mankind has been around for 40,000 or a million or whatever?
There is no evidence of today's religions from more than several thousand years ago.
How about the fact that inbreeding causes hugely increased disease, increased chance of birth defects etc. If all people came from just Adam and Eve that's a hell of a lot of inbreeding, especially in the early stages. What was God's stance on all that inbreeding too? What is the bible's stance on sex with family members?
//Stop asking me for quotes from the bible. I don't even have a bible (lol I only have two books nowadays). -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 02:18:12
Research can only go far when you're delving into things like biblical/science discussions. I'm sure he's a smart man but he's got a stand on these kinds of issues. There's a lot of equally smart people, Christian and non-Christian, who probably disagree with him.
After googling a bit, it seems the "accepted" age for earth as told by dating of old rocks is about 4.55 billion years... I'm not sure on how accurate these dating methods are but that's what I see a lot. Again, time units are different from long ago, who knows how old the earth really is.
So even though the bible starts from the beginning of time you'll say that there's no religion from more than several thousands of years ago? This is where the line is drawn between what you believe and what someone else believes. There might not be any written evidence from that time period, but there is written evidence that is here today that tells of the time when Adam and Eve were alive.
I'm not completely sure about the whole inbreeding and diseases thing, but keep in mind Adam and Eve were made by the hands of God himself, they aren't regular humans like us today. They lived alongside God, and lived for a LONG time. I'm sure inbreeding diseases weren't a problem.
The reason we ask for quotes is because you're getting info from outside sources that might not be completely accurate or might be very opinionated. However if you can find proof in the bible then we'll believe you for sure. -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 02:23:46
since when was a day not a day? hasn't every human civilization based their time on astronomy? hasn't a day always been "a moon" or something like that?
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Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 02:27:14QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 23 2008, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>since when was a day not a day? hasn't every human civilization based their time on astronomy? hasn't a day always been "a moon" or something like that?
???
a day is not something determined by man, but by nature... -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 02:44:54
Hmmm... well I'm no scholar but a few "days" passed before the sun and moon were made. I don't know how a day would work like that, it might not be 24 hours though...
Also it's said that there's a big time gap between the first two verses in Genesis.
I'm not clear on any amounts of time when it comes to the beginning of time and man, but I'm just saying you can't believe whatever someone spits out there because they can supposedly back it up with numbers or theories. Some things might be true, some things might be a load of bs...
I just stumbled across this and it cleared a few things for me, I hope it'll explain some things as well: http://www.kjvbible.org/theworlds.html
The little chart and the scroll box that explains it are pretty nifty. -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 02:50:33QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>my other problem with religion is the blind faith people seem to have in it
i often see people whose lives have just been utterly ruined by their own carelessness
and instead of trying to fix themselves, trying to work harder, they simply say
im not worried. god has a plan for me.
Meant to reply to this earlier but forgot. If you are talking about Christianity in particular then it definitely has a checkered past. When the Church had more power, people would claim to have received communication directly from God and would use this to justify heinous acts like the Crusades. In the modern era, though, people have mostly freed themselves from the shackles of religion and have learned to think rationally instead of letting religious fear cloud their judgment. The other problem you mention is the more recent one, where people guiltlessly perpetuate their dissolute lifestyles because they feel God will always offer absolution. This is either a fatal misinterpretation of the Bible on their part or just plain ignorance. God's word says that we must repent our sins. In other words, we must feel genuinely regretful whenever we commit wrong acts and strive to correct our ways. This aspect is similar to Buddhism, which states that enlightenment is achieved through suffering.
I notice atheists often claiming they detest religion because "Christians try to force their ideals upon me." When I consider this objectively, I must say I haven't seen this occurring where I live. Either way, informing others of one's religion and foisting ideals upon someone else are not the same thing. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses go door-to-door "advertising" their religion but they are not coercing people to join. Even if someone assumes a "holier-than-thou" stance (again I haven't personally encountered this), it's not as if you have to buy into their values. Again, these tend to be "hardcore zealots". -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 03:15:34QUOTE (Zombo @ Jul 23 2008, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>???
a day is not something determined by man, but by nature...
but isn't it man's choice to decide what to call a day?
i said that cuz someone said that a day back then was longer or something..
i cant reply to those other ones at the moment, i will later -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 03:19:21QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 23 2008, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but isn't it man's choice to decide what to call a day?
i said that cuz someone said that a day back then was longer or something..
