UPSB v3
General Discussion / Did anybody see the 'discussion' last night?
In the Shoutbox.
-
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 09:32:37
Not many people saw this, it was a huge discussion on UPSB, opinions and skill level of UPSB members. Here's a transcript. Some parts are missing. but not much. btw, the times are messed up, but it's in order. Goes from Bottom to Top, sorry, couldn't rearrange it.
CODELog of 'The Discussion on UPSB' in the shoutbox. Very small parts may be missing. Compiled by Tim. Newest posts are at the top and oldest at the bottom, in order.
A minute ago
Tim
Eriror is the best spinner (besides bonkura) in all of the Pen Spinning world. I have been out of it for quite a bit though,
so I may not know some of the other ones.
A minute ago
blank
uspsb is what we should make
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
And who knows if I spin again next year?
A minute ago
Zombo
i wuoldnt mind seeing a seeding system
A minute ago
Mats
Luck? LOL!
A minute ago
Zombo
we'll see how the tournament is arranged
A minute ago
blank
yeah.
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
I've gotten through with luck so often in the previous one.
A minute ago
minche
oh, well. gotta go now. not feeling so good -__-
A minute ago
darkgenesis-spinnerxD
erirornal getting killed? NO WAY!
A minute ago
Icepray
wish there were more swiss :-/
A minute ago
Mats
Erirornal you came SECOND last time... This time you will be one of the favourites to win!
A minute ago
minche
yah i know. this is board for americans, candians, ausies and peoples who don't have their "national" board -__-
2 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
I hope you do realise I'm still getting killed in the WT.
A minute ago
blank
experienced spinners is not everything you need to make a good collab blank -- u could have a noob that does the fundamentals
really smooth and fast and be in a collab like JEB or something
A minute ago
Zombo
since its in english
A minute ago
Mats
lol yeah unless Erirornal represent in World Tourney we are getting killed.
A minute ago
Zombo
theres no reason for americans/ canadians to get their own board... this is their board basically
A minute ago
ar-ar
yey penspinning :)
A minute ago
minche
UPSB is cool, but just wait till canadians, americans and others who are active here get their own boards :/
A minute ago
Zombo
the only worry with not having good spinners on UPSB is for competition purposes...
A minute ago
Mats
Who would you say might come through Sfsr? I don't think I see any spinners on USPB who look capable of catching
Erirornal/Chautran etc.
A minute ago
Zombo
seriously? it's just a "patriotic" thing? i couldnt care less if the best spinners are from korea, japan or whatever
A minute ago
blank
u could have a noob that does the fundamentals really smooth and fast and be in a collab like JEB or something
A minute ago
Tim
Most of the fastest runners in the world are from Africa. Most of the best table tennis players from Asia. Maybe Pen Spinning
just isn't something that USA spinners were born to do. Some are naturally good, but people from other countries are better
easier, in an easier, but better way.
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
Thewave, that doesn't account for me. I'm more impressed by the improvement than by the combo itself.
A minute ago
Mats
Who cares where the best spinners are? :wtf: Zombo? UPSB! UPSB!
A minute ago
Sfsr
But we have some quite new ones that are starting to get good, in 6 months or so we should have a complete new generation. We
can hope for new generations of good spinners to develop on UPSB too
A minute ago
blank
yoah is right on that statement
A minute ago
Thewave
Sfsr- as you improve yourself it gets tougher and tougher for the new people to "catch up" and sometimes you see them as
merely average
A minute ago
Yoah
experienced spinners is not everything you need to make a good collab
A minute ago
Mats
Now yeah, it's just you Erirornal lol Unless Patte gets his skills up soon.
A minute ago
blank
ugh
A minute ago
Zombo
yea im confused on what you're complaining about mats. who cares where the best pen spinners are? we can still watch their
videos
A minute ago
Sfsr
As for Swedish spinners, we're kind of having the same problem right now. There are no good spinners that are newer than me
and Hamor.
A minute ago
Icepray
hehe :P
2 minutes ago
blank
who are the genesis US spinngers
2 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
And now, it's what... Me?
2 minutes ago
Mats
Phya and nhk_9 were... (and YOU Zombo lol)
2 minutes ago
blank
no.......
2 minutes ago
Sfsr
Not here, and who's replacing them? I guess the US Genesis spinners, so that's UPSB's base of good spinners
2 minutes ago
Mats
Michael + Patte were two of the best spinners on UPSB...
2 minutes ago
Thewave
As for americans/canadians/dutch like Mats said
2 minutes ago
Zombo
phya and nhk are canadien
2 minutes ago
Zombo
what?
2 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
UPSB v2? Only active Dutch spinners were Basmens, Michael and Patte.
2 minutes ago
blank
i guess ur right sfsr
2 minutes ago
Thewave
But most of the old school PS'ers left
A minute ago
Yoah
a lot of swedish joined upsb v2 as well
A minute ago
Sfsr
I mean, spinners from the US: Phya, Kaisen, Kelvin, nhk... where are they now?
A minute ago
Tim
I think we should all forgive each other and start over. So, how are you guys going?
A minute ago
Mats
Most of old UPSB's best spinners were Dutch, American, Candian though right? These are still serving UPSB.
A minute ago
Sfsr
Since UPSB's main country is USA, and USA never really developed any new spinners once the few oldies started dissappearing
A minute ago
Thewave
Less and less people are associating themselves to UPSB spinners and more to their own community
A minute ago
blank
thnikk hi
A minute ago
Zombo
if you want to go back to the old ways of UPSB2, we'd have to re-merge all communities back...
A minute ago
Yoah
oh so you f'ed up?
A minute ago
Zombo
but that's only because countries with strong PSers usually make their own community now
A minute ago
thnikk
i sed hai...
A minute ago
Icepray
you can make a good idea through 5minutes but it can be deceiving its all i'm saying, then again first impressions are
important
A minute ago
Zombo
well i agree that the level of UPSB PS is weak compared to other communities
A minute ago
blank
lol
A minute ago
Yoah
and icepray, were did you READ the "5 minutes" ?
A minute ago
Yoah
ill post it
A minute ago
Mats
Yo Yoah, collab idea posted?
A minute ago
Yoah
- icepray
A minute ago
blank
:<.<"
A minute ago
Thewave
And about certain members and their posts- that's innevitable. When a board grows to this size it's realy innevitble to not
have a few spammers/falmers/etc...
A minute ago
Yoah
that for example, was a very childish comment
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
It's because most of the UPSB here are young persons from the USA, who don't have a long-lived interest in hobbies. The
bigger countries where pen spinning is advertised more and more have their own boards. As it's more known there, there are
more spinners who actually have the will to cling to pen spinning. Look at many active [b]spinners[/b] who make videos are on
UPSB. Most of the collabs are from other boards and stuff. =/
A minute ago
Icepray
(A minute ago) Yoah -- you dont need to read a lot.. / Sorry I disagree I don't like when people do something for 5minutes
and say they've seen it all
A minute ago
Tim
Shoutbox is a good feature :P
A minute ago
blank
how was upsb v2 bad
A minute ago
Icepray
this is fun to read :P
A minute ago
Thewave
I think it's just the advancement of PS'ing in general that makes you feel like they are mostly average while they do vary
amongst many levels.
