UPSB v3

Advanced Tricks / Extended Thumbaround, Fake Double and Tornado

  1. LMnet
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 09:23:02

    There is a lots of threads about this problem, but some spinners don't fully understand what is Ext TA, Fake double and tornado, and what is the difference between this tricks. In this video i show all types of this tricks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD_Sw2-OglI

    Original Kam's Extended ThumbAround is hybrid: ThumbAround normal T1-T1 ~ FL Neo-sonic reverse T1-12. It looks like TS 1.5 that ends in 12. In my video it's the first trick.
    Kam's Fake double is also hybrid. It looks like Ext TA, but there is some little difference between this tricks. Fake double is: ThumbAround normal T1-T1 ~ FL Neo-sonic reverse T1-12 > pass reverse 12-T1. So, dofference between Ext TA and Fake double it's just pass rev 12-T1. In my video it's the second trick.

    Now, i want to talk about Ext TA which is very popular in Asia, and now all over the world. I don't see Kam's style Ext TA or Fake double very long time. This Asian tricks looks different from classic Kam's tricks.
    Asian Ext TA is looks more like ThumbAround normal T1-T1 ~ BackAround reverse T1-12. In my video it's the third trick.
    Fake double is ThumbAround normal T1-T1 ~ BackAround reverse T1-12 > pass reverse 12-T1. In my video it's the fourth trick. Difference between Asian Ext TA and Fake double is the same to Kam's Ext TA and Fake double, it's just pass reverse.

    But, what is tornado? Many people use this tricks in their combo. But tornado it's just Asian Fake double. In Japanese naming system Fake double is Tornado. Some spinners use just wrong word for this trick. Here's Aysh's Tornado Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oxYW8dUZS0
    You can see that he doing the same thing that Asian Fake double in my video.

    So, just don't use word Tornado, say Fake double. In combos almost everybode use Asians Ext TA and fake double, so you don't need to write in what style you do this tricks.

  2. Rorix
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 09:34:42

    I think a lot of people call it tornado because it sounds cooler dunno.gif

  3. Viend
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 11:04:53

    So the difference between Ext TA and Fake Double/Tornado is the rev pass at the end?

    And this is done using index push TA right?

  4. Rorix
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 11:09:55

    Fake Double and Extended ThumbAround can be pushed with any finger (except the thumb obviously).

  5. sketching
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 15:31:51

    QUOTE (Viend @ Sep 20 2007, 04:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So the difference between Ext TA and Fake Double/Tornado is the rev pass at the end?

    And this is done using index push TA right?

    Yeah, Extended Thumbaround ends in the 12 slot and has 1.5 rotations, Fake Double ends in the Thumbaround starting position and has 2 rotations. Tornado is another way of accomplishing the Fake Double's 2 rotations: same basic path of the pen but using different tricks.

  6. Teatime
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 18:14:35

    uhh...honestly...I don't get it. I see the difference, I don't see how it's performed. I can do the 2nd one he showed, I thought that was ext TA...isn't it what Eso does as well?

  7. Eso
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 18:32:25

    According to these guys, what I do is the Extended TA.

    I think I may have done the Fake Double a few times just to get the pen back in "writing position".

  8. toast
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 20:26:54

    Ah.. I remember this

    Well i was never satisfied with the naming of the "two" tricks.

    The conclusion on UCPSB was to call them both fake double/ext ta, but i really think the two types deserve different names, due to different spin directions it links into.

    One name that i suggested using was the Japanese name (tornado) for the non-kam version, (since it was already called that in Japan) but people thought the name was lame and corny, and thus kept it to the same name.

    Perhaps the naming committee can touch on this? Thanks.

  9. Sfsr
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 20:34:19

    I WAS GONNA MAKE THIS THREAD DDD:

    Haven't read everything yet, I'll come with a reply later.

  10. K4S
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 20:36:44

    Hmm, they already have two names: extended TA and fake double. For simplicities sake i just refer to all of them as extended TA though tongue.gif

  11. Sfsr
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 20:43:50

    Ext TA: TA -> Fl Pass T1-12, can be done both in the "spins on index way" wich is considered more asian, and in the regular pass way.

    Fake Double: Doesn't need a breakdown, like Ext TA but with a pass from 12 further to T12. You mix the asian "spins on index way" of this trick up with Tornado

    Tornado:     A quite different trick, wich is more of a ThumbIndex Around with 1.5 spins that spins past the lower parts of your fingers. The pen never goes inbetween T and 1, which it does in both Ext TA and Fake Double.


    There is no denying it, Tornado is a trick. I finnish the mini-combo below with a Tornado, even though a pretty crappy executed one. I'll upload a video with Tornado -> Tornado -> Tornado tomorrow which shows the trick better.

  12. toast
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 20:50:34

    Hmm...if it was only like that

    Last time I checked, the official name for both was fake double, and the first was EXT ta.

    But nobody has been really obeying the rules..but yea, i agree with sfsr

  13. Eso
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 21:10:15

    QUOTE (K4S @ Sep 20 2007, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Hmm, they already have two names: extended TA and fake double. For simplicities sake i just refer to all of them as extended TA though tongue.gif


    +win

    I believe Tornado is merely the Japanese name for Fake Double.

  14. sketching
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 21:25:58

    It should never have been a hard thing to figure out.

    Extended Thumbaround is just what kam does in the video. Thumbaround, the pen flips over the Index finger to be caught in between the Index and Middle fingers. Done. Nothing more to worry about. The actual trick naming can be left up to the Interrupted Trick notation to fit how you actually perform the second part of the hybrid. Again, no problems there.

    With that out of the way, Fake Double is the same way, just use the Interrupted Trick Notation to explain what you actually did instead of trying to justifiy a unified name for the hybrid.

    These days, Fake Double is just an umbrella term for a hybrid that has the pen going around the Thumb, then over the Index finger, and is caught in the writing position, completing 2 full rotations. The specifics are left up to you to explain with the new notation that was invented to find an answer to this specific question. Just think of Fake Double as being an idea for how to move the pen a certain way, then figure out how you actually want to accomplish that idea.


    @Eso: Tornado is apparently how the Japanese decided to accomplish the idea of Fake Double. It's different than the original, but I don't think that that matters anymore.

  15. toast
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 21:30:00

    well when i play tackon, over MSN, i end up having to specify

    fake double (the non kam version) for every fake double i do...

    Whatever, if i'm the only one affected by it, then so be it.

  16. sketching
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 21:38:44

    I'm not affected, cause I use the Interrupted Trick Notation. thumb.gif

  17. Element
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 22:52:00

    seriously, i think your making things a lot harder for yourself by bringing this up.
    i think its really up to the spinners decision on what to call the trick.
    my personal opinion, wat sketching said was right.
    TA ext. = asian fake double, fake double = ends up in the normal writing position.
    and for tornado:

    QUOTE (Rorix @ Sep 20 2007, 02:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I think a lot of people call it tornado because it sounds cooler


    sometimes this trick is called spread 12, as a prequisite for teaching spreads,
    but then again, i think its just making it harder for themselves.

    if this still bothers you at the end,
    just use the interrupted trick notation
    and everything should be smooth sailing.

  18. sketching
    Date: Thu, Sep 20 2007 23:21:23

    @Toast & Element: Extended TA, Fake Double & Tornado all all hybrids, not tricks. wink.gif

  19. TayYH89
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 03:44:15

    Let us clarify with the Naming Committee on this first, are these tricks hybrids in the first place? Fake Double look pretty much a complete combo of 2 tricks imo.

    Moving on the Extended ThumbAround, alright, there are a lot of ways to do it. 'Kam's way' is by completing a TS1.5 in the 12 slot, that simple, not a FL NeoSonic Rev.