i cant reply to those other ones at the moment, i will later
how can a day be longer, think about it, they didn't have a clock back then. how could they make a day anything other than 24 hours, which is determined naturally by the cycle of day and night. they can't be like "let's make a day 27 hours"
and humans naturally sleep once per day, it's only natural to divide like that. -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 03:30:27
well that's what i was saying zombo, that a day is a day. i was saying it in response to this
[quote name='jux' date='Jul 22 2008, 11:51 AM' post='135283']
uh... the time system we use today is made by us, a "day" for God could be thousands and thousands of years -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 03:48:57
oh ok sorry, cuz you wrote
"isn't it man's choice to decide what to call a day?"
you should write "it's not man's choice to decide what ..." -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 04:32:54
I'm saying like in the time before man and such, it's unclear as to what a day is, as the sun and moon aren't existing yet. The link I posted clears it up a bit, sorry.
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Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 10:16:23QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 24 2008, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This aspect is similar to Buddhism, which states that enlightenment is achieved through suffering.
I notice atheists often claiming they detest religion because "Christians try to force their ideals upon me."
Firstly, I'd like to clarify the concept of Buddhism. It is based mostly on karma, so the more good deeds you do, you accrue more merit. You do not need to suffer to gain enlightenment, if you do any bad deeds, you just do more good deeds to dilute the bad karma, inorder to gain enough merit, so that when you pass on, you are reincarnated as a higher being in a higher realm demons
Personally, I see more sense in Buddhism then most other religions, because of the fact that you have to WORK for your good karma, and there is no "God" toying around with you, basically you shape your own destiny, whether you go to heaven/hell is entirely based on your actions and decisions. Whereas, in Christianity, if you believe in God for life, you get to go to Heaven immediately, which sounds kind of lame. But I keep an open mind, and believe in Christianity for the sake of going to heaven, some might call it hypocritical but I call it pragmatic.
I notice atheists often claiming they detest religion because "Christians try to force their ideals upon me."
It is irritating at times, when some (but not all) Christians claim that all non-believers will go to Hell when they die, therefore Christianity should be the religion of choice. It shows an utter lack of disrespect and narrow-mindedness, which IMO is the main source of hatred. -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 16:34:38
Ok, I didn't word that too well. I meant that initial suffering is required for enlightenment, not that one must continually suffer to achieve it.
As for Christians saying non-believers will go to hell, hate is always present in the world. Any type of discrimination is irritating. I have seen atheists attack Christians who have not bothered them in any way. And what about racists? -
Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 21:51:56
I get mad at christians who preach to me with no respect for my own opinion. As if i'm a child and they're telling me santa clause isn't real. Otherwise, i highly respect them. I've even volunteered at churches
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Date: Thu, Jul 24 2008 22:01:29
Please all of you God lovers, watch Zeitgeist and watch your beliefs disappear(unless you can prove the truth wrong).
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Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 00:19:58QUOTE (Lordbojo @ Jul 24 2008, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Please all of you God lovers, watch Zeitgeist and watch your beliefs disappear(unless you can prove the truth wrong).
You're funny. Real funny. I've not seen the movie but I remember hearing a bit about it...
9-11 conspiracy theories and all kinds random stuff is thrown into that movie. It seems EXTREMELY unreliable. Personally I think it's a load of crap, and you shouldn't take this movie seriously; looks like another Da Vinci Code type of thing to me.
I suggest you read the criticism part of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_movie
And look: showing a true Christian these kind of random, pop-up movies that try to disprove or denounce Christianity usually won't do anything but cause arguments and debates. It's funny how you say "unless you can prove the truth wrong" when the movie itself tries to prove the truth wrong.
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Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 00:21:16QUOTE (Lordbojo @ Jul 24 2008, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Please all of you God lovers, watch Zeitgeist and watch your beliefs disappear(unless you can prove the truth wrong).
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRKXiSHbzj8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbvH5ZFJK4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2RD4vTuPN0
http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/com..._myth_of_horus/
http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2952
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/ -
Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 00:26:53
have you any of you guys watch Jesus Camp? that film is shocking
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Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 00:31:29
Yeah NaDa, I just found a youtube vid that had all those links. I've not heard much about the movie but apparently there's a huge deal about it.
Zombo I've never seen that movie but it's about Pentecostal summer camp... I can imagine there will be those a little more eccentric things like speaking in tongues, etc. >_> -
Date: Fri, Jul 25 2008 00:44:28
watch it here, http://nynerd.com/jesus-camp-full-length-movie/ it's a good documentary.