A minute ago
Mats
Hmm. depends how late you go I guess, late late UPSB V2 was bad, real bad.
A minute ago
blank
UGH MY BRAIN HURTS
A minute ago
Yoah
you dont need to read a lot..
A minute ago
Tim
Nobody noticed that he just left for ten minutes lol
A minute ago
Sfsr
Yoah; I thought you were not active here? How can you know about the atmosphere then?
A minute ago
Mats
Erirornal, I agree that this board is fantastic, the ladder system, wiki etc is all wonderful. It's just the general level of
PSing and sometimes, some members and how they are on the forums.
A minute ago
Tim
I've got an awesome idea. Someone should link to the actual thread in question!
A minute ago
Zombo
you have no factual evidence that shows that UPSB2 late = UPSB3 now
A minute ago
Sfsr
Yeah I know;P But it's crazy really, I can't imagine people here behaving like that
A minute ago
Zombo
sorry mats, you're way wrong, you're talking very subjectively here
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
Oh yeah, I do remember that, Zombo...
A minute ago
Mats
Ahahaha that thread is so funny
A minute ago
Sfsr
I mean, you don't have that here anymore
6 minutes ago
pen_MAKer
wtf?o.o(sorry for that)
6 minutes ago
Zombo
also Mats, I believe you're also suffereing from nostalgia
A minute ago
Zombo
where the index page wouldn't even appear
A minute ago
Zombo
we had technical issues
A minute ago
Zombo
ppl started going OT in every thraed
A minute ago
Tim
Mats. PDS has thousands and thousands of spinners. You mostly know the names of the really good ones. I'd imagine that's not
thousands.
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
We didn't have Ladder system in UPSBv2, we didn't have the Videos section in UPSB [integrated], we didn't have a Wiki [but
then again, no one looks in it, it seems].
A minute ago
Zombo
no.
A minute ago
Zombo
we had like a million threads in the fundamentals sections because newcomers always ask the same questions on fundies because
there was no decent tutorial
A minute ago
Mats
Weren't you admin at this time Zombo?
A minute ago
Sfsr
The link to the thread in Tyalis sig -> http://www.pentrix.com/upsb2/viewtopic.php?t=3104
A minute ago
Yoah
i asked that question a lot of times eriror
A minute ago
Zombo
OT had to be shut down, and ppl start posting off-topic threads in Other manips section
A minute ago
Mats
What link? sorry I was updating scores...
A minute ago
Zombo
UPSB2 late days had frequent spam/porn attacks, there was no real modeartion cuz kam was the only admin with ban power so it
was slow to react
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
Instead of complaining about how the past was better, why aren't we actually trying to chance the current stance of UPSB and
improve it to better ways?
A minute ago
blank
mats, why -52?
A minute ago
Mats
Hmm. It does seem that spinners are getting to a good level fast these days, but hardly any of them are pushing to a great
level, at least on UPSB. UPSB is full of average spinners with only a few very good ones.
A minute ago
Sfsr
Mats, did you read the link I posted?
A minute ago
Zombo
not really
2 minutes ago
blank
i agree with sfsr
A minute ago
Tim
*comment*
A minute ago
Sfsr
Conservatism leads us nowhere in penspinning
A minute ago
Zombo
because from what I remember, UPSB2 in its late days was pretty bad
A minute ago
Tim
There is more pressure on new spinners to get good faster.
A minute ago
pen_MAKer
wtf?o.o(sorry for that)
A minute ago
Thewave
The fact that not everyone replies to a combo or not everyone can compose a reply worthy of you to call it a good one doesn't
mean the board level is down compared to others
A minute ago
pen_MAKer
LOL eriror
A minute ago
Eso
Sometimes I confuse nostalgia with reality too.
A minute ago
pen_MAKer
LOL eriror
minute ago
blank
wow
A minute ago
Zombo
that's not a problem of quality imo but a problem of quantity. PS is now bigger, therefoer there is a lot more content
released, we are exposed to more and therefore less impresed.
A minute ago
Tim
Back then Penspinning was different though.
2 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
Generally good. People were applauding combos of which the hardest tricks was a Shadow 12-12.
A minute ago
thnikk
hai guys im back :)
A minute ago
Sfsr
"fallen behind every other forum in the world in penspinning skill", since UPSB used to be the world of penspinning, now
people have their own boards instead
A minute ago
Tim
Yeah, I probably will, I'm going to bed after this though. Someone may beat me to it.
A minute ago
Mats
Comments on UPSB were, but at least the combos were generally good and there were more people out there capable of putting
together a post with a real and interesting paragraph in.
A minute ago
Eso
I think I saw a lot of spam on UPSB v2. I used to visit there a lot.
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
Yeah, they were. GPC comments aren't any better, FPSB comments are the same.
A minute ago
Sfsr
Less thought in posts? I think not -> http://www.pentrix.com/upsb2/viewtopic.php?t=3104
A minute ago
Zombo
"i like the music,was my favourite"
A minute ago
Mats
Tim, just post the topic yourself?
A minute ago
pen_MAKer
Yoah
A minute ago
Zombo
mats... comments on UPSB2 were like that too
A minute ago
Yoah
sfsr
A minute ago
Tim
I can see that this is going to make a fairly good topic, so I saved the pages with the shoutbox comments to my hard drive.
Any one need em, PM me
A minute ago
Yoah
how the heck could i even do that
A minute ago
Mats
Yoah is saying UPSB is exactly what it is, and that is , not as good as the old UPSB. Less thought goes into posts, less
thought goes into combos and we have fallen behind almost every other forum in the world in our pen spinning skill.
A minute ago
Sfsr
Yoah jsut likes to complain about change instead of embracing it : )
A minute ago
Yoah
and thats why im not here very often. although i have ideas of better boards
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
If he were, he wouldn't be here now.
A minute ago
Zombo
well i mean... im not sure why that bothers you... you dont have to read the comments you know
A minute ago
blank
i havent been paying attention a whole lot. is yoah saying upsb is gay or something like that>
A minute ago
Erirornal Kraione
And yeah, LordBojo owns me so hard, I know. =/
A minute ago
Tim
lol
A minute ago
Yoah
80% is pretty close to complete isnt it
2 minutes ago
Mats
Yeah WTF? -12, that sucks. And mmm Tim can have 5 points for being funny :)
2 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
So because 80% of the comments aren't special, you generalise the whole UPSB.
2 minutes ago
blank
WTF MATS?!?
2 minutes ago
Tim
Lord Bojo's combo against you was really good Eriror
2 minutes ago
Yoah
im not saying it has to be deeply analized, im just saying theres nothing special in like 80% of collab comments
3 minutes ago
blank
mats do u think i should really be -11??
3 minutes ago
pen_MAKer
darn...