  20. sketching
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 03:52:07

    I've always performed Fake Double as:
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5][c] > Pass Reverse 12-T1

    ...I retract part of my previous statement. Fake Double is a combo consisting of a hybrid and a full trick...but still not a single trick. biggrin.gif


    I still view kam's video of Extended Thumbaround (on the old Pentix site) as:
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5][c]

    ...after the Thumbaround, the pen just flips over the Index finger for 1/2 a rotation.

  21. LMnet
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 06:22:42

    Sfsr i want to see your video when u show difference between Ext TA, Fake double and Tornado.

  22. Sfsr
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 12:16:31

    LMnet, i won't be home all day today, but I'll film it in the weekend.


    And Sketching, breakdown what I did in my video using the interrupted trick notation please? Can a ThumbIndexAround be broken down anything? I don't think it can really, since it doesn't do parts of tricks but several tricks at a time, or how you want to explain it. It's the same for Tornado. And well, I will continue to use this naming, it's accepted on SweSpin, people on FPSB, PDS and KPSA (afaik) use it, and JEB definitly uses a name for this trick.


    Btw, I don't think anyone in this thread has used it as an argument yet, but people tend to say that Tornado is a foreign term. Well, imo it can't be since this is a Universal board, how can anything be foreign then?

  23. LMnet
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 15:10:13

    We don't use japanese naming system, if u want use it, use it for all tricks.

  24. Sfsr
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 16:20:17

    I don't know how the japanese name all the tricks, and it would be pretty stupid to use their naming since I'm not Japanese, but it's still so that this is a trick that we don't have a name for, and I want a name for it. I call it Tornado, many others do to, since that's the only name it has this far. If you don't want it to be called that, you'll have to come up with something that I and others are willing to accept as a name for this trick.

  25. Merkuury
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 16:35:43

    http://media.putfile.com/ext-TA-fake-double-tornado-tut

    I found that on UCPSB but I'm not sure is it outdated.

  26. sketching
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 17:07:23

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 21 2007, 05:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    LMnet, i won't be home all day today, but I'll film it in the weekend.
    And Sketching, breakdown what I did in my video using the interrupted trick notation please? Can a ThumbIndexAround be broken down anything? I don't think it can really, since it doesn't do parts of tricks but several tricks at a time, or how you want to explain it. It's the same for Tornado. And well, I will continue to use this naming, it's accepted on SweSpin, people on FPSB, PDS and KPSA (afaik) use it, and JEB definitly uses a name for this trick.
    Btw, I don't think anyone in this thread has used it as an argument yet, but people tend to say that Tornado is a foreign term. Well, imo it can't be since this is a Universal board, how can anything be foreign then?


    It will be a while before I can view the video since my work computer doesn't want to play it. angry.gif

    ThumbIndexaround could probably be written as:
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 0.5] ~ Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5][c]

    or maybe:
    Passaround T2-T1 [p][s 0.5] ~ Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5][c]

    I'm liking the second breakdown since it makes sure that the pen is only doing 0.5 rotations in the beginning. On the other hand, you perform a Thumbaround push and interrupt it, which is the reason for the new notation. The first breakdown might work, but doesn't convey the pen only moving around the outside. If it needs to be done in the new notation, I would go with the first breakdown.


    As far as I can tell, Tornado is just a combo of: Thumbaround > Fingerless Indexaround T12-T12, no need to use a name for that combo.

    As a universal board, I believe that we can choose to include any forgein terms if they make enough sense. For me, Tornado does not make enough sense to be put into regular use here, since it is just a combo that was introduced to us fairly late, after the naming of combos (just for the sake of naming them) stopped.

  27. LMnet
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 17:19:00

    Tornado = Fake double and i'm sure about it. I want to see the video where i can see really difference between this tricks. I show Aysh's Tornado video and my Fake double, and i think it's both the same tricks. I'm doing Fake double like Aysh doing Tornado, i don't see any difference between this tricks.

  28. sketching
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 17:21:31

    Tornado uses a Korean Backaround Reverse (Fingerless Indexaround), that's been well established. Fake Double, as it originally was performed, did not. Tornado is the name of a specific combo, I think that Fake Double should be changed to simply mean a combo that moves around the Thumb and Index finger. Nothing specific, just an umbrella term if someone wants to be lazy and not properly breakdown a combo. Either that, or just drop the name Fake Double.

    I vote to drop the name because it still seems to confuse people.

  29. Sfsr
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 17:51:38

    LMnet, I'm not very keen on following what poeple do in videos, but does your pen ever even go between T and 1 before it goes around 1? Also, just because how you do what you call a Fake Double resembles Aysh's Tornado doesn't mean his trick is actually a Fake Double. It could be that you are actually doing the Fake Double wrong, and doing Tornado instead.

    Sketching, watch my video with a Tornado in it when you can and compare it to an Ext TA. And your breakdowns of ThumbIndexAround appear vague to me, the pen never goes into the T1 slot, which it appears to do if one would just read that breakdown.

  30. sketching
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 17:58:29

    Exactly, which is why I'm currently okay with ThumbIndexaround continuing to be a single trick, it doesn't seem to breakdown easily enough into separate partial tricks.

  31. Sfsr
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 18:05:35

    Well, Tornado is like ThumbIndexAround.

    EDIT: A name for people who don't want to use the term "Tornado" which they think is a "Japanese naming" could be Japanese ThumbIndexAround 1.5. Yay for super-long trick names. Tornado > that, really..

  32. LMnet
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 18:40:13

    Fake double and Tornado have 2 full rotation, not 1.5

    Sfsr, u think that:
    Fake double: TA ~ Bak rev T1-12 > pass rev 12-T1
    Tornado: TA ~ bak rev T1-T1
    Difference between Fake double and Tornado is pass rev 12-T1, In tornado pen goes around index finger and don't touch middle?

  33. thig
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 19:59:22

    As far as I know ThumbIndexAround Normal starts in the 12-slot, goes around both the thumb and index, and is caught in the 12-slot. Any other around that starts in T1 and involves going around the thumb and another finger is a hybrid of ThumbAround and (finger)Around or Thumbaround -> (finger)Around.

    Therefore,

    QUOTE (Sfsr)
    Well, Tornado is like ThumbIndexAround.

    No, Tornado is not like ThumbIndexAround. Tornado is a hybrid of two tricks. ThumbIndexAround is a trick.

    QUOTE (Sfsr)
    A name for people who don't want to use the term "Tornado" which they think is a "Japanese naming" could be Japanese ThumbIndexAround 1.5. Yay for super-long trick names. Tornado > that, really..

    I strongly disagree in the usage of 'Japanese' as a modifier.

  34. Zombo
    Date: Fri, Sep 21 2007 20:14:20

    QUOTE (thig @ Sep 21 2007, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    As far as I know ThumbIndexAround Normal starts in the 12-slot, goes around both the thumb and index, and is caught in the 12-slot. Any other around that starts in T1 and involves going around the thumb and another finger is a hybrid of ThumbAround and (finger)Around or Thumbaround -> (finger)Around.

    Therefore,
    No, Tornado is not like ThumbIndexAround. Tornado is a hybrid of two tricks. ThumbIndexAround is a trick.
    I strongly disagree in the usage of 'Japanese' as a modifier.



    lol we use korean as a modifier tho...

  35. LMnet
    Date: Sat, Sep 22 2007 03:53:37

    QUOTE (thig @ Sep 22 2007, 02:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    As far as I know ThumbIndexAround Normal starts in the 12-slot, goes around both the thumb and index, and is caught in the 12-slot. Any other around that starts in T1 and involves going around the thumb and another finger is a hybrid of ThumbAround and (finger)Around or Thumbaround -> (finger)Around.