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Date: Tue, Jul 29 2008 23:02:44
I dont like Religion!
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Date: Fri, Aug 1 2008 17:34:20
This might help w/ the whole Religion v. Science.
Spoiler:
Now this can still be debatable. So I wanna see someone come up w/ an answer about Jesus, or any religion at that. This story gives valid points to both sides. -
Date: Fri, Aug 1 2008 17:39:19
Wow...that took up a lot of time, but was worth it. I believed in God for a long time now, now I believe in him even more. Thanks Webo.
That kid is smart..I never thought about life in that way....geez. -
Date: Fri, Aug 1 2008 23:08:47
Wow umm it mentions evolution not being observed.
But survival of the fittest by process of natural selection (evolution) is causing doctors huge headaches as bacteria, that go through generations at an astounding rate, become more and more resistant to anti-biotics, by process of natural selection.
Also on the mentioning of the brain of the professor...QUOTE'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the establish rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'
The professor's brain is implied to exist from evidence. For instance, we know that when a human has their brain detached form the body it cannot move, or speak etc. It is implied from the way the professor can do such actions that he has a brain, in the same way that if you look into a house and the room is lit, you can infer that there is a light in that room or somewhere open to that room, even if you cannot see the light.
He uses the argument of there 'being no cold' but cold is a subjective and comparitive word, not an absolute so it's a poor example.QUOTEbut if you have no light constantly you have Nothing and it's called darkness
The absence of light does not mean there is nothing. When I turn off my bedroom light my bed and I do not just vanish from existance.
We never speak in science classes of 'cold' or 'darkness' only of temperature or of light intensity. * shrug *
Also if 'God is everywhere' as I hear people say then there cannot be places in which God is absent.
I think I could pull out more but I think that's enough. It's a weak story. -
Date: Fri, Aug 1 2008 23:20:21
ugh
yea uh that story is based on a bunch of arguements based on a bunch of abstract theories
it's like those stupid metaphors like "life is a river. blah blah blah blah blah...."
you can bend anything to make it sound right, but all it is is a bunch of bent up theories
EDIT: He argues that the professor's arguements are based on duality. He has no arguement that God's workings do not operate in this way -
Date: Sat, Aug 2 2008 02:41:19
There are equally compelling arguments for and against the existence of God, that's why the debate will never end. It's nothing to lose sleep over though. Just believe what you want to. There are many debates on YouTube and some are pretty interesting (and funny). Here's one with prominent YouTube members on both sides:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfyEywk1E54
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCNGO7ghd_k
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSaa4-i7Gk
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRK4g6RHCsc
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqWh07MR5w
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ai8Cq3zPuI
Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYkwFZqI2l0 -
Date: Sat, Aug 2 2008 05:53:44
It is not for me to say why it is that people turn towards a religion, but a very common denominator is "fear of the unknown" - now most are born into a religion - Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and a whole bunch of others - as a child, you look up to you caregivers and it is easy for their beliefs to be adopted by you - after all, you're young.
You begin questioning beliefs and theories as you get older - and the need for your self-gratification rises. I mean, the religion you're born into is given to you - I feel that people are more satisfied when they quest for and find their own answer. Now - it is not to say that everyone converts to another belief system, some - whether or not they are satiated, stay with what they are given - fear, obligation, lack of motivation or maybe they are happy with the answers given to them by their birth-religion.
Why do people turn to religion? Who's to say other then the individual? But all religion exist to help guide its followers in a righteous and clean manner. -
Date: Sat, Aug 2 2008 19:20:54
Wow I'm sorry webo but that "little story" was full of fallicies, first evolution has been observed thousands of times, not only by darwin's finches but multipe types of animals. The heat agument was nothing but blastphamy of course there is no "cold" it is a term used to describe how much heat has been lost from something we use the same type of words to descirbe; warm, a little warmer than our body temapture, luke-warm, just about the same, cold, everyone has their opinion on it but I would say any temp under 60F, and then hot would probably be anything over say 120F and over. The whole darkenss buisness I don't even want to go over because it is simply too stupid, and then the last thing WE DID NOT EVOLVE FROM MONKEYS, that is the one thing I absolutley hate about people who are against evolution and come up that we evolved from monkeys. We had a common ancestor and if we did evolve from monkeys guess what they would be EXTINCT yes, why you might ask? Because with the process of evolution we would have ousted the monkeys they would be extinct and so on so fourth, I think I need to introduce everyone to ExtantDodo, just watch a few of their video's I highly suggest Top 25 Creationist Fallicies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXMKPvWqgYk
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Date: Thu, Aug 28 2008 09:42:26QUOTE (Mats @ Jul 20 2008, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The description of the creation of the heavens and the Earth in the big bang theory and the description in the bible do not agree on the facts and so cannot both be correct. For instance, the big bang theory suggests the entire universe, all dimensions, matter, anti-matter and all forms of energy all came at once, whereas in the bible there are definate intervals at which various things were created (at first the Earth existed, then it existed with light, then it existed with waters etc).