3 minutes ago
Tim
lol
3 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
Pen_MAKer, MSN is not working.
3 minutes ago
Eso
All I'm going to say is that the only "old school" combo that's ever caught my attention as being "original" was pentrixter's
solo.
3 minutes ago
Mats
brovo? -12...
3 minutes ago
Tim
I would sleep, but this is too interesting. Cya WhiteFang
3 minutes ago
blank
:clap: brovo zombo
3 minutes ago
Zombo
you have to realize that...
3 minutes ago
Zombo
they're not gonna give a paragraph with detailed analysis of every combo...
3 minutes ago
pen_MAKer
hey eriror...why aren't you on msn?o.O
3 minutes ago
WhiteFang
cyazz
4 minutes ago
Zombo
the public is not a pro judge...
4 minutes ago
Nam Dang
someone can explain me ??? I don't understand what you say ??
4 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
Hey, that was my post.
4 minutes ago
Tim
Trust me, he will know you're angry if you enable them.
4 minutes ago
Yoah
its the same combos of almost every collab
4 minutes ago
Zombo
"Really nice collab, great styles, Fratleym, DaThroat, MaKin. But I really am enjoying Zasso's style recently. Just a style
of his own, with a lot of really nice linkages. Just WOW." that's not an opinion?
4 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
go play TTF or something...
4 minutes ago
Yoah
"i like the music" - "combos are nice" "he's the best"
5 minutes ago
Mats
Well blank, that's what you get for being a phailure...
5 minutes ago
Tim
[color=red]Test[/color]
5 minutes ago
Zombo
"dathroat is the best " that's not an opinion?
5 minutes ago
WhiteFang
Eriror, are you leaving?
5 minutes ago
Zombo
"Nice My favorite was River_k =)" that's not an opnion?
5 minutes ago
Zombo
"nice collab ...i like the music..mankin,frat,toro are the best ..." that's not an opnion?
5 minutes ago
Zombo
"sekiyu and the person himself hokkair0 combos are nice.!" that's not an opinion?
5 minutes ago
Tim
lol
5 minutes ago
Nam Dang
????
5 minutes ago
blank
god damn.... im still -11 on scores in mats game.....
5 minutes ago
Yoah
i dont consider "cool" an opinion if it isnt detailed
6 minutes ago
Eso
lol
6 minutes ago
Tim
I don't watch many collabs any more. Most of them are much of the same. I only really watch them if there is an interesting
or good theme. Or something like that. Not that anyone cares biggrin.gif
6 minutes ago
Yoah
they dont have an opinion
6 minutes ago
Zombo
so if you want ppl to respect your opinion, why did you not respect others' opinion first?
6 minutes ago
Yoah
ppl answers like bots
6 minutes ago
Yoah
unlike anyone else
6 minutes ago
Mats
Then I complain about a combo once in a while and everyone flames me for it... * sigh *
7 minutes ago
Yoah
sure, and i told my opinion bout them
7 minutes ago
Mats
If he thinks UPSB is fake, why can't he say? I mean I have to agree with him, everytime there is a collab most UPSBers are
saying 'great' 'good' 'awesome' and nothing else dry.gif
7 minutes ago
Zombo
and doont take comments on minor collabs too seriously, ppl usually just state which combos they think were good
8 minutes ago
Tim
:P
8 minutes ago
Zombo
it's OK to say you don't like the collab, but you can't say UPSB is fake
8 minutes ago
Tim
btw Zombo, you should show Yoah your anger by enabling color bbcodes in the shoutbox.
8 minutes ago
Zombo
i dunno, i think you came a little too aggressive there yoah
8 minutes ago
Mats
Bai bai Tim *waves*
9 minutes ago
LotusWing
bye Tim
9 minutes ago
Tim
I would listen to the radio, but I've gotta go. :bye: UPSB
9 minutes ago
Yoah
beside THAT, i told my honest opinion, and appearently upsb isnt used to critism
9 minutes ago
Nam Dang
do you quarrel together??? I don't understand
10 minutes ago
Tim
Hmm, Maybe no topic, Yoahs last post was about Nate.
10 minutes ago
Yoah
i said it was fake becuase no one made any comments but " that was great " and " cool "
11 minutes ago
Zombo
well you say UPSB was fake because there was nothing interesting in a JEB collab...which makes no sense
11 minutes ago
Tim
Which Collab?
11 minutes ago
Eso
lol if i saw zombo he could cure me lolol
12 minutes ago
popnfresh930
on the back of the necks?
12 minutes ago
Mats
Hey & Zombo say outta my threads bitch!!!
12 minutes ago
Yoah
i never said it was a upsb collab
12 minutes ago
Mats
Eso, put some cream on it! wink.gif
12 minutes ago
Zombo
yeah, unfortunately, that collab was from JEB not UPSB...
12 minutes ago
Mats
How, how did you do that Eso??
12 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
"Reading UPSB: I see dumb people"
12 minutes ago
Tim
I'll side with the Mexicans
13 minutes ago
Yoah
told them my opinion of the collab
13 minutes ago
Eso
omg 8 bug bites on my neck. Not cool
13 minutes ago
blank
what did he do zombo?
13 minutes ago
Icepray
lol
14 minutes ago
Zombo
lol its only because yoah bashed that japanese collab before
14 minutes ago
Nam Dang
why do you shut up?
14 minutes ago
Yoah
thats because i dont consider myself a part of upsb
15 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
I'll shut up, sorry.
15 minutes ago
popnfresh930
??
15 minutes ago
thumbskiller
hey eriror 5 days only!!!!
15 minutes ago
Tim
wait, what?
15 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
About how you seem to complain about UPSB but aren't trying to actually improve it.
15 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
Naw. >_> I was just stating what I've heard of people.
15 minutes ago
Mats
Ok now all the cool people on USPB are here!
16 minutes ago
Yoah
ops, did i do something wrong?
16 minutes ago
blank
stop trying to spam. spamming is an ancient art the only some people can master =P
16 minutes ago
Mats
wow, Marc, Eric, Yoah, me... Most of the cool people on UPSB all in the shoutbox at the same time!! :)
16 minutes ago
popnfresh930
everyone*
16 minutes ago
popnfresh930
see every spams
16 minutes ago
Nam Dang
ack
16 minutes ago
Yoah
holyshitholyshitholyshitholyshitholyshitholyshitholyshitholyshitholyshitholyshit
holyshitholyshitholyshitholyshitholyshit
16 minutes ago
popnfresh930
what does that even mean?
16 minutes ago
Eso
bug bites ftl
17 minutes ago
blank
:boing:
17 minutes ago
Mats
Rightly so...
17 minutes ago
blank
lol
17 minutes ago
minche
:boing:
17 minutes ago
LotusWing
lol
17 minutes ago
Erirornal Kraione
He just complains. :ssst:
17 minutes ago
blank
not really. me jc and xero are usually the spammrs
17 minutes ago
Mats
Naw man, I've never seen Yoah spam.