    ThumbIndexAround start like TA but goes about thumb and index fingers. Trick, as you wrote it's IndexThumbAround 12-12

  36. sketching
    Date: Sat, Sep 22 2007 05:16:51

    Sorry about the long wait Sfsr. From the video, it looks like this is the combo that you do:

    Twisted Sonic 23-12 [p][s 1.0] ~ Middlearound 12-12 [s 1.0] > Indexaround 12-12 > Pass Reverse 12-T1 > Thumbaround T1-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Indexaround T1-T12 [s 1.0][c]



    This might a little more sense by translating some of the parts into familiar hybrid names...maybe not. tongue.gif

    QUOTE
    Twisted Sonic 23-12 [p][s 1.0] ~ Middlearound 12-12 [s 1.0]
    Devil's Around [p][s 1.5] ~ Passaround 23-12 [s 0.5]

    QUOTE
    Thumbaround T1-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Indexaround T1-T12 [s 1.0][c]
    a version of Fake Double

  37. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 22 2007 17:40:28

    @ LMnet: yes, the pen goes around Index before touching Middle.

    @ thig: Afaik, ThumbIndexAround can be both T12-12 (TA position) and 12-12. With "Tornado is like ThumbIndexAround" I meant that it can't be broken down in clear tricks either. Tornado is not a hybrid, watch my video and tell me what two tricks it is a hybrid of. I don't want to use the modifier "Japanese" either, in fact I hate it. I just wanted to show that this trick actually needs a name, since it is too different from the original Fake Double to be called that, not a hybrid in the way it can be broken down in to seperate tricks and calling it a variation of Fake Double by adding for example "Japanese" as a modifier in front of it just doesn't work.

    @ sketching: But the pen never goes into the T1 slot before going around my Index. And I just realized Tornado actually has 2.0 rotations, and not 1.5 as I have thought all the time dry.gif

  38. thig
    Date: Sat, Sep 22 2007 18:08:08

    QUOTE (Sfsr)
    ThumbIndexAround can be both T12-12 (TA position) and 12-12.

    I believe what you call a ThumbIndexAround T12-12 is actually a hybrid of Thumbaround 0.5 T1 ~ ThumbIndexAround 0.5 T1-12. If ThumbIndexAround Normal starts in T1, it's like saying MiddleAround Normal starts in a split of the middle finger. hawhaw. Which is kind of strange to imagine.

    QUOTE (Sfsr)
    Tornado is not a hybrid, watch my video and tell me what two tricks it is a hybrid of.

    Tornado is a Japanese term for '1,2-Spread Double.' 'Spread' indicates a Fingerless Around following a ThumbAround. '1,2' indicate the fingers, which means 'Thumb, Index' in Japanese nomenclature. In UPSB standards, this is translated to ThumbAround -> FL (finger)Around. If this definition does not agree with whatever trick you are doing, then you are not doing the Tornado.

    Please take a look at Sunrise's site - http://www4.pf-x.net/~sunrise/ - if you are still confused.

  39. Sfsr
    Date: Sat, Sep 22 2007 18:34:05

    Sorry, didn't really think closely about the ThumbIndexAround whilst I wrote, ofcourse it can't start in T12.

    It appears that Sunrise also let's the pen slip into the T1 slot before it goes around 1, which means I am not doing the Tornado after all but a new trick. On SweSpin we have just always refered to what I did as a Tornado, and what Sunrise did as a Fake Double. At least I think so.. Okay, this just confused me even more dry.gif


    EDIT    : I just talked to Sunrise about Tornados, apparently the "Tornado" I did is by some said to be right, but to be accurate it's wrong. Even if it's not an accurate Tornado, it's still refered to as Tornado though, and has no real other name. The correct Tornado has only 1 push, which makes it different from our Fake Double, no? There are also a lot of discussions on JEB, and to settle this once and for all I sugest that both boards come up with a name that works for the non accurate "Tornado" that I did, to avoid further confusion.

    If our Fake Double is identical to their Tornado / 12 spread double I don't know. According to Sunrise the Tornado absolutely has but one push, and since our Fake Double has more pushes it's different.

    EDIT AGAIN: When we do Fake Double, the pen ends up in 12 before getting passed on to TA postition. In Tornado it does a complete around from T1 to TA postition without any additional catch or push since the start of the trick.

  40. sketching
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 00:37:01

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 22 2007, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    @ sketching: But the pen never goes into the T1 slot before going around my Index. And I just realized Tornado actually has 2.0 rotations, and not 1.5 as I have thought all the time dry.gif

    Are you talking about at the end of the combo?

  41. LMnet
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 06:41:31

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 23 2007, 01:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Sorry, didn't really think closely about the ThumbIndexAround whilst I wrote, ofcourse it can't start in T12.

    It appears that Sunrise also let's the pen slip into the T1 slot before it goes around 1, which means I am not doing the Tornado after all but a new trick. On SweSpin we have just always refered to what I did as a Tornado, and what Sunrise did as a Fake Double. At least I think so.. Okay, this just confused me even more dry.gif


    EDIT    : I just talked to Sunrise about Tornados, apparently the "Tornado" I did is by some said to be right, but to be accurate it's wrong. Even if it's not an accurate Tornado, it's still refered to as Tornado though, and has no real other name. The correct Tornado has only 1 push, which makes it different from our Fake Double, no? There are also a lot of discussions on JEB, and to settle this once and for all I sugest that both boards come up with a name that works for the non accurate "Tornado" that I did, to avoid further confusion.

    If our Fake Double is identical to their Tornado / 12 spread double I don't know. According to Sunrise the Tornado absolutely has but one push, and since our Fake Double has more pushes it's different.

    EDIT AGAIN: When we do Fake Double, the pen ends up in 12 before getting passed on to TA postition. In Tornado it does a complete around from T1 to TA postition without any additional catch or push since the start of the trick.


    Fake double has 1 push (TA push), like Tornado. Fake double and Tornado have the same number of ritations, both spins in the same way, both spins around thumb and index finger and have the same finish position. Only difference, it's in tornado pen don't touch middle finger. But it's very hard to see this difference on the video. So, why we need to make 2 difference names for almost same tricks? This difference looks more like difference between styles of different spinners. I think we don't need to use word Tornado.

  42. sketching
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 06:45:00

    Edit: the Fake Double that came from Fake Triple has a Pass Reverse involved, that adds a second push after the Thumbaround push. That's 2 pushes.

    As far as I've seen anyone say, Tornado is Thumbaround ~ Korean Bak Reverse. That's a finger push and a fingerless push. 2 pushes.

  43. Sfsr
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 08:27:32

    QUOTE (LMnet @ Sep 23 2007, 08:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Fake double has 1 push (TA push), like Tornado. Fake double and Tornado have the same number of ritations, both spins in the same way, both spins around thumb and index finger and have the same finish position. Only difference, it's in tornado pen don't touch middle finger. But it's very hard to see this difference on the video. So, why we need to make 2 difference names for almost same tricks? This difference looks more like difference between styles of different spinners. I think we don't need to use word Tornado.

    Fake Double has 2 pushes, just like sketching said. And yes, the only difference is that Tornado has a push less, and that it doesn't touch 2 before going in TA postition again. I don't know if it's worth a trickname of it's own, but the difference is still bigger then you make it seem. It's like the difference between TA -> TA and Double TA (which now kinda is renamed to TA -> Fl TA, but still). If you watch Sunrises video you see the difference to a Fake Double better.

    QUOTE (sketching @ Sep 23 2007, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Edit: the Fake Double that came from Fake Triple has a Pass Reverse involved, that adds a second push after the Thumbaround push. That's 2 pushes.

    As far as I've seen anyone say, Tornado is Thumbaround ~ Korean Bak Reverse. That's a finger push and a fingerless push. 2 pushes.