I believe the bible suggests that all of humanity were descended of Adam and Eve (just two people). According to genetics, a species born of just two parents would not survive due to inbreeding. The bible also suggests that the trees and plants came first whereas evolution states that micro-organisms come first.
All in all, I think the two theories are incompatable and it really is a 'one or the other' situation.
You know there are other religions with theories different to that of Christianity... -
Date: Sat, Oct 11 2008 00:10:39
i think we'll never know if theres an after life cause when u die, u cant come back to life and tell sombody there is. No one will ever know....
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Date: Sun, Oct 12 2008 10:51:28QUOTE (sangara @ Jul 15 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Why do people look towards religion? Is it a sense of stability? Maybe they need someone/something to guide them? I just want to ask this general question, I don't want any conversation on any religion in specific, this thread will not be a ball of flames. Nor will I tolerate any bashing on ones religion we all have our opinions and I expect that we will all be adult enough to respect those opinions.
My personal view is that people have two ways of coming into a religion, either they are looking for some sense of stability or a sense of family and brethren. Or in the other case, they are born into it and from the start that's what they're told to believe.
Im new in this topic, so im gonna start from the start.
Why do people look towards religion? Well I think it all started when people back then couldn't explain the phenomenon of the world, so they said that there were some being that surpassed any being that could literally do anything. And now, people look toward religion because they think they can go to heaven when they die, or something good like that.
And yes, it's probably sense of stability, that by using religion, they can make laws with it, that would make any believers to do according to rule. People think if they follow all the rule, they can go to heaven.
It's more like Ethics in my mind.
I'm an atheist, so I don't really know. I hope no one flames me. -
Date: Sun, Oct 12 2008 11:04:33
Watch Zeitgeist, it basically convinced me that god is not real, even though i was an atheist anyway.
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Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 05:44:53QUOTE (MX kid @ Oct 11 2008, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i think we'll never know if theres an after life cause when u die, u cant come back to life and tell sombody there is. No one will ever know....
We figured... thats where the whole faith thing comes into it. -
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 09:31:52
Religion is a taboo subject along with race and politics. Wonder why? Anyways..
Religion vs science. What's the point? It's like comparing apples and oranges.
Why do people look towards religion? Most people would say to give meaning to our lives. Or a meaning to our existence. But we don't need religion to live a meaningful life or do we?
Greek philosopher Socrates once said "An unexamined life is not worth living." But isn't it?
Religion is a funny word. Has all these loaded meanings / associations that come with it. I think most people perceive it in a negative way. Interesting ...
- GabGaab -
Date: Wed, Oct 29 2008 03:46:31QUOTE (Zombo @ Jul 23 2008, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>how can a day be longer, think about it, they didn't have a clock back then. how could they make a day anything other than 24 hours, which is determined naturally by the cycle of day and night. they can't be like "let's make a day 27 hours"
and humans naturally sleep once per day, it's only natural to divide like that.
The real question is how a day can even exist without the sun or even light. -
Date: Wed, Oct 29 2008 03:50:38QUOTE (Surge @ Oct 28 2008, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The real question is how a day can even exist without the sun or even light.
Um when a day begins/ends was determined by man so... what else do you need? -
Date: Wed, Oct 29 2008 03:56:35QUOTE (sangara @ Oct 28 2008, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Um when a day begins/ends was determined by man so... what else do you need?New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Genesis Chapter 1:
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
According to the bible, god made the sun and such on the forth day. Thus a 'day' existed before the sun or man. That is the problem. -
Date: Wed, Oct 29 2008 03:59:59
okay...
you can't quote the bible
against someone arguing religion... -
Date: Wed, Oct 29 2008 04:31:48QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Oct 28 2008, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>okay...
you can't quote the bible
against someone arguing religion...