18 minutes ago
popnfresh930
everyone spams
19 minutes ago
minche
yah, noticed that, thats why -.- is there
19 minutes ago
Mats
Well minche you're already kinda a spammer.
19 minutes ago
Fripi
OMGOMGOMG
19 minutes ago
popnfresh930
was just wondering
21 minutes ago
minche
yeh, it goes crazy every once in a while. don't worry about it, it will be just fine
22 minutes ago
Mats
:lol:
22 minutes ago
blank
holy crap
22 minutes ago
popnfresh930
does it do that for some reason?
22 minutes ago
minche
yes,
23 minutes ago
popnfresh930
did the shout box clear?
23 minutes ago
minche
buuu
23 minutes ago
Mats
Thought I would since everyone else is doing it :P
24 minutes ago
Mats
null
Feel free to discuss. Well done if you actually read through the whole thing. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 09:49:51
My argument here was really about the competive spinners on UPSB. When it comes to tournaments, UPSB is going to really struggle to make an impression because I think (most of) the competive pen spinners on UPSB don't put in the same effort as the competive spinners on JEB/KPSA/FPSB etc... I mean some do, ChauTran and Erirornal are two names that come to mind that are really up there, but I see so many really good beginner pen spinners come up that show real promise, but then they seem to hit a point at which there improvement stops or slows down a lot. It would be nice if some people would put in some hard work and push to higher levels.
Also, people here:
Don't read the wiki enough.
Sometimes don't put enough thought into serious posts.
Make boring comments on videos. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 12:12:06
Those three last points occur just as much on other penspinningboards (though look on the board for info instead of reading the wiki).
-
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 12:24:06
Okay I read through the whole thing and what I concluded is...nam dang is totally clueless...
Seriousness:
Okay I feel that even if UPSB lacks the pro spinners of the other boards, it has the friendliness to make up for it. And if the comments are too general, thats mostly made up of the newer members who are not good enough to analyse a combo in detail. Heck, not many of them read the wiki even. -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 14:03:48
Please don't tell me that i'm the only one who started reading this from top to bottom..
Anyways.. ALOT have been said in that 10~15 minutes. i don't know why people are constantly complaining about how great UPSBv2 was. i was never around to see what v2 was like..but I can guarantee you that in couple of years time, people will be like "i wish upsb could go back to the way upsbv3 was.. UPSBv4 just isn't the same" -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 15:44:59
exactly whitefang, old veterans experience "nostalgia", where they tend to remember ONLY the good things from past memories.
Old UPSB2 veterans will say UPSB2 was better, UCPSB veterans will say UCPSB was better, etc.
The truth is, they forgot about the bad stuff that happened, the reasons why we had to change board in the first place. This is what nostalgia is. Ppl become emotional when they talk about the past.
I also believe that their enjoyment of a board is mixed with their personal PSing experience. When they were younger, they were learning everything and still discovering many aspects of PS. That curiosity has heightened their enjoyment of the board. Now, maybe they have less things to look forward to because they've already accomplished a lot so they feel less on the new board.
The other point is about people commenting on videos and not putting enough effort in their comments. I think that's a fair argument because it's not very interesting to always see people repeating the same thing but this one is going to take a lot of effort to rectify. As I see it, when people post comments, the most important thing is to show approval or disapproval. It's very important for the person who made the collab to have a lot of those type of comments because they have a better idea of how good their collab is. It's like making an invisible poll "Do you like this collab? Yes///No" for every collab. In that sense comments on collabs are more like "youtube comments".
Another point brought up was the idea that UPSB doesn't have strong spinners. The refutation for this argument is that UPSB2 was a central point for many countries. Now that people have divided into their own community, UPSB is logically not as strong. The other idea is that it really doesn't matter if UPSB is strong or not, as long as there are strong spinners in the world we can enjoy. I mean isn't that what we're looking for? To be united by pen spinning? bonkura has fans through the world, even though he was from JEB. It doesn't matter really where the spinners come from.
The only place where it does matter is in team competitions. That should only give us more motivation to train harder to beat the "giants". -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 20:48:32
hmm
there is already ECS board, and WCS board.
UPSB is a board for PSers who don't have their "national" board (and americans, canadians, australians
)
and what Zombo said, we are here to enjoy great PSing :>
but the problem is that we aren't actually united. sure, we see their collabs, and some battles here, but it's just not it. most of the members on UPSB rarely checks other boards, mainly because of the language barrier :/ -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 20:51:39QUOTE (minche @ Jul 21 2008, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>hmm
there is already ECS board, and WCS board.
UPSB is a board for PSers who don't have their "national" board (and americans, canadians, australians )
and what Zombo said, we are here to enjoy great PSing :>
but the problem is that we aren't actually united. sure, we see their collabs, and some battles here, but it's just not it. most of the members on UPSB rarely checks other boards, mainly because of the language barrier :/
uhhhh you cant really fault someone for not going to a board they don't undertsand... -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 20:53:25
i don't fault anybody
it is just the reason we arent really united, but have certain members that will update us on happenings on other boards :> -
Date: Mon, Jul 21 2008 22:18:48
I read about 80% of that actually. It was interesting enough and I'd have to agree with Zombo on everything. He makes solid good points.
People are only thinking of the positive aspects of the past and the negative aspects of the present and not at all of the future. We have a lot of good, young, rising spinners. And, pen spinning is oh so much more popular in other countries than it is in North America. But you can tell that the pen spinning fever is on the rise in North America as more and more new pen spinners pop up with potential -- lots of it. Companies such as Spinz think pen spinning's gonna make it big in the US. I think so too. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 04:01:58
UPSB did contain thoughtful posts perhaps until the end of 2004 and this is what made the forum interesting for a while. But during 2005 the board suffered from errors, viruses, and most prominently, spam. Despite the concerted effort of many old-timers to spur the moderators into preventive action there is only so much a severely understaffed moderation team can do. Believe it or not, UPSB was once the pinnacle of the online pen spinning world. There were battles and collaborations and virtually everyone was excited about our progress. This is not nostalgia but undeniable fact.
But UPSB's closure and UCPSB's subsequent inauguration resulted in a shift of the membership from older experienced spinners to younger neophytes lacking guidance. At the time PDS was continually releasing pen modifications and PS videos that piqued the curiosity of uninformed spinners. What ensued was a proliferation of Korean-like collaborations employing related pens. It was as if UCPSB had been converted into an English-speaking PDS. But those absent during UPSB did not experience its successes and had no motivation to feel loyalty to the English-speaking PS community. Almost everyone at UCPSB was focused on showcasing their feats rather than advancing PS as a whole. However, one element that did persist from (late) UPSB was heavy spamming in the forum. Again, I believe this arose from the fact that members did not feel a sufficient degree of loyalty that inspired them to make worthwhile contributions.