    Then Fake Double has 3 pushes? TA -> PassAround T1-12 -> Pass Rev 12-T12. That's a finger push, a fingerless push and another finger push. Can we really count "fingerless pushes", thus motions created only by the movement of your hand, as pushes?


    But whilst both these tricks actually can be broken down easily, the non-accurate Tornado in my video can't really. Hybrids like Sonic Clip 34-24 ~ Pass Rev 24-12 can easily be broken down, since the pen actually goes into a fixed slot before commencing the next trick. With the non accurate Tornado, the pen does no such thing, it just spins past a slot into the next, completing "2 tricks" while doing so.

  44. sketching
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 08:34:52

    I put Fake Double in between Extended TA and Fake Triple...

    Ext TA = TA T2-T1 ~ Passaround T1-12 = 1.5 rotations = 1 push

    Fake Double = Ext TA > Pass Reverse 12-T1 = 2 rotations = 2 pushes

    Fake Triple = Fake Double > TA T1-T1 = 3 rotations = 3 pushes

    A push is simply a action upon the pen to get it moving. Whether you use a single finger or an entire hand shouldn't matter, if you push the pen, you push the pen.

    If you don't have the Extended TA hybrid yet, you could also do Fake Double as:
    Thumbaround ~> FL Passaround T1-12 > Pass Reverse 12-T1...
    that would have very little vision difference and you could still get away with saying Fake Double with little chance of being questioned about it.

  45. Sfsr
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 08:56:42

    How comes the pen can go around the Index without any extra push in Ext TA and Fake Double but not in Tornado? You need to move your hand a little to make the pen do that in Ext TA, so I don't see why it wouldn't there be a "fingerless push" there. And in your last breakdown, doesn't it even show that the trick has 3 pushes, fingerless ones included? And if we would write out the combos using the Interrupted notation system, wouldn't Tornado only have 1 push and Fake Double 2?

    ThumbAround T12-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Korean BackAround Reverse T1-T1 [c][s 1.0]
    ThumbAround T12-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ FL Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5] ~> Pass Reverse 12-T1 [p][c][s 0.5]

  46. TayYH89
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 09:07:38

    QUOTE (sketching @ Sep 21 2007, 05:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    These days, Fake Double is just an umbrella term for a hybrid that has the pen going around the Thumb, then over the Index finger, and is caught in the writing position, completing 2 full rotations. The specifics are left up to you to explain with the new notation that was invented to find an answer to this specific question. Just think of Fake Double as being an idea for how to move the pen a certain way, then figure out how you actually want to accomplish that idea.
    Can we all just agree with this and not try to make things so difficult by trying to differentiate 2 things that are visually very similar?

  47. toast
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 12:05:15

    the problem is that is just has very differently technical feels (and doesn't look similar at all IMO)

    They link to different spins, and breakdowns have to be completed with the correct kind of fake double noted, instead of just simply having another name.

  48. Aries
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 12:17:12

    In reference to Eso's Tutorial video, he says that a ext. TA is basically a TA then it goes Weis BackAround Rev./Korean and then you catch it. Think That's pretty simple. dry.gif

  49. Sfsr
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 13:19:27

    But since people tend to do these tricks differently from others, Eso included, you can't say that's "the right way" because that's how Eso says it is.

    @ TayYH89: for me that could work with Fake Double and the accurate Tornado, but it doesn't work with the non-accurate version. What to do with that, then?

    We could keep the name Tornado for it, and use Fake Double for both our version and the Japanese 12 Spread Double / Tornado version of it.

  50. LMnet
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 16:06:27

    Why u guys think that FAke double have 2 pushes? I see only one, TA push. Pen just goes around Thumb and Index finger after 1 push. And i don't think that pass rev 12-T1 have push. When u doing Twisted sonic > TA combo, u make only 2 pushes, Twisted sonic and TA push. But between this tricks there is pass rev 12-T1, u just ignore it.

  51. Sfsr
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 16:17:06

    Using the new Interrupted Trick Notation system, it has 2.

  52. sketching
    Date: Sun, Sep 23 2007 18:56:00

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 23 2007, 01:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    How comes the pen can go around the Index without any extra push in Ext TA and Fake Double but not in Tornado? You need to move your hand a little to make the pen do that in Ext TA, so I don't see why it wouldn't there be a "fingerless push" there. And in your last breakdown, doesn't it even show that the trick has 3 pushes, fingerless ones included? And if we would write out the combos using the Interrupted notation system, wouldn't Tornado only have 1 push and Fake Double 2?

    ThumbAround T12-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Korean BackAround Reverse T1-T1 [c][s 1.0]
    ThumbAround T12-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ FL Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5] ~> Pass Reverse 12-T1 [p][c][s 0.5]


    Alright, hopefully this post alone, if you haven't already figured it out, should show why we should not use these names for various combos that all look quite similar and should just be broken down individually...

    You can perform Extended Thumbaround in a way that simply has the pen flipping over the top of the Index finger without any further push. You just need to position the Index finger in the correct place. Look at Kam's Extended TA video on the old Pentix website. I do not believe that he has a second push for that.

    Anyway here are a few ways of performing the various combos with different amounts of pushes..

    Extended Thumbaround
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5][c]
    • 1 push, the momentum carries the pen over the Index finger without another push
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Fingerless Passaround T1-T2 [p][s 0.5][c]
    • 2 pushes, you use the Index finger to help the pen flip over if you cannot yet do it without a push
    Fake Double
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Passaround T1-12 [s 0.5][c] > Pass Reverse 12-T1
    • 2 pushes, the momentum carries the pen over the Index finger without another push, another push for the Pass Reverse
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ (Weis) Backaround Reverse T1-T12
    • 2 pushes, you cut off the TA with a normal Bak Rev
    "Tornado" -- Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Fingerless Indexaround T1-T1
    • 2 pushes, you use the Index finger to push the pen around the Index
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Fingerless Passaround T1-12 [p][s 0.5][c] > Pass Reverse 12-T1
    • 3 pushes, you use the Index finger to help the pen flip over if you cannot yet do it without a push, another push for the Pass Reverse
    @LMet: When you start Thumbaround, the pen is facing a certain direction and needs to end in a certain direction to be counted as a full rotation. I tend to have the pen facing downward at the start of the TA. After doing an Extended Thumbaround with only one push, the pen ends up facing horizontally away from me. I can position my Thumb so that the back of the pen lands in the T1 slot, almost finishing a Fake Double with only push. The problem is that the pen has not finished 2 full rotations. There still needs to be a bit more rotation to bring the pen back into the starting position. That rotation is done by rotating the pen slightly with the Index and Middle fingers. Even though it is only a small amount of push, it is still a push to get the pen into proper position.

    As for Twisted Sonic, it is a hybrid and not not single trick:
    Charge 23 [p][s 0.5] ~ Pass Reverse [s 0.5] ~ Charge [p][s 0.5][c]

    The last charge rotation is needed to bring the pen fully into 1.5 rotations. The last bit of Charge rotation has a second push. You can use finger positioning and the momentum of the first Charge rotation to skip the push for the Pass Reverse, but there is another direction change for last Charge rotation.

  53. LMnet
    Date: Mon, Sep 24 2007 05:13:51

    QUOTE (sketching @ Sep 24 2007, 01:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Alright, hopefully this post alone, if you haven't already figure it out, should show why we shouldn't use these names for various combos that all look quite similar and should just be broken down individually...

    You can perform Extended Thumbaround in a way that simply has the pen flipping over the top of the Index finger without any further push. You just need to position the Index finger in the correct place. Look at kam's Extended TA video on the old Pentix website. I do not believe that he gas a second push for that.

    Anyway here are a few ways of performing the various combos with different amounts of pushes..