Most christians haven't ever read the bible through and don't know some of the claims it makes so I think it is valid to quote the bible against its own truth. -
Date: Wed, Oct 29 2008 04:34:43QUOTE (Surge @ Oct 28 2008, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Genesis Chapter 1:
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
According to the bible, god made the sun and such on the forth day. Thus a 'day' existed before the sun or man. That is the problem.
The bible is no source of fact therefore we have what man did, man set a day to be 24 hours, who knows what else we could have set it to. I'm not exactly getting what you're arguing, but quotes from the bible aren't going to work. -
Date: Wed, Oct 29 2008 04:50:38QUOTE (sangara @ Oct 28 2008, 11:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The bible is no source of fact therefore we have what man did, man set a day to be 24 hours, who knows what else we could have set it to. I'm not exactly getting what you're arguing, but quotes from the bible aren't going to work.
I not arguing for that bible is true just to be clear. The question is asked of people who think the bible is literally the word of god. I was merely wondering what Young Earth Creationist (they believe in a literal six day creation) think about a day existing without the sun. Sorry for the confusion.
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Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 17:41:01
But there is a time schedule of 28 hours a day
just changes things up a bit =P
Anyway I'm not going to get into this really as people said enough, all I want to add is that I have no problem with faith. I'm not religious, but if someone thinks a powerful entity is responsible for all of this then so be it. My problem is with religion.
Religion, almost in it's whole, is fucking stupid. Why the fuck can't I eat pork? Why can't I turn on the light on Saturday? All the killing and bullshit over stupid religion, all of these habits and customs that have absolutely no sense in them what so ever yet they are still kept because for some reason the fact that I put stupid things on myself while I pray or not eat certain things brings me closer to God.
It talks about being good to other people and doing all of these good deeds, yet I'll be sent to hell because I ate an animal? Give me a break.
I rather hate the bible. It has great fables and life lessons, and in the same time a lot of stupid shit. The parts I hate most are the parts that talk about people, normal people which digs found proof of their existence, that the bible said they spoke to God and then turned bad.
Come on, you're telling me this person had a conversation with an all-mighty entity, has received personal proof or witnessed a miracle, yet still failed to do what was asked? No way.
Believe what you want, that's your right. But if you follow this stupid shit, then you're just an idiot who can't think for himself. I hardly think an all-mighty entity will judge you evil because even though you saved a million people, when you prayed for him you didn't have something to cover your head >.>.
Believing in God=Awesome.
Not Believing in God=Also Awesome.
Believing in a certain religion beyond the basic idea=Stupid. -
Date: Wed, Nov 19 2008 19:03:23
Well, Teatime pretty much said my own opinion.
I have no problem with people believing in god. I personally don't, but if they want to, what do I care?
But I find it stupid to think that by eating a cheeseburger, or bacon, or just turn on the lights on Saturday I'll be sent to hell, even if, like Teatime said, I saved the planet from a complete destruction.
a bit off topic: 28 hours a day? that sounds useful -
Date: Thu, Nov 20 2008 01:00:29
Hmm, but abstaining from pork and saving electricity does help to reduce environmental pollution.
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Date: Fri, Nov 21 2008 00:51:37QUOTE (Gunblakes @ Nov 20 2008, 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hmm, but abstaining from pork and saving electricity does help to reduce environmental pollution.
How come pigs pollute more for example than cattle or poultry? -
Date: Wed, Dec 24 2008 16:27:06
If there is a God, there is only one God. The different religions are just different paths leading you to Him. But i don't believe in God. i'm sorry
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Date: Wed, Dec 24 2008 19:54:29QUOTE (iNoob @ Dec 24 2008, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If there is a God, there is only one God. The different religions are just different paths leading you to Him. But i don't believe in God. i'm sorry
Then what about the religions with more than one god? Or a religion without an actual god? -
Date: Wed, Dec 24 2008 19:55:43
From his statement, those would be wrong, I would like to see some reasoning behind saying all those religions are wrong myself
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Date: Wed, Dec 24 2008 20:23:37QUOTE (Eso @ Jul 14 2008, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Final thought: believe in what you want. Don't impose your system onto others.
*this whole religion argument is giving me a headache =/* -
Date: Thu, Dec 25 2008 08:18:40QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 21 2008, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i'm thinking of making another thread regarding all of this...
my other problem with religion is the blind faith people seem to have in it
i often see people whose lives have just been utterly ruined by their own carelessness
and instead of trying to fix themselves, trying to work harder, they simply say
im not worried. god has a plan for me.
yea true, God isn't going to do absolutly everything for you (he gave us free will). All we have to do is trust in him (while we put our whole 110% in too)