So when UPSB was re-opened, it carried on not from the former UPSB but from UCPSB. Right now I would consider this forum as lying roughly halfway between the two but tending a bit more toward UCPSB. Hopefully we can regain some of our respect and presence on the world stage but it first requires a major paradigm shift within our own forum. In other words, people have to decide that sacrificing some personal interest and time for the betterment of the community is important; more important than the enjoyment UPSB can personally provide you with through spamming or whatever else. I'm not sure how many people would be brave enough to take this leap of faith, especially those who were not present during a UPSB that once flourished, but believe me when I say the satisfaction of seeing your community succeed through diligent work is unparalleled. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 04:32:29QUOTEUPSB did contain thoughtful posts perhaps until the end of 2004 and this is what made the forum interesting for a while.
UPSB always had its fair share of "newbs" asking the same questions on the same 4 tricks over and over again due to the lack of definitive material. I'm really happy this is not the case anymore (if you don't believe me, look at the number of posts in the Fundamentals section of UPSB2). Many threads like "How did you start PSing" were repeated over and over again due to the lack of organization on the board. I found the most thoughtful posts to be the ones in the X-Zone, but I believe the glory days of the X-Zone was during the Pentix days, where people like nhk_9 took the time to really discuss what they were doing. On UPSB, the X-Zone's trademark thread "What we are working on" dropped in activity considerably. One of the reason why, I think, was because of the popularization of the Internet and the ease of access of cameras made it simpler for people to simply express themselves through images and videos, rather than text. Furthermore, This might be why actual post content decreased and media went up. I think it's quite clear that people in the past had to go through the trouble of writing long, detailed explanations of tricks because they didn't have a camera. I think you would agree that video reference is better than text. This, IMO, accounts for a lot of the thoughtful posts we had.
Another thing, related to video comments. There were a LOT less collabs back on UPSB2 than now. People didn't have a lot to chew on, so they chewed on it long and hard. We dissected every second of kam's SuperhandZ video, we broke down almost everything on the UPSB+PDS. With the rise of technology, there is a lot more videos now, it's impossible to devote the same time to each of them. The breakdown team is working on a collab right now and it's taking them months to analyze a single video (This is not an attempt to bash the breakdown team, but rather an example of the time it took us on UPSB2 to examine a collab).
If you want to know how few collabs there were back in the days, look at this:
Spoiler:
That's it. the list of every single video project known to UPSB until May 2005...
That's a bit more than 20 videos... from the beginning of Pentix all the way to mid-2005, and a lot of those videos actually came after UPSB+PDS (this list is not ordered chronologically btw). So there was a veritable explosion of media which led to reduced post quality, more video material and also less effort commenting on videos.QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 22 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There were battles and collaborations and virtually everyone was excited about our progress. This is not nostalgia but undeniable fact.
I'm not sure I agree, perhaps you were at the time in a certain context which made you feel that way, but may I remind you that only a small fraction of the people were interested in the battles. Polls rarely exceeded 15-20 votes and battles often had only 2-3 participants only. Yes there was a subset of people who liked the battles and had the mindset of putting something innovative in each combo, but it was only a subset of the entire population. Collaborations were nice, but I don't think many of them had revolutionary content in them. They were mostly focused on celebrating a theme or an event, (Chrismas collab, Asian presentation, etc.) May I remind you that the only real ground-breaking effort was "Evolution", originally intended to be a collab, but ended up being a one-man project because of the lack of participation. And of course the UPSB+PDS, which was carefully planned. UPSB never released another official collab other than that one. I believe it's still possible today to carefully plan a collab to be innovative. Le0n's presentation a few months ago blew me away and it was about at the same level as "Evolution" in terms of innovation, showing it can still be done.QUOTEBut UPSB's closure and UCPSB's subsequent inauguration resulted in a shift of the membership from older experienced spinners to younger neophytes lacking guidance. At the time PDS was continually releasing pen modifications and PS videos that piqued the curiosity of uninformed spinners. What ensued was a proliferation of Korean-like collaborations employing related pens. It was as if UCPSB had been converted into an English-speaking PDS.
First of all, PDS alraedy had a big influence on UPSB2, long before UCPSB was released. If you look at videos from the later days of UPSB2, it should be quite clear. But I agree that the closure of UPSB had a huge impact. Many good members from UPSB simply left PSing afterwards and I don't think they will ever come back even if they knew UPSB3 is open, simply because they've been out of touch. Had UPSB2 stayed open long enough for UPSB3 to see the light, I think some of those members would still be present with us today and things might be different.QUOTEBut those absent during UPSB did not experience its successes and had no motivation to feel loyalty to the English-speaking PS community. Almost everyone at UCPSB was focused on showcasing their feats rather than advancing PS as a whole. However, one element that did persist from (late) UPSB was heavy spamming in the forum. Again, I believe this arose from the fact that members did not feel a sufficient degree of loyalty that inspired them to make worthwhile contributions.
I'm not sure what you mean by loyalty, seems like you mean the "pen spinning community" as a whole. Anyway, I think it was already obvious in UPSB2 that this new "self-centered" trend was going to occur, regardless whether it opened or closed. I think the opening of UCPSB gave you a wake-up call and made you realized how far we've come from. But the truth is, with the introduction of battles on UPSB2, people were already starting to keep their tricks secret so they could use it for the next big battle. Furthermore, you'll see that many noteworthy videos on UPSB2 were member showcase, such as Domination (mwahaha), Impulse (kaisen), Evolution (Phya). People already started to build their reputation.QUOTESo when UPSB was re-opened, it carried on not from the former UPSB but from UCPSB. Right now I would consider this forum as lying roughly halfway between the two but tending a bit more toward UCPSB. Hopefully we can regain some of our respect and presence on the world stage but it first requires a major paradigm shift within our own forum. In other words, people have to decide that sacrificing some personal interest and time for the betterment of the community is important; more important than the enjoyment UPSB can personally provide you with through spamming or whatever else. I'm not sure how many people would be brave enough to take this leap of faith, especially those who were not present during a UPSB that once flourished, but believe me when I say the satisfaction of seeing your community succeed through diligent work is unparalleled.
My final conclusion is that regardless of whether UCPSB opened or not, if UPSB2 had continued to persist to today, we would still be roughly where we are actually. The trends you mention were already occuring in UPSB2 and the fall of UPSB2 might have been a catalyst. But I think the trend was inevitable and if anything, it might be because of UCPSB that we are now more aware of the situation. Also I don't think it's possible to regain our almost ubiquitous world presence because back then there were only two major communities (PDS, UPSB). Instead, I think old-timers should reconsider and re-adjust their way of thinking.
We now have to deal with the fact that pen spinning have become localized. We have to deal with the fact that execution, showmanship is the dominant factor in pen spinning. We have to deal with people who hold self-interest and reputation more importantly than common knowledge. I think the old-fashioned way of thinking simply does not apply anymore. Personally, I think pen-spinning wise we are miles beyond what we have before. The quality of the spinning has become tremendous. Even videos from 2 years ago feel clumsy compared to now.