    Extended Thumbaround
    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Passaround T1-T2 [s 0.5][c]
    • 1 push, the momentum carries the pen over the Index finger withou another push



    Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Passaround T1-T2 [s 0.5][c]

    I think it must be Inverse PassAround reverse or Neo-sonic reverse, not simply passaround. And it must ends in 12, not in T2. And all other yours breakdownings with PassAround isn't right.

    As for twisted sonic, i think:
    Twisted sonic = Charge 23 [p][s 0.75] ~ Pass Reverse [s 0.5] ~ Charge [p][s 0.25][c]

    But this is the theme for another topic tongue.gif

  54. sketching
    Date: Mon, Sep 24 2007 05:43:37

    Thanks for the Passaround notation misspelling. Changed, along with alot of other misspellings. >_<

    Inverse Passaround does not make any sense. Arounds can not have inverses because they do not spin any given side, they travel around. Just because they start and end on one side or another, I see no reason to say they are inverse. Finger notation is used to tell where the pen starts and ends.

    NeoSonic ends in the Thumbflap. NeoSonic Reverse must then start in the Thumbflap. With these combos, the pen is just coming from the T1 slot, not the Thumbflap, so Passaround works better, in my opinion.

  55. LMnet
    Date: Mon, Sep 24 2007 07:32:59

    PassAround is very special Around. It don't looks like other FingerArounds. Standart PassAround normal 23-12 = Inverse Neo-sonic reverse 23-12. PassAround don't have full rotation around middle finger, it has only 0.5 rotation (like neo-sonic). In my opinion, PassAround = MiddleAround normal [p][s 0.5] ~ [c 12]. PassAround can have inverse variations, because it's travel in the palm part of the finger, not in top side. But there is inverse passaround, because u can start this trick like MA rev and catch in 12. That would be Inverse PassAround normal 23-12, it's travel around finger on the top side of the finger.
    Difference between neo-sonic and pass: pass and neo-sonic both starts and ends between 2 fingers. But in the middle part of pass, u hold the pen with 3 fingers, but in neo-sonic u don't hold the pen, it goes around finger with 0.5 rotations. And i don't think that neo-sonic must always ends in TF position. In neo-sonic harmonic 12-T1-12 neo-sonic normal don't ends in TF, it ends in T1. And neo-sonic rev starts from T1 and ends in 12.
    Neo-sonic reverse it's just pass, that goes down in slots and don't hold with any figers in the middle of this trick.
    So, PassAround normal 23-12 = Inverse Neo-sonic normal 23-12

    In your examples passaround travel around index finger on the top side, so it must be inverse passaround or neo-sonic. And it goes dowh in slots, so it must be reverse passaround/neo-sonic.

  56. Eso
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 14:53:06

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Sep 23 2007, 08:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    But since people tend to do these tricks differently from others, Eso included, you can't say that's "the right way" because that's how Eso says it is.


    Why not? ssst.gif


    This is a late ass reply but I wanted to say two things.

    1) The way I taught in my video is Extended ThumbAround. The way Kam did it in his video is also Extended ThumbAround. Simple and plain as that. They both have the same push, same catch, the only difference would be the way the index finger is oriented. That alone does not warrant the entirely different naming and confusion that's been going on.

    2) Sfsr, what you have been calling Tornado does not agree with what the wiki says. I looked at your battle with Samuirai carefully and I concluded that what you are doing is ThumbIndexAround 1.5. This was mentioned some time ago back in UCPSB but I don't remember it getting much attention. You place your emphasis on the fact that the pen never slips in between T and 1. That's fine. If you don't want anymore needless discussions on how to name what you are doing, how about using ThumbIndexAround 1.5?


    I'm going to make a video clearing all of this up. I'll have to read through the posts again to make sure I didn't leave anything out, nor make any mistakes.

  57. Sfsr
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 15:18:15

    Again, what the wiki or anyone says doesn't mean it is right. The wiki might not agree with what I say it is (since the the wiki right now pretty much = sketching) but Sunrise among others agrees that this trick is a what Japanese people call a Tornado, and if we are to listen to anyone why not listen to those who invented the trick?

    I've written before, on JEB there are two ways to do a Tornado. I do the one of them which isn't totally agreed upon and not used quite as often as the Fake Double looking Tornado (which basically is a Fake Double).

    Also, the pen rotates 2.0 ssst.gif So it would rather be a ThumbIndexSpinAround 2.0

  58. LMnet
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 15:22:44

    QUOTE (Eso @ Jan 8 2008, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Why not? ssst.gif


    This is a late ass reply but I wanted to say two things.

    1) The way I taught in my video is Extended ThumbAround. The way Kam did it in his video is also Extended ThumbAround. Simple and plain as that. They both have the same push, same catch, the only difference would be the way the index finger is oriented. That alone does not warrant the entirely different naming and confusion that's been going on.

    2) Sfsr, what you have been calling Tornado does not agree with what the wiki says. I looked at your battle with Samuirai carefully and I concluded that what you are doing is ThumbIndexAround 1.5. This was mentioned some time ago back in UCPSB but I don't remember it getting much attention. You place your emphasis on the fact that the pen never slips in between T and 1. That's fine. If you don't want anymore needless discussions on how to name what you are doing, how about using ThumbIndexAround 1.5?


    I'm going to make a video clearing all of this up. I'll have to read through the posts again to make sure I didn't leave anything out, nor make any mistakes.

    His trick have 2 rotation, not 1.5

    EDIT: Sfsr, u again start this duscussin. We not on JEB, we on UPSB. Japan spinners use they own naming system, we use another. They independent of each other, so we can't use some stuff from Japanese naming system.

  59. Eso
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 16:20:25

    QUOTE (LMnet @ Jan 8 2008, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    His trick have 2 rotation, not 1.5


    1) Look at the beginning position of a TA. Now hold your hand flat. Take the pen and put it between 12. Now do a TA, then do a ThumbIndexAround. The beginning and ending position of the pen should be equal. Now try to do Sfsr's "Tornado". It ends opposite of what it originally started, therefore it consists of 1.5 rotations. HOWEVER, if you include Pass Rev 12-T1, then yes, 2.0 rotations.

    2) Sfsr, the discrepancy here is that while you think Tornado is one thing, other people think Tornado is another. Using other terms, your Tornado is a ThumbIndexAround (or -Spin) 1.5, BUT other people think the Tornado is Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Fingerless IndexAround T1-12 [s 0.5][c].
    Now, since you claim that Sunrise and other JEB members say that what you do is a Tornado, fine. But good luck trying to change the general mindset that (Tornado == Ext. TA). Personally, I think all of this can be avoided if we just use the aforementioned terminology for the time being. Although it's a longer name, it will avoid any confusions until we can decide once and for all what Tornado means to non-Japanese spinners.

    3) The crux of all of this confusion is how to distinguish between the different ways to achieve pushing the pen around the Thumb and Index, make it go 1.5 rotations, and catch between 12. I personally believe that this solution is best:
    • Get rid of the name "Fake Double"
    • If the pen goes around the thumb THEN index, then it's a Ext. TA
    • If the pen goes over both thumb and index at the same time, then it's a ThumbIndexAround 1.5


    4) If you guys don't like the name "ThumbIndexAround 1.5", then everybody needs to make up their mind about the name "Tornado". If there isn't any consistency within JEB on the term "Tornado" then why should we use it? We have enough confusion as it is. ThumbIndexAround 1.5 seems best to me.

  60. sketching
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 16:58:30

    If ThumbIndexaround is: Thumbaround 0.5 T2-T1 ~ Indexaround 0.5 T1-12,

    then ThumbIndexaround 1.5 would be:
    Thumbaround 0.5 T2-T1 ~ Halftap 0.5 ~ Indexaround 0.5 T1-12
    ...right?