What was good however from the old UPSB thinking was the drive to think outside the box and not be satisfied with the current concepts. Since the fall of UPSB2, we've improved the performance aspect of PSing a lot, and I do feel that we're almost ready to move on and go back to some of that old thinking we had. We're ready to add new concepts in our combos, try new things. However, we have to do it in a smart way. It's useless to force people in doing something they don't like. You have to show them what's beyond and make them willigly embrace it. You put the ideas on the table, you ask "performance" spinners to try them out, try and smoothen them out and fit them in combos. If it works, you might just have popularized a new concept/trick. This has happened a few times in the past years (triangle spin, busts, handaround, aerial finishers etc.) and I feel it will happen more and more often as spinners are now somehow even on the technical side and need an extra edge to differentiate themselves. We should raise awareness of the public of innovations in PS.
This might be quite a different way to go about, but I think it's the surest way to do it.
PS: Another thing you seem to be forgetting: the size of the board! Clearly UPSB has many more members today than on UPSB2. Now you might recall that UPSB2 was also very popular in its late days, but that was exactly when spamming became a major concern! I think this is a definitive reason why things have changed. PS used to be an esoteric art and only the truly motivated spinners came online to search knowledge and discuss it. Those are the pioneers, the ones who think expansively. But now that it became more popular, a wider variety people have joined, and not all have this same mentality, this same drive or passion. It would be presposterous to think that you can expect the same thing from every member! I am quite sure we also have, now, members who are deeply passionate about PSing and willing to advance the Art, but it's not the majority anymore so it looks as if there was nobody out there willing to innovate. Can we really control the size of our community? Should we really deter people from joining UPSB?
PPS: Another thing, although that might sound a bit a stupid, is that old-timers who have been out of the loop for a while or stopped watching videos have lost their "eye", or their affinity for watching combos. With combos being faster than before, innovations, even if present, are less apparent because they occur in a split second. To the trained eye, they are noticeable and definitely more appreciated. I sometimes get the feeling that some old-timers watch a video, see the pen spinning really fast and smooth, and disregard it completely. Had they properly "trained" their eyes to follow every movement of the pen, they might have seen more. This has happened to me too and I still have trouble sometimes correctly differentiating every hybrid in "tricky" sequences. Also, they could simply be biased and disregard anything that looks remotely "fast". It might be a case where old veterans are not skilled enough to watch videos anymore, just like a newcomer watching skateboard cannot tell the difference between most tricks. Old-school spinners should get used to watching videos to get the hang of it. This, like many other things in PSing, requires dedication and practice. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 05:07:26
whitefang, lol zombo's "you have to realize that..." confused me and i started reading it top to bottom. i ended up reading it twice
um... the thing is, i have no idea how the other boards really are, but the number of higher quality videos they have do seem to surpass us. All this stuff about noobs and not reading the wiki... again, i have no idea how the other boards are
i have a personal ambition to be something special in this penspinning world -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 06:35:19
I just want to say that it's not fair for ANYONE to belittle the entirety of UPSB just because of a few comments. If you want seriousness, there are definitely serious members in UPSB. And besides, it's not like the collective of non-serious members is trying to make UPSB look bad intentionally anyways.
I wanted to say something about the whole nostalgia bit but Zombo pretty much hit all the points. I think I have a more objective point of view since I was not part of the community during its heyday, but I did visit it for a good while even after it closed. All of what Zombo has described, I have seen with my own eyes.
Now, I personally would like to see what would have happened had UPSB v2 stayed open long enough to witness the changing trends in pen spinning and their adaptation to it all. However, we can't turn back time. There's no use in arguing over what could have been or what you may think should have been. The fact remains that UPSB v3 is here. If you don't like the way the trends and tides are moving now, I suggest you try taking a stab at shifting the winds. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 12:31:08
you can't find any forum/board that has no spam. there are always people posting comments like "wow", "great and such. but i'm sure those people will recognize themselves here, and if enough members shows that they don't like those posts, and don't appreciate those members because of that, they will surely stop posting comments like that. 'cause post count is nothing if other members don't respect you. and who can blame then for spamming to get 20 posts so they can vote in polls?! i mean, that's just 20 posts, they post couple of comments in show off your pens, general discussion, and that's it.
the only problem is that there isn't enough c/c on this board, imho. most of the comments for pens, and combos (battles, collabs) are "positive" (that's not a bad thing, but if they mention something "bad" those are mostly comments like "improve your smoothnes" and "needs more creativity" S:, like that PSer doesn't know that by himself). dunno, i don't check battlezone and pen modifications section often, but when i do comments are mostly like that (there are some good cooments of course).
so, yeah, i hope you understand what i mean to say -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 15:07:27
not this stuff again..
Times have changed peeps. It is like saying the world would be better if guns were never invented.
Would it be better? Who knows?
However, guns WERE invented, and has shaped the world to how it is now. Whether you like it or not, it is not going to be like when guns didn't exist.
UPSBv2 had a lot more development, and I could imagine that being an exciting environment to be in, but things like that are just not going to happen anymore, especially with the amount of "average" skilled spinners on this board. (Average on a global scale, which is pretty darn close to god of ps back in UPSBv2 times) -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 20:49:23
I was actually referring to the lack of thoughtful discussion in sub-forums other than 'Fundamentals' compared to UPSB2. For example, are people legitimately concerned about this community? How about the direction of pen spinning? Excluding this topic, I see almost no serious threads here that indicate people would care about either. I'm not interested in debating the past either. The self-promotion trend in pen spinning has been going on for years now. I'm a firm advocate that one should add to the community as much as one takes away from it. The members you mention each made significant contributions in their own ways, if only through posting. They were not people who shamelessly promoted themselves in threads only to disappear before releasing something else. The irony in all this is that people tend to make their most thought-out posts when their ideas are being challenged. If we could capture this inspiration and apply it to the rest of the forum it would be a brilliant place.
So, I feel the mindsets of UPSB2 and UPSB3 are irreconcilable. One wants to push the boundaries of our knowledge while the other is content with recycling material indefinitely. Tell me how exactly you think it's possible to get others to think outside the box when they can't even think enough to make non-mechanical posts. I've seen people take keen observations posted by others and reply with "I agree" or reiterate it without adding anything of their own. And I'm supposed to believe these same people would be inspired by new material to think innovatively? Yes it would be unrealistic to expect this much from a newcomer, but the board does not consist entirely of new people.
Finally, with Yoah, if you consider "this video is interesting/good/awesome/etc." without justification to constitute a valid opinion of videos, then you can't say "this video is boring/bad/pitiful/etc." is not an opinion.
P.S. For those who still think PS is only about their own performance of the art, why don't we go ahead and delete the Wiki, Eso's tutorials and the RD? If everyone felt committed solely to his or her own interests, we wouldn't have these and numerous other resources. -
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 22:45:34QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 22 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I was actually referring to the lack of thoughtful discussion in sub-forums other than 'Fundamentals' compared to UPSB2. For example, are people legitimately concerned about this community? How about the direction of pen spinning? Excluding this topic, I see almost no serious threads here that indicate people would care about either. I'm not interested in debating the past either. The self-promotion trend in pen spinning has been going on for years now. I'm a firm advocate that one should add to the community as much as one takes away from it. The members you mention each made significant contributions in their own ways, if only through posting. They were not people who shamelessly promoted themselves in threads only to disappear before releasing something else. The irony in all this is that people tend to make their most thought-out posts when their ideas are being challenged. If we could capture this inspiration and apply it to the rest of the forum it would be a brilliant place.
Let's go in details then. From what I remember, the big achievement, pen spinning wise, on UPSB2 was the development of the backaround family (baktap, bakriser, neobak, etc.) That one was a collaborative effort between Weis and nhk_9 which happened on UPSB2. The rest actually happened outside of UPSB via single person projects. For instance, kam releasing his own videos, moogoogaipan had his own website and rarely posted on UPSB2, likewise tohlz. There was also the trick of the month, which was great for a while but we quickly ran out of steam. My own work on basketball spin and counters were largely ignored until I posted clear videos of them (this demonstrates that video examples are more important than well-though textual descriptions). Other than, it's pretty much like here: ppl posting tricks they think are new, but are not. We still get a fair amount of those threads here at the Trick Hall. People are still willing to share, it's just that a lot of the stuff are invented or classified as hybrid.
Plus you can't really say people who liked to battle had the right priorities. They were motivated to find new ideas so they could show off at the next battle and win it.
Furthermore, there are lots of people on UPSB3 who care about the community. For example, you can't say a guy like Eso doesn't care for the community when he donates his own resources to give everybody a pen.
There are some members out there who only come here to post new videos, but those are usually foreigners who want to share new videos from their community. There's nothing wrong with that, CLUBMA used to do the same. We need people like that too, coming here promoting their work so that we are aware of the situation across the world.QUOTESo, I feel the mindsets of UPSB2 and UPSB3 are irreconcilable. One wants to push the boundaries of our knowledge while the other is content with recycling material indefinitely. Tell me how exactly you think it's possible to get others to think outside the box when they can't even think enough to make non-mechanical posts. I've seen people take keen observations posted by others and reply with "I agree" or reiterate it without adding anything of their own. And I'm supposed to believe these same people would be inspired by new material to think innovatively? Yes it would be unrealistic to expect this much from a newcomer, but the board does not consist entirely of new people.
It all boils down to the size of the board. As I explained before, only a certain class of people were attracted to UPSB before, those were the people who could express themselves well and put their thoughts in text. Now that everybody have their camera, PS has become more accessible to another range of people, who may not express themselves very well through text but through videos. You can't say that someone who doesn't post well cannot spin well.QUOTEFinally, with Yoah, if you consider "this video is interesting/good/awesome/etc." without justification to constitute a valid opinion of videos, then you can't say "this video is boring/bad/pitiful/etc." is not an opinion.
Totally different! When you say a video is good, you show your approval. You're telling the person to keep up the good work, that s/he's doing the right thing/has the right idea. While it is not ideal, the pen spinner is recomforted in knowing that s/he has something good going. When you say a video is bad (w/o justification), it could first of all be an act of trolling (you can't troll by posting approval). If it's not trolling, you're also saying to the person "you're not going in the right direction, you need to change", but you're not telling what! This is the major difference: when you approve, the person does NOT need to necessarily change, so no justification is tolerable because the spinner can keep doing what s/he knows. When you disapprove, then change IS needed, but you're not saying what! Major difference.QUOTEP.S. For those who still think PS is only about their own performance of the art, why don't we go ahead and delete the Wiki, Eso's tutorials and the RD? If everyone felt committed solely to his or her own interests, we wouldn't have these and numerous other resources.
That makes no sense because even if a person intends to start pen spinning for its own performance only, the wiki is still a valuable ressource for getting started. It's helpful either way. We're doing this so that we don't have to see repeated posts over and over again about basic questions. So in a way you're helping yourself.
-
Date: Tue, Jul 22 2008 22:57:18
can someone sum up the arguements going on here? im getting very confused
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 00:13:07QUOTE (Shadowserpant @ Jul 22 2008, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>can someone sum up the arguements going on here? im getting very confused
Sounds to me like you are just too lazy to read what is being said. Or that you are reading it but kind of skimming over it and therefore not taking it in. The arguments are quite difficult to sum-up, I think you should go back and read them properly as they make perfect sense.QUOTEPlus you can't really say people who liked to battle had the right priorities. They were motivated to find new ideas so they could show off at the next battle and win it.
This I think is a major change. UPSB V2 - Creativity tended to win the day. now on UPSB V3 the emphasis is very strongly on smoothness. I think if this balance were to shift more towards an even balance rather than being one-sided it would be better for pen spinning as a whole. You perform a smooth combo once and that's it. You show a new idea in a combo and that new idea can be used by everyone else in many other combos. -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 00:16:56QUOTE (Mats @ Jul 22 2008, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This I think is a major change. UPSB V2 - Creativity tended to win the day. now on UPSB V3 the emphasis is very strongly on smoothness. I think if this balance were to shift more towards an even balance rather than being one-sided it would be better for pen spinning as a whole. You perform a smooth combo once and that's it. You show a new idea in a combo and that new idea can be used by everyone else in many other combos.
maybe. but still it would be using the trick for your own benefit right? we alraedy had a discussion about this in the Philosophy section. According to Tialys, it's not enough that you innovate, you must do it with the intention of benefiting the community (before your own interests).
and also ironically enough, other communities think the UPSB public us harsh on the creativity criteria and like to see new innovations in battles.
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 00:25:41QUOTE (Zombo @ Jul 23 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>maybe. but still it would be using the trick for your own benefit right? we alraedy had a discussion about this in the Philosophy section. According to Tialys, it's not enough that you innovate, you must do it with the intention of benefiting the community (before your own interests).
Yeah but who cares if it is in your own interest or not? If you do something in your own interest that ends up benefiting the whole community then it's the same effect than if you do out of interest for the community on the end. The only real effect is on your reputation. -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 00:28:19QUOTE (Mats @ Jul 22 2008, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yeah but who cares if it is in your own interest or not? If you do something in your own interest that ends up benefiting the whole community then it's the same effect than if you do out of interest for the community on the end. The only real effect is on your reputation.
well that's a bit my argument, by showing people how they can be innovative in their performance, you're kinda "tricking them" into benefiting the community indirectly. my argument also pointed out that this trend already existed in UPSB2, since that's exactly what they were doing to gain their edge in their battles. -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 04:15:04
My argument is that if people acted out of self-interest alone the forum would stagnate. I have no problem with self-interest but it should be tempered with the will to help the community. In the past, battling lay close to this balance since the community benefited through new information battles provided. However this is obviously not the case anymore. People also need to realize that contributing to the community will increase their reputation a lot faster than pumping out videos and mods. Eso and sketching for example don't battle or release solo videos yet they are greatly respected, and rightfully so. Again, I am not saying that these things are wrong, but only that there needs to be a balance.