    If so, it should probably just be called ThumbIndexspin 1.5.


    About Tornado, UCPSB was calling Tornado: Thumbaround 1.0 T2-T12 ~ "Korean" Backaround Reverse T12-T12.

    Can anyone give a link to the first Tornado video?

  61. Eso
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 17:09:49

    QUOTE (sketching @ Jan 8 2008, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    If ThumbIndexaround is: Thumbaround 0.5 T2-T1 ~ Indexaround 0.5 T1-12,

    then ThumbIndexaround 1.5 would be:
    Thumbaround 0.5 T2-T1 ~ Halftap 0.5 ~ Indexaround 0.5 T1-12
    ...right?

    If so, it should probably just be called ThumbIndexspin 1.5.


    About Tornado, UCPSB was calling Tornado: Thumbaround 1.0 T2-T12 ~ "Korean" Backaround Reverse T12-T12.

    Can anyone give a link to the first Tornado video?


    1) I don't know about the Halftap in the middle. How would you break down BackAround 1.5? They use the same principles, but spin on top of different fingers. But I do agree that it would be called ThumbIndexSpin 1.5. It's just odd to me that if you would designate anything over 1.0 spins as a "-Spin", then it should apply to BackAround 1.5. dunno.gif

    2)
    CODE
    If BackAround Reverse = Fingerless IndexAround
    ThumbAround 1.0 T2-T1 ~ Fingerless IndexAround 0.5 T1-12.
    ==
    Thumbaround 1.0 T2-T12 ~ "Korean" Backaround Reverse T12-T12

    The nuance between the two is extremely small, if it even exists. Aside from the angular positioning with respect to gravity, there's no difference.

  62. LMnet
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 17:12:26

    QUOTE (sketching @ Jan 8 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Can anyone give a link to the first Tornado video?

    Tornado by Aysh

  63. Zombo
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 17:15:03

    earliest video has got to be Hideaki Kondoh.

    Unfortunately his site is down.

    Reference: http://www.pentrix.com/upsb2/viewtopic.php?t=4867

  64. sketching
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 17:16:03

    @Eso: I just used that breakdown see if that is the path of the pen that you all are talking about. If so, I'm cool with that being ThumbIndexspin 1.5. Makes sense to me. tongue.gif

    @LMnet: thanks.
    Aysh's videos looks like Thumbaround T2-T1 ~ Fingerless Indexaround T1-T12 to me. That's what Toast, I believe, was fighting to have the hybrid called in UCPSB. He was using "Korean" Backaround instead of FL IA, but it's the same thing.

  65. LMnet
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 18:06:32

    Zombo, Aysh is really old timer, so, i think this video is good enough for this thread to show standart tornado

  66. Sfsr
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 19:37:38

    I don't even want to comment more but look what I ended up with.


    QUOTE
    Sfsr, u again start this duscussin. We not on JEB, we on UPSB. Japan spinners use they own naming system, we use another. They independent of each other, so we can't use some stuff from Japanese naming system.
    I did not start this discussion, I stated what tricks I did and explained to Samuirai how they in my opinion were performed. UPSB is a fucking international board. Since when do I need permission to use the notation of my own homeboard (SweSpin)? Especially for a trick which apperently does not exist otherwise in UPSB?

    QUOTE
    Now try to do Sfsr's "Tornado". It ends opposite of what it originally started, therefore it consists of 1.5 rotations. HOWEVER, if you include Pass Rev 12-T1, then yes, 2.0 rotations.
    Faulty. You might not have noticed but the Tornado I do actually ends in TA position (the Fl Pass Rev is a part of the trick) and thus completes a full 2.0 rotations. Take a look at the finnishing Tornado in my combo. Now, if we were to do what you said in 3) it would be different. I'll get back to it then.

    QUOTE
    Sfsr, the discrepancy here is that while you think Tornado is one thing, other people think Tornado is another [---] BUT other people think the Tornado is Thumbaround T2-T1 [p][s 1.0] ~ Fingerless IndexAround T1-12 [s 0.5][c].
    People could think two different tricks are Tornados. One of 'em is the video posted of Aysh posted by LMnet which you also quite correctly described here ('cept for the catch), the other is what I do. Both are Tornados.

    QUOTE
    Using other terms, your Tornado is a ThumbIndexAround (or -Spin) 1.5,
    ThumbIndexSpin 2.0 T12-T12 the way I see it, could be a correct term. Read thigs and sketchings earlier posts though, a TIA starts from 12.

    QUOTE
    * If the pen goes around the thumb THEN index, then it's a Ext. TA
    * If the pen goes over both thumb and index at the same time, then it's a ThumbIndexAround 1.5
    I agree completely with the Ext TA, but storngly dislike the idea of calling a Tornado for a ThumbIndexAround... If we would call the trick that spins 1.5 over T and 1 at the same time for Tornado (instead of ThumbIndexAround 1.5 as you suggest) then I indeed only do a Tornado 1.5 with a pass after it. This is not the case though, the last 0.5 is completed as a part of the Tornado.

    QUOTE
    About Tornado, UCPSB was calling Tornado: Thumbaround 1.0 T2-T12 ~ "Korean" Backaround Reverse T12-T12.
    Which would be the other version of Tornado, not the version I am doing.

    QUOTE
    Tornado by Aysh
    Which also is the other version of Tornado and not the one we are supposed to be discussing

    QUOTE
    Aysh's videos looks like Thumbaround T2-T1 ~ Fingerless Indexaround T1-T12 to me. That's what Toast, I believe, was fighting to have the hybrid called in UCPSB. He was using "Korean" Backaround instead of FL IA, but it's the same thing.
    Yup, that would yet again be the version of Tornado I am not doing. Congratulations.


    Video where I try to show how some tricks are executed according to me. First ThumbIndexAround, then ThumbIndexAround 1.5, Tornado the way I do it, second version of Tornado done in Aysh video, Fake Double (which would be a Ext TA if the last pass was removed)


    I hope everyone can agree to some basic things atleast:

    - An Ext TA is not the same as the trick I do
    - An Ext TA is a TA followed by a transfer to 12
    - What I do is one version of the trick Japanese people call Tornado
    - Aysh video shows the other version
    - The "other version" (as done by Aysh in mentioned video) is a "Japanese" Ext. TA, which is exactly like ours but performed more fingerless



    Now the only thing left is whether a Tornado the way I do it can be called a ThumbIndexAround, or not.

  67. Eso
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 21:08:53

    QUOTE (Sfsr @ Jan 8 2008, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I hope everyone can agree to some basic things atleast:

    - An Ext TA is not the same as the trick I do
    - An Ext TA is a TA followed by a transfer to 12
    - What I do is one version of the trick Japanese people call Tornado
    - Aysh video shows the other version
    - The "other version" (as done by Aysh in mentioned video) is a "Japanese" Ext. TA, which is exactly like ours but performed more fingerless

    Now the only thing left is whether a Tornado the way I do it can be called a ThumbIndexAround, or not.



    I agree with most of the points. I do have one question for you. If what you do is called a Tornado, then what would you call whatever Aysh did?
    And to answer your question, yes I do think that the Tornado you do is a ThumbIndexSpin. The only problem with this is the last FL Pass Rev. You make it part of the Tornado, and that's perfectly fine. I just think that Tornado = ThumbIndexSpin 1.5 > FL Pass Rev 12-T1

  68. Sfsr
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 21:44:37

    Agreed. What Aysh did is also a Tornado, check out the edits in my some post after I had talked to Sunrise. If I would do it myself I'd just write it as Ext TA though, since that form of Tornado is what I see an Ext TA as.

  69. Colt
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 21:51:07

    Im pretty sure a Fake Double and Tornado are the same thing.

    When I do Ext TA, I interrupt the thumbaround and do the FL IA or whatever so it only makes 1.5 revolutions.

    However, when I do Fake Double/Tornado, I wait for the thumbaround to be just about completed until doing the FL IA so it makes two.

    Either way, I think all the variations look insanely similar, and I don't think it is worth discussing about THAT much.

    Correct me if I'm wrong. dry.gif

  70. Zombo
    Date: Tue, Jan 8 2008 22:52:19

    well there have been isntances where two tricks have the same name.

    i.e backaround (weis/korean), indexspin multiple (zombo/tohlz).

    you just need to specify which version you do to avoid misunderstanding.

    and unless you determine what the default version is, you should always mention which one it is. or use standard interrupted notation.

  71. sketching
    Date: Wed, Jan 9 2008 01:43:12

    @Sfsr: I've only ever heard of Tornado being that which Aysh is doing, which was posted on Hideaki's site. Where did the other Tornado naming (the ThumbIndexaround 1.5 version) come from?

  72. Sfsr
    Date: Wed, Jan 9 2008 08:46:51

    QUOTE (Colt @ Jan 8 2008, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Im pretty sure a Fake Double and Tornado are the same thing.

    When I do Ext TA, I interrupt the thumbaround and do the FL IA or whatever so it only makes 1.5 revolutions.

    However, when I do Fake Double/Tornado, I wait for the thumbaround to be just about completed until doing the FL IA so it makes two.

    Either way, I think all the variations look insanely similar, and I don't think it is worth discussing about THAT much.

    Correct me if I'm wrong. dry.gif
    You're wrong. Well, you're right in what you say, but you clearly haven't read all posts and thus; you are wrong. This isn't what we're discussing, we're discussing the ThumbIndexAround version of Tornado which is not what you described. And yet again, how can you know that what you see as a Tornado actually is a tornado?

    QUOTE (sketching @ Jan 9 2008, 02:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    @Sfsr: I've only ever heard of Tornado being that which Aysh is doing, which was posted on Hideaki's site. Where did the other Tornado naming (the ThumbIndexaround 1.5 version) come from?
    I'm not sure where it came from. I first learned one of the SweSpin versions of Tornado, which is TA -> Rev (weis) BackAround. I didn't like that version so much though, so I gradually developed it into the Tornado I am doing now, which is also called a Tornado on SweSpin. I think I ended up with it by watching some solovideos, I believe Gold does Tornados like these in the beginning of his video, but other then that I don't remember where I've seen it. Then this discussion came up again and I talked to Sunrise about it, who explained to me that there were two ways of doing the Tornado. I think the Ext TA version will more often be refered to as "'1,2-Spread Double" on JEB though, and this version as Tornado.

    - Gold
    - Sunrise
    - SweSpin

    Those are the sources I know I've gotten this Tornado version of.


    EDIT: Suggestions:

    - Start using the term Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev instead of Fake Double.
    - Use the term Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev for the version of Tornado which Aysh does. The term Tornado can also be used but then it has to be specified what version it is, for example Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev can be replaced by "Tornado (Original)". If NeoTornado is introduced then this can be described as just "Tornado", though Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev is prefered.
    - Allow the term Tornado being used for the NeoTornado, but specified that that is what it is. ThumbIndexSpin 2.0 T12-T12 can be replaced by Tornado (neo) or just NeoTornado.

  73. sketching
    Date: Thu, Jan 10 2008 02:57:57

    RE: suggestions...

    QUOTE
    - Start using the term Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev instead of Fake Double.
    That could work if that combo is what is actually being performed...
    QUOTE
    - Use the term Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev for the version of Tornado which Aysh does. The term Tornado can also be used but then it has to be specified what version it is, for example Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev can be replaced by "Tornado (Original)". If NeoTornado is introduced then this can be described as just "Tornado", though Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev is prefered.
    That combo is not what Aysh is doing. The pen starts spinning around the index finger from a push from the T1 slot. It really is just Thumbaround ~ Fingerless Indexaround. Calling what is done is Aysh's video "Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev" would be wrong. That notation assumes a single push to get the pen into the 12 slot, then a fingerless push from the 12 slot to the T1 slot. The pen travels completely around the index finger from a single push. That was the main argument in UCPSB as why it was different than Extended Thumbaround & Fake Double, the push is from a different location. Since that hybrid has been called Tornado for years (I only checked recently in UPSBv2 for Tornado discussions and its been used for over 4 years now) we may as well keep the Tornado name for that. It's the most widely known way of doing Tornado is UPSB and UCPSB.
    QUOTE
    - Allow the term Tornado being used for the NeoTornado, but specified that that is what it is. IndexMiddleSpin 2.0 T12-T12 can be replaced by Tornado (neo) or just NeoTornado.
    The "Neo" name extension already has a history of being given to tricks that are done (or could be done) by accident when trying to do an existing trick. "Neo" in these cases refer to "Neophyte" not a new version of something. Calling ThumbIndexaround 1.5 (I assume you meant ThumbIndexarund rather than IndexMiddlearound) NeoTornado wouldn't make any sense, I don't think people tend to do this when trying to do Hideaki's Tornado.

    Calling ThumbIndexaround 1.5 by the name "ThumbIndexaround 1.5" makes enough sense as that fairly accurately describes what is being done, aside from just using the Interrupted Trick Notation.


    Overall, I suggest ditching the terms Extended Thumbaround, Fake Double and Tornado altogether. Using informal notation doesn't make for much additional typing anyway...
    Ext TA = TA 1.0 T2-T1 ~ FL IA 0.5 T1-12
    Fake Double = TA 1.0 T2-T1 ~ FL IA 0.5 T1-12 ~> Pass 12-T1
    Tornado = TA 1.0 T2-T1 ~ FL IA T1-T1

    Any variations in performance (starting/ending in T12, etc...) can easily be notated to show what is actually being done. No need for any confusion by using names in the first place.

  74. Fang15832
    Date: Thu, Jan 10 2008 06:27:49

    ok well IMO (you don't need to heed what i think, plz don't flame me etc etc.)

    topics being argued (that im adressing)
    1) tornado sfsr way and the way aysh does it in his video
    2) fake double
    3) extended TA kams version and how eso teaches in tutorial
    4) and something about thumbindex arounds huh.gif

    What i think
    1) Well what i first thought was being tornado was the way sfsr said he was doing it so i think that we should call that neotornado and the one aysh did tornado around upsb. my reasoning because technically this is an international board so we can use names from another countries tricks its within our jurisdiction to be free being international. and about swespin calling sfsrs version tornado is fine just specify which one your talking about. IMO its a universal rule that when your in another more if not completely foreign place, are a guest, or aren't i guess what you can call "giving your full allegiance", then you abide to their rules and their culture. No offense sfsr, but this is upsb not jeb or swespin so the rules and naming they give there really does not apply here but its nice to know how other people name it.
    2) the fake double i think can keep its name or be added in as another notation with just an extra push for tornado. so either keep and make it its own trick or just as an informal notation to tornado section saying that it has an extra push
    3) its the same thing just add in the spin revolutions when explaining what ext TA your performing/performed/will perform
    4) isn't it just a thumbindex around? but similiar looking to sfsrs tornado but not it in a complete sense

    So all in all i think that it doesn't matter what name it is it's the trick whether you look at it in an individual sense or a group sense as long as its accepted and it makes sense to everyone because this whole arguement is what i think just about who's name wins and which trick should be dominant and the other as just a variation.
    also just an off topic but what i think is a helpful hint advice: Change is good, because no matter what if all you do is blow off your arguement and don't resolve your problem then it's just going to happen again and make even more problems. besides the earlier we teach this method now and lead the newer people (including myself) to knowing the difference and having no confusions whatsoever. Your method can't always win so let that manly pride die down a lil just for other peoples sake. So even if my reasoning is wrong and i made no solutions to our problems I still believe my last advice is helpful to this arguement over the names.
    PS in case something in my points seem a definite wrong then just mention it I'm still pretty noobish at psing so i might not have said something completely accurately
    I will now go to bed please stop the fighting soon

  75. Sfsr
    Date: Thu, Jan 10 2008 08:55:18

    Yeah, I meant ThumbIndex and not IndexMiddle :/

    Does a ThumbIndexAround start in TA postition? Does it end up in TA position? If you write ThumbIndexSpin 2.0 T12-T12 could it not just be like a ThumbSpin, but spin on Thumb and Index and only go around the Thumb? The trick I do ends up in T12 without any extra pushes, just like Aysh tornado, why can mine be described as IndexMiddleAround -> Fl Pass Rev but not his as Ext TA -> Fl Pass Rev (~ or w/e)?