As for post quality, I stand by what I said earlier. That is, if members cannot marshal their thoughts to make posts with content then it's hard to believe they can think innovatively, which is more difficult. The point I was trying to make with newcomers is that they are new to the PS world so it's unfair to hold them to this same standard. It has nothing to do with spinning ability but the initial overzealousness and lack of knowledge.
Concerning video commenting, I know that positive/negative criticisms without justification are completely different. I only maintain that they must be held equally valid under the current moderating treatment of opinions. They both add no information. Sure, a mere "good video" reassures the spinner, but it could also be posted by someone who didn't watch the video at all and wanted to increase his/her post count. Also, a video that receives no comments can also give the spinner the impression that nothing is wrong with the video (implied approval). Yes, a "bad video" may be trolling but it can also be telling the spinner to try harder. Just as "bad video" does not point out what parts of the video were bad, "good video" doesn't indicate what parts were good. -
Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 04:24:06
i read... im just having difficulty finding a core conflict here, so i'm finding it a little hard to argue
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 14:57:08
I think the main reason why UPSB changed so much was because of the amount of newcomers.
When a newcomer post a intellectual thing about PSing, people don't take it seriously. And sometimes other members don't like you for it. (Eg. Fresh. I think someone disliked her for the reason of her post...or not.) While anything said by well respected member is taken seriously and lesser people dislike you for it.
Imagine someone released their PS solo or their research article on UPSB. and just say zombo posted something like "i am very disappointed by your work. I don't think it is very good." How many people would be offended by Zombo's comment? IMO, hardly anyone would be offended by it. i think they will any take the criticism and try to improve it. even if people are offended by it, they wouldn't exactly do anything about it. BUT, imagine same thing happened except it was some newcomer who said "i am very disappointed....." I think the reaction of the person who released their vid/article will be VERY different. I would think that person will be angry and offended. Won't you agree? will you take criticisms from a newcomer and a well respected member in a same way?
If a newcomer just don't really care about the seriousness and use UPSB just for fun.. They will be flamed. While oldies don't. Lets take Teddy and Kensai for example. Almost every thread teddy made in Spammer's bin/Off topic made people flame him while noone really flamed Kensai (IIRC) when he made way more threads in SB that are more spammy. and..what a surprise.. Kensai is a old-timer while teddy was a newcomer.
When someone claims that they have invented a new trick, most of the time it gets locked or there is a heavy argument saying that its not a new trick. It is nearly impossible to create a 'new tricks' now. Because: one, alot of the tricks are already invented. Two, nearly everything can be written down in a hybrid form. back in UPSBv2, there were no hybrid breakdown system thing. (I think) So it was easier to 'invent' tricks. So maybe it just seemed like it was developing PS more.
It is impossible for the newcomers to be the way you want them to be. You need respect from other. To get the respect.. you need to be good at something such as penspinning, pen modding. Or just hang around upsb for a long time to be respected just for being an old-timer. You need couple of years to be truely considered as oldie so.. the easiest way is to achieve to be good at something. If your good at pens pinning, you need to film it to show other people that you a are good. Which is what kind of is happening right now.
Ofcourse those aren't the only ways of getting respect. There are other ways such as 'be super smart like Tialys.' But isn't making a video of your good psing the easiest way? I know not everyone do these for the respect, but i do believe people make videos for other people to acknowledge you in some way.
Its not that UPSBv3 is bad, its just it is. Noone can be blamed. newcomers don't really get the choice. Someone said that nowadays combos are just about speed + smoothness not creativity. That is because when newcomers learn someone. They will adapt a style of a person they think is better. and no offence, but the new Speed+smoothness style looks more 'beautiful' than the old school style. (well at least to non-spinners they are) But that does not mean old school style is not as good as the new styles. i'm pretty sure Einstein didn't know about the new discoveries in physics but that doesn't mean he was dummer than people in this generation. Without him, physics today will be very different. Same thing with pen spinning. The people from UPSBv2 (or foreigners at that time) are the mother of psing and theres no doubt about that. But you can't go complaining how shit v3 is now because its you guys who always were on UPSB, therefore it was kind of your responsibility to keep the forum the way you guys like it. Well..i'm going to try change upsb as much as possible to the way i like it.
mmmmmmmmmm...i forgot what i was getting to.. hahaha. but anyways.. sorry for long boring post that probably doesn't even make sense and have no point in it.
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Date: Wed, Jul 23 2008 15:37:09QUOTE (Tialys @ Jul 23 2008, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My argument is that if people acted out of self-interest alone the forum would stagnate. I have no problem with self-interest but it should be tempered with the will to help the community. In the past, battling lay close to this balance since the community benefited through new information battles provided. However this is obviously not the case anymore. People also need to realize that contributing to the community will increase their reputation a lot faster than pumping out videos and mods. Eso and sketching for example don't battle or release solo videos yet they are greatly respected, and rightfully so. Again, I am not saying that these things are wrong, but only that there needs to be a balance.
Like I said before, the size of the board has grown, we now attract different kinds of people, not just the truly motivated and well-spoken ones like our pioneers!QUOTEAs for post quality, I stand by what I said earlier. That is, if members cannot marshal their thoughts to make posts with content then it's hard to believe they can think innovatively, which is more difficult. The point I was trying to make with newcomers is that they are new to the PS world so it's unfair to hold them to this same standard. It has nothing to do with spinning ability but the initial overzealousness and lack of knowledge.
This is more of a heurestic, not a strong implication. pyralux is an amazing spinner who has great innovative skills but he chooses to use videos to show his ideas, same thing for TLDScorp. No offense, but those two don't make big textual posts, they use videos.QUOTESure, a mere "good video" reassures the spinner, but it could also be posted by someone who didn't watch the video at all and wanted to increase his/her post count.
That's probably your best argument. Well, we do delete "good video" comments when they're really short (like 2-3 words) but if they're slightly more fleshed out (pointing out which tricks they like/which spinner they like, which people usually do), it's alright.QUOTEAlso, a video that receives no comments can also give the spinner the impression that nothing is wrong with the video (implied approval).
No, if someone receives no comment it means nobody watched their video, which means they got ignored, which is not a good feeling.QUOTEYes, a "bad video" may be trolling but it can also be telling the spinner to try harder. Just as "bad video" does not point out what parts of the video were bad, "good video" doesn't indicate what parts were good.
It means the whole video was good, so the spinner can continue what he's doing. If you say bad video, you might want to say that the whole video is bad, however you can't really expect the person to change everything for the next video, so you should specify the most salient weaknesses.
@whitefang: I think that's true to some extent, but that's nothing really new... society works like that in general. You have to prove yourself. However, what's the point of gaining respect? IMO, you're not supposed to do things to gain respect, you gain respects BECAUSE you did something good. You want to show people good spinning, good modding, good ideas and BECAUSE of that you gained respect, not the other way around.
For example, I had no idea pyralux is just a few months ago but he shown us great ideas and he gained a lot of respect (from me anyway), but he's still a "new spinner" in the community (joined FPSB january 2008)