    EDIT    : I thouhgt the "Neo" just stood for new btw, never heard the word "Neophyte" and wikipedias explanation doesn't make much sense..

  76. LMnet
    Date: Thu, Jan 10 2008 15:56:02

    ThumbIndexAround start in TA position and ends in IA position. Or, it can ends in TA position, depends on what slots u write in breakdown, TIA T1-12 or TIA T1-T1. But it can't start in IA position. If trick start in IA position and land around Index and Thumb finger, it would be IndexThumbAround 12-12. But there ITA 12-T1 isn't exist, it would be TA 12-T1

  77. Fang15832
    Date: Thu, Jan 10 2008 17:38:47

    from dictionary.com
    1. a beginner or novice: He's a neophyte at chess.
    2. Roman Catholic Church. a novice.
    3. a person newly converted to a belief, as a heathen, heretic, or nonbeliever; proselyte.
    4. Primitive Church. a person newly baptized.
    wikipedias definition isn't very accurate tongue.gif

  78. Sfsr
    Date: Thu, Jan 10 2008 20:45:46

    @ LMnet:

    QUOTE (thig @ Sep 21 2007, 08:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    As far as I know ThumbIndexAround Normal starts in the 12-slot, goes around both the thumb and index, and is caught in the 12-slot. Any other around that starts in T1 and involves going around the thumb and another finger is a hybrid of ThumbAround and (finger)Around or Thumbaround -> (finger)Around.
    Who is right and who is wrong? :/

  79. sketching
    Date: Thu, Jan 10 2008 21:32:52

    Right now....not really anyone. The point of the hybrid notation was to stop confusions like this and to get rid of the need for trying to give names to minor hybrid combos.

    For something like ThumbIndexaround, the most sensible trick to give the name to would be an Indexaround that also goes around the thumb,what thing said. Similarly, an IndexMiddlearound would have a Middlearound push and catch that has the pen go around both index and middle fingers.

    With that said, none of the names are official, so nothing can definitely be said to be right or wrong.

  80. LMnet
    Date: Fri, Jan 11 2008 04:36:23

    I think it must be theme of another topic. But i'm pretty sure that i'm right, and i can explane why, but i don't want to offtopic.

  81. Sfsr
    Date: Fri, Jan 11 2008 09:38:57

    I can't even do a regular ThumbIndexAround from TA position.. Also, I never understood the "get rid of all names" thing, why not have formal breakdowns and shorter and suitable names? Since it causes confusion and discussions like this, yeah yeah..

    Well, since this still haven't been resolved I'll keep using the name Tornado and hope atleast some people will respect that.

  82. torune-do
    Date: Sat, Mar 1 2008 10:36:24

    the difference is that tornado is
    normal TA 12-12 and fingerless index around
    tornado goes over and under the index finger is what i heard from my japanese friends in school which are in JEB if it helps...

    i think it is like impossible for me laugh.gif

    but everytime i watch videos i think my friends are wrong because its just like over the half of index finger...

    dont know if what i posted will help...

  83. Sfsr
    Date: Sun, Mar 2 2008 16:11:15

    If you mean 12-12 in Japanese naming then yeah, that's the regular Tornado, if I also understood the rest right.

    More penspinners from the netherlands, nice welcome.gif

  84. stickman
    Date: Wed, Oct 8 2008 21:15:05

    Just woundring, mabey ex ta breakdown should be this:
    ta t1-> fingerless bak rev 12-12
    It sounds way better then the other thing, dosn't it?

  85. TheOnion
    Date: Wed, Oct 8 2008 22:38:05

    QUOTE (stickman @ Oct 8 2008, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Just woundring, mabey ex ta breakdown should be this:
    ta t1-> fingerless bak rev 12-12
    It sounds way better then the other thing, dosn't it?


    No, not really. First, ext ta does normal start t1, but t12 with a middle push. Second you don't call it fingerless backaround, because all backarounds are fingerless. and third, the second part of the hybrid is diffinately not going from 12-12, but from t1-12. You can call that part a half index around, half reverse backaround or fingerless reverse pass, it doesn't really matter, they are all basicly the same.

  86. Ogarathe
    Date: Thu, Oct 9 2008 04:57:04

    I have a question about Fake Double and Ext. TA.

    When you're doing cont ext. TAs, are you actually doing fake doubles? Because to get back to the starting position you have to make the pen go that extra 0.5 revolution.

    ~ Thanks in advance

  87. FrozenIce
    Date: Thu, Oct 9 2008 05:18:39

    QUOTE (Ogarathe @ Oct 8 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I have a question about Fake Double and Ext. TA.

    When you're doing cont ext. TAs, are you actually doing fake doubles? Because to get back to the starting position you have to make the pen go that extra 0.5 revolution.

    ~ Thanks in advance


    Yeah, technically you are doing cont fake doubles. *Waits for Naming Committee to come along*

  88. sketching
    Date: Fri, Oct 10 2008 01:59:46

    Extended Thumbaround generally starts in the T2 slot and ends in the 12 slot, so it's not something that can be done continuously.

    If you add on something like a Pass Reverse 12-T1 or an Indexaround 0.5 12-T1, you would do a Fake Double.

  89. riverboy
    Date: Thu, Oct 23 2008 13:14:09

    there wasn;t much difference...

  90. Shadowserpant
    Date: Thu, Oct 23 2008 23:06:55

    it doesnt matter, this is regarding technical notations
    a trick has to have ending positions

    now i have a question:
    could i do a fake double T1-12?
    as in-
    Ext TA T1-23 ~> FL Pass 23-12
    since it is an extra pass just like the fake double...

  91. Rai289
    Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 08:03:43

    I don't really see how it matters how you do the trick watever it may be so long as you don't stray too far away from the original...

  92. Ogarathe
    Date: Mon, Oct 27 2008 08:25:56

    I've got a question.. how do you do a FL Ext. TA / Fake Double?

    Like..

    Fake Double > FL Ext.TA

    How do you do the FL Ext.TA?

  93. Fire on Blue Ice
    Date: Thu, Jan 15 2009 04:07:06

    Can't a Tornado be a Fake double x3 or more? then that's a tornado, cause it "what it looks like." I'd notate it like that.

  94. need2know
    Date: Sat, May 15 2010 03:10:05

    I saw a video on YouTube of Bonkura doing a combo called the "tornado." is there any tutorials for it? Any help is appreciated...

  95. Tushix
    Date: Sat, May 15 2010 03:18:22

    These days it's just called ext. TA (ext being short for extended). Just watch and attempt. It'll take a while but they are pretty straight forward. The aerial he throws in is just a TA then knocking up the pen. Also really simple.

    Good luck smile.gif

  96. need2know
    Date: Sat, May 15 2010 03:35:47

    Thanks for your help! biggrin.